IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 20th August 2021, 12:10 PM   #1
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 32,433
Afghanistan -- would Trump have done differently?

Yeah, I know we didn't need another Afghanistan thread but anyhow....
Mostly for the forum Republicans: What do you think Trump would (or could) have done differently that would have produced a better outcome? Bearing in mind that he was boasting quite recently about ordering the US military withdrawal.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 12:13 PM   #2
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 52,845
He wold have mede the situation even worse.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 12:26 PM   #3
kevbo
Thinker
 
kevbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Rogue Valley, Oregon
Posts: 176
Trump would have walked away, and accepted no responsibility. Just like he did with the Kurds. He has no moral compass to guide him. At least Biden is trying to do something to help our allies.
kevbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 12:31 PM   #4
seayakin
Graduate Poster
 
seayakin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,325
He would have held up some attractive Afghan woman who he made sure got to America, put her before a camera, and say what a success it was. He would have ignored everyone left behind. He would have blamed Obama, the Democrats, and military for any US deaths and for leaving behind all the Afghans who worked for us.
__________________
"I kayak, therefore I am"
seayakin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 12:31 PM   #5
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 52,845
The actual withdrawal on the ground is a mess, and Biden has to take a lot of reponsilbity for that, but TRump's horrid deal handed Biden a poisoned chalice. Biden'smistake was in accepting the Trump deadline for withdrawal.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 01:00 PM   #6
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 4,815
Things we didn't need:

1) Another Afghanistan thread
2) Another Trump thread

I think he probably would have handled it better. Would have done things in the proper order, or at least mores than Biden. Would have communicated with other world leaders and not gone radio silence like Biden did.

Of course there would have been minor hiccups under Trump (or anyone). But we'll never know, so what's there to discuss?
__________________
I don't like that man. I must get to know him better. --Abraham Lincoln
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 01:08 PM   #7
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,300
We don't have to wonder, despite being a loser he still has people tweet out his gibberish on his behalf, most of which is deranged kibbitzing.

He thinks we should have bombed our own forces.

https://hillreporter.com/twitter-baf...-advice-109978
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 01:21 PM   #8
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,205
Stupid nicknames. Trump's all about stupid nicknames, and would have deployed them mercilessly.

Trump seems to approve of three purposes for which a person might engage in foreign travel:

1: Make scads of money
2: Subjugate people through force and humiliation
3: Luxury vacations

He does not trust people who travel for other reasons. He does not trust foreign nationals unless they are very successful tyrants or amoral business tycoons. He would have made little effort to get out humanitarian workers even of they were American because he sees international humanitarian work as disloyal to America. He would have blamed Afghans who worked with the Americans and refused to get most of them out as well.

He might have engaged in some bombing, but we probably don't have good data anymore as to where or what we could bomb to gain enough security to get people out.

But mostly he would make up stupid nicknames and use them over and over again.

Last edited by crescent; 20th August 2021 at 01:22 PM.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 01:30 PM   #9
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 53,836
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
He wold have mede the situation even worse.
Hard to imagine it being worse than it already is.

ETA: I mean, this is basically the situation that Trump arranged. This is the withdrawal agreement and timeline he negotiated. This is the evacuation plan and security plan that the State Department and the Joint Chiefs organized. If the idea is that this is the plan that the Trump administration set in motion, and that Biden simply let unfold until sometime earlier this week, then we're already seeing what the Trump situation would look like.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.

Last edited by theprestige; 20th August 2021 at 01:40 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 01:42 PM   #10
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 13,660
First, Trump would have sent out a series of poorly written and grossly contradictory Tweets and other public pronouncements.

Second, Trump would have found some way to arrange things so that they would benefit himself and Russia.

Third, Trump would have blamed all of problems on fake news, RHINO Republicans and every single Democrat he could think of.

The Trump playbook is remarkably consistent.
__________________
I can barely believe that I made it through the Trump presidency.

On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."

A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 02:17 PM   #11
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 53,836
Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
First, Trump would have sent out a series of poorly written and grossly contradictory Tweets and other public pronouncements.

Second, Trump would have found some way to arrange things so that they would benefit himself and Russia.

Third, Trump would have blamed all of problems on fake news, RHINO Republicans and every single Democrat he could think of.
Fortunately the first and third have no bearing on events on the ground, and can be safely ignored.

The middle one, though... We're looking at Trump's plan in action. Where's the big benefit to him or Russian in any of this?
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 02:32 PM   #12
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,760
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Things we didn't need:

1) Another Afghanistan thread
2) Another Trump thread

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I think he probably would have handled it better.

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Would have done things in the proper order, or at least mores than Biden.

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Would have communicated with other world leaders and not gone radio silence like Biden did.
Oh sweet effing jeebus, just like he handled the G7 discussion wrt Covid-19?
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 02:40 PM   #13
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,877
What makes anyone think Trump would have handled it better?

Quote:
John McEntee, one of Donald Trump's most-favored aides, handed retired Army Col. Douglas Macgregor a piece of paper with a few notes scribbled on it. He explained: "This is what the president wants you to do."

1. Get us out of Afghanistan.
2. Get us out of Iraq and Syria.
3. Complete the withdrawal from Germany.
4. Get us out of Africa.

It was Nov. 9, 2020 — days after Trump lost his re-election bid, 10 weeks before the end of his presidency and just moments after Macgregor was offered a post as senior adviser to acting Defense Secretary Christopher Miller.
Quote:
The one-page memo was delivered by courier to Christopher Miller's office two days later, on the afternoon of Nov. 11. The order arrived seemingly out of nowhere, and its instructions, signed by Trump, were stunning: All U.S. military forces were to be withdrawn from Somalia by Dec. 31, 2020. All U.S. forces were to be withdrawn from Afghanistan by Jan. 15, 2021.
Quote:
The U.S. government's top national security leaders soon realized they were dealing with an off-the-books operation by the commander in chief himself.
Quote:
Trump's instincts should have come as little surprise. He was frantically trying to salvage his own legacy while simultaneously trying to overturn the election results and block Biden's transition to power. The result was chaos.
Quote:
When it came down to it, Trump was indecisive. In the view of top officials, he did not seem to want to own the consequences of a precipitous withdrawal.

This allowed the Pentagon to dismiss his tweets and rants and maintain the status quo. They stuck to the National Defense Strategy — a document they fully believed Trump hadn't bothered to read.
Quote:
In response to a Trump tweet calling for serving troops to be home by Christmas, Esper sent the president a classified memo warning conditions in Afghanistan were not appropriate for a precipitous withdrawal. A rush for the exits, he argued, would break faith with allies, increase the likelihood of green-on-blue insider attacks, open the door to terrorism, embolden the Taliban, and undermine the government in Kabul.

Trump, with McEntee's encouragement, fired Esper on Nov. 9.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 02:44 PM   #14
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,877
continued from my post above:

Quote:
For all the feverish media speculation about the president's secret agenda at the Pentagon, the ultimate goal was simple: Steamroll the generals and extract America from its foreign engagements, leaving behind a done deal that could not be easily reversed by the next administration.
Quote:
Likewise a date included in the order for disengagement from Somalia — a smaller piece of Trump's demand to "get out of Africa" — had been changed from Jan. 15 to Dec. 31. Both dates were designed to get U.S. troops out of both countries before Trump left office on Jan. 20.
Quote:
In previous conversations with Trump, they had raised the specter of Saigon in 1975, where images of American helicopters evacuating people from rooftops as the North Vietnamese took control of the capital city would become engraved in the historical record of the Vietnam War. The unsubtle warning: This would be Trump's legacy if he rushed to the exit.
And, in a recent interview with Axios, Trump pointed out he also had concerns about leaving behind billions of dollars of equipment during a rushed, logistically complex withdrawal. "You remember those scenes [in Vietnam] with the helicopters, right, with people grabbing onto the gear? You don't want that. And I wouldn't have that," he said. Still, Trump had signed the extraordinary 'withdrawal in eight weeks' order.
Quote:
In addition to the 2,500 U.S. troops, there would be thousands of additional U.S. contractors, NATO troops and NATO contractors all remaining in Afghanistan, which was seen as a sufficient force to maintain counterterrorism capabilities. And he was putting the U.S. on the path to ending the forever war.

And with that, Trump folded on total withdrawal for the last time as president.
Quote:
While Trump evidently regretted not pushing the generals harder in the early years of his presidency, he now unsurprisingly seeks credit for Biden's ability to carry out such a move.
https://www.axios.com/off-the-rails-...d5eb3c6e2.html
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 02:52 PM   #15
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,300
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Hard to imagine it being worse than it already is.
What a poor imagination.

At a bare minimum, Trump could have been selling out adversarial journalists to the Taliban to be murdered, like he did Jamal Khashoggi.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 02:52 PM   #16
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 53,836
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What makes anyone think Trump would have handled it better?
As of earlier this week, the conventional wisdom on this board seemed to be that this is Trump's plan and we're seeing exactly how Trump would have handled it. That what we're getting from Biden is not how he would have handled it, but rather him just letting Trump's plan play out as-is.

So while I don't think Trump would have handled it any better, I don't think he would have handled it any worse than how he handled it.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 02:53 PM   #17
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 53,836
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
What a poor imagination.

At a bare minimum, Trump could have been selling out adversarial journalists to the Taliban to be murdered, like he did Jamal Khashoggi.
Selling out? Or just abandoning them? Like Biden is doing?
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 02:58 PM   #18
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,300
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Selling out? Or just abandoning them? Like Biden is doing?
Selling out. As in, here's his location, send the money to Kusher.

Man, it's amazing how little conservatives have retained of just how bad it had gotten. For people obsessed with the past, there's a very recent four-year gap in your memory.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 03:03 PM   #19
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 32,433
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Things we didn't need:

1) Another Afghanistan thread
2) Another Trump thread

I think he probably would have handled it better. Would have done things in the proper order, or at least mores than Biden. Would have communicated with other world leaders and not gone radio silence like Biden did.

Of course there would have been minor hiccups under Trump (or anyone). But we'll never know, so what's there to discuss?
What would have been the proper order? Get our civilians and allied Afghans out first?
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 03:03 PM   #20
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,725
Do the Taliban actually Need Nuclear weapons, because as bad as Trump Is
at deal Making he probably would have thrown a Couple in for them!
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 03:04 PM   #21
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 32,433
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As of earlier this week, the conventional wisdom on this board seemed to be that this is Trump's plan and we're seeing exactly how Trump would have handled it. That what we're getting from Biden is not how he would have handled it, but rather him just letting Trump's plan play out as-is.

So while I don't think Trump would have handled it any better, I don't think he would have handled it any worse than how he handled it.
Entirely agree. It's extremely difficult to see how it could have gone any worse.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 03:15 PM   #22
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,877
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As of earlier this week, the conventional wisdom on this board seemed to be that this is Trump's plan and we're seeing exactly how Trump would have handled it. That what we're getting from Biden is not how he would have handled it, but rather him just letting Trump's plan play out as-is.

So while I don't think Trump would have handled it any better, I don't think he would have handled it any worse than how he handled it.
Then you have a very unrealistic view of Trump.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 03:19 PM   #23
Fidelio
Muse
 
Fidelio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The island of Atlanta
Posts: 974
Well the Taliban did change the color scheme for the banner "a cartoonishly cruel death to everyone who disagrees with us." from black to white. That's a plus, right?
__________________
.. The stars were suns, but so far away they were just little points of light ... The scale of the universe suddenly opened up to me. It was a kind of religious experience. There was a magnificence to it, a grandeur, a scale which has never left me. Never ever left me.
Carl Sagan
Fidelio is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 03:23 PM   #24
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,300
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Entirely agree. It's extremely difficult to see how it could have gone any worse.
As the Taliban closes in on Kabul, a Trump executive order in Stephen Miller's handwriting declares Afghanistan a hostile nation, thus making entry into the United States for Afghan nationals illegal and they're unceremoniously turned away at the tarmac into the hands of the Taliban, as are at least a few dozen US citizens whose skin happened to be browner than ideal. Conservatives on this board blithely argue that alles ist gut, that there is a process for these things and if these people want to come to American they need to remain in Afghanistan and politely ask the Taliban for permission to flee their authoritarian regime. No one remarks on the deaths.

Last edited by Beelzebuddy; 20th August 2021 at 03:24 PM.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 03:33 PM   #25
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,877
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
As the Taliban closes in on Kabul, a Trump executive order in Stephen Miller's handwriting declares Afghanistan a hostile nation, thus making entry into the United States for Afghan nationals illegal and they're unceremoniously turned away at the tarmac into the hands of the Taliban, as are at least a few dozen US citizens whose skin happened to be browner than ideal. Conservatives on this board blithely argue that alles ist gut, that there is a process for these things and if these people want to come to American they need to remain in Afghanistan and politely ask the Taliban for permission to flee their authoritarian regime. No one remarks on the deaths.
I can just see anti-Muslim, anti-immigration Trump letting in thousands of Afghan refugees.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 03:45 PM   #26
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8,300
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I can just see anti-Muslim, anti-immigration Trump letting in thousands of Afghan refugees.
The rich ones could have come, of course. Trump's administration may have seen most things in black and white, but they were easily blinded by green.
Beelzebuddy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 05:12 PM   #27
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,103
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What makes anyone think Trump would have handled it better?
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Looking at that list of actions rather looks like something you would be familiar with.... a school kid who had the whole term to complete an assignment, has done nothing about it and is in a state of panic trying to get it all done the night before it has to be handed in.
__________________
► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!

Last edited by smartcooky; 20th August 2021 at 05:13 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 05:15 PM   #28
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,103
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So while I don't think Trump would have handled it any better, I don't think he would have handled it any worse than how he handled it.

Did you read and understand the information in Stacy's last two posts, or did you just handwave it away.
__________________
► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 05:52 PM   #29
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,877
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
The rich ones could have come, of course. Trump's administration may have seen most things in black and white, but they were easily blinded by green.
I agree with that. Money trumps everything. Pardon the pun.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 07:44 PM   #30
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 18,126
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I think he probably would have handled it better. Would have done things in the proper order, or at least mores than Biden. Would have communicated with other world leaders and not gone radio silence like Biden did.
Doubtful. We have already seen how Trump handled military withdrawals when he pulled troops out of Syria. In that case he made no attempt to ensure the Kurdish people (who had been key allies) were protected. (They weren't even properly informed.... "radio silence", as you like to say.) ISIS terrorists who had been held by Kurdish fighters ended up getting released after Turkey started causing problems. It forced a closer relationship between the Kurds and Assad.

I see no reason to assume Trump would do any better had he been president during the withdrawal from Afghanistan.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 08:30 PM   #31
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 13,219
Trump was in power for most of the withdrawal which began in February 2020.

Were any interpreters or Afghan contractors brought out during his time? Not as far as I am aware.

Were any plans drawn up for the evacuation of US citizens for a withdrawal that was supposed to be complete by April 2021?

No, Trump would clearly have done worse.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

Last edited by Robin; 20th August 2021 at 08:31 PM.
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 08:46 PM   #32
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 15,842
Not would have - did.
Trump wanted to get everyone out before Christmas, but the DOD said it needed the time to get the most precious hardware out.
__________________
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
-Anne Lamott
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 08:55 PM   #33
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 39,399
I think the situation wouldn't be much different if Trump, Biden, Obama, or Bush did it.

It's a maths problem.

Once you start removing troops, there become fewer and fewer troops and allies to protect those that are left.

The more troops you ship out, the less troops on the ground to protect the ones left.

I don't see any concrete examples of how the maths problem can be solved by any political party.
__________________
"We stigmatize and send to the margins
people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid"
- Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 09:09 PM   #34
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 13,219
Trump claims that the Taliban wouldn't have taken over if the was president because they would have been scared if him.

It is absurd to suppose that the Taliban would be scared of the man they had been playing so beautifully (remember when he was willingly spouting Taliban propoganda by saying they would take over the job of hunting terrorists?)
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 10:30 PM   #35
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,103
What Trump and Stephen Miller and other scumbags did is disgusting. They intentionally stalled the SIV process to minimise the chances of Afghani allies that worked with US forces getting out.

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/...s-119173701791
__________________
► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 10:39 PM   #36
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,877
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Trump claims that the Taliban wouldn't have taken over if the was president because they would have been scared if him.

It is absurd to suppose that the Taliban would be scared of the man they had been playing so beautifully (remember when he was willingly spouting Taliban propoganda by saying they would take over the job of hunting terrorists?)
All we have to do to understand that the Taliban were afraid of strong man Trump is to look back at his record of handling Kim Jong Un, Putin, Erdogan, Bolso.....er....never mind. My bad.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 10:54 PM   #37
Lurch
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,822
Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
I think the situation wouldn't be much different if Trump, Biden, Obama, or Bush did it.

It's a maths problem.

Once you start removing troops, there become fewer and fewer troops and allies to protect those that are left.

The more troops you ship out, the less troops on the ground to protect the ones left.

I don't see any concrete examples of how the maths problem can be solved by any political party.
Lack of imagination. The math here by itself is not hard. Get out the civilians first. Then the troops go after that's done.
Lurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 10:58 PM   #38
Lurch
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,822
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
What Trump and Stephen Miller and other scumbags did is disgusting. They intentionally stalled the SIV process to minimise the chances of Afghani allies that worked with US forces getting out.

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/...s-119173701791

I was just about to bring that up. I'm not at all surprised Gruppenfurher Miller was the baleful mover behind this. That SOB really needs to be called to account. There were illegal shenanigans perpetrated here.
Lurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2021, 11:50 PM   #39
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,561
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Lack of imagination. The math here by itself is not hard. Get out the civilians first. Then the troops go after that's done.
Why? I can understand why the troops can't get out until ordered to, but why should they be responsible for getting civilians out too? Was there some reason they couldn't get themselves out earlier?
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2021, 12:29 AM   #40
Orphia Nay
Penguilicious Spodmaster.
Tagger
 
Orphia Nay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables).
Posts: 39,399
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Lack of imagination. The math here by itself is not hard. Get out the civilians first. Then the troops go after that's done.

The troops can't leave en masse. Have you ever been to an airport? Hence the maths problem.
__________________
"We stigmatize and send to the margins
people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid"
- Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".
Orphia Nay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:02 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.