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Old 9th September 2021, 10:34 PM   #281
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I sort of assumed he wasn't, and he confirmed this on his podcast today. not sure exactly why he's not vaccinated - I don't think he's against the vaccine since he mentioned having an appointment for the Pfizer in an earlier podcast, but said they ran out or something like that.
That rings false. Moderna and Pfizer have both been widely available without an appt. for a couple months now. Walk into almost any pharmacy and get one on the spot.
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Old 9th September 2021, 10:40 PM   #282
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That rings false. Moderna and Pfizer have both been widely available without an appt. for a couple months now. Walk into almost any pharmacy and get one on the spot.
I may have misremembered exactly what he said the reason was, but I do remember him mentioning a while back that he had an appointment to get vaccinated, but didn't for some reason or other. I think this was quite a while back, so it may have been before they were widely available. It still sounds odd, considering his net worth and influence.

In either case, he definitely said today on the podcast that he wasn't vaccinated, which was my main point.
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Old 11th September 2021, 03:27 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
Amen. Upwards of twelve percent of the American public have had this disease. Some people immediately say, "Twelve percent? That's not too bad." What they seem to miss is -- and I don't mean deny, I mean miss -- is that twelve percent is after all the lockdowns, face mask mandates and social distancing. Imagine what the numbers would look like if we hadn't taken all those precautions?


They also miss the fact that even the half-assed efforts people have made to comply with masking and social distancing effectively wiped out flu in the US in 2020.

So, what does that tell us about COVID? That it is far more infectious than a typical flu.
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Old 11th September 2021, 04:09 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That rings false. Moderna and Pfizer have both been widely available without an appt. for a couple months now. Walk into almost any pharmacy and get one on the spot.
I got both of my shots without an appointment. The first shot I might have had to wait five maybe ten minutes most for the pharmacist to get to me. No one was before me or after me waiting in line to get their shot. This was in May. The second shot took even less time. Same Walmart pharmacist.

Making an appointment is easy almost everywhere. And even without an appointment it isn't particularly hard.
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Old 11th September 2021, 04:58 PM   #285
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There's probably some overlap but this site is worth a good look: https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/
Depressing, sad, hard to believe these idiots are not getting the message and the actual facts.


Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Rogan said in April that he would not recommend the vaccine for someone who is 21 years old and healthy and exercises and eats right because they are at very low risk. He also commented on that saying he is not anti-vax and that he is not a respected source of information.

I don't think Rogan's statement is unreasonable. This is a new vaccine and even a new type of vaccine. It was developed and approved very quickly. At the time it had only been out a few months and was only under emergency authorization. There were some reports of side effects. Around that time J&J was suspended for rare side effects and was resumed because the benefits outweighed the risks. There is some risk involved in getting the vaccine.

The alpha variant did not affect young people very much, especially if they are healthy.
There is only a small chance of getting covid in the first place. And for such a person the chances of death or hospitalization or even long covid or anything serious were very small...
Tsk, you are spouting unsupported conclusions. I bolded the worst of your untested hypotheses.

Why didn't a lot of young healthy people die of COVID when the alpha strain was prevalent?

Sounds so logical, must have been the strain. Couldn't possibly have been the closed schools and other forms of social distancing and masks? No, the common knowledge kids rarely get very sick has been bandied about for a year. Surely someone actually looked carefully at the data.

They didn't. We didn't have the data on what happens when lots of kids are actually exposed. Well guess what? Maybe it's not the delta variant that is the issue, maybe limited cases from limited exposures was the variable that mattered?

It's moot now because we do have the delta variant and we are starting to see what happens when kids go back to school with varying degrees of protection. Lots of them are getting sick, lots of them are getting very sick, some of them are dying.

So why on Earth would anyone think getting infected was safer than getting the vaccine? At least for kids 12 and up the vaccine is immensely safer. These vaccines have been given to millions and millions of people with incredibly rare serious side effects. And those can be managed by careful screening and careful choice of vaccine type.

Unless you have a child that is 100% isolated 100% of the time, the vaccine is immeasurably safer. We have that data. We have millions of vaccine recipients. And soon we'll have enough data to start vaccinating younger kids.

People need to be careful when repeating said common knowledge that there actually is research to back that up, not just conclusions one hears repeated.

Now if you have some actual data that looked at what percentage of the pediatric population those mild cases represent, that would be important to see. On the one hand we have data on a relatively small sample size, the pediatric cases we have seen. But as that opens up to a large sample size relative to the pediatric population we are seeing many negative outcomes.

My son is 32 but were he 12 I'd have taken him in to get vaccinated in a heartbeat. The vaccines are safer that getting infected, there is no question. I don't understand why people are so quick to believe the vaccines might turn out to have some adverse effects we have not yet seen when COVID has some significant adverse effect we have seen. The only reason to wait is if one can protect kids (or adults) from any chance whatsoever they would be infected.

IOW, what are the choices?
Risk infection and we see the outcome of that
Risk some significant adverse vaccine reaction that is either incredibly rare or as yet unknown.
Stay completely safe from COVID exposure
I don't believe there is a 4th option but if someone wants to suggest one, feel free.

If you cannot avoid exposure, the vaccine is safer.
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Old 11th September 2021, 05:01 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
They also miss the fact that even the half-assed efforts people have made to comply with masking and social distancing effectively wiped out flu in the US in 2020.

So, what does that tell us about COVID? That it is far more infectious than a typical flu.
Yes but keep in mind there are factors involved that are specific to the exposed population; not all of the factors are pathogen specific.

One thing to consider is the world population started out in 2020 as nearly, if not completely, immunologically naive to this virus. Everyone was susceptible. With flu that is not the case and the proportion of people with some immune protection is variable depending on the strain.

It is true that most of the time influenza is less infectious than COVID. Flu is almost always droplet spread. But once in a great while certain strains of flu are more airborne than droplet spread.

So with COVID you have an entire world population that has not been exposed and it is airborne. With flu you have a partially protected world population and for the most part the virus is droplet spread.

But influenza has the capacity to be as bad as COVID. In 1918 it was an influenza pandemic, not a coronavirus or a new pathogen pandemic.
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Old 11th September 2021, 05:01 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There's probably some overlap but this site is worth a good look: https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/
Depressing, sad, hard to believe these idiots are not getting the message and the actual facts.


Tsk, you are spouting unsupported conclusions. I bolded the worst of your untested hypotheses.

Why didn't a lot of young healthy people die of COVID when the alpha strain was prevalent?

Sounds so logical, must have been the strain. Couldn't possibly have been the closed schools and other forms of social distancing and masks? No, the common knowledge kids rarely get very sick has been bandied about for a year. Surely someone actually looked carefully at the data.

They didn't. We didn't have the data on what happens when lots of kids are actually exposed. Well guess what? Maybe it's not the delta variant that is the issue, maybe limited cases from limited exposures was the variable that mattered?

It's moot now because we do have the delta variant and we are starting to see what happens when kids go back to school with varying degrees of protection. Lots of them are getting sick, lots of them are getting very sick, some of them are dying.

So why on Earth would anyone think getting infected was safer than getting the vaccine? At least for kids 12 and up the vaccine is immensely safer. These vaccines have been given to millions and millions of people with incredibly rare serious side effects. And those can be managed by careful screening and careful choice of vaccine type.

Unless you have a child that is 100% isolated 100% of the time, the vaccine is immeasurably safer. We have that data. We have millions of vaccine recipients. And soon we'll have enough data to start vaccinating younger kids.

People need to be careful when repeating said common knowledge that there actually is research to back that up, not just conclusions one hears repeated.

Now if you have some actual data that looked at what percentage of the pediatric population those mild cases represent, that would be important to see. On the one hand we have data on a relatively small sample size, the pediatric cases we have seen. But as that opens up to a large sample size relative to the pediatric population we are seeing many negative outcomes.

My son is 32 but were he 12 I'd have taken him in to get vaccinated in a heartbeat. The vaccines are safer that getting infected, there is no question. I don't understand why people are so quick to believe the vaccines might turn out to have some adverse effects we have not yet seen when COVID has some significant adverse effect we have seen. The only reason to wait is if one can protect kids (or adults) from any chance whatsoever they would be infected.

IOW, what are the choices?
Risk infection and we see the outcome of that
Risk some significant adverse vaccine reaction that is either incredibly rare or as yet unknown.
Stay completely safe from COVID exposure
I don't believe there is a 4th option but if someone wants to suggest one, feel free.

If you cannot avoid exposure, the vaccine is safer.
THAT!
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Old 11th September 2021, 05:13 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
...snip

So why on Earth would anyone think getting infected was safer than getting the vaccine? At least for kids 12 and up the vaccine is immensely safer. These vaccines have been given to millions and millions of people with incredibly rare serious side effects. And those can be managed by careful screening and careful choice of vaccine type.

...snip
If you read DA's post you will see that isn't the risk assessment he is talking about. He is talking about the mistaken risk assessment of:

Risk of taking the vaccine vs risk of NOT taking the vaccine.

People make this mistake all the time. Your risk assessment should be based on the highlighted:

Risk of taking the vaccine vs risk of getting COVID.

But, as I have noted before, people are lousy at risk assessment anyway, so they probably aren't actually making a risk assessment; just like FDA full approval, they use it as an excuse.
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Old 11th September 2021, 05:17 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
If you read DA's post you will see that isn't the risk assessment he is talking about. He is talking about the mistaken risk assessment of:

Risk of taking the vaccine vs risk of NOT taking the vaccine.

People make this mistake all the time. Your risk assessment should be based on the highlighted:

Risk of taking the vaccine vs risk of getting COVID.

But, as I have noted before, people are lousy at risk assessment anyway, so they probably aren't actually making a risk assessment; just like FDA full approval, they use it as an excuse.
Hmmm. I read it the same way as Skeptic G. Devil'sAdvocate wrote:

Quote:
There were some reports of side effects. Around that time J&J was suspended for rare side effects and was resumed because the benefits outweighed the risks. There is some risk involved in getting the vaccine.
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Old 11th September 2021, 05:31 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
If you read DA's post you will see that isn't the risk assessment he is talking about. He is talking about the mistaken risk assessment of:

Risk of taking the vaccine vs risk of NOT taking the vaccine.

People make this mistake all the time. Your risk assessment should be based on the highlighted:

Risk of taking the vaccine vs risk of getting COVID.

But, as I have noted before, people are lousy at risk assessment anyway, so they probably aren't actually making a risk assessment; just like FDA full approval, they use it as an excuse.
I'm sorry but that is just stupid. You are saying the exact same thing!

As for risk assessment, I know full well how risk assessment is technically made. It's my job to know that. And I guarantee you I am not lousy at risk assessment when it comes to vaccine choices.
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Old 11th September 2021, 05:35 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And I guarantee you I am not lousy at risk assessment when it comes to vaccine choices.
There is nothing more convincing than self-testimony, in my book.
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Old 11th September 2021, 05:51 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
There is nothing more convincing than self-testimony, in my book.
Hmm. You may be correct.
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Old 11th September 2021, 07:13 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Hmm. You may be correct.
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Old 11th September 2021, 09:18 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
There is nothing more convincing than self-testimony, in my book.
Of course. You can convince yourself of anything if you are sufficiently ignorant of facts.
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► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
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Old 11th September 2021, 09:21 PM   #295
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In the mean time, Howard Stern is not holding anything back...

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/10/enter...tm_medium=feed

"When are we gonna stop putting up with the idiots in this country and just say it's mandatory to get vaccinated? **** 'em. **** their freedom. I want my freedom to live," he said. "I want to get out of the house already. I want to go next door and play chess. I want to go take some pictures. This is bull-****."
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Old 11th September 2021, 09:48 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
If you read DA's post you will see that isn't the risk assessment he is talking about. He is talking about the mistaken risk assessment of:

Risk of taking the vaccine vs risk of NOT taking the vaccine.

People make this mistake all the time. Your risk assessment should be based on the highlighted:

Risk of taking the vaccine vs risk of getting COVID.

But, as I have noted before, people are lousy at risk assessment anyway, so they probably aren't actually making a risk assessment; just like FDA full approval, they use it as an excuse.
I'm not sure what distinction you are making. I think Rogan was talking about the risk of death or permanent injury from the vaccine versus death or permanent injury from getting covid while not vaccinated.
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Old 11th September 2021, 10:20 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
They didn't. We didn't have the data on what happens when lots of kids are actually exposed. Well guess what? Maybe it's not the delta variant that is the issue, maybe limited cases from limited exposures was the variable that mattered?
Rogan wasn't talking about kids. He was talking about healthy 21 year olds. We have had data on that. Covid case rates have actually been usually highest in the 18-29 year age group.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra...aphicsovertime

I don't think that it is at all controversial that the risk of death, permanent disability or illness, or even hospitalization increases dramatically with age. I tried to put together some numbers but the different data sets I could find for population, cases, hospitalization s, etc. use different age groupings. Here is some data from last April/May from New York City:

https://www.worldometers.info/corona...-demographics/

For the 18-44 age group the risk of death when infected by covid is 0.2%. For that age group, only 8% of the deaths did not have underlying conditions (with 13% unknown if there were underlying conditions). I would expect that for something like the 18-24 age group Rogan was talking about those numbers would be even much smaller.

At the time, the covid case numbers had dropped dramatically to the lowest since the pandemic began, and they were dropping every day. The risk of even getting covid, let alone death or permanent injury for a healthy 21 year old, was rapidly vanishing.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So why on Earth would anyone think getting infected was safer than getting the vaccine? At least for kids 12 and up the vaccine is immensely safer. These vaccines have been given to millions and millions of people with incredibly rare serious side effects. And those can be managed by careful screening and careful choice of vaccine type.
Rogan was saying this back in April. The vaccine was available since December 20, but was slow starting out. The big vaccine roll out didn't really kick off until sometime around maybe February. While millions of people had been vaccinated at the point, the vast majority had not been fully vaccinated for more than a month or two. It was still under emergency use authorization. There were some news reports about possible serious side effects. Some vaccines had been stopped in some countries due to safety concerns. The J&J vaccine had been pulled in the U.S. due to safety concerns.

While I disagree with Rogan's assessment, at the time I don't think it was unreasonable.

When delta hit he should have made a reassessment. With the increase in cases and delta affecting young people more, the risk to healthy 21 years old increased significantly since April. And with millions of people fully vaccinated for months and screening procedures identified and full FDA approval, the potential risks of the vaccine decreased significantly since April. Based on those changes in the risk factors, he should have said that healthy 21 year olds should now get vaccinated.
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Old 11th September 2021, 11:53 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Rogan wasn't talking about kids. He was talking about healthy 21 year olds. We have had data on that. Covid case rates have actually been usually highest in the 18-29 year age group.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra...aphicsovertime

I don't think that it is at all controversial that the risk of death, permanent disability or illness, or even hospitalization increases dramatically with age. I tried to put together some numbers but the different data sets I could find for population, cases, hospitalization s, etc. use different age groupings. Here is some data from last April/May from New York City:

https://www.worldometers.info/corona...-demographics/

For the 18-44 age group the risk of death when infected by covid is 0.2%. For that age group, only 8% of the deaths did not have underlying conditions (with 13% unknown if there were underlying conditions). I would expect that for something like the 18-24 age group Rogan was talking about those numbers would be even much smaller.

At the time, the covid case numbers had dropped dramatically to the lowest since the pandemic began, and they were dropping every day. The risk of even getting covid, let alone death or permanent injury for a healthy 21 year old, was rapidly vanishing.

Rogan was saying this back in April. The vaccine was available since December 20, but was slow starting out. The big vaccine roll out didn't really kick off until sometime around maybe February. While millions of people had been vaccinated at the point, the vast majority had not been fully vaccinated for more than a month or two. It was still under emergency use authorization. There were some news reports about possible serious side effects. Some vaccines had been stopped in some countries due to safety concerns. The J&J vaccine had been pulled in the U.S. due to safety concerns.

While I disagree with Rogan's assessment, at the time I don't think it was unreasonable.

When delta hit he should have made a reassessment. With the increase in cases and delta affecting young people more, the risk to healthy 21 years old increased significantly since April. And with millions of people fully vaccinated for months and screening procedures identified and full FDA approval, the potential risks of the vaccine decreased significantly since April. Based on those changes in the risk factors, he should have said that healthy 21 year olds should now get vaccinated.
I wasn't addressing Rogan, I was addressing this:
Originally Posted by DA
I don't think Rogan's statement is unreasonable.
The vaccine is safer than COVID at any age. One could say we need more data on the vaccine in kids under 12. That's fine. The ideal dose needs to be worked out, and maybe which vaccine types are better in kids.

But the nonsense that gee, maybe there is an unknown vaccine risk just doesn't cut it. Gee there is an actual serious risk to kids from COVID. You can't leave that out of the equation and just say what are the vaccine risks.

And it was true back in April, not just now. Add in the delta variant and it becomes even more true.

If you look at the numbers of kids and healthy young adults back in April what you are seeing is a population too small to draw comparisons on.


Take any new drug or vaccine introduced into the market. Generally these have been tested on thousands of people. Until a new drug hits the market we won't see rare adverse effects that happen in 1 in 10,000 or 1 in a million even.

You are seeing the same thing with COVID. We weren't seeing the less common serious cases in kids and young healthy adults because not enough of them had yet been infected. Now that the virus is more widespread in these groups we are seeing that COVID is not so benign after all.

My point was even back in April I would have placed my bet on the vaccine being safer than getting COVID even in kids and healthy young adults because we could see what was going to happen when the virus became more widespread.
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Old 12th September 2021, 12:47 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Rogan wasn't talking about kids. He was talking about healthy 21 year olds. We have had data on that. Covid case rates have actually been usually highest in the 18-29 year age group.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra...aphicsovertime

I don't think that it is at all controversial that the risk of death, permanent disability or illness, or even hospitalization increases dramatically with age. I tried to put together some numbers but the different data sets I could find for population, cases, hospitalization s, etc. use different age groupings. Here is some data from last April/May from New York City:

https://www.worldometers.info/corona...-demographics/

For the 18-44 age group the risk of death when infected by covid is 0.2%. For that age group, only 8% of the deaths did not have underlying conditions (with 13% unknown if there were underlying conditions). I would expect that for something like the 18-24 age group Rogan was talking about those numbers would be even much smaller.

At the time, the covid case numbers had dropped dramatically to the lowest since the pandemic began, and they were dropping every day. The risk of even getting covid, let alone death or permanent injury for a healthy 21 year old, was rapidly vanishing.



Rogan was saying this back in April. The vaccine was available since December 20, but was slow starting out. The big vaccine roll out didn't really kick off until sometime around maybe February. While millions of people had been vaccinated at the point, the vast majority had not been fully vaccinated for more than a month or two. It was still under emergency use authorization. There were some news reports about possible serious side effects. Some vaccines had been stopped in some countries due to safety concerns. The J&J vaccine had been pulled in the U.S. due to safety concerns.

While I disagree with Rogan's assessment, at the time I don't think it was unreasonable.

When delta hit he should have made a reassessment. With the increase in cases and delta affecting young people more, the risk to healthy 21 years old increased significantly since April. And with millions of people fully vaccinated for months and screening procedures identified and full FDA approval, the potential risks of the vaccine decreased significantly since April. Based on those changes in the risk factors, he should have said that healthy 21 year olds should now get vaccinated.
All this claptrap, then and now, is irrelevant. Vaccines are not just about protecting the recipient. If a demographic is at low risk, but can still spread the pathogen, then consideration extends beyond the self.
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Old 12th September 2021, 12:57 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
In the mean time, Howard Stern is not holding anything back...

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/10/enter...tm_medium=feed

"When are we gonna stop putting up with the idiots in this country and just say it's mandatory to get vaccinated? **** 'em. **** their freedom. I want my freedom to live," he said. "I want to get out of the house already. I want to go next door and play chess. I want to go take some pictures. This is bull-****."
Howard Stern plays chess? I did not see that coming.
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Old 12th September 2021, 01:00 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Howard Stern plays chess? I did not see that coming.
Yeah, I wouldn't have picked him as a photographer either
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Old 12th September 2021, 01:11 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yeah, I wouldn't have picked him as a photographer either
He's right though. We should tell these unvaccinated scum how much we hate them. We really, really hate them. Get the shot ********. We want our lives back and you're in the way. Once there's been a decent interval between EUA for kids to get the shot and full vaccination, I'm done with all of it.
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Old 12th September 2021, 03:23 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm sorry but that is just stupid. You are saying the exact same thing!

As for risk assessment, I know full well how risk assessment is technically made. It's my job to know that. And I guarantee you I am not lousy at risk assessment when it comes to vaccine choices.
You may not be lousy at it, but in general most of the public is.

Do you really think the risk of not taking the vaccine is the same as the risk of getting Covid?
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Old 12th September 2021, 07:12 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Howard Stern plays chess? I did not see that coming.
I thought the same thing. Doesn't seem like the chess type.
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Old 12th September 2021, 07:15 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yeah, I wouldn't have picked him as a photographer either
He did make a movie in college, if his book is to be believed.
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Old 12th September 2021, 12:02 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
You may not be lousy at it, but in general most of the public is.
Obviously there are people (probably most people) who don't understand real risk vs perceived risk.


Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Do you really think the risk of not taking the vaccine is the same as the risk of getting Covid?
For all intents and purposes in what my post was comparing, yes.

Do you think it makes sense to go into some esoteric definition of risk assessment when explaining the argument comparing people's fear of vaccine adverse reactions vs ignoring the risk of a COVID adverse reaction?

Ever heard of communicating risk to antivaxxers?
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Old 12th September 2021, 12:15 PM   #307
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It never hurts to review communicating with vaccine hesitant* persons. Not saying I couldn't use this review myself mind you.

How to respond to vocal vaccine deniers in public
Quote:
2. Keep your key messages simple
Do not use scientific jargon or acronyms if you can avoid them. According to research on reasoning, scientific jargon does not increase the speaker’s perceived credibility [43] but it jeopardizes that a non-scientific community will understand you [44]. This applies to the use of acronyms, too, such as AEFI for adverse event following immunization. Additionally, research on cognitive psychology shows that unfamiliar words are less likely to be remembered or memorized [45] and should therefore be avoided. If you can, condense your main message into a simple, easily understood “sound bite” – that is, a less than 30 second message that captures your point in a riveting fashion.
Quote:
5. Emphasize high safety instead of low risk (framing)
A medal always has two sides. A burger with 25% fat is 75% fat-free. People would rather buy a burger labelled 75% fat-free than labelled 25% fat, even though the fat content is identical. Research shows that different framing of the same fact can lead to different risk-perceptions and behaviour [48], [49]. Emphasizing the positive rather than the negative aspects of vaccination should increase preference [50] and support [51] for it. This does not mean that you should avoid discussing the risks of vaccines but if you want to get one key message across then this message should highlight the high safety of vaccines instead of the low risk. Emphasize the high level of safety of vaccines rather than the low probability of AEFIs.

*Notice the adoption of vaccine hesitant instead of anti-vaxxer terminology.
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Old 12th September 2021, 12:38 PM   #308
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An ICU nurse's tik tok video of beeping alarms of intubated Covid patients has gone viral and is now going to be used as a PSA to encourage people to get vaccinated. Several people have commented that it convinced them to get vaccinated.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 12th September 2021, 03:24 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It never hurts to review communicating with vaccine hesitant* persons. Not saying I couldn't use this review myself mind you.

How to respond to vocal vaccine deniers in public





*Notice the adoption of vaccine hesitant instead of anti-vaxxer terminology.
That was helpful. I know i tend toward the technical arguments, esoteric or not . I need to work on that.

My main point was the arguments, risk or not, do not center around COVID. They center around the vaccine. So if you totally ignore COVID, it's easy to make a risk assessment that says not taking the vaccine is safer than taking it. Which people have made to me.
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Old 12th September 2021, 03:39 PM   #310
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Sadly, logic and common sense (even real common sense) don't have much impact on vaccine-deniers. As the old skeptical saying goes, you can't logically argue someone out of a position they didn't logically argue themselves into.

The only solution is, alas, shock therapy. (Well...not ECT, although that should remain an option in some cases.) Stories like these need to be circulated:
Quote:
But an Alabama doctor has described the pain families go through when an unvaccinated relative dies from COVID-19 because they thought the virus was a hoax.

"I'm admitting young healthy people to the hospital with very serious COVID infections," Dr Brytney Cobia wrote in a Facebook post.

"One of the last things they do before they're intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I'm sorry, but it's too late."

Three vaccines are authorised for use in Alabama - BioNTech-Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, and Moderna. Despite these being available for months, local news outlet Alabama Live says just 33.7 percent of the population is fully vaccinated and case numbers and hospitalisations are surging again.

"A few days later when I call time of death, I hug their family members and I tell them the best way to honor their loved one is to go get vaccinated and encourage everyone they know to do the same," Dr Cobia continued in her Facebook post.

"They cry. And they tell me they didn't know. They thought it was a hoax. They thought it was political. They thought because they had a certain blood type or a certain skin color they wouldn't get as sick. They thought it was 'just the flu'. But they were wrong.

"They wish they could go back. But they can't. So they thank me and they go get the vaccine. And I go back to my office, write their death note, and say a small prayer that this loss will save more lives."
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world...-deathbed.html

It's not like this hasn't been considered in the medical research either. The impact of sudden shock on families, not just on the victims, is huge.

https://bmcfampract.biomedcentral.co...75-021-01442-8
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Last edited by Norman Alexander; 12th September 2021 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 13th September 2021, 12:10 AM   #311
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I don't remember seeing this name in the thread mentioned:
Quote:
A Texas GOP leader railed against vaccines and masks. Then he died of covid.


A leader of the Texas Republican Party hopped on Facebook in May to post about a “mask burning” party 900 miles away in Cincinnati.

“I wished I lived in the area!” wrote H Scott Apley.

The month before, Apley had responded to what Baltimore’s former health commissioner was heralding as “great news” — clinical trials showed that the Pfizer vaccine was effective at fighting the coronavirus, including one of the recent variants, for at least six months.

“You are an absolute enemy of a free people,” Apley wrote in a Twitter reply.

And on Friday, the 45-year-old Dickinson City Council member republished a Facebook post implying that vaccines don’t work.

Two days later, Apley was admitted to a Galveston hospital with “pneumonia-like symptoms” and tested positive for coronavirus, according to an online fundraising campaign. He was sedated and put on a ventilator.

On Wednesday, he died*, members of his county’s party announced on social media.
*Last May.
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Old 13th September 2021, 12:19 AM   #312
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And then there's this guy:

Quote:
A Georgia police officer who frequently posted anti-vaxx messages on Facebook and took an anti-parasitic drug instead of a vaccine has died of COVID-19.

Captain Joe Manning, 57, of the Wayne County Sheriff's Office died on Wednesday after a short battle with the virus, according to local news station WSAV.
Quote:
In one post, Manning shared an image that said, "I am not vaccinated by choice and that's my right."

In another, Manning encouraged people to stock up on the anti-parasitic drug ivermectin, frequently used to deworm horses, and increasingly being taken by people in a misguided attempt to treat or prevent COVID-19.

"OK Folks Wayne Feed and Seed has some liquid and paste Ivermectin get it while supplies last," Manning wrote on Facebook.

Manning also wrote on Facebook that he had taken ivermectin himself, and criticized Facebook for disciplining him for spreading misinformation, The Independent reported.
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Old 13th September 2021, 12:22 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
An ICU nurse's tik tok video of beeping alarms of intubated Covid patients has gone viral and is now going to be used as a PSA to encourage people to get vaccinated. Several people have commented that it convinced them to get vaccinated.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Thank you for sharing, but I have to say... I find things like that unnerving. A big thanks to all of the medical staff that tough it out, though.

I just found out today that my old college buddy is waiting on a test result to see if he has a breakthrough case. He should know tomorrow. I'll keep a happy thought for him and his family. Hopefully it will be mild if he has it.
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Old 13th September 2021, 12:24 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by kevbo View Post
Thank you for sharing, but I have to say... I find things like that unnerving. A big thanks to all of the medical staff that tough it out, though.

I just found out today that my old college buddy is waiting on a test result to see if he has a breakthrough case. He should know tomorrow. I'll keep a happy thought for him and his family. Hopefully it will be mild if he has it.
The odds are certainly on his side if he does have a breakthrough case.
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Old 13th September 2021, 04:32 AM   #315
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An unvaxxed, Qanon crank was circling the drain in a Chicago hospital. Lin Wood, famous crackpot right wing attorney, was leading a harassment campaign against the medical staff, attempting to threaten or harangue them into treating their nutty comrade with the Ivermectin miracle cure.

Veronica has since died.

https://www.newsweek.com/qanon-veron...mectin-1628348

Quote:
Her death was announced on Telegram by conspiracy theorist Lin Wood, one of the biggest and most influential QAnon supporters. Wood previously urged his 814,000 Telegram followers to ring up the Amita Resurrection Hospital and demand that Wolski be treated with ivermectin instead of approved and tested drugs or vaccines.
https://www.newsweek.com/qanon-veron...mectin-1628348

Lin also shared a video of himself on social media where he called up the hospital, identified himself as an attorney, and claimed that her medical staff would be charged with murder if they did not release her from the hospital to receive the anti-parasite drug.
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Old 13th September 2021, 05:16 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
An unvaxxed, Qanon crank was circling the drain in a Chicago hospital. Lin Wood, famous crackpot right wing attorney, was leading a harassment campaign against the medical staff, attempting to threaten or harangue them into treating their nutty comrade with the Ivermectin miracle cure.

Veronica has since died.

https://www.newsweek.com/qanon-veron...mectin-1628348



https://www.newsweek.com/qanon-veron...mectin-1628348

Lin also shared a video of himself on social media where he called up the hospital, identified himself as an attorney, and claimed that her medical staff would be charged with murder if they did not release her from the hospital to receive the anti-parasite drug.
Because there's no better person to get your medical information from than a crackpot Q Kraken (soon to be ex) attorney.
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Old 13th September 2021, 05:36 AM   #317
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The conspiracy pivot is clear. Those that were previously denying that covid was a serious threat will now pivot to claiming covid will kill you unless you take the miracle treatment.

Unfortunately this puts medical workers even more in the crosshairs of the most unhinged conspiracy cranks. Doctors and other staff that refuse to administer the sheep drench will be blamed for the deaths of these people.
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Old 13th September 2021, 01:15 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I mean, this place has never really had to grapple with how to deal with people who peddle woo and then die from preventable diseases because they bought into their own hype. It is just not something that we, as a group, have much grounding in. We probably are going to miss some of the nuance of such situations.

Maybe if there were a written record we could refer to it would help. We should think about setting something like that up. Even better if it were searchable so that people arriving more recently can read around a bit and see how certain arguments fly so poorly, no matter how often they are brought up.

It could be framed as and educational tool, if there were only a charity interested in sponsoring it.

Maybe I’m reaching, sorry. Just a fleeting idea.

Whatstheharm.net has a section on vaccine denialism, but nothing on Covid that I can find.

http://whatstheharm.net/vaccinedenial.html

Quote:
What's the harm in vaccine denial?

Despite their widespread beneficial effects, some people deny that vaccines work, or accuse them of causing various side-effects. Read more about vaccine denial

Here are 4,403 people who were harmed by someone not thinking critically.
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Old 13th September 2021, 01:53 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It never hurts to review communicating with vaccine hesitant* persons. Not saying I couldn't use this review myself mind you.

How to respond to vocal vaccine deniers in public

Quote:
2. Keep your key messages simple
Do not use scientific jargon or acronyms if you can avoid them. According to research on reasoning, scientific jargon does not increase the speaker’s perceived credibility [43] but it jeopardizes that a non-scientific community will understand you [44]. This applies to the use of acronyms, too, such as AEFI for adverse event following immunization. Additionally, research on cognitive psychology shows that unfamiliar words are less likely to be remembered or memorized [45] and should therefore be avoided. If you can, condense your main message into a simple, easily understood “sound bite” – that is, a less than 30 second message that captures your point in a riveting fashion.
Quote:
5. Emphasize high safety instead of low risk (framing)
A medal always has two sides. A burger with 25% fat is 75% fat-free. People would rather buy a burger labelled 75% fat-free than labelled 25% fat, even though the fat content is identical. Research shows that different framing of the same fact can lead to different risk-perceptions and behaviour [48], [49]. Emphasizing the positive rather than the negative aspects of vaccination should increase preference [50] and support [51] for it. This does not mean that you should avoid discussing the risks of vaccines but if you want to get one key message across then this message should highlight the high safety of vaccines instead of the low risk. Emphasize the high level of safety of vaccines rather than the low probability of AEFIs.


*Notice the adoption of vaccine hesitant instead of anti-vaxxer terminology.
This is Sales 101. Seriously, this is 30 years in sales talking as well as dozens of courses and countless books.

As a sales person I had to learn this the hard way. And by that, I mean not earning commissions when I should have. Fastest way to convince a prospect not to buy is to tell them, they are wrong. They dig their heels in and tune you out. You need to make them think they sold themselves. (As opposed to being sold)

As tempting as it is to call them idiots, it's not an effective closing technique. I point out that 6 billion doses have been administered with only a tiny few experiencing anything but minor side effects.
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Old 13th September 2021, 02:00 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yeah, I wouldn't have picked him as a photographer either
Not surprised. People who know Stern have always said he was a totally different person in private;that the Howard Stern persona on his show was pretty much shtick.
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