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Old 24th August 2021, 03:36 PM   #41
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Over 70,000 evacuated now.
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Old 24th August 2021, 04:55 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Ayn Rand would have an argument on what she thinks someone is owed.

I have no opinion on the question. As I said, I fully admit that any option I would have selected would be me muddling through. I would have no idea if the choice I made was the right one.
This sounds very sociopathic.
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Old 24th August 2021, 05:00 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Over 70,000 evacuated now.
woo!
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Old 24th August 2021, 05:39 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And, besides, ANy Rand is a lousy novelist.
No kidding. I'll call anyone who says they read all of John Gault's speech a liar to their face.
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Old 24th August 2021, 05:50 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Edited by xjx388:  <SNIP> Removed response to moderated content.
That you don't think we owe the Afghans evacuation.

Last edited by xjx388; 25th August 2021 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 24th August 2021, 05:52 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
That you don't think we owe the Afghans what evacuation.
You are wrong. I don't know if it is owed or not, or owed even more. It is likely a good policy to do it. And it is a good thing for those who can get it. And I'm excited if any want to move near here.
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Old 24th August 2021, 06:00 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You are wrong. I don't know if it is owed or not, or owed even more. It is likely a good policy to do it. And it is a good thing for those who can get it. And I'm excited if any want to move near here.
If you thought we owed them evacuation you wouldn't have asked the question.

Oh and that's an opinion.

Last edited by Craig4; 24th August 2021 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 24th August 2021, 06:09 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
If you thought we owed them evacuation you wouldn't have asked the question.

Oh and that's an opinion.
whether they are owed or not is a separate question from if it is a good policy or not. I don't need an opinion on the former to have an opinion on the latter.


I am equally confused by those who proclaim with confidence that they are not owed.
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Old 24th August 2021, 06:09 PM   #49
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I don't understand Bob, why is it your opinion that it's probably a good policy to evacuate the Afghans but you also hold the opinion that it might not be owed to them?
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Old 24th August 2021, 06:10 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
whether they are owed or not is a separate question from if it is a good policy or not. I don't need an opinion on the former to have an opinion on the latter.


I am equally confused by those who proclaim with confidence that they are not owed.
But you do. You already have the opinion that we might not owe the Afghans evacuation.
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Old 24th August 2021, 06:11 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
But you do. You already have the opinion that we might not owe the Afghans evacuation.
We also might owe them.
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Old 24th August 2021, 06:12 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
We also might owe them.
So we've resolved that your opinion is that we might owe the Afghans and it's probably good policy to bring them here.
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Old 24th August 2021, 06:13 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
So we've resolved that your opinion is that we might owe the Afghans and it's probably good policy to bring them here.
we also might not owe them. That is what not having an opinion means.
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Old 24th August 2021, 06:18 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
we also might not owe them. That is what not having an opinion means.
No, it's the same thing. To say we might owe them is to say we might not owe them. And saying that's what not having an opinion means is immaterial being as you've established that you have an opinion.

Last edited by Craig4; 24th August 2021 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 24th August 2021, 06:20 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
No, it's the same thing. To say we might owe them is to say we might not owe them.
Yeah. I have no idea which one is correct and I don't know why so many are so confident in their position yes or no.
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Old 24th August 2021, 06:23 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Yeah. I have no idea which one is correct and I don't know why so many are so confident in their position yes or no.
So it's your opinion that it's possible we owe them something and it's possible we don't. How did you come to that opinion?
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Old 24th August 2021, 06:33 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
So it's your opinion that it's possible we owe them something and it's possible we don't. How did you come to that opinion?
That is not having an opinion on the issue. And I won't entertain this line of questioning further.
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Old 24th August 2021, 06:46 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That is not having an opinion on the issue. And I won't entertain this line of questioning further.
Not having an opinion on an issue is me not having a preferred egg dish. I'm allergic to eggs. I have never in my memory considered what I thought of egg dishes. I have no opinion on the best way to cook and serve eggs.

You however, looked at what was happening in Afghanistan and came to the opinion that we might owe the Afghans something. It is your opinion that there may be some doubt as to what we owe the Afghans if anything. All I"m asking is how you arrived at that opinion. Seems clear enough to me.
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Old 24th August 2021, 07:47 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Well, they are probably owed more than they are getting/going to get from the Biden administration, at this rate. Unless we can somehow get it all done within the next week, that is. The Taliban regime is calling the shots now, apparently.
Do you think they would have received more from the Trump administration? Mr Welcher and Racist?
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Old 24th August 2021, 08:00 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Do you think they would have received more from the Trump administration? Mr Welcher and Racist?
What Trump would have done doesn't change whether we are doing right by them or not in the present.

When are democrats going to have a better response on policy critiques than "but it's better than Trump" for crying out loud?

Can we form an independent baseline for pass/fail at some point?

When my boss is unsatisfied with my work performance, can I just point at Doofus McSlacker and go "but I get more done than he does, so I'm fine, right?"
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Old 24th August 2021, 08:48 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Do you think they would have received more from the Trump administration? Mr Welcher and Racist?
That is a case of Whataboutism as bad as anything I have seen from a Trump Supporter.
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Old 24th August 2021, 11:25 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is this statement I see everywhere that the US owes Afghans who provided aid, and that part of it is paid through emigration.

Framing it as them being owed is odd. How does one know that? How does one make that claim and demonstrate it? Once we broach the subject of who is owed what, I'm not sure how one calculates it. Do you know that they haven't been sufficiently compensated....or even that they owe America more because the US overpaid?


How does one actually rationally and reasonably resolve the question?

(and I guess people mean the US government when they say the US)
I'd say that you answered it yourself when you said "Afghans who provided aid". The fact that they provided something to the US of value means that the US owes them for that service. You can debate what it is that they are owed, but the security and freedom that the US offered in return for their service seems to be a pretty fair trade.
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Old 25th August 2021, 05:25 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I'd say that you answered it yourself when you said "Afghans who provided aid". The fact that they provided something to the US of value means that the US owes them for that service. You can debate what it is that they are owed, but the security and freedom that the US offered in return for their service seems to be a pretty fair trade.
Hmm, I thought my post was more clear. Let me clarify...

The question isnt that they are owed something. The question is: how do you know what they are owed?
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Old 25th August 2021, 05:45 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Hmm, I thought my post was more clear. Let me clarify...

The question isnt that they are owed something. The question is: how do you know what they are owed?
Leaving people to die as a result of helping you is generally seen as a negative outcome among people that are not psychologically damaged.

If you have any questions about this I would recommend visiting earth sometime to see how humans behave and what they value.
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Old 25th August 2021, 05:57 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Leaving people to die as a result of helping you is generally seen as a negative outcome among people that are not psychologically damaged.

If you have any questions about this I would recommend visiting earth sometime to see how humans behave and what they value.
Preventing negative outcomes and whether a party is owed something specific are different questions. One can take actions to prevent a negative outcome for another person whether they are owed it or not. I support getting them out of there to prevent those negative outcomes.
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Old 25th August 2021, 06:06 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Preventing negative outcomes and whether a party is owed something specific are different questions. One can take actions to prevent a negative outcome for another person whether they are owed it or not. I support getting them out of there to prevent those negative outcomes.
AFTER we get our own out.
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Old 25th August 2021, 06:07 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by jollyroger85 View Post
AFTER we get our own out.
I don't have an "own"
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Old 25th August 2021, 06:07 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by jollyroger85 View Post
We never were going to win, just like the Brits and the Russians before us. 2/3s of the country arent urban and live by the tribal system of Pashtunwali (google it), and have for a very long time. They may be fine with the west coming in to builld roads etc, but they don't necessarily want democracy, on a more generic not, the US in particular is terrible at Nation Building in this part of the world.
You weren't going to win because you had no victory criteria, or indeed any play of what to do.
Also I believe the section in your final sentence is superfluous.
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Old 25th August 2021, 06:08 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Bob, there really is such a concept as common decency.
Not to those suffering from libertarianism.
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Old 25th August 2021, 07:44 AM   #70
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Mod WarningThe bulk of this thread has ended up in AAH for personalization, off-topic bickering and other rule breaches. Please keep the conversation to the topic at hand.
Responding to this mod box in thread will be off topic Posted By:xjx388
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Old 25th August 2021, 07:57 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Hmm, I thought my post was more clear. Let me clarify...

The question isnt that they are owed something. The question is: how do you know what they are owed?
You're asking for a rigorous quantifiable amount for something that is not quantifiable. You might as well ask what the colour purple smells like. Your question doesn't make sense.

Edited by xjx388:  <SNIP>
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Old 25th August 2021, 08:02 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Not to those suffering from libertarianism.
Until they find themselves in need of help.
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Old 25th August 2021, 08:39 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Preventing negative outcomes and whether a party is owed something specific are different questions. One can take actions to prevent a negative outcome for another person whether they are owed it or not. I support getting them out of there to prevent those negative outcomes.
To support the idea that evacuating them to prevent a negative outcome requires you to have a system of values. Since you do support the idea to prevent negative outcomes then you have assigned some value to either the action itself, the lives of those involved, or both.

In this case, there are a lot of people in Afghanistan that put their lives at risk to help us. They are at risk again just staying there. Even in a simple transactional relationship we would be shortchanging them by leaving them behind. If you expect that to be quantified somehow you can go elsewhere. I won't engage in that kind of sophistry. That would be as bad as assigning an actual price to a human life, which is both dehumanizing and pointless.

There are higher levels of morality that could be explored here. But since you are hung up on the idea of "owing" this there is no need to go any higher.

They only way we don't "owe" them anything is if their lives are of no value to us. If you cannot see that than I feel very sorry for you. To whatever degree we owe anything it is not only to them. It is also to those that served over there and those that will someday find themselves in the same situation in the future.
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Old 25th August 2021, 08:54 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
No kidding. I'll call anyone who says they read all of John Gault's speech a liar to their face.
Who is John Gault?

Someone told me it was an important novel I should read, so I started it. I kept reading it in the increasingly forlorn hope that it was intended as parody, but poorly written. Some distance into John Galt's speech I skipped ahead about a hundred pages, only to see Galt was still speaking. Enough of that. Poorly written, but not parody. Unless accidental self-parody counts as parody.
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Old 25th August 2021, 09:07 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
To support the idea that evacuating them to prevent a negative outcome requires you to have a system of values. Since you do support the idea to prevent negative outcomes then you have assigned some value to either the action itself, the lives of those involved, or both.

In this case, there are a lot of people in Afghanistan that put their lives at risk to help us. They are at risk again just staying there. Even in a simple transactional relationship we would be shortchanging them by leaving them behind. If you expect that to be quantified somehow you can go elsewhere. I won't engage in that kind of sophistry. That would be as bad as assigning an actual price to a human life, which is both dehumanizing and pointless.

There are higher levels of morality that could be explored here. But since you are hung up on the idea of "owing" this there is no need to go any higher.

They only way we don't "owe" them anything is if their lives are of no value to us. If you cannot see that than I feel very sorry for you. To whatever degree we owe anything it is not only to them. It is also to those that served over there and those that will someday find themselves in the same situation in the future.
If one values their lives, then one does not necessarily owe them anything to provide benefits to them.
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Old 25th August 2021, 09:27 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Hmm, I thought my post was more clear. Let me clarify...

The question isnt that they are owed something. The question is: how do you know what they are owed?
Loyalty and the very least.
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Old 25th August 2021, 09:32 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Loyalty and the very least.
How do you know? More specifically, how do you know that it is specifically evacuation that is what is owed for that level of loyalty? How do you know a gold watch is not sufficient?

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 25th August 2021 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 25th August 2021, 09:44 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
This sounds very sociopathic.
Pretty much the essence of Libertarianism.
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Old 25th August 2021, 10:01 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How do you know? More specifically, how do you know that it is specifically evacuation that is what is owed for that level of loyalty? How do you know a gold watch is not sufficient?
A gold watch is useless if one's hand gets lopped off.
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Old 25th August 2021, 10:02 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
A gold watch is useless if one's hand gets lopped off.
and?
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