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Old 25th August 2021, 10:32 AM   #81
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And they could use the gold watch to pay for the operation to reattach the hand!
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Old 25th August 2021, 11:04 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
If you have to step down a few rungs of Kohlberg’s ladder, abandoning your allies to the mercy of your mutual enemies, you will find it harder to win allies next time.
Succinctly answered in post #8
In the grand scale, it is in our national self interest to do so.

"owe" has nothing to do with the action. You'd have to take up the choice to use that word with the authors, publishers, speakers, making the statement that you "see everywhere."
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Old 25th August 2021, 11:07 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
Succinctly answered in post #8
In the grand scale, it is in our national self interest to do so.

"owe" has nothing to do with the action. You'd have to take up the choice to use that word with the authors, publishers, speakers, making the statement that you "see everywhere."
Well, a few forum members stepped up to the "owe" plate. Would you like to also tell them owe has nothing to do with it? I could list them, if you would like.
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Old 25th August 2021, 11:13 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Cool!

But I receive a lot of confident answers in this thread that belie the position of unaware subjective aesthetic. Or am I misinterpreting?
So why isn’t a sense of duty out of loyalty a sufficient answer for you. What kind of an answer are you seeking?
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Old 25th August 2021, 11:17 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Well, a few forum members stepped up to the "owe" plate. Would you like to also tell them owe has nothing to do with it? I could list them, if you would like.
Nah, I'll let them defend their semantic choices.
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Old 25th August 2021, 11:19 AM   #86
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Old 25th August 2021, 11:36 AM   #87
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They may be killed due to working with us against the Taliban.

That's why we owe them. If we don't at least try to help those who helped us, we are worthless and NOBODY should ever work with us again.
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Old 25th August 2021, 12:06 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
So why isn’t a sense of duty out of loyalty a sufficient answer for you. What kind of an answer are you seeking?
I don't understand what you mean by a sufficient answer. That is a sufficient answer from those parties that believe that(possibly). But not everyone has that as their answer. I can't apply an answer to a position someone doesn't hold
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Old 25th August 2021, 12:06 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
They may be killed due to working with us against the Taliban.

That's why we owe them. If we don't at least try to help those who helped us, we are worthless and NOBODY should ever work with us again.
You seem to be mixing together a few ideas between what is owed and what incentives one has for doing something.
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Old 25th August 2021, 02:17 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You seem to be mixing together a few ideas between what is owed and what incentives one has for doing something.
Since we've established that it is your opinion that there is some doubt as to what we owe the Afghans escaping, what information do you need to change your opinion one way or the other?
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Old 25th August 2021, 02:18 PM   #91
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This is an interesting article on how the visas for Afghan and Iraqui translators and their families were severely reduced and roadblocks were put up by the Trump administration:

Quote:
Trump Administration Has Drastically Dropped Visas For Afghan And Iraqi Interpreters
Quote:
In light of the sacrifice made by Iraqis and Afghans who assisted U.S. forces, Congress created the Special Immigrant Visa Program to get them and their families to safety in the U.S. Farley says it was about gratitude and also an incentive for local nationals to help U.S. troops. Now veterans such as Farley, as well as dozens of lawmakers, say they're afraid the promise they made is being broken. Under the Trump administration, the number coming to the U.S. has dropped drastically.
Quote:
"This administration is hostile to refugees," says Adam Bates, with the International Refugee Assistance Project.

Bates says in Iraq there is a backlog of more than 100,000 people now in the U.S. Refugee Admissions Program P-2 Direct Access Program. Last year about 200 were cleared — down from nearly 10,000 in 2016.

The number of Afghans getting visas also is slowing — down about 60% in recent years, Bates says. More than 4,000 were cleared in fiscal year 2017, compared with about 1,650 in 2018.

"It would be impossible to say that these substantial drops are not a part of some policy. These are people who put themselves at risk because they served with U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan," he says.
https://www.npr.org/2019/05/01/71892...i-interpreters
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Old 25th August 2021, 03:01 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
and?
Sure let them all die. What do you care.
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Old 25th August 2021, 03:04 PM   #93
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Surprise: Trump suggested today that many Afghan Refugees are terrorist in disguise....
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Old 25th August 2021, 03:10 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Since we've established that it is your opinion that there is some doubt as to what we owe the Afghans escaping, what information do you need to change your opinion one way or the other?
I don't understand this. There have been some posts here that convinced me a specific individuals have an argument. But that isn't everyone's argument. I wasn't looking to change my opinion (that is what reddit CMV is for). I was looking for explanations. But every variation of the claim is examined separately. An explanation for Person X's position is only an explanation for Person X's position... not all positions.
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Old 25th August 2021, 03:18 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't understand this. There have been some posts here that convinced me a specific individuals have an argument. But that isn't everyone's argument. I wasn't looking to change my opinion (that is what reddit CMV is for). I was looking for explanations. But every variation of the claim is examined separately. An explanation for Person X's position is only an explanation for Person X's position.. not all positions.
I think it is definitely in the US interest. In a similar situation in future if the US forces can say assist us and if all goes belly up and you were loyal we'll get you and your family out, the people are likely to be loyal. If they are afraid they'll be dumped then they'll hedge their bets and make deals with the (US's) enemy. It is just self interest and future proofing.
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Old 25th August 2021, 03:19 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I think it is definitely in the US interest. In a similar situation in future if the US forces can say assist us and if all goes belly up and you were loyal we'll get you and your family out, the people are likely to be loyal. If they are afraid they'll be dumped then they'll hedge their bets and make deals with the (US's) enemy. It is just self interest and future proofing.
That is my argument for it, also.
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Old 25th August 2021, 03:25 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Surprise: Trump suggested today that many Afghan Refugees are terrorist in disguise....
This is what the idiot said:
Quote:
"Biden surrendered Afghanistan to terrorists and left thousands of Americans for dead by pulling out the military before our citizens," Trump said in a statement on August 24.

"You can be sure the Taliban, who are now in complete control, didn't allow the best and brightest to board these evacuation flights. Instead, we can only imagine how many thousands of terrorists have been airlifted out of Afghanistan and into neighborhoods around the world," Trump said on Tuesday.

"What a terrible failure. NO VETTING. How many terrorists will Joe Biden bring to America? We don't know!" the former president wrote, without citing evidence.
Of course...what else...this is a pack of lies. All the refugees are being vetted at the bases where they first land which are not in the US.
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Old 25th August 2021, 04:12 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't understand this. There have been some posts here that convinced me a specific individuals have an argument. But that isn't everyone's argument. I wasn't looking to change my opinion (that is what reddit CMV is for). I was looking for explanations. But every variation of the claim is examined separately. An explanation for Person X's position is only an explanation for Person X's position... not all positions.
You've established that you have this opinion. I'm only asking about your argument. You've argued that there is some doubt as to what we owe the Afghan evacuees. I'm just trying to figure out what information you need to change your opinion one way or the other.
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Old 25th August 2021, 04:17 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Exactly. I have no doubt a few bad actors will try to sneak in among the refugees, I also think they will be screened out.
I am very concerned that the Islamic Jihadist threat, which has been fairly quiet, is going to wake up and become a major problem, but that does not
justify the kind of bigotry that the Orange FUngus promotes.
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Old 25th August 2021, 04:24 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
You've established that you have this opinion. I'm only asking about your argument. You've argued that there is some doubt as to what we owe the Afghan evacuees. I'm just trying to figure out what information you need to change your opinion one way or the other.
I would not describe the situation as if there is some doubt. The people that feel that way seem to have very little doubt.
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Old 25th August 2021, 04:29 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Surprise: Trump suggested today that many Afghan Refugees are terrorist in disguise....
He's not entirely wrong.

People posing ‘direct threat’ to UK found among potential Kabul evacuees
Quote:
Kevin Foster, a junior immigration minister, said: “We’ve had more hits on our ‘no fly’ list, that is people who are a direct threat to this country if they were able to come here, in the last week in the context of Afghanistan … than we would normally expect in a year of normal flights and travel


Originally Posted by Planigale
I think it is definitely in the US interest. In a similar situation in future if the US forces can say assist us and if all goes belly up and you were loyal we'll get you and your family out, the people are likely to be loyal. If they are afraid they'll be dumped then they'll hedge their bets and make deals with the (US's) enemy. It is just self interest and future proofing.
Yes, but it's not just about keeping their loyalty. Many of them may know stuff that we don't want the Taliban to extract from them, and it's also good PR - in fact right now I think it's all about the PR.

It's amazing how many people have suddenly grown a conscience over the last few days, after 20 years of not giving a moment's thought to the fate of a few towel-heads. Why are even hawkish republicans turning into bleeding heart liberals over this issue? One reason - Biden is president.

But do we 'owe them' anyway? As the invaders, who bombed and shot up the place, occupied much of the country and propped up a corrupt government for 20 years, I say we do. We owe them for all the damage we have done. This is not a matter of conscience, but property rights.
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Old 25th August 2021, 04:48 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Surprise: Trump suggested today that many Afghan Refugees are terrorist in disguise....
That's because Trump is a bigot an an *******. Thank God he lost the election and his Twitter/Facebook accounts.
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Old 25th August 2021, 04:52 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I would not describe the situation as if there is some doubt. The people that feel that way seem to have very little doubt.
But you're not sure so you have doubt and that's an opinion.
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Old 25th August 2021, 05:00 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
But you're not sure so you have doubt and that's an opinion.
What are you asking? Some people have presented some good explanations in this thread for their specific interpretation.
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Old 25th August 2021, 05:10 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
He's not entirely wrong.

Quote:
Quote:
Kevin Foster, a junior immigration minister, said: “We’ve had more hits on our ‘no fly’ list, that is people who are a direct threat to this country if they were able to come here, in the last week in the context of Afghanistan … than we would normally expect in a year of normal flights and travel
People posing ‘direct threat’ to UK found among potential Kabul evacuees


It's not as dire as that quote makes it out to be. There were five...a sixth person on the list was found to be no threat. From your link:

Quote:
Six people deemed a “direct threat” to the UK have been flagged up in security checks of would-be evacuees from Kabul, amid broader warnings that the Islamic State terror group is targeting British soldiers and officials at the airport.

The individuals were on Britain’s “no fly” list – although MPs were told in a briefing on Monday that one had made it to Birmingham airport, where many evacuees are landing. It is unclear what happened to the person next.

On Monday night, however, the Home Office said that the person who had reached the UK was “not a person of interest” to the security services or police upon “further investigation”. The individual, who had not been identified, had been allowed to enter the UK.
Quote:
Border Force officials said that another four people had been picked up as part of the screening process at Kabul airport being run by a mixture of Foreign Office and Home Office staff, while a fifth got as far as Frankfurt.
Quote:
Individuals can also be placed on the UK’s no fly list for a broad range of reasons, and it does not necessarily mean they represent an active terror threat as demonstrated by the Birmingham case –
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Old 25th August 2021, 06:02 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Hmm, I thought my post was more clear. Let me clarify...

The question isnt that they are owed something. The question is: how do you know what they are owed?
You didn't ask what they were owed, you clearly asked Why the US Owe. It's even in the Thread Title.

However on the what, the US offered these people peace and security, shouldn't they provide that?
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Old 25th August 2021, 06:09 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You didn't ask what they were owed, you clearly asked Why the US Owe. It's even in the Thread Title.

However on the what, the US offered these people peace and security, shouldn't they provide that?
Should they? no idea
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Old 25th August 2021, 07:49 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Should they? no idea
If I tell you that in return for your help I'll do something for you, and you help me, then am I not contracted to uphold my end to the agreement?
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Old 25th August 2021, 09:41 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
If I tell you that in return for your help I'll do something for you, and you help me, then am I not contracted to uphold my end to the agreement?
How many times does this have to be said?

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Old 25th August 2021, 10:02 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
If I tell you that in return for your help I'll do something for you, and you help me, then am I not contracted to uphold my end to the agreement?
Yes, of course.
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Old 25th August 2021, 10:23 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Yes, of course.
Then once more you have answered your own questions.
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Old 25th August 2021, 10:26 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Then once more you have answered your own questions.
Only if someone is actually making that claim.


I can concoct a lot of answers for a lot of claims made by other people....but I can't just substitute their (unstated) explanation with my explanation.
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Old 26th August 2021, 04:39 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Only if someone is actually making that claim.


I can concoct a lot of answers for a lot of claims made by other people....but I can't just substitute their (unstated) explanation with my explanation.
I have you ever thought about defending your own opinions, they ones you've already expressed?
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Old 26th August 2021, 05:13 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I have you ever thought about defending your own opinions, they ones you've already expressed?
Just as it isn't incumbent on the agnostic atheist to defend their rejection of a claim, it isn't incumbent on me to defend my rejection of claims.
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Old 26th August 2021, 08:09 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If one values their lives, then one does not necessarily owe them anything to provide benefits to them.
So throw out the word owe and nothing changes. You seem to have a problem with a word. I think there are books that can help you with that.
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Old 26th August 2021, 08:25 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
So throw out the word owe and nothing changes. You seem to have a problem with a word. I think there are books that can help you with that.
What do you mean throw it out? I'm not making a claim about it.
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Old 26th August 2021, 11:32 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What do you mean throw it out? I'm not making a claim about it.
Why do you keep saying that when it's not true?
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Old 27th August 2021, 04:07 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Why do you keep saying that when it's not true?
Because you and I disagree and I don't accept your interpretation. An atheist who mere rejects claims about deities is not making ila claim
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Old 27th August 2021, 04:27 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
So throw out the word owe and nothing changes. You seem to have a problem with a word. I think there are books that can help you with that.
He seems to be asking why reciprocity is the narrative instead of other motivations like empathy or some intrinsic good.
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Old 27th August 2021, 04:08 PM   #120
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I just wasted many minutes of my life reading this thread.
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