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Old 31st August 2021, 12:24 AM   #1
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Turning the US into a Christian Theocracy

Mod InfoThe first 14 posts of this thread originated in another thread but were split to allow discussion of the issues raised
Posted By:Agatha




Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
People keep missing the forest for the trees. The problem isn't fundamentally the tactics that the Taliban are using. The real problem is what the Taliban's goals are. When the goals themselves are evil, there are no means to achieving them which are acceptable.
Out of curiosity, how do you feel about those determined to turn the US into a Christian Theocracy?
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Old 31st August 2021, 12:34 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Out of curiosity, how do you feel about those determined to turn the US into a Christian Theocracy?
*** chuckling quietly to myself ***
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Old 31st August 2021, 03:29 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Out of curiosity, how do you feel about those determined to turn the US into a Christian Theocracy?
If you can’t even condemn the Taliban without trying to throw a punch at the right, you’re a moral ghoul.
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Old 31st August 2021, 04:00 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you can’t even condemn the Taliban without trying to throw a punch at the right, you’re a moral ghoul.
Apparently that hit a nerve.

See, to me, those that are trying to install a Christian Government and laws based on Christianity in western nations are really no better that those trying to install Islamic Governments and Sharia Law. Heck, 90% of Biblical Law and Sharia Law are identical. The only real difference is that those trying to install a Christian Theocracy aren't willing to get their hands dirty in doing the killing directly, they are more than happy letting others do it for them.
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Old 31st August 2021, 05:21 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh please. You aren’t fooling anyone.
I'm not trying to fool anyone, you are putting words in my mouth.

I was talking about a section of Christian Faudamentalism that believes in infiltrating politics and making laws based on the Bible as a way of turning the US into the Christian Nation they believe it to have supposed to have been.

If you want to equate them with all conservatives and right-wingers, I can't stop you, but please stop telling me what I mean.

And just to be clear, they don't just exist in the US, we have a number of them over here too, they just aren't as good at getting into positions of power.
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Old 31st August 2021, 05:31 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Biblical law isn’t even actually a thing.
Tell the to the Bible bashers!. They adhere to "God's Laws"

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/...ewart_1372.cfm

In the case Judaism, all 613 of them
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Old 31st August 2021, 05:44 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Tell the to the Bible bashers!. They adhere to "God's Laws"

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/...ewart_1372.cfm

In the case Judaism, all 613 of them
The Bible isn’t part of Judaism. And none of the references in your link are using “law” in the sense of human courts.
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Old 31st August 2021, 06:11 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The Bible isn’t part of Judaism. And none of the references in your link are using “law” in the sense of human courts.
how about these ones...

https://www.au.org/sites/default/fil...%202018-19.pdf

You might even recognise a bunch of the talking points.

That's the handbook for Project Blitz, a Theocratic Group that is infiltrating conservative politics with the desired outcome of turning the US into a Christian Theocracy.

ETA: I realise this is getting too much of a derail so I've asked the mods to split it off into a new thread.
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Old 31st August 2021, 06:27 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Biblical law isn’t even actually a thing.
Tell the to the Bible bashers!. They adhere to "God's Laws"

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/...ewart_1372.cfm

In the case Judaism, all 613 of them
OK.

Being of a charitable nature, I read that over and over, vainly hoping that some sense might emerge. Nope.

Biblical law is not a thing????????

Like hell it ain't.

Just why is it that those fervently defending the bible seem to have never read it? The stupid book of fairy tales absolutely lays down the "law" in no uncertain terms. No if's or but's. Bit like Judge Dredd, he is the LAW.

Biblical law is a real thing. Revelation actually says what will happen to you if you deny it.

Load of superstitious nonsense, of course, but if one denies the bible sets laws then the 10C are out the window for starters. That presents a problem.
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Old 31st August 2021, 06:30 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The Bible isn’t part of Judaism. And none of the references in your link are using “law” in the sense of human courts.
Beth Din.

Look it up.
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Old 31st August 2021, 06:32 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The Bible isn’t part of Judaism. And none of the references in your link are using “law” in the sense of human courts.
Ooooo. The Torah is no part of Judaism. Who knew?
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Old 31st August 2021, 06:37 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Biblical law is a real thing. Revelation actually says what will happen to you if you deny it.
Does no one understand context?

The Bible laws you refer to are how God will judge man. They are not rules for how man must judge other men. That is in stark contrast to Islam, which has explicit rules for how men are to judge other men. This is a very important, and very fundamental, difference. And this attempt to equate Christianity and Islam is deliberately ignoring it to try to draw that equivalency. And to what end? To excuse the Taliban, or to smear Christians as equivalent to them.
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Old 31st August 2021, 06:38 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Ooooo. The Torah is no part of Judaism. Who knew?
The Torah is not the Bible, despite considerable overlap. I thought everyone knew.
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Old 31st August 2021, 06:40 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Beth Din.

Look it up.
Jewish jurisprudence. Not Biblical, since again, the Bible is Christian, not Jewish.
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Old 31st August 2021, 11:19 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The Torah is not the Bible, despite considerable overlap. I thought everyone knew.
The Torah, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy , is part of the Tanakh which is the Hebrew Bible which Christians call the Old Testament.

Quote:
The contents of Tanakh and Old Testament are exactly the same but Tanakh groups and orders that content slightly differently from the Old Testament.
https://www.bibleversestudy.com/tana...-testament.htm
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Old 31st August 2021, 11:21 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Jewish jurisprudence. Not Biblical, since again, the Bible is Christian, not Jewish.
No, the New Testament is Christian. The Bible consists of both the Old and New Testaments. I thought everyone knew that.
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Old 31st August 2021, 11:23 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you can’t even condemn the Taliban without trying to throw a punch at the right, you’re a moral ghoul.
Nice dodge, guy.But you did give me a good laugh with your the Torah not being part of the bible.
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Old 31st August 2021, 11:27 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Does no one understand context?

The Bible laws you refer to are how God will judge man. They are not rules for how man must judge other men. That is in stark contrast to Islam, which has explicit rules for how men are to judge other men. This is a very important, and very fundamental, difference. And this attempt to equate Christianity and Islam is deliberately ignoring it to try to draw that equivalency. And to what end? To excuse the Taliban, or to smear Christians as equivalent to them.
Just to point out the obvious here, there have been things like banning homosexuality written into law based on the Bible. Mixed race marriages were against the law based on Christian Biblical beliefs. And that's without going into the abortion issue.
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Old 31st August 2021, 12:08 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Does no one understand context?

The Bible laws you refer to are how God will judge man. They are not rules for how man must judge other men. That is in stark contrast to Islam, which has explicit rules for how men are to judge other men. This is a very important, and very fundamental, difference. And this attempt to equate Christianity and Islam is deliberately ignoring it to try to draw that equivalency. And to what end? To excuse the Taliban, or to smear Christians as equivalent to them.
Christians use the Bible as a foundation for judging people, too. For example, the Puritans based their laws on the Bible.

Quote:
John Winthrop, a Puritan founder, instructed city magistrates to search the Scriptures for the proper ruling in every case. Later, John Cotton drafted a legal code with passages taken from the Bible. The criminal chapters were taken entirely from scripture, especially the law given by God to Moses. Originating law from scripture led the way to introducing previously unknown concepts including civil and due process rights.

John Cotton’s code formed the legal basis for several colonies and when the official code for Massachusetts was adopted, Cotton’s draft was heavily used. Section 65 stated, “No custome or prescription shall ever prevaile amongst us…that can be proved to bee morrallie sinfull by the word of God.” The scriptures were used and preferred to any law in court when deciding cases in the community. The word of God was literally part of the legal code.

It is important that you get an inspired understanding of scripture. American law in the beginning was based upon scripture.
https://josephsmithfoundation.org/puritan-law/

Even today, most anti-choice advocates base their belief that abortion should be illegal because the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill". The same holds true for the anti-same sex marriage view: homosexuality is a sin and God directed that marriage be between a man and a woman. It's an attempt to make criminal law based on Christian religious beliefs which is what Sharia is to Muslims.

ETA: Damn! Ninja'd by SGinger! Stupid telephone call!

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Old 31st August 2021, 12:55 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
If you can’t even condemn the Taliban without trying to throw a punch at the right, you’re a moral ghoul.

Will you be answering the question?
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Old 31st August 2021, 01:02 PM   #21
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It should be pointed out that the modern American fascist movement is a Christian fascist movement. Even a godless lech like Trump had to pretend to be a bible lover to appeal to his base of reactionary freaks.

I don't see how anyone can seriously claim there isn't a significant portion of the public that want to, and are constantly working to, install Christian authority over this country.
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Old 31st August 2021, 01:16 PM   #22
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The closest thing to a theocracy we have is the state of Utah which is overwhelmingly dominated politically and culturally by Mormons.
Quote:

Eighty-nine of the 103 lawmakers to be seated Jan. 19 (with one current vacancy) are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That’s 86%. Utah’s population is 60% Latter-day Saint, according to research by The Salt Lake Tribune. Latter-day Saints also hold 100% of the state’s congressional seats and statewide political offices, such as governor.

“That Mormon dominance is the most important fact about Utah politics, and it determines political outcomes. People don’t talk about it, but that’s what it is,” said retired Utah journalist Rod Decker, who wrote a book on the topic, “Utah Politics: The Elephant in the Room.”

One-time Democratic state Sen. Jim Dabakis, a former Latter-day Saint, sees religion as the main reason Utah laws are more conservative on liquor, gambling, abortion and gay rights, than the positions supported by voters in polls.
Quote:
“Utah is absolutely and totally gerrymandered by religion,” he said. “They throw all the non-Mormons together, and then they win their small allotment of seats — and then they have control of the other 90%.”
https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics...ay-saints-are/
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Old 31st August 2021, 03:24 PM   #23
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The desire by the religious right to inject creationism, and latterly ID, into science curricula is, to me, direct evidence of a plan to achieve a certain theocracy. The widespread anti-science attitude, in the nation that put men on the Moon, bespeaks of a certain success on that front.

I have for decades now looked upon the Christian fundies as brothers of the Muslim fundies.

Which is why I feel organized religion has passed its best by date, and must be allowed to pass into history.
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Old 31st August 2021, 03:24 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The Bible isn’t part of Judaism..
Really?

https://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/aboutisra...0religion.aspx

"The most important Jewish religious text is the Bible itself (what some Christians call the “Old Testament”), consisting of the books of the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings."

Oh dear!
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Old 31st August 2021, 03:33 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Really?

https://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/aboutisra...0religion.aspx

"The most important Jewish religious text is the Bible itself (what some Christians call the “Old Testament”), consisting of the books of the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings."

Oh dear!
AKA: the Tanakh
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Old 31st August 2021, 03:38 PM   #26
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American Christians - I'm not sure if they are the scariest of the religious nutters, the most pathetic, or both.
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Old 31st August 2021, 03:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
American Christians - I'm not sure if they are the scariest of the religious nutters, the most pathetic, or both.
I'd say the actual suicide cults are the most pathetic. The actual homicide cults are the scariest. American Christians are, by and large, not remotely either.
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Old 31st August 2021, 05:21 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Does no one understand context?

The Bible laws you refer to are how God will judge man. They are not rules for how man must judge other men. That is in stark contrast to Islam, which has explicit rules for how men are to judge other men. This is a very important, and very fundamental, difference. And this attempt to equate Christianity and Islam is deliberately ignoring it to try to draw that equivalency. And to what end? To excuse the Taliban, or to smear Christians as equivalent to them.
OK so you have not read it. Wouldn't it be easier to simply admit you have no clue what is in the magic book rather than tap-dancing around that fact?
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Old 31st August 2021, 05:30 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'd say the actual suicide cults are the most pathetic. The actual homicide cults are the scariest. American Christians are, by and large, not remotely either.
Considering they periodically bomb buildings or murder their enemies, you might want to re-calibrate.

For example, the anti-abortion zealots are pretty scary, especially if you're a medical provider that draws their ire.

Christianity varies quite a bit in this country. A lot of it is pretty much harmless, but there's certainly more than enough extremists to keep your blood pressure up.
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Old 31st August 2021, 05:42 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'd say the actual suicide cults are the most pathetic. The actual homicide cults are the scariest. American Christians are, by and large, not remotely either.
True...but the most suicide/ homicide Christian (or religion based) cults tend to be disproportionately Americans.

Manson Family, Jim Jones, David Koresh (Branch Davidians), Heaven's Gate, Love Has Won, Scientology, School of Prophets, Fundamentalist Mormons, Rajneeshpuram: The Oregon compound, etc.
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Old 31st August 2021, 07:33 PM   #31
Pacal
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I don't get this both my Jerusalem Bible and King James Bible have the Torah in them to say nothing od all sorts of other Old Testament Jewish writings. So how is the Bible not "Jewish", with the addition of the New Testament. (And most of the New Testament was written by Early Christians who were also Jews.)

And of course the Bible does contain actual laws. Like: This from Leviticus Ch. 20
From https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...20&version=NIV
Quote:
6 “‘I will set my face against anyone who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute themselves by following them, and I will cut them off from their people.

7 “‘Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the Lord your God. 8 Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

9 “‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head.

10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

11 “‘If a man has sexual relations with his father’s wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

12 “‘If a man has sexual relations with his daughter-in-law, both of them are to be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.

13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

14 “‘If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.

15 “‘If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he is to be put to death, and you must kill the animal.

16 “‘If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal.
And of course many Christians have used Old Testament Laws to excuse, justify certain laws. (Although with a lot of picking and choosing.)
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Old 31st August 2021, 07:34 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
True...but the most suicide/ homicide Christian (or religion based) cults tend to be disproportionately Americans.

Manson Family, Jim Jones, David Koresh (Branch Davidians), Heaven's Gate, Love Has Won, Scientology, School of Prophets, Fundamentalist Mormons, Rajneeshpuram: The Oregon compound, etc.
.....Children of God, Word of Faith Fellowship in North Carolina, Sullivanians, The Church of Euthanasia and of course not to forget the Ku Klux Klan.
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Old 31st August 2021, 07:40 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Considering they periodically bomb buildings or murder their enemies, you might want to re-calibrate.

For example, the anti-abortion zealots are pretty scary, especially if you're a medical provider that draws their ire.

Christianity varies quite a bit in this country. A lot of it is pretty much harmless, but there's certainly more than enough extremists to keep your blood pressure up.
This. ^^
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Old 31st August 2021, 08:20 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Christianity varies quite a bit in this country. A lot of it is pretty much harmless, but there's certainly more than enough extremists to keep your blood pressure up.
Here are a few links that you might need your meds for then.

The Family Netflix review by The Daily Beast

The Times on Christian Nationalism

Nearly half of Americans believe the US should base its laws on the Bible. 28% believe it should be forced on others.
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Old 31st August 2021, 09:39 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
OK, so that is between 1/4 and 1/3 of Americans who support the idea of...

Women being the property of their husbands
Slavery
Burning women at the stake for adultery
Stoning people to death for witchcraft or working on a Sunday
Crucifying people for being political agitators
The death penalty for children who strike or curse their parents
The death penalty for not believing in God, or believing in a different God

How very civilised these fundy Christians are.
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Old 31st August 2021, 10:33 PM   #36
PhantomWolf
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
OK, so that is between 1/4 and 1/3 of Americans who support the idea of...

Women being the property of their husbands
Slavery
Burning women at the stake for adultery
Stoning people to death for witchcraft or working on a Sunday
Crucifying people for being political agitators
The death penalty for children who strike or curse their parents
The death penalty for not believing in God, or believing in a different God

How very civilised these fundy Christians are.
I'm not sure that they'd consider it like that. They are more likely thinking about banning homosexuality, Transgenderism, teaching creation, having prayers and bible studies in schools. Those sorts of things. Of course, those that are behind it all, like the Blitz Project, want to see their version of The Handmaid's Tale came true.
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Old 31st August 2021, 10:54 PM   #37
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Old 31st August 2021, 10:58 PM   #38
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One of the biggest allies for the US in the Middle East is a major soursce of funding for the Taliban. Also in South Asia, the US has historically leaned towards supporting Pakistan. American foreign policy has no problems with supporting theocratic governments as long as it benefits them.
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Old 1st September 2021, 11:56 AM   #39
dudalb
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
OK, so that is between 1/4 and 1/3 of Americans who support the idea of...

Women being the property of their husbands
Slavery
Burning women at the stake for adultery
Stoning people to death for witchcraft or working on a Sunday
Crucifying people for being political agitators
The death penalty for children who strike or curse their parents
The death penalty for not believing in God, or believing in a different God

How very civilised these fundy Christians are.
No love for Fundy Christians, but only a reletively few believe in the complete application of Old Testament law. Most use a "The coming of Jesus Christ introduced a new covnanant and all of the Old Testament laws except for the Ten Commanments no longer apply".
I have a weird think about being accurate, even when it applies to people I really don't like very much.
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Last edited by dudalb; 1st September 2021 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 1st September 2021, 12:14 PM   #40
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
No love for Fundy Christians, but only a reletively few believe in the complete application of Old Testament law. Most use a "The coming of Jesus Christ introduced a new covnanant and all of the Old Testament laws except for the Ten Commanments no longer apply".
I have a weird think about being accurate, even when it applies to people I really don't like very much.
It's hard to say with any specificity what any non-orthodox Christian believes. That's kinda the whole point of decentralized Christianity, the bible says whatever a given pastor or church wants it to say. It's a giant choose your own adventure novel with lots of options. Every little strip mall parish is making up the rules as they go along to suit their needs.

And wouldn't you know it, often those rules end up affirming that deeply held bigotries are actually good and biblical. Also, God wants your pastor to be rich, so fork up the lettuce.
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