IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 14th September 2021, 08:44 AM   #201
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,765
Well again a post-fact world breaks everything with no possible solution.

That's always the problem and is always going to be the problem.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 09:06 AM   #202
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,407
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well again a post-fact world breaks everything with no possible solution.

That's always the problem and is always going to be the problem.
Perhaps we should focus on breaking the "post fact" world. Solid, irrefutable facts are sufficient to do so.

Decline to get emotionally invested in refuting the garbage. Simply present facts that cannot be refuted. (I know. It isn't easy to not react.)
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 09:06 AM   #203
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,837
This is an uncomfortable topic

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
People who are comfortable with being self-consciously evil are pretty rare. Most of the time people doing cruel things to their fellow man think they are doing the right thing.
Most of the time and most of the people, yes. I hope so anyway. But there's a subset of the population, and I think they cluster down there in the lowermost classes, who get a Roman-mob kind of thrill out of cruelty. Maybe I wouldn't think that if I hadn't grown up in rodeo country.

Lowermost classes: MY people, as I'm always saying. Now why would I do that?
__________________
If you would learn a man's character, give him authority.

If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 09:12 AM   #204
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,765
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Perhaps we should focus on breaking the "post fact" world. Solid, irrefutable facts are sufficient to do so.

Decline to get emotionally invested in refuting the garbage. Simply present facts that cannot be refuted. (I know. It isn't easy to not react.)
...

..

.

What do you think a post-fact world is?

Solid, irrefutable facts AREN'T A THING THAT EXISTS in it. How on Earth is it going to be sufficient to fight it?

We have to make being stupid painful again. Make it hurt. Make it have consequences.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 14th September 2021 at 09:16 AM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 10:09 AM   #205
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,407
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Solid, irrefutable facts AREN'T A THING THAT EXISTS in it. How on Earth is it going to be sufficient to fight it?
Nope. Solid, irrefutable facts are a thing. We should not back of from those. All to often, people back off when they know for certain that the facts are in their favour. That is how it works. Intimidate the facts in favour of the fantasy. And too often this is given a pass because we cannot hurt their itty bitty feelings for fear of giving offence. Or being suspended. Or banned. Has the truth fallen so low? Has the truth lost it's voice? Has the truth vanished?

Well, On this site, it is progressively losing it's way. Once upon a long ago, I could have told you you were idiotically wrong about some topic that we might have disagreed upon. (that's a hypothetical)

Not now.

IMHO, the mods are applying a ruleset from decades ago that simply no longer exists. Because the website no longer exists as it was back then. The world moved on. The website did not and the mods did not.

This might be a post that goes to AAH. I have no idea. Nevertheless, we live in a different world now. Mods can take that aboard or not.

The reality is that if not, the world will move along without them. Nothing they can do about that. The world turns. They control it not. I am a member of several fora. This intransigence to change of any sort happens nowhere else.

I do not blame the mods/admins. They are stuck with the cards they are dealt. If they are instructed then they are obliged to follow or be booted.

Dunno. Myriad has been in and out as a mod. That is normal to me. "I have time right now to operate as a mod." Some time later. "I have other things I need to take care of and can not act as a mod". And so on.

I have no issue with that. I have been that soldier on other sites. Real life happens. I have been criticised for prioritising my long dead mother in the critical cardiac unit over some stupid online game.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We have to make being stupid painful again. Make it hurt. Make it have consequences.
Wanna know what hurt the most? I have three siblings. I was the only one who stayed with him placed in the coffin
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 10:19 AM   #206
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,765
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Nope. Solid, irrefutable facts are a thing. We should not back of from those.
Great. How? How do we tell people who have rejected the concept of facts they are wrong?
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 10:24 AM   #207
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,039
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Great. How? How do we tell people who have rejected the concept of facts they are wrong?
Specifically when it comes to the matter of vaccine mandates, the battle over who is right or wrong has already been settled. Biden is the President, and seems likely that our current system has already vested (rightly or wrongly) enough sweeping authority into the presidency for him to him to be able to just order it.

I agree we have to accept we're living in a post fact world. Persuasion ain't what it used to be, so there's no point in bothering.

For any people out there who are still persuadable, just doing the mandate and allowing them to see the improvement with their own eyes is the most persuasive argument anyone can make.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 10:29 AM   #208
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 15,676
The internet is at the stage books where in the decades after the adoption of the Printing Press: the best science and exchange of ideas is being done, but also the biggest lies and fake story pamphlets are being disseminated.
My guess is that we have to wait until the mind manipulators have moved to beaming their messages into dreams before we get to reclaim the internet for facts.
__________________
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
-Anne Lamott
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 11:01 AM   #209
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,470
Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Not sure where I read it, but rewards (lottery tickets, money, food, etc) had practically no effect on vaccination rates.

What does seem to motivate people is fear, plain and simple.

And like was said above, not sure I care what motivates the unvaccinated. Put fear into them (don't care of what...the virus, death, suffering, pain, maybe money/job loss) and they will take the vaccine.
Agreed. I don't think fear of death is the biggest motivator because, subconsciously, I don't think most of them believe it will happen to them. But job loss when they're actually told by their company to get vaccinated or be terminated? Oh, yeah....
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 11:03 AM   #210
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,765
Take their money. Take their jobs. Take their kids. Take their freedom.

Give them all the pearls to clutch they ask for.

They will learn or be left behind. We will drag them, kicking and screaming if necessary, back into a world where exists and matter.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 11:07 AM   #211
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,039
Politically speaking, the mandates seem like a no-brainer for Biden and all.

It's an opportunity to take public, decisive action that makes the entire country better off in a way that is obvious to even the most politically indifferent, and it has the added benefit of marginalizing the Democrat's political enemies. The reactionary right has set up a perfect situation where Biden has the both the opportunity and good reason to punch them square in the nose to thunderous applause, why wouldn't he take it?

The only kink I could see is that it's impossible to know whether the SCOTUS will intervene and cut the legs out from under any such effort, but there's only one way to find out.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 14th September 2021 at 11:09 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 11:10 AM   #212
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,470
Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Most of the time and most of the people, yes. I hope so anyway. But there's a subset of the population, and I think they cluster down there in the lowermost classes, who get a Roman-mob kind of thrill out of cruelty. Maybe I wouldn't think that if I hadn't grown up in rodeo country.

Lowermost classes: MY people, as I'm always saying. Now why would I do that?
Yep. Cruelty and watching someone else get hurt. Frankly, that's how I've always seen boxing. I don't understand people who enjoy watching two people, usually men, beat each other up. Yeah, I know...there's skill involved, it's a sport, blah, blah, bah. It boils down to two people fighting until one gets knocked out or beaten to the point he can't go on. There is sick streak in many people who enjoy that kind of crap.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 01:18 PM   #213
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 52,695
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The internet is at the stage books where in the decades after the adoption of the Printing Press: the best science and exchange of ideas is being done, but also the biggest lies and fake story pamphlets are being disseminated.
My guess is that we have to wait until the mind manipulators have moved to beaming their messages into dreams before we get to reclaim the internet for facts.
Oh, please.
The idea that anything as open as the internet would somewho become an information superhighway without also becoming a total crap superhighway is ridiculous.
The Internet was NEVER some kind of exclusive repostiory for facts.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 01:23 PM   #214
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 18,945
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Politically speaking, the mandates seem like a no-brainer for Biden and all.

It's an opportunity to take public, decisive action that makes the entire country better off in a way that is obvious to even the most politically indifferent, and it has the added benefit of marginalizing the Democrat's political enemies. The reactionary right has set up a perfect situation where Biden has the both the opportunity and good reason to punch them square in the nose to thunderous applause, why wouldn't he take it?

The only kink I could see is that it's impossible to know whether the SCOTUS will intervene and cut the legs out from under any such effort, but there's only one way to find out.
Well they would have to overturn established precedent of its own court; they would have to rule that Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905) was wrongly decided, but yes, SCOTUS has overturned its own rulings on at least 300 occasions in 232 years, so that possibility certainly cannot be ruled out.
__________________
► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 01:25 PM   #215
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 18,945
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yep. Cruelty and watching someone else get hurt. Frankly, that's how I've always seen boxing. I don't understand people who enjoy watching two people, usually men, beat each other up. Yeah, I know...there's skill involved, it's a sport, blah, blah, bah. It boils down to two people fighting until one gets knocked out or beaten to the point he can't go on. There is sick streak in many people who enjoy that kind of crap.
Yup, Barbarians!

Looks like you and I agree on a lot more than just teaching and politics.
__________________
► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 02:45 PM   #216
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,470
Heart patient dies because ICU beds in 40+ hospitals are filled with mostly Covid patients in AL. But, ya know...the unvaccinated aren't hurting anyone else so it's their 'choice'.


Quote:
An Alabama man died of heart issues almost 200 miles from his home after he was turned away from more than 40 hospitals because their ICUs were full of COVID patients, according to reports.
Quote:
In DeMonia’s obituary, his family urged others to “please get vaccinated” in honor of Ray, adding that “he would not want any other family to go through what he did,” NPR reported.
Quote:
DeMonia’s daughter, Raven, told The Washington Post that it was “shocking” when the family was told there were no ICU beds anywhere close to home to treat her father.

Ray DeMonia, 73, of Cullman, Alabama, died Sept. 1 at Rush Foundation Hospital in Meridian, Mississippi, after suffering a cardiac event, according to his obituary, reported by NPR.
Quote:
Alabama hospitals have been maxed out in recent weeks, with about half of ICU beds occupied by patients with the coronavirus, according to NPR, which cited Johns Hopkins University.
https://www.ajc.com/news/man-dies-af...FNI24Y3AR3SZA/
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 02:47 PM   #217
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,407
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Great. How? How do we tell people who have rejected the concept of facts they are wrong?
Honestly? I do not know. Facts matter not. Reality matters not. Nothing matters.

It is rather depressing.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 05:00 PM   #218
Sherkeu
Master Poster
 
Sherkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 2,623
Immunity is the key. There are certainly people with 2 jabs from last Spring who are more compromised than a person who got the newer Delta variant this summer and recovered.
Mandating? No. That is not good science for each individual.
Immunity should be the qualifier, by vaccine OR natural exposure, not just the vaccines developed for the first variant from early 2020.

Give an option to test for immunity- for levels of antibodies and immune cells that fight COVID. Even a herd of cows is treated better than what is being proposed.
This may make it so that some "unvaccinated but immune" do not get a shot while some early vaxxed persons may need another....maybe even two more. Especially the older population. That is the way it works. This is what the latest studies are telling us. Responses fade...vaccines get dated.

Who wants to take away a doctors recommendation for these people?

If I had Delta before my appointment for the J&J shot in April, I would have canceled. Of course you would too! That is what is recommended. Wait AT LEAST 3 months after getting COVID. Even then you are just getting "even better" immunity but you are likely at or exceeding immunity of those who are vaccinated without getting any shots.

Yeah, sucks that you contracted it, but it extra sucks that the immunity you may have suffered for- and is the latest and greatest having come from the newest variants- means nothing to your rights to determine your own rational healthcare.

And this doesnt even address the fact that minorities will be adversely impacted by this...not in raw numbers, but in percentage of their communities- still the lowest uptake of vaccinations with a lot of lingering distrust, though it seems to be improving lately- mostly in the Hispanic segment.

It also does not address the fact that the delta spike is already abating- worldwide- and the implementation of this mandate will come waaaay too late for anything but a waste of time and money and hurt to businesses.

Until the next variant I suppose. Then we all get re vaxxed!

Last edited by Sherkeu; 14th September 2021 at 05:04 PM.
Sherkeu is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 05:30 PM   #219
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,482
Past infection is a mixed bag. Some people are sure they had it but were never tested. Some people have had false positive tests. So there needs to be some kind of verification of immunity via past infection.


Then there is this: CDC: New CDC Study: Vaccination Offers Higher Protection than Previous COVID-19 Infection
Quote:
The study of hundreds of Kentucky residents with previous infections through June 2021 found that those who were unvaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated. The findings suggest that among people who have had COVID-19 previously, getting fully vaccinated provides additional protection against reinfection.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 14th September 2021 at 05:33 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 06:03 PM   #220
Sherkeu
Master Poster
 
Sherkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 2,623
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Past infection is a mixed bag. Some people are sure they had it but were never tested. Some people have had false positive tests. So there needs to be some kind of verification of immunity via past infection.


Then there is this: CDC: New CDC Study: Vaccination Offers Higher Protection than Previous COVID-19 Infection
That is likely true pre-Delta. Not so much true in the data this summer through late August. Delta is so extremely more transmissible and it is EVERYWHERE.
Delta is now almost ALL of all new infections. (I read 99% but that seems so high!).

The vast majority of breakthroughs are from Delta. The symptoms of the fully vaccinated are from Delta. Those who had Delta are better protected, even if they didnt know they had it. Delta has been around January-now and millions of Americans were exposed.

I think we should test people to know antibody status. I want the option to make my own decision if I can get my own testing, ongoing. If California gov't wants to offer it free so people have better information...great! But my rights are not affected by their inability to offer good healthcare. If I had COVID delta this last August and have robust antibodies, my gov't should not be able to restrict my right to work if I dont get a (semi) outdated vaccine.

Sure, a shot of the vaccine after delta might make my risk some percent better than other recovered delta patients. But it is not worse than the vaccinated. Not worse than the booster-vaccinated either. Israel pre-print says natural immunity is 27x better. Not peer reviewed, but a lot of data behind it that actually makes sense.

So why would it be that I could not work without the gov't giving me a factory vaccine??

Last edited by Sherkeu; 14th September 2021 at 06:06 PM.
Sherkeu is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 06:16 PM   #221
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,482
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
That is likely true pre-Delta. Not so much true in the data this summer through late August. Delta is so extremely more transmissible and it is EVERYWHERE.
Delta is now almost ALL of all new infections. (I read 99% but that seems so high!).

The vast majority of breakthroughs are from Delta. The symptoms of the fully vaccinated are from Delta. Those who had Delta are better protected, even if they didnt know they had it. Delta has been around January-now and millions of Americans were exposed.

I think we should test people to know antibody status. I want the option to make my own decision if I can get my own testing, ongoing. If California gov't wants to offer it free so people have better information...great! But my rights are not affected by their inability to offer good healthcare. If I had COVID delta this last August and have robust antibodies, my gov't should not be able to restrict my right to work if I dont get a (semi) outdated vaccine.

Sure, a shot of the vaccine after delta might make my risk some percent better than other recovered delta patients. But it is not worse than the vaccinated. Not worse than the booster-vaccinated either. Israel pre-print says natural immunity is 27x better. Not peer reviewed, but a lot of data behind it that actually makes sense.

So why would it be that I could not work without the gov't giving me a factory vaccine??
How does a person know if they had delta?

I'm fine if people can prove they have immunity. Verbally telling me you have said immunity is not sufficient.

I can't comment on the Israeli data vs the CDC data without looking at both. I imagine both studies have different results due to timing given the delta surge.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 06:18 PM   #222
kevbo
Thinker
 
kevbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Rogue Valley, Oregon
Posts: 154
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yep. Cruelty and watching someone else get hurt. Frankly, that's how I've always seen boxing. I don't understand people who enjoy watching two people, usually men, beat each other up. Yeah, I know...there's skill involved, it's a sport, blah, blah, bah. It boils down to two people fighting until one gets knocked out or beaten to the point he can't go on. There is sick streak in many people who enjoy that kind of crap.
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yup, Barbarians!

Looks like you and I agree on a lot more than just teaching and politics.
While I did engage in a few successful bouts of fisticuffs as a young man, especially while in the navy, I will never forget the whooping I took when I climbed into the ring at a boot camp smoker on a dare and was paired against a young man who was a trained boxer.

Should not be viewed as a sport in my view, but definitely should be respected as a form of self-defense.
kevbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 06:31 PM   #223
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,149
I prefer Curly Howard's take on boxing: "I stood like this (classic Marquis de Queensbury pose) but not for long!"
__________________
“One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late.”

Dr. Brytney Cobia
Resume is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 06:58 PM   #224
kevbo
Thinker
 
kevbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Rogue Valley, Oregon
Posts: 154
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
I prefer Curly Howard's take on boxing: "I stood like this (classic Marquis de Queensbury pose) but not for long!"
kevbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 07:31 PM   #225
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,470
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
I prefer Curly Howard's take on boxing: "I stood like this (classic Marquis de Marquess of Queensbury pose) but not for long!"
FTFY. Scottish, not French.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 14th September 2021 at 07:34 PM.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 07:57 PM   #226
Sherkeu
Master Poster
 
Sherkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 2,623
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How does a person know if they had delta?

I'm fine if people can prove they have immunity. Verbally telling me you have said immunity is not sufficient.

I can't comment on the Israeli data vs the CDC data without looking at both. I imagine both studies have different results due to timing given the delta surge.
Antibody testing can detect how well a body can mount a defense to COVID, whether from the vaccine OR from naturally acquired antibodies- Delta or otherwise. Having a rule that immunity can ONLY count if it is from a mandated pharmaceutical vaccine is just anti-science. There is natural protection. Tens of millions likely have it. I think these persons should be exempted.

I also think that forcing vaccines too close to any persons infection (and such persons may not even realize the timing due to mild symptoms or none) is irresponsible. There have been cases of accidental double dosing of vaccines that caused hospitalizations in older patients, like that of an overdose.
We need to make sure the body can handle it. This is not one size fits all.

Do you really trust the fed gov't to mandate this? "Carte blanche" over the advice of an individuals' physician? And that they should lose their job should they have safe immunity, but not meet the 'injection' mandate?

I see some major flaws in this plan and the way it is presented only brings more animosity from those who have been hesitant.

I got mine in April. My 13yo daughter reached '2 weeks' past her second shot just today. We made that choice on our own. But I do question the mandate for others where it would not make sense to do the same.
Sherkeu is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 08:36 PM   #227
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 18,945
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Antibody testing can detect how well a body can mount a defense to COVID,.
Wrong

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...covid-immunity

Antibody Tests Should Not Be Your Go-To For Checking COVID Immunity

"There is no test that will give you that [degree of certainty] at this point," says Gigi Gronvall, a senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security who has studied serology testing and COVID-19. "There are tests that would show that you've been vaccinated or not, but is that going to be the kind of information you need?"

Maybe not, she suggests. Why? Antibody tests only give one view into the body's collection of defenses against the coronavirus. In fact, it's just a subset of antibodies, made in response to the virus or a shot of the vaccine, that neutralize the spike protein on the virus. The spike protein is what enables the coronavirus to break into cells and replicate.

"We have a mix of antibodies. Some of them are very good and protective. Some are not as protective," and each person will have their own mix of these different types of antibodies, says Ali Ellebedy, an immunologist at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis who's studying the antibody response to the coronavirus.

A key unanswered question for researchers like Ellebedy is just how many of these neutralizing antibodies are needed to block the virus?

Studies do show all three available vaccines in the U.S. — the shots from Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson — can successfully prompt people to produce neutralizing antibodies for the coronavirus variants, including delta. Natural infection with the virus also leads the immune system to produce antibodies that can disarm the virus, though doctors still recommend you get vaccinated even if you've had COVID-19 in the past, because the shots bolster your immune response, including your antibodies. But Ellebedy says that having detectable antibodies from a blood test six months after vaccination "only means that your immune system mounted a successful response then and that you have immune memory."

Short version. While antibody tests can show if you have had a vaccine or the virus, they cannot detect what your level of immunity is.
__________________
► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!

Last edited by smartcooky; 14th September 2021 at 08:40 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 09:07 PM   #228
Sherkeu
Master Poster
 
Sherkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 2,623
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Wrong

Short version. While antibody tests can show if you have had a vaccine or the virus, they cannot detect what your level of immunity is.
OK.
Both groups seems to have no deaths after 'exposure' and developing antibodies. More recent natural infections seem to do even better as to preventing breakthrough infections. Less likely to be in hospital.

So what is that case for vaccination after infection now, other than "it is still safe and even better." ????

Better yet, what is the case for these people to be denied the right to work?
What proof of natural infection would be good enough or recent enough for you if even the vaccinated can still get the virus and spread it? How would you measure immunity other than mandating shots developed in 2020?

If I had Delta variant, confirmed, and hospitalized a few weeks ago, but now recovered...am I now not eligible to work unless I get the jab before the end of the month? Do you think this is medically wise?

Last edited by Sherkeu; 14th September 2021 at 09:11 PM.
Sherkeu is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 09:39 PM   #229
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,482
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
...
Do you really trust the fed gov't to mandate this?
Now that Biden is in charge, yes. With Dump, not so much. I've been working with vaccines for decades. This nonsense about "mah freedumbs" is just that, stupid. Vaccines are mandated for all sorts of things and one that stood the test of the SCOTUS in early 1990s was a mandate for smallpox vaccine and that one actually had some dangerous adverse reactions. The point being smallpox was a disaster and needed to be controlled.

We have that same thing today, it's a bloody pandemic. Get over your (not you personally) nonsense about the government and get the friggin vaccine. Or lock yourself in your house until the pandemic is over.

Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
... "Carte blanche" over the advice of an individuals' physician? And that they should lose their job should they have safe immunity, but not meet the 'injection' mandate?
You can't be serious. More than a few doctors are as ignorant as a doorknob about vaccines and infectious diseases. I have a gazillion anecdotes I personally observed of doctors not having a clue about how infectious disease are transmitted.

Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
...I see some major flaws in this plan and the way it is presented only brings more animosity from those who have been hesitant.

I got mine in April. My 13yo daughter reached '2 weeks' past her second shot just today. We made that choice on our own. But I do question the mandate for others where it would not make sense to do the same.
The major flaws you speak of wouldn't matter one bit because no matter what Biden did the GOP would be outraged. In case you haven't noticed the GOP has been ginning up faux outrage over any and everything Democratic POTUSes do and have done since Bill Clinton. With Clinton the GOP took off on this damaging path in a very big way.

You live in the LA are right? Is it not mandated your neighbor can't just extend their new patio over onto your property? And unless you homeschool your daughter she had mandatory vaccinations to go to school. Nurses are mandated to get flu shots the same way they are mandated to follow infection prevention guidelines in their work.

The outrage over "mandates" is ginned up bull ****. Sorry but it is. It's a friggin pandemic and anyone not willing to get a vaccine and wear masks should go be a hermit in AK.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 14th September 2021 at 09:43 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 09:47 PM   #230
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,482
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Wrong

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...covid-immunity
[i][indent]
Antibody Tests Should Not Be Your Go-To For Checking COVID Immunity

[snipped for space]

Short version. While antibody tests can show if you have had a vaccine or the virus, they cannot detect what your level of immunity is.
To repeat the short version, different antibodies tell one different things. Get an antibody test today and it is likely looking for past infection. And those antibodies may drop down below detectible levels but the person might still mount a response when challenged by an infectious agent.

Testing vaccine antibodies is being done in research but I don't think I can order one for my patients yet, or for myself.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 14th September 2021 at 09:49 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 10:03 PM   #231
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,482
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
OK.
Both groups seems to have no deaths after 'exposure' and developing antibodies. More recent natural infections seem to do even better as to preventing breakthrough infections. Less likely to be in hospital.

So what is that case for vaccination after infection now, other than "it is still safe and even better." ????

Better yet, what is the case for these people to be denied the right to work?
What proof of natural infection would be good enough or recent enough for you if even the vaccinated can still get the virus and spread it? How would you measure immunity other than mandating shots developed in 2020?

If I had Delta variant, confirmed, and hospitalized a few weeks ago, but now recovered...am I now not eligible to work unless I get the jab before the end of the month? Do you think this is medically wise?
It is not contraindicated medically.

You have the Israeli data you posted about and the CDC data I posted about and we really don't have the data we need to say past infection offers superior protection to the vaccine. Typically natural infection does because it provides life long protection whereas killed vaccines need boosters.

But we are finding out that isn't always true. Immunity from a mild coronavirus disease (the kind that isn't deadly) for example, doesn't last very long. People get reinfected all the time. Do we know how long the protection from COVID infection lasts? We don't. So should we say past infection gets you protected for a few months but after that you need the vaccine?

The vaccine might wear off, natural immunity might wear off, and there is no reason to think the vaccine does anyone any harm if they had the natural infection before the vaccine.

Like I said, people need to get over it or go be a hermit somewhere. Unvaccinated people are preventing us from controlling this pandemic. You (again not you personally) are putting the rest of us at risk. Sorry, you just can't excuse that because you don't like the government mandating you get a vaccine.

The government mandates all kinds of things. This one is ginned up by the GOP. And as for "injecting" something into one's body, there are other mandates for that too. Refuse to get treated for an active case of tuberculous or maintain strict at home isolation and you'll find yourself locked up.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 14th September 2021 at 10:05 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 10:13 PM   #232
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 23,856
The good news from California is that mask and vaccine mandates are popular. In exit polling data, the vaccine mandates in California did better than the "No" votes for the recall by about three points so far. Data is still coming in but that's what's being reported right now.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 10:37 PM   #233
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 18,945
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The vaccine might wear off, natural immunity might wear off, and there is no reason to think the vaccine does anyone any harm if they had the natural infection before the vaccine.
In fact, research has shown that getting vaccinated after you have already been infected improves your immunity

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/...cid=mm7032e1_w

Summary

What is already known about this topic?
Reinfection with human coronaviruses, including SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, has been documented. Currently, limited evidence concerning the protection afforded by vaccination against reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 is available.

What is added by this report?
Among Kentucky residents infected with SARS-CoV-2 in 2020, vaccination status of those reinfected during May–June 2021 was compared with that of residents who were not reinfected. In this case-control study, being unvaccinated was associated with 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with being fully vaccinated.

What are the implications for public health practice?
To reduce their likelihood for future infection, all eligible persons should be offered COVID-19 vaccine, even those with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection.
__________________
► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 10:54 PM   #234
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,945
Good Twitter thread about a private company's vaccine mandate:

Quote:
COVID Update: With requirements rolling across the country, I called a company that implemented vaccine requirements last month.
Here is the experience & lessons for the rest of us. 1/

Background first. The company is based in the Midwest with 6000 people.
The workforce has salaried, factory workers and service center workers.
Their starting point was 70% of the staff vaccinated.
The CEO announced that by 10/1 everyone needed to be vaccinated. 2/

As we crept into September, the percentage of people vaccinated climbed from 70% to where they are today— 95%.
The vast majority of people needed a nudge & got vaccinated without protest. A lot of feedback was they felt good about the decision. 6/
Andy Slavitt on Twitter (Sep 14, 2021)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 10:56 PM   #235
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,470
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
In fact, research has shown that getting vaccinated after you have already been infected improves your immunity

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/...cid=mm7032e1_w

Summary

What is already known about this topic?
Reinfection with human coronaviruses, including SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, has been documented. Currently, limited evidence concerning the protection afforded by vaccination against reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 is available.

What is added by this report?
Among Kentucky residents infected with SARS-CoV-2 in 2020, vaccination status of those reinfected during May–June 2021 was compared with that of residents who were not reinfected. In this case-control study, being unvaccinated was associated with 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with being fully vaccinated.

What are the implications for public health practice?
To reduce their likelihood for future infection, all eligible persons should be offered COVID-19 vaccine, even those with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection.
Yeah...but's that sciency stuff. Who believes what those elitist doctors and scientists say? They're all socialistcommielibtards exceptin' fer Dr. Tenpenny. Now she's credible! I done seen those forks sticking to people cuz they've done been magneetized!
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 10:58 PM   #236
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,470
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Good Twitter thread about a private company's vaccine mandate:
Yep. When it's going to hit them in the wallet, all of a sudden excuses fly out the window.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 11:35 PM   #237
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 18,945
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yep. When it's going to hit them in the wallet, all of a sudden excuses fly out the window.
Yup. Cajole, persuade, coddle, wheedle, sweet-talk, coax, convince, induce, soft-soap, and urge as many as you can to get vaccinated.

Those that won't... Fire . Their . Arses!
__________________
► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2021, 02:51 AM   #238
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,945
I mentioned the fear of needles in another thread. If it is true that 25 percent of all people suffer from this phobia and that 16 percent may avoid the Covid vaccinations for this reason, it would be a good idea to address it directly in campaigns. It may also make the brave, heroic, anti-vaxxer freedom fighters look like cowards, which is just an added bonus, except when vaccine hesitancy is due to phobia.

Denmark seems to have hit the 25 percent ceiling now:
Share of people vaccinated against COVID-19, Sep 13, 2021: USA, Denmark, Iceland (Our World in Data)
- with only a few thousand vaccinations a day in spite of pop-up vaccinations at high schools and supermarkets. Iceland is doing better. Maybe fear of volcanoes helps overcome fear of needles ...

I think that the excuses mentioned by Andy Slavitt in the Twitter thread may often be a cover for the fear of needles:
Quote:
The most common answers people gave.
“It was inconvenient”
“I’ve been on the fence”
“I’m young/not at risk/have had COVID”

One of the most common was:
“Other people were getting vaccinated so I didn’t feel like I needed to”
Andy Slavitt on Twitter (Sep 14, 2021)

And if it is, they should be helped, not shamed.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 15th September 2021 at 02:58 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2021, 05:09 AM   #239
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 18,945
In NZ we are still vaccinating about 40,000 per day

59% have received at least one dose (which is 70% of the eligible population)
__________________
► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2021, 05:32 AM   #240
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,945
Yes, the vaccine hesitant segment of the Danish population is now the only ones still unvaccinated, which benefits New Zealand.
Share of people vaccinated against COVID-19, Sep 14, 2021: DK, NZ

ETA: But you'll have to vaccinate much faster to compete with Cuba:
COVID-19 vaccine doses administered: DK, NZ, CU
COVID-19 vaccine doses administered per 100 people, Sep 14, 2021: DK, NZ, CU
(They need to do it fast, unlike NZ.)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 15th September 2021 at 05:45 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:00 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.