ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags depression , psychiatry

Reply
Old 14th September 2016, 09:19 AM   #361
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,466
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I can't quite tell if you're disagreeing with my position, supporting my position, or simply throwing in an additional perspective at right angles.

I'm not very good at implied meaning and subtext
I have kind of lost track of what peoples positions are. So I am not really sure which I am either.

I well understand the benefits of psycho pharmacology. It is really interesting to feel joy after you forgot what it felt like because your brain really does work better on a low dose of an SSRI.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2016, 09:54 AM   #362
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,090
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I have kind of lost track of what peoples positions are. So I am not really sure which I am either.

I well understand the benefits of psycho pharmacology. It is really interesting to feel joy after you forgot what it felt like because your brain really does work better on a low dose of an SSRI.
I'm generally a proponent of psychiatric medicine too. My sister is bipolar, but has some other health issues. She took some psychotropic medicines for a while, and they definitely helped her. They ended up causing problems with her migraine medicines though, so once she reached some degree of stability with the drugs, she weaned off of them and started behavioral therapy. It's made a lot of difference. She's learning to identify her triggers, evaluate her reactions, and tell herself that her anger/anxiety is probably due to her disorder, and to hold off for a few minutes to get her head together. It's working surprisingly well for her so far.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2016, 12:14 PM   #363
Steve
Illuminator
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,645
I gather from the 8 pages of this thread that evidence for the ongoing failure of psychiatry is minimal, mostly limited to one-off examples, and similar in nature to the failures of numerous other fields of medicine. I gather further that the successes of psychiatry are similar in nature to the successes of numerous other fields of medicine. All fields of medicine are more successful today that they were 20 years ago, and all fields of medicine will in all likely-hood be more successful 20 years from now than they are today. Improvements in medicine are very much an ongoing process.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2016, 12:51 PM   #364
Jodie
Philosopher
 
Jodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,184
Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
I doubt that there are thousands of such trials; however, there is no need. My comment:

referred to the whole paragraph, not only the last sentence of my post.
In any case, my own casual familiarity with drug trials is that the trials for physchiatric drugs are generally smaller, include shorter timeframes, and are less rigorous regarding the criteria for efficacy.
Maybe you ought to look again, this is for prozac only:

https://trialbulletin.com/lib/trials/term=prozac
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd
Jodie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2016, 02:47 PM   #365
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 23,843
Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
A diagnosis of cancer is almost always accurate and usually a death sentence.
The subject was the "science that underlies psychiatry" and treatments, not the accuracy of diagnosis.

I cannot quite agree with "usually a death sentence" because
  • As you wrote "A combination of surgery, radiation and chemotherapy keeps patients alive -- sometimes for decades."
    The treatments often extend a patients life beyond their "death sentence". Personally I have seen relatives with cancer die of other causes first, e.g. heart attack instead of lung cancer (not that it was completely unrelated).
  • Some (many?) cancers can be cured completely.
    One example I know of is breast cancer (I have been to a couple of survivors of breast cancer events).
    Quote:
    The 5-year survival rate tells you what percent of people live at least 5 years after the cancer is found. Percent means how many out of 100. The average 5-year survival rate for people with breast cancer is 89%. The 10-year rate is 83%, and the 15-year rate is 78%.
    Cancer survival statistics
    Quote:
    Half (50%) of people diagnosed with cancer in England and Wales survive their disease for ten years or more (2010-11).

Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
A diagnosis of a psychiatric problem can often be inaccurate and even unwarranted.
IMO a diagnosis by a GP as seems the common case is likely to be inaccurate and even unwarranted. This is less likely when diagnosed by a psychiatrist.

Patients in general have to trust in the recommendation of their doctors because they do not have the skills to evaluate the treatments.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2016, 03:04 PM   #366
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,090
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
IMO a diagnosis by a GP as seems the common case is likely to be inaccurate and even unwarranted. This is less likely when diagnosed by a psychiatrist.
I think this is a really good point. No PCP would feel qualified to positively diagnose cancer. If they suspect cancer, they will consult an oncologist. It will be the oncologist that makes the final call on whether it is or is not cancer, often after additional tests to rule out false positives. The diagnosis of cancer is better defined that many psychiatric disorders, granted... but it would seem to me that the more defined the diagnosis the less you need a specialist with specialized knowledge and experience. And yet the opposite is the practice with respect to mental disorders. Many PCPs seem to feel qualified to make a diagnosis and prescribe treatment, despite a dearth of knowledge on that topic.

Part of this is undoubtedly due to perception. There's a lot of social stigma attached to mental disorders. There are a lot of people who don't want to see a psychiatrist or psychologist. There's still a perception that a diagnosis of a mental condition means there's "something wrong" with them as a person. I suspect this leads a lot of people to be slightly more likely to work with their PCP for something like depression or anxiety, and less likely to be willing to go see a specialist.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2016, 03:09 PM   #367
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 23,843
Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
You must be kidding me
No kidding, SashatheMagnificent.
There is the often misused argument from authority. The misuse is when a person is assumed to be right because they have authority. Listing a persons credentials does not automatically make them right for the basic reason that there can exist a person with similar or even more credentials with the opposite opinion.

Argument from authority can be correct, e.g. when the authority is backed by the consensus of their community or when they write an obviously correct opinion backed up by credible evidence (typically in scientific literature).

This is not the case for Dr Thomas Szasz whose opinions seemed based more on his politics than medical evidence.
Quote:
Szasz's main arguments
...
"Myth of mental illness"
...
"Patient" as malingerer
...
Separation of psychiatry and the state
...
Presumption of competence
...
Death control
...
Abolition of the insanity defense
...
Abolition of involuntary hospitalization
...
A person's right to drugs
That Wikipeda article has a contrary argument from the authority of Robert Evan Kendell, "CBE FRSE FRCP (28 March 1935−19 December 2002) was a Welsh psychiatrist. He was Chief Medical Officer of Scotland 1991−96, President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists 1996−99."

Still tilting at windmills commented on Szasz's "The myth of mental illness: 50 years later" essay
Quote:
Thomas Szasz’s essay misses several key points about the undoubted changes that psychiatry has undergone since he wrote his original screed against the discipline in 1961. Szasz fails to recognise that the discipline today acknowledges a neurological basis for much psychiatric illness. Thus, his fulminations against psychiatry for treating ‘mental illness’ is off-base. Szasz’s original diatribe was heavily against psychoanalysis. Yet today Freud’s doctrines can scarcely be said to play even a marginal role in psychiatry, and it is absurd to keep levelling the same old charges of 50 years ago. One has the feeling of looking at one of the last veterans of the Esperanto movement in confronting Szasz: lunacy at the time, bizarrely outdated today.

Last edited by Reality Check; 14th September 2016 at 03:12 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2016, 04:33 PM   #368
Perpetual Student
Illuminator
 
Perpetual Student's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,852
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The subject was the "science that underlies psychiatry" and treatments, not the accuracy of diagnosis.

I cannot quite agree with "usually a death sentence" because
  • As you wrote "A combination of surgery, radiation and chemotherapy keeps patients alive -- sometimes for decades."
    The treatments often extend a patients life beyond their "death sentence". Personally I have seen relatives with cancer die of other causes first, e.g. heart attack instead of lung cancer (not that it was completely unrelated).u
  • Some (many?) cancers can be cured completely.
    One example I know of is breast cancer (I have been to a couple of survivors of breast cancer events).

    Cancer survival statistics


IMO a diagnosis by a GP as seems the common case is likely to be inaccurate and even unwarranted. This is less likely when diagnosed by a psychiatrist.

Patients in general have to trust in the recommendation of their doctors because they do not have the skills to evaluate the treatments.
Sorry for the confusion. I assumed it was clear I meant "death sentence if there is no medical intervention." I see now that it was not clear. I do know quite a few people who are cancer survivors and some are in total remission.
In any case, cancer diagnoses are usually quite definitive whereas psychiatric diagnoses seem to be nebulous and ambiguous. That's not a big surprise; our understanding of the two diseases are on very different planes scientifically.
__________________
It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.
- Richard P. Feynman

ξ
Perpetual Student is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2016, 04:58 PM   #369
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,630
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I think this is a really good point. No PCP would feel qualified to positively diagnose cancer. If they suspect cancer, they will consult an oncologist. It will be the oncologist that makes the final call on whether it is or is not cancer, often after additional tests to rule out false positives. The diagnosis of cancer is better defined that many psychiatric disorders, granted... but it would seem to me that the more defined the diagnosis the less you need a specialist with specialized knowledge and experience. And yet the opposite is the practice with respect to mental disorders. Many PCPs seem to feel qualified to make a diagnosis and prescribe treatment, despite a dearth of knowledge on that topic.

Part of this is undoubtedly due to perception. There's a lot of social stigma attached to mental disorders. There are a lot of people who don't want to see a psychiatrist or psychologist. There's still a perception that a diagnosis of a mental condition means there's "something wrong" with them as a person. I suspect this leads a lot of people to be slightly more likely to work with their PCP for something like depression or anxiety, and less likely to be willing to go see a specialist.
I think it's also the continuum of severity in psychiatric presentment. You can be a little bit depressed ... but you can't be a little bit cancer-y. A GP feels pretty comfortable guessing about patients who aren't floridly psychotic.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2016, 03:08 AM   #370
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,466
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I think it's also the continuum of severity in psychiatric presentment. You can be a little bit depressed ... but you can't be a little bit cancer-y. A GP feels pretty comfortable guessing about patients who aren't floridly psychotic.
And that depends on the effectiveness of the treatments. If a patient ends up responding poorly to the treatments they feel comfortable prescribing they will send patients to a psychiatrist who knows the medicines in more depth and can more finely tune them to find what works for the patient.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2016, 08:37 AM   #371
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,443
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post

Part of this is undoubtedly due to perception. There's a lot of social stigma attached to mental disorders. There are a lot of people who don't want to see a psychiatrist or psychologist. There's still a perception that a diagnosis of a mental condition means there's "something wrong" with them as a person. I suspect this leads a lot of people to be slightly more likely to work with their PCP for something like depression or anxiety, and less likely to be willing to go see a specialist.
These are all real issues in doing mental health assessments

-under reporting of symptoms
-inaccurate history
-deliberate misrepresentation of history
-under reporting of life stressors lack of transparency regarding substance abuse

It takes good personal skills top get someone comfortable to talk to you about these things, hard to do in a two hour intake assessment
things that happened to me me regards intakes:
- crisis intervention in ER, family states repeatedly that the client had no prior psychiatric history (husband said this five times), his wife later found to have had three week hospitalization
- often one someone is comfortable and you re ask about symptoms they will reveal much much more, so common to deny ever thinking about suicide to admitting they do every day for months
- client's family swore they had never had a violent episode, two years later when they threatened a family member it turns out that the client had once tried to strangle someone
-substance abuse, wow so many stories

Then add on top of this that often it is hard to tell apart presentations until treatment has started, it can be very difficult to tell schizophrenia from florid mania. Often diagnosis changes as the client and doctor develop trust and learn to discuss and treat symptoms.

One young man I met, I would have sworn had fairly pronounced mania, however the doctor who has a longer history felt that they were in the onset of schizophrenia, because of gross confusion, negative symptoms and history.

Another client I worked with for three years went right down the line between both psychosis and OCD and had childhood sexual trauma as well, very complicated.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2016, 03:23 PM   #372
SashatheMagnificent
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 859
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The misuse is when a person is assumed to be right because they have authority.
I never said he was right

Last edited by SashatheMagnificent; 15th September 2016 at 03:28 PM.
SashatheMagnificent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2016, 03:27 PM   #373
SashatheMagnificent
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 859
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
There's a lot of social stigma attached to mental disorders.
Who defines whether a certain behaviour is a "disorder"
SashatheMagnificent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th September 2016, 04:05 PM   #374
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 23,843
Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I never said he was right
Was the YouTube video "Dr Thomas Szasz on Psychiatry" included in your post at random !

If you give a citation to support an assertion then you are telling us that you think that the citation is right. A citation to an opinion tells us that you think that opinion stated is right. Citing Dr Thomas Szasz's opinion tells us that you think he is right.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2016, 09:00 AM   #375
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,443
Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Who defines whether a certain behaviour is a "disorder"
Generally the individual who seeks assistance , when they make the choice to get intervention, clinically it should have marked or significant impairment in daily functioning.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2016, 09:01 AM   #376
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,443
Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I never said he was right
Just for clarification, then what was the point of you posting about Szasz?
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2016, 11:38 AM   #377
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,630
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Generally the individual who seeks assistance , when they make the choice to get intervention, clinically it should have marked or significant impairment in daily functioning.
And worth mentioning, that the approach is the same for any disease.

My sister rejects the claim that chicken pox is a 'disease' - in her mind, it's a "childhood experience" like puberty.

"Big medicine" is medicalizing chickenpox to sell vaccines.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2016, 12:39 PM   #378
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,443
Unless you are an adult with shingles
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2016, 12:59 PM   #379
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,090
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I think it's also the continuum of severity in psychiatric presentment. You can be a little bit depressed ... but you can't be a little bit cancer-y. A GP feels pretty comfortable guessing about patients who aren't floridly psychotic.
Fair point
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2016, 01:01 PM   #380
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,090
Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Who defines whether a certain behaviour is a "disorder"
Specialists with experience in that realm? Not sure how to answer this question, I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking how the DSM is developed? Or is it something more conceptual that you're after?
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2016, 01:22 PM   #381
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,630
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Unless you are an adult with shingles
My sister questions the medical validity of that, too (paraphrasing): "When we get old, a lot of things happen to us. Grey hair, reading glasses, and shingles. Why is shingles a (airquotes) medical diagnosis, but not the others? Answer: because it's profitable to say so. Wake Uuuuuuuup!"
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2016, 01:56 PM   #382
Jodie
Philosopher
 
Jodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,184
Have you ever had shingles? It's caused by residual herpes virus left over from when you had chicken pox as a child and I'm told it's excruciating. How can that not be a real diagnosis?
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd
Jodie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2016, 01:57 PM   #383
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,090
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
My sister questions the medical validity of that, too (paraphrasing): "When we get old, a lot of things happen to us. Grey hair, reading glasses, and shingles. Why is shingles a (airquotes) medical diagnosis, but not the others? Answer: because it's profitable to say so. Wake Uuuuuuuup!"
"reading glasses" isn't a medical diagnosis, but the degree to which one's eyesight has slipped is. It's a diagnosis given by an optometrist, who then writes a prescription for the appropriate lens strength. Granted, you can go to Walgreens and pick out some off-the-shelf glasses that work for you... but you can also take tylenol for a headache, and robitussin for a common cold. Both headache and common cold are diagnoses.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th September 2016, 02:54 PM   #384
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,443
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
My sister questions the medical validity of that, too (paraphrasing): "When we get old, a lot of things happen to us. Grey hair, reading glasses, and shingles. Why is shingles a (airquotes) medical diagnosis, but not the others? Answer: because it's profitable to say so. Wake Uuuuuuuup!"
Because it is an awful experience?
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2016, 01:57 AM   #385
Elaedith
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 755
Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
No, it simply means that even the level C evidence for cardiology is on a firmer foundation than for psychiatry.
Level C evidence is effectively no objective empirical evidence for the recommendation.

The view that this is not a problem in cardiology is not the conclusion reached by the authors.
Elaedith is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2016, 09:20 AM   #386
SashatheMagnificent
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 859
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I gather from the 8 pages of this thread that evidence for the ongoing failure of psychiatry is minimal, mostly limited to one-off examples, and similar in nature to the failures of numerous other fields of medicine. I gather further that the successes of psychiatry are similar in nature to the successes of numerous other fields of medicine. All fields of medicine are more successful today that they were 20 years ago, and all fields of medicine will in all likely-hood be more successful 20 years from now than they are today. Improvements in medicine are very much an ongoing process.
The causes of cancer are well known
The causes of paranoia are not well known
SashatheMagnificent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2016, 11:20 AM   #387
Steve
Illuminator
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,645
Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
The causes of cancer are well known
The causes of paranoia are not well known
That seems to have nothing to do with my post.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2016, 09:18 PM   #388
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,151
Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
The causes of cancer are well known
<snip>
Are they? For all cancers?
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th September 2016, 09:59 PM   #389
SashatheMagnificent
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 859
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Are they? For all cancers?
mostly
SashatheMagnificent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2016, 05:11 AM   #390
Jodie
Philosopher
 
Jodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 6,184
They might identify the types of cells in cancer but what causes it to suddenly start growing isn't known. If they did there would be a cure.
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd
Jodie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2016, 05:44 PM   #391
SashatheMagnificent
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 859
Here are few points where mental "illness" and physical illness are different

1) behind a diagnosis of cancer there is some objective science, blood analysis, X rays
behind a diagnosis of paranoia there is not some objective science, just guidelines that can vary according to specialist, culture, ..

2) a cancer is a cancer in la paz, moscow and manila
a holy man who sits for 16 hours a day in india can be seen as a holy man there and as a schizo in los angeles

3) a cancer today happens in the same way that happened 100 years ago
drapetomania was a mental illness 200 years ago and not today

4) you can use mental illness as an insult
you rarely use physical illness as an insult
SashatheMagnificent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2016, 05:50 PM   #392
SashatheMagnificent
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 859
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Was the YouTube video "Dr Thomas Szasz on Psychiatry" included in your post at random !

If you give a citation to support an assertion then you are telling us that you think that the citation is right. A citation to an opinion tells us that you think that opinion stated is right. Citing Dr Thomas Szasz's opinion tells us that you think he is right.
Quoting someone does not mean you agree with everything he says

Moreover, I do not find the tone of your comments very constructive, so you will forgive me if I do not pursue this discussion with you any further
Regards
SashatheMagnificent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th September 2016, 06:47 PM   #393
Reality Check
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 23,843
Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Quoting someone does not mean you agree with everything he says
I did not say that you agree with everything that Dr Thomas Szasz has ever stated because that is obviously not the case from your original post.

One disputed opinion does not support your assertion of "there are many psychiatrists and intellectuals who are not convinced that "mental illness" is an illness with an organic basis". One disputed opinion is not scientific literature. A reply listing the qualifications of Dr Thomas Szasz rather than stating his arguments or citing his papers is called argument from authority.

Last edited by Reality Check; 18th September 2016 at 06:48 PM.
Reality Check is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2016, 04:45 AM   #394
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 45,466
Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Here are few points where mental "illness" and physical illness are different

1) behind a diagnosis of cancer there is some objective science, blood analysis, X rays
behind a diagnosis of paranoia there is not some objective science, just guidelines that can vary according to specialist, culture, ..

2) a cancer is a cancer in la paz, moscow and manila
a holy man who sits for 16 hours a day in india can be seen as a holy man there and as a schizo in los angeles

3) a cancer today happens in the same way that happened 100 years ago
drapetomania was a mental illness 200 years ago and not today

4) you can use mental illness as an insult
you rarely use physical illness as an insult
Using a physical illness as an insult is just so lame after all.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2016, 08:17 AM   #395
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,443
Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Here are few points where mental "illness" and physical illness are different

...

4) you can use mental illness as an insult
you rarely use physical illness as an insult


Are you saying schizophrenia does not exist? Just because there are insults associated with the condition, or cognitive impairment from developmental disability doesn't exist because you can use 'retarded' as an insult?
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2016, 08:24 AM   #396
John Nowak
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 1,806
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
My sister questions the medical validity of that, too (paraphrasing): "When we get old, a lot of things happen to us. Grey hair, reading glasses, and shingles. Why is shingles a (airquotes) medical diagnosis, but not the others? Answer: because it's profitable to say so. Wake Uuuuuuuup!"
Because it can damage your vision?
__________________
>Reason being is that you guys appear to have absolutely no field experience in listening for invisible people in the forest. I do.

-historian
John Nowak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2016, 10:59 AM   #397
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,090
Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
The causes of cancer are well known
The causes of paranoia are not well known


Some of the causes of some cancers are relatively well understood; there's a ton out there that we really have very little information about.

We understand some of the causes of paranoia as well, but far from all of them.

That tends to happen a lot when the symptom can be the result of a wide variety of causes.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th September 2016, 11:41 AM   #398
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,090
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Using a physical illness as an insult is just so lame after all.
I kinda think Sasha underestimates the volume of insults available based on physical disabilities and disorders. Heck, there's an entire repertoire of jokes based on amputees!
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th September 2016, 10:30 AM   #399
The Norseman
Meandering fecklessly
 
The Norseman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,151
Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
mostly
No.
The Norseman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th September 2016, 10:48 PM   #400
SashatheMagnificent
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 859
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
No.
Educate yourself here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_cancer
SashatheMagnificent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:28 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.