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Old 23rd June 2016, 05:30 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
...
I'm approaching it from a different angle - that there's an idee fixe about psychiatry. Take the example of Autism that started this thread... it's not actually a psychiatric condition. It's (mostly) a genetic condition, squarely in the purview of Medicine. So why is Psychiatry in the firing line instead of medical genetics? Genetics hasn't found a cure for Autism either.
I don't think the lack of success in understanding of the causes of autism is a failure for either psychiatry or genetics. Both genetics and psychiatry are very young as scientific endeavors.
But, how might we define psychiatric conditions in a manner that would exclude autism? Autism is a malfunction of the mind/brain. Ultimately, there must be some physiological difference of the brain that causes autism -- i.e.: chemistry and/or structure. It seems to be a psychiatric condition/disorder very much under the purview of psychiatric treatment and research.
There are many psychiatric disorders that have a genetic link. Certainly, the genetic link to autism could lead to better understanding, but we are a long way from linking specific genetic characteristics to specific brain development and to specific structure/chemistry and understanding how such linkage is accomplished.
I think the use of the word "failure" in this context is inappropriate and reveals an ignorance of the science involved.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 06:49 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
I noticed the Atheist mentioned heart aspirin at 75g (European dose) where Luchog stated it was 81g (America dose).
81 mg, please!

I work with a psychiatrist for chronic depression and other issues. I am on a very low dose of a controlled substance so we do need some face time. It's not really talk therapy but he makes observations and I self-report potentially destructive behavior. He has recommended a talk therapist if I start to think I need it. Good therapists are not just "mates" and I would avoid taking medical advice from Crocodile Dundee.

Re; autism etc. Isn't all "mental" illness neurological? What else is there?

I recommend "Brain on Fire" as an intriguing read about a patient who presented with symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia. Luckily perhaps, she was in an epilepsy ward because she'd had a seizure. This might validate The Atheist's argument somewhat: Doctors were looking for an underlying physical pathology, and found one. Wilson's disease also has sent people to psychiatric hospitals. Toxoplasmosis can also alter thought.

I would not say psychiatry has failed. But it does perpetuate a sort of dualism that might not make sense medically. There are brain doctors and then there are mind doctors ... which is kind of odd as most medical specialties deal with detectable things that happen in a human *body*.

It's absurd to say aspirin is no longer used for pain. Of course it is and it works great. Four chewed-up aspirin with a chaser of caffeine can do a lot for a headache. Throw in a glass of water, it's probably a good idea. Aspirin also works locally in chewing gum, creams and even shampoo.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 08:51 PM   #163
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Oh my GOD.

Psychiatric drugs prevent more suicides than they cause by orders of magnitude. What is needed is an improvement of this ratio by reduced careless practice and lack of support, not ******** on the hardest medical practice in the world for trying, what the **** is wrong with the world that we talk about this?
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Old 24th June 2016, 06:59 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Re; autism etc. Isn't all "mental" illness neurological? What else is there?

Behavioural.

The fields of psychiatry and psychology recognize that there are two types of mental dysfunction - the neurological/neurochemical, and the behavioural. The former is inherent to the organism, and can be degenerative. It's treated primarily with medication, and supplemented with counseling to address co-morbid disorders and reactions, and provide mechanisms which enable the individual to better cope with the disorder over the long term. Behavioural disorders are learned, typically as a suboptimal mechanism for coping with difficult life circumstances. These are treated with psychological therapy and counseling, typically some variant of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, with the goal of changing the destructive behaviours, and creating productive ones. This is often supplemented with short- or long-term use of psychiatric or other mood-modifying medication to provide a measure of control over the most debilitating symptoms and enable the long-term behavioural modification to proceed more effectively.

Autism isn't an "illness" in that respect, it's a developmental disorder. It's not a dysfunction in the neurons or neurochemicals; but an alteration to how the brain itself develops, and is does not change once brain development is completed. It cannot be "treated" with medication, because it cannot be altered without fundamentally restructuring the brain, which at this time is impossible. However, medication can be used to treat common co-morbid disorders such as anxiety, and digestive system disorders. Psychological counseling is very useful for Autists, in order to help learn skills to cope with the disorder and function in a social environment.
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Old 24th June 2016, 09:48 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
I don't think the lack of success in understanding of the causes of autism is a failure for either psychiatry or genetics. Both genetics and psychiatry are very young as scientific endeavors.
But, how might we define psychiatric conditions in a manner that would exclude autism? Autism is a malfunction of the mind/brain. Ultimately, there must be some physiological difference of the brain that causes autism -- i.e.: chemistry and/or structure. It seems to be a psychiatric condition/disorder very much under the purview of psychiatric treatment and research.
There are many psychiatric disorders that have a genetic link. Certainly, the genetic link to autism could lead to better understanding, but we are a long way from linking specific genetic characteristics to specific brain development and to specific structure/chemistry and understanding how such linkage is accomplished.
I think the use of the word "failure" in this context is inappropriate and reveals an ignorance of the science involved.
Absolutely. There's always overlap... just as another analogy, there are cancers (oncology) with genetic root causes (medical genetics) that are aggravated by environmental factors (epidemiology)... so when a critic announces that the lack of a cure is arbitrarily the responsibility of only one of the fields, I develop a suspicion that there's another motive behind the special pleading.

Autism is more squarely in the medical genetics 'zone' than mood disorders and schizophrenia, because it's so clearly a developmental disorder and ultimately architectural. This is why there are no 'transient' versions of autism, as compared to schizophrenia, where most patients only have one brief episode in their lives that resolves from natural compensation. The physiology is fine, but the biochemistry is out of sync.

A comparison is my godbrother (godmother's son?) who had a head injury as a child. The presentment from the brain lesions is behavioral, which puts management in the purview of psychiatry, but if his continued challenges are a 'failure' I'm not sure psychiatry deserves more blame than the surgical specialty that couldn't repair the damage.
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Old 24th June 2016, 11:24 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
81 mg, please!
Good spot. 81 g of aspirin looks like being fatal.

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I work with a psychiatrist for chronic depression and other issues. I am on a very low dose of a controlled substance so we do need some face time. It's not really talk therapy but he makes observations and I self-report potentially destructive behavior. He has recommended a talk therapist if I start to think I need it. Good therapists are not just "mates" and I would avoid taking medical advice from Crocodile Dundee.

Re; autism etc. Isn't all "mental" illness neurological? What else is there?

I recommend "Brain on Fire" as an intriguing read about a patient who presented with symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia. Luckily perhaps, she was in an epilepsy ward because she'd had a seizure. This might validate The Atheist's argument somewhat: Doctors were looking for an underlying physical pathology, and found one. Wilson's disease also has sent people to psychiatric hospitals. Toxoplasmosis can also alter thought.

I would not say psychiatry has failed. But it does perpetuate a sort of dualism that might not make sense medically. There are brain doctors and then there are mind doctors ... which is kind of odd as most medical specialties deal with detectable things that happen in a human *body*.

It's absurd to say aspirin is no longer used for pain. Of course it is and it works great. Four chewed-up aspirin with a chaser of caffeine can do a lot for a headache. Throw in a glass of water, it's probably a good idea. Aspirin also works locally in chewing gum, creams and even shampoo.
Very good post - much appreciated to see a voice of reason.

(The only note I'd make is that I did not say aspirin was no longer used for pain, just that it was a minor usage, which apart from being hyperbolic, is still correct, but that red herring is buried, hopefully.)
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Old 24th June 2016, 11:48 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Behavioural.

The fields of psychiatry and psychology recognize that there are two types of mental dysfunction - the neurological/neurochemical, and the behavioural.
There are other categories... this was the purpose of the axes in DSMIV. Another one is Axis III 'medical'. eg: Down's Syndrome (Trisomy 21 &c), brain lesions from trauma or surgery.

Autism has been moved around on the axes, from II to I, and the DSMV committee discussed migrating it to III for the reasons I described earlier, but that became moot when they scrapped the Axes model entirely.
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Old 24th June 2016, 01:11 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
There are other categories... this was the purpose of the axes in DSMIV. Another one is Axis III 'medical'. eg: Down's Syndrome (Trisomy 21 &c), brain lesions from trauma or surgery.

Autism has been moved around on the axes, from II to I, and the DSMV committee discussed migrating it to III for the reasons I described earlier, but that became moot when they scrapped the Axes model entirely.

Developmental disorders and traumatic brain injury are a different beast entirely than the "mental illness" that is being discussed in this thread.
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Old 24th June 2016, 01:52 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Developmental disorders and traumatic brain injury are a different beast entirely than the "mental illness" that is being discussed in this thread.
There's been some drift. The Atheist's case example of 'psychiatry failure' in the opening post was an autistic patient who was not cured yet.
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Old 25th June 2016, 10:10 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Absolutely. There's always overlap... just as another analogy, there are cancers (oncology) with genetic root causes (medical genetics) that are aggravated by environmental factors (epidemiology)... so when a critic announces that the lack of a cure is arbitrarily the responsibility of only one of the fields, I develop a suspicion that there's another motive behind the special pleading.

Autism is more squarely in the medical genetics 'zone' than mood disorders and schizophrenia, because it's so clearly a developmental disorder and ultimately architectural. This is why there are no 'transient' versions of autism, as compared to schizophrenia, where most patients only have one brief episode in their lives that resolves from natural compensation. The physiology is fine, but the biochemistry is out of sync.

A comparison is my godbrother (godmother's son?) who had a head injury as a child. The presentment from the brain lesions is behavioral, which puts management in the purview of psychiatry, but if his continued challenges are a 'failure' I'm not sure psychiatry deserves more blame than the surgical specialty that couldn't repair the damage.
Good points! It would seem that expecting a "cure" for autism would be somewhat analogous to expecting a cure for someone born without a limb.
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Old 25th June 2016, 11:12 AM   #171
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That's a horrible analogy. Humans can't grow back limbs, but the brain is plastic

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...ticle22608412/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4563147/

http://discovermagazine.com/2013/oct/12-brain-benders

It must be noted that the evidence for improving the lives of people with autism with novel approaches is far from perfect, but, at least they are pursuing such exciting avenues...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_therapies
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Old 25th June 2016, 05:19 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
That's a horrible analogy. Humans can't grow back limbs, but the brain is plastic

Not that plastic.

Quote:
It must be noted that the evidence for improving the lives of people with autism with novel approaches is far from perfect, but, at least they are pursuing such exciting avenues...

As someone on the autistic spectrum myself, the idea of a "cure" is... problematic verging on unpleasant at best. There is certainly a need for treatment and assistance to enable people with autism, particularly those with the more severe forms, to improve their ability to function in mainstream society, but that's a long way from a "cure". There has been too much misinformation promulgated, and outright abuse of autistic people, in some cases resulting in death, in the name of "curing" them.

It's not a pathogen that can be "cured". It's a developmental disorder.
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Old 25th June 2016, 05:24 PM   #173
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I don't disagree, didn't say there was a cure or that plastic meant you can shape any part into whatever you want.

No one can improve the functioning of a limb that has been chopped off or regain or grow any of that ability. Pretty solid point, I thought.
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Old 25th June 2016, 05:51 PM   #174
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Anyone who read my last few posts, here's someone who is slightly more worth your time to read on the same subjects I posted on.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...ay-of-healing/
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Old 26th June 2016, 02:57 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
(The only note I'd make is that I did not say aspirin was no longer used for pain, just that it was a minor usage, which apart from being hyperbolic, is still correct, but that red herring is buried, hopefully.)
You remain wrong, The Atheist:
17 June 2016: If sales revenues = usage, the numbers show that only a few % more people take Aspirin™ Cardio rather than Aspirin™. This is evidence against The Atheist's "most" (90% or 75% or "main" or whatever goal posts he moves to next) assertion.

17 June 2016: The sales revenue from aspirin for heart health were slightly less than for general health in 2013.
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Old 28th June 2016, 10:29 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
Good points! It would seem that expecting a "cure" for autism would be somewhat analogous to expecting a cure for someone born without a limb.
That analogy came up before, and the defense was something along the lines of "Well, psychiatry has still failed because they haven't made progress akin to advanced prosthetics that we see in Medicine"

My argument is a bit different: why is the autism example not also a failure of Medicine, since it's a medical condition, or a failure of epidemiology, since care is a social concern. These specializations shrugged their shoulders, admitted "we got nuthin" and dumped the care on psychiatry because the presentment resembles other cognitive and behavioral conditions that fall under the scope of psychiatry.
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Old 28th June 2016, 10:51 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Not that plastic.




As someone on the autistic spectrum myself, the idea of a "cure" is... problematic verging on unpleasant at best. There is certainly a need for treatment and assistance to enable people with autism, particularly those with the more severe forms, to improve their ability to function in mainstream society, but that's a long way from a "cure". There has been too much misinformation promulgated, and outright abuse of autistic people, in some cases resulting in death, in the name of "curing" them.

It's not a pathogen that can be "cured". It's a developmental disorder.
One of the other things that's probably in play with the OP example is that a lot of severe autists are polymorbid. The developmental impact can be heavily associated with mental delay / low IQ, fragile X, epilepsy, chromosomal disorders, others. This is the main reason there's a 'spectrum' - many autists have other things going on, and the presentment produces a gradient in the population, with a heavy skew toward low functionality unfortunately. The OP's example patient sounds pretty impacted, I suspect there are other medical conditions not mentioned in the article that complicate management.

ref: [Conditions comorbid to autism spectrum disorders]
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Old 28th June 2016, 06:02 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
That analogy came up before, and the defense was something along the lines of "Well, psychiatry has still failed because they haven't made progress akin to advanced prosthetics that we see in Medicine"

My argument is a bit different: why is the autism example not also a failure of Medicine, since it's a medical condition, or a failure of epidemiology, since care is a social concern. These specializations shrugged their shoulders, admitted "we got nuthin" and dumped the care on psychiatry because the presentment resembles other cognitive and behavioral conditions that fall under the scope of psychiatry.
I am questioning whether the word "failure" applies in the first place. It is not a failure of medicine that one cannot grow or replace a missing limb.
I have an autistic nephew and a grandson with a missing missing a hand. My grandson has adapted to his difference remarkably well; there is little that he is incapable of doing that a two handed person can do. He compensates by employing strategies with his other hand, his body and his truncated limb.
On the other hand, with many years of training, my nephew is limited but is able to communicate and function reasonably well. It seems to me that his training has allowed his brain to employ compensating strategies -- somewhat analogous to my grandson -- but much more limited in efficacy.
Science in not even close to having some magic wand to employ in either example. In any case, calling this a "failure" is utter nonsense.
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Old 29th June 2016, 07:01 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
Science in not even close to having some magic wand to employ in either example. In any case, calling this a "failure" is utter nonsense.

And yet, some people have no problem accusing the field of mental health sciences of "failure" under those exact same circumstances.
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Old 11th July 2016, 01:16 PM   #180
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Strangely, this isn't from The Onion:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...nic-possession
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Old 11th July 2016, 01:31 PM   #181
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Some accredited doctors are cranks. Wow we should make it illegal for shrinks to support religion? Most practicing psychiatrists in the country will be appalled by this crap. Again you have made no point. Where does the academy support this? Nowhere. The title of the thread is ****.
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Old 11th July 2016, 01:47 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Strangely, this isn't from The Onion:
Obviously you do not understand that the religious beliefs of a psychiatrist is irrelevant to this thread.
As a psychiatrist, I diagnose mental illness. Also, I help spot demonic possession. has this psychiatrist even stating that the majority of psychiatrists would not agree with his beliefs.

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Old 11th July 2016, 10:04 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Obviously you do not understand that the religious beliefs of a psychiatrist is irrelevant to this thread.
What a nonsensical statement - of course it's bloody relevant; the bloke is a doctor and he's ignoring his training to use magical thinking. You couldn't get something more relevant!

Sure, it's only one doctor, but it's bloody funny all the same.
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Old 11th July 2016, 11:53 PM   #184
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Not as funny as this total joke of a thread.
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Old 12th July 2016, 01:53 AM   #185
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There are plenty of real doctors that also practise homoeopathy and/or acupuncture. So what is new?
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Old 12th July 2016, 02:15 AM   #186
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This is what happens when you have a deep need to feel smarter than everyone else.
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Old 12th July 2016, 02:44 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
There are plenty of real doctors that also practise homoeopathy and/or acupuncture. So what is new?
Glad to see you don't class psychiatrists as real doctors.

Well played.
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Old 12th July 2016, 03:13 AM   #188
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Even if that was meant purely as a joke, really ****** joke.
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Old 12th July 2016, 04:23 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Glad to see you don't class psychiatrists as real doctors.
That was a result English not being my mother tongue. I meant to make a distinction between certified doctors and quacks.
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Old 12th July 2016, 01:44 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
What a nonsensical statement - of course it's bloody relevant; the bloke is a doctor and he's ignoring his training to use magical thinking.
That is multiple nonsense, The Atheist!
  1. One psychiatrist is not every psychiatrist and so is irrelevant to this thread.
  2. This psychiatrist explicitly states that the majority of psychiatrists would disagree with his belief in demonic possession.
  3. Read what you cited - this psychiatrist is not using his beliefs in his practice. He is using his beliefs when he works with exorcists.
As a psychiatrist, I diagnose mental illness. Also, I help spot demonic possession.
Quote:
How a scientist learned to work with exorcists.
...
It’s an unlikely role for an academic physician, but I don’t see these two aspects of my career in conflict. The same habits that shape what I do as a professor and psychiatrist — open-mindedness, respect for evidence and compassion for suffering people — led me to aid in the work of discerning attacks by what I believe are evil spirits and, just as critically, differentiating these extremely rare events from medical conditions.
That "respect for evidence" is of course wrong!

Speaking of thinking that 1 psychiatrist is every psychiatrist - do you still think 1 company is many companies?
14 June 2016 The Atheist: How many drug companies misreported suicide attempts and suicidal thoughts events in the paper that the news article you cited reported on?
Further explained in
24 June 2016 The Atheist: Even easier for you, this is the relevant part of the abstract: "In the summary trial reports on Eli Lilly’s website, almost all deaths were noted, but all suicidal ideation events were missing, and the information on the remaining outcomes was incomplete."
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Old 12th July 2016, 01:55 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
What a nonsensical statement - of course it's bloody relevant; the bloke is a doctor and he's ignoring his training to use magical thinking. You couldn't get something more relevant!

Sure, it's only one doctor, but it's bloody funny all the same.
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/i...-for-exorcism/

Instead of condemning psychiatry as a whole it just calls into question the suitability of the guy from having a job in psychiatry. Firtjermore it calls into question the Washington Post's decision to publish his op-Ed.
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Old 12th July 2016, 04:28 PM   #192
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The Atheist simply refuses to read Novella, several articles refuting his insane claims have been posted in multiple threads with no response. If the Atheist simply went to theness,com, searched for "psychiatry" and read all of those articles, that would be amazing. It's something I have personally done, so take my advice, do that, before you continue to believe and post nonsense.
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Old 12th July 2016, 04:58 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Steven Novella lists several problems with Richard Gallagher's evidence for demonic possession. One is
A Psychiatrist Falls for Exorcism
Quote:
I have also heard patients voice statements of astonishing venom. I am sure Gallagher knows that mentally ill does not mean ignorant or unintelligent. I have met patients who had an uncanny social sense for other people’s vulnerabilities. If you spend a lot of your mental time thinking you are possessed, some will probably get good at it.
The classic example of the last sentence is Munchausen syndrome where some patients get really good at faking or exaggerating medical conditions to get attention. Richard Gallagher seems to make no attempt to test whether the "possessed" people he has encountered are undergoing a form of Munchausen syndrome or other attention seeking disorder.
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Old 17th July 2016, 12:06 PM   #194
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Too disgusted to comment:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11676336

Please, don't insult anyone's intelligence by suggesting the problem is administrative rather than medical. Each and every one of the cases and facilities are managed and all actions approved by, psychiatrists.

Some of the lowlights:

Quote:
A handful of sites failed basic tests such as patient access to fresh air, water, or meaningful activities.
Quote:
The Human Rights Commission and the Office of the Ombudsman believe the findings highlight systemic issues, including the continued dominance of "punitive" treatment instead of a therapeutic approach.
Just as well all of the doctors at these institutions make the following oath at the commencement of their careers:

“The health of my patient will be my first consideration, and I shall act in the patient's best interest when providing medical care.”

I admit, there could be a rider after that I missed. "...unless they're nuts."

Caps boy in 5....4....3.....
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Old 17th July 2016, 03:40 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Too disgusted to comment:
A rather irrelevant to this thread news article which is in actual fact not about psychiatry .
There is not much new in the news article - the ongoing audits of NZ mental health and disability wards, dementia units and forensic hospitals by Ombudsman’s inspectors was first mentioned on 8 June 2016:
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Locked in isolation: Lack of clarity around patient seclusion

Ashley is one of the few reported cases of long term seclusion . The article suggests 5 or 6 reported cases in the last 5 years with the caveat that some faculties are not monitored so cases may be unreported.
This is a follow-up to the prolonged seclusion of autistic man Ashley Peacock NZ Herald news article.
Quote:
The reports detail three other cases at that level - each arguably a breach of our international human rights obligations - as well as dozens of other examples of poor quality care at the 50 sites examined since 2010....
Analysis of the documents back to 2010 found the same issues cropped up repeatedly: the inappropriate and ongoing use of seclusion and restraint; overcrowding; untrained staff; unsafe, rundown or not fit-for-purpose facilities; and a lack of proper documentation about the detention of patients.
Any one with basic reading comprehension can read the listed causes above and see that they are financial and administrative. Another example: if one actually reads the documents then the commendations from the Ombudsman Office is to clarify the restraint procedures - not to abolish them.

Last edited by Reality Check; 17th July 2016 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 17th July 2016, 10:01 PM   #196
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The Ongoing Failure of This Thread to Make Sense

It sucks horribly.
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Old 25th August 2016, 12:24 PM   #197
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There's fail, then there's fail.

I thought the psychiatric industry's dealing with troubled teens was bad, but that pales into insignificance against babies being prescribed antipsychotics.
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Old 25th August 2016, 02:00 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
There's fail, then there's fail.
And then there is utter failure to understand the real world, e.g. what you cite !

A fantasy about the failure of the "psychiatric industry"'s dealing with troubled teens because the news article is mainly about one bad psychiatric institution (Island View). The general comments are about private residential treatment facilities (boarding schools, military-style boot camps, wilderness programs).

Psychiatric Drugs For Babies? More Kids Aged 2 And Under Getting Prescribed Antipsychotics
Quote:
There is very little research on the efficacy of these types of drugs to help treat behavioral problems in the very young. However, some mental health experts believe that the trend is a continuation of a much larger issue — that it’s quicker (and more financially desirable for health care providers) to prescribe pills to treat mental health problems.
If drugs are shown to help young children with mental issues then the question becomes what is the lower limit of the age of suitable patients?
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Old 25th August 2016, 02:26 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
And then there is utter failure to understand the real world, e.g. what you cite !

A fantasy about the failure of the "psychiatric industry"'s dealing with troubled teens because [url="http://testkitchen.huffingtonpost.com/island-view/troubled-teen-industry/"]the news article is mainly about one bad psychiatric institution ...
Where's that Patrick Stewart facepalm emoticon when I need it?

Of course it's one institution, which as you note yourself, and I quote: "one bad psychiatric institution"

What industry do you think should be accountable for it? The fire service? Electricians?

Or maybe you think it's the only one?

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
If drugs are shown to help young children with mental issues then the question becomes what is the lower limit of the age of suitable patients?
Now, that I do have an emoticon for:



From the link:

...despite the lack of evidence that shows they are effective and safe for young children.

...
“antipsychotics should be prescribed with care,” as they can cause significant physical and neurological changes, especially in the very young.


Where have the drugs been shown to help babies?
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Old 25th August 2016, 03:10 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
What industry do you think should be accountable for it?
The simple real world fact that you are ignoring is that one private institution is not the entire psychiatric industry, The Atheist ! The news article documents the failure of that single private institution.

An inability to read my post deserves a I quoted "despite the lack of evidence that shows they are effective and safe for young children." This is a question, not an assertion: If drugs are shown to help young children with mental issues then the question becomes what is the lower limit of the age of suitable patients?

Last edited by Reality Check; 25th August 2016 at 03:21 PM.
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