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Tags atheism , China incidents , China issues , christian persecution , gosateizm

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Old 15th September 2018, 07:21 AM   #401
Lukraak_Sisser
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Yes, those atheists (if they truly are and not just saying so to keep their jobs) are acting monstrous. Noone here denied that. They just deny your leap of 'logic' that because they are behaving badly, all atheists are monsters or even that all atheists agree with them.

You keep dodging the question that if the catholic church clearly harboured and protected pedophiles, then by that same logic all catholics feel that pedophilia must be legal and endorsed.
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Old 15th September 2018, 07:35 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Yes, those atheists (if they truly are and not just saying so to keep their jobs) are acting monstrous. Noone here denied that. They just deny your leap of 'logic' that because they are behaving badly, all atheists are monsters or even that all atheists agree with them.

You keep dodging the question that if the catholic church clearly harboured and protected pedophiles, then by that same logic all catholics feel that pedophilia must be legal and endorsed.
Certainly they have denied it, hell look at the second post, look at the posts repeating rank propaganda. Further, I have endeavored to be quite careful to avoid saying that makes all atheists monsters, certainly the Marxist ones we are discussing and their apologists are acting like monsters.

“Dodging” a question that has nothing to do with this thread? Do you think I or anyone else is dumb enough to fall for such a blatantly fallacious derail. For Pete’s sake if you had posted “and you are lynching negroes” might have made it just as obvious that you are attempting deflect criticism from these on going human rights violations.

Take a look at the article I linked just up above. Let’s endeavor to use critical thinking going forward, please?

Last edited by The Big Dog; 15th September 2018 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 15th September 2018, 08:27 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Certainly they have denied it, hell look at the second post, look at the posts repeating rank propaganda. Further, I have endeavored to be quite careful to avoid saying that makes all atheists monsters, certainly the Marxist ones we are discussing and their apologists are acting like monsters.
Nobody is defending forced abjurations in this forum.

The second post says:
“Yeah, it is. But the idea that you think that this is characteristic of atheism rather than an activity of the totalitarian government of China is even more appalling.”

I don’t see any defence of Chinese’s government religious politics. Quite the opposite: "Yeah, it is [apalling]".
You see visions.

Arthwollipot was telling you an evident true that you have not understand along the whole forum.

Let us see:

Many Catholic priests like to rape children. This is a monstrous act. I hope you would agree.
There are Catholics that like to rape children. Do you agree?
They rape the children because they are Catholic. Do you agree?

I hope that your high intelligence would be able to understand where the logic mistake lies. (In reality, I am not so sure).

Last edited by David Mo; 15th September 2018 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 15th September 2018, 08:41 AM   #404
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For a more nuanced understanding of the event: http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Beiji...39;-44513.html and https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/ea...rch-in-beijing

Obviously is an attack of the municipal Beijing Police against underground —unauthorized— Protestant churches. It is not an attack of the Atheism against Christianity.
It's just that you have to know how to look for the news.

Last edited by David Mo; 15th September 2018 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 15th September 2018, 08:47 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Nobody is defending forced abjurations in this forum.

The second post says:
“Yeah, it is. But the idea that you think that this is characteristic of atheism rather than an activity of the totalitarian government of China is even more appalling.”

I don’t see any defence of Chinese’s government religious politics. Quite the opposite: "Yeah, it is [apalling]".
You see visions.

Arthwollipot was telling you an evident true that you have not understand along the whole forum..
No, let’s walk through it, together.

Tbd: Here is something that is appalling
Response: yeah, it is but even more appalling is a post on the internet.

That should show you that our correspondent does not believe it is appalling the slightest, indeed a post on the ******* internet is worse.

They are putting a million Muslims in re-education camps, but even worse is TBD was mean to atheists on the iSkep!
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Old 15th September 2018, 08:53 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
For a more nuanced understanding of the event: http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Beiji...39;-44513.html and https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/ea...rch-in-beijing

Obviously is an attack of the municipal Beijing Police against underground —unauthorized— Protestant churches. It is not an attack of the Atheism against Christianity.
It's just that you have to know how to look for the news.
Folks, you have to “know how to look for the news.” So absolutely make sure that the articles you look for are so limited, err “nuanced,” that they don’t mention putting million Muslims in re-education camps.

Guys, y’all got to know what to look for, ya see.
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Old 15th September 2018, 09:21 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Folks, you have to “know how to look for the news.” So absolutely make sure that the articles you look for are so limited, err “nuanced,” that they don’t mention putting million Muslims in re-education camps.

Guys, y’all got to know what to look for, ya see.

You're changing the subject. Before we move on to the issue of mususlmans, we should clarify the issue of clandestine Protestant churches. This is the subject with which you started the thread and to which Arthwollipot responded. Do not manipulate the data. you arealso manipulating my comments by skipping the reasoning I gave you. Probably because you don't know what to say. Your propaganda slogans are finished and you deflate like a balloon.
For more information on the problem of the Beijing churches, I suggest you to consult the following links, which give a very different view of what you were saying.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-ch...-idUKKCN1LQ07O

http://asianews.it/news-en/Beijing%E...39;-44892.html

https://www.christianpost.com/news/b...-worse-226413/

https://www.christianpost.com/news/c...hgoers-226201/


As you can see, no people forced to abjure and no people beaten to death. No martyrs in this Coliseum. The story of Quo vadis?you was telling us is over.
The reasons for closing churches were political. You can see how other "official" churches work without too many problems.
http://www.beijingbaptistchurch.org/
http://www.china.org.cn/english/TR-e/41245.htm
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Old 15th September 2018, 09:22 AM   #408
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I would like to know your response to this:

Many Catholic priests like to rape children. This is a monstrous act. I hope you would agree.
There are Catholics that like to rape children. Do you agree?
They rape the children because they are Catholic. Do you agree?

I hope that your high intelligence would be able to understand where the logic mistake lies. (In reality, I am not so sure).

Thank you.
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Old 15th September 2018, 09:25 AM   #409
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And I'll tell you one thing that will surely surprise you, since you don't have much idea what Marxism is. If the Chinese government needs all that mess of official and unofficial churches, it's because it's not Marxist. It is strange, is it not? It is something similar to current Christians who have nothing Christian in the evangelical sense of the word. If Jesus the Messiah were to raise his head, he would run back to the tomb.

Last edited by David Mo; 15th September 2018 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 15th September 2018, 09:38 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I would like to know your response to this:

Many Catholic priests like to rape children. This is a monstrous act. I hope you would agree.
There are Catholics that like to rape children. Do you agree?
They rape the children because they are Catholic. Do you agree?

I hope that your high intelligence would be able to understand where the logic mistake lies. (In reality, I am not so sure).

Thank you.
Expect him to quote you but then ask you a question about the 2017 Vegas Shooting and make an ill-formed correlation and then proclaim atheists are behind all mass shootings. He won't, however, actually address your question.
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Old 15th September 2018, 10:23 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I answered your question. Sorry you did not like the answer.

Why did you just duck my question? Are these atheists acting like monsters?

Yes or no.

Why is so difficult for CCL apologists to stay on topic?
Meh, I don't believe in "monsters" either, so your term is too undefined for me to answer yes or no to.
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Old 15th September 2018, 11:01 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
And I'll tell you one thing that will surely surprise you, since you don't have much idea what Marxism is. If the Chinese government needs all that mess of official and unofficial churches, it's because it's not Marxist. It is strange, is it not? It is something similar to current Christians who have nothing Christian in the evangelical sense of the word. If Jesus the Messiah were to raise his head, he would run back to the tomb.

I just took a look at this website (marxist.org) with a collection of links to all the things that Marx and Engels ever wrote about religion and atheism. It's surprisingly little! (Most of the links are to texts where they only touch marginally upon the themes of religion and atheism.)
The introduction to Marx's "A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right (1844; more than 20 years before he published the first volume of Capital), the text with the famous sentence, "Religion is the opium of the people," still seems to be the major part of what Marx had to say about this them: He explained briefly what religion was - and that was it! It seems as if he didn't find the theme particularly interesting after this, and he went on to dedicate the rest of his life to the critique of political economy, culminating with Capital.
I can see why it may be disappointing to TBD that the author of the alleged Marxist Atheist Bible wasn't particularly interested in religion ... or atheism, but that is the fact of this case: The obsession of Chinese rulers with religion doesn't have anything to do with Marx and his writings.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th September 2018, 11:31 AM   #413
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I’m changing the subject by mentioning China’s crackdown on Muslims.

Wow.

Then ask a grossly off topic and completely illogical question about priests.

You cannot make this stuff up.
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Old 15th September 2018, 11:35 AM   #414
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Fellas. Hi! As should have been obvious by now, no one is claiming that the people running the CCP are the best Marxists, but they make up for in spades by pushing the firm Marxist atheist party line, and throwing about a million Muslims in re-education camps.
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Old 15th September 2018, 12:19 PM   #415
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And what exactly is supposed to be Marxist or atheist about that party line?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th September 2018, 12:22 PM   #416
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
And what exactly is supposed to be Marxist or atheist about that party line?!
ask Chairman Xi, that is what he is claiming in order to establish Firm Marxist Atheism, and if you want to claim he is a more firm atheist than Marxist, I ain't gonna bother quibbling with you
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Old 15th September 2018, 12:41 PM   #417
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Well, Trump claims that he's a very stable genius. I don't believe him, but you believe Chairman Xi.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th September 2018, 12:43 PM   #418
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Well, Trump claims that he's a very stable genius. I don't believe him, but you believe Chairman Xi.
‘k
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Old 15th September 2018, 01:14 PM   #419
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What actual Marxists think of China:
Superpower China? (Ruthless Criticism, 2009)
“Change” in the United States’ Policy towards East Asia (Ruthless Criticism, 2009)
America’s “Pacific Century” and its New Rival: China (GegenStandpunkt, 2013)
China’s progress on the path to financial power and world power (GegenStandpunkt, 2016)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 15th September 2018 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 15th September 2018, 03:28 PM   #420
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog
‘k
Sure,

Ooh Eeh
Ooh Ah A-Ah
Ting Tang
Walla Walla Bing Bang

(On our way to post #500, are you pleased?)
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Old 15th September 2018, 04:40 PM   #421
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If we get to blame all atheists for this then we get to blame all christians for, well, pretty much every war related death for the last 1500 years.


In China between 1850 and 1864 christians murdered about 20 ******* MILLION Chinese citizens. (That would be like a quarter of a billion people in today's population.) Kind of hard to blame China for being weary of creator cults after that, especially christian ones.
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Old 15th September 2018, 05:00 PM   #422
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
If we get to blame all atheists for this then we get to blame all christians for, well, pretty much every war related death for the last 1500 years.


In China between 1850 and 1864 christians murdered about 20 ******* MILLION Chinese citizens. (That would be like a quarter of a billion people in today's population.) Kind of hard to blame China for being weary of creator cults after that, especially christian ones.
Is that why they put a million muslims in detention camps?

Ok, you get 500 to 1900, atheists get 1900 on.
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Old 15th September 2018, 05:19 PM   #423
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I would like to know your response to this:

Many Catholic priests like to rape children. This is a monstrous act. I hope you would agree.
There are Catholics that like to rape children. Do you agree?
They rape the children because they are Catholic. Do you agree?

I hope that your high intelligence would be able to understand where the logic mistake lies. (In reality, I am not so sure).

Thank you.
By the way, this exact argument is being made right now on this forum, and I dare say that every atheist snowflake whining about unfair treatment has made this exact insipid argument repeatedly
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Old 15th September 2018, 05:24 PM   #424
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Sure,

Ooh Eeh
Ooh Ah A-Ah
Ting Tang
Walla Walla Bing Bang

(On our way to post #500, are you pleased?)
11 pages, So I'd say yes.
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Old 15th September 2018, 06:38 PM   #425
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I just took a look at this website (marxist.org) with a collection of links to all the things that Marx and Engels ever wrote about religion and atheism. It's surprisingly little! (Most of the links are to texts where they only touch marginally upon the themes of religion and atheism.)
The introduction to Marx's "A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right (1844; more than 20 years before he published the first volume of Capital), the text with the famous sentence, "Religion is the opium of the people," still seems to be the major part of what Marx had to say about this them: He explained briefly what religion was - and that was it! It seems as if he didn't find the theme particularly interesting after this, and he went on to dedicate the rest of his life to the critique of political economy, culminating with Capital.
I can see why it may be disappointing to TBD that the author of the alleged Marxist Atheist Bible wasn't particularly interested in religion ... or atheism, but that is the fact of this case: The obsession of Chinese rulers with religion doesn't have anything to do with Marx and his writings.
I don't know, this quote from your link seems pretty definitive in what Marx felt about religion:

Quote:
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness.
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Old 15th September 2018, 09:19 PM   #426
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
By the way, this exact argument is being made right now on this forum, and I dare say that every atheist snowflake whining about unfair treatment has made this exact insipid argument repeatedly
I'm not a snowflake and I haven't been whining. Hack away dude. I only wish you would state your case in clear, unrepentant English.

Anyone else with me on that?
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Old 15th September 2018, 09:52 PM   #427
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
I'm not a snowflake and I haven't been whining. Hack away dude. I only wish you would state your case in clear, unrepentant English.

Anyone else with me on that?
I wasn’t replying to you.

Bit baffled given that I have posted repeated links to third party sources regarding the atrocities going on in China right now and you claim that I have not stated my “case” clearly enough for you?

Imagine the CCP destroying churches intending and arresting clergy and putting a million Muslims is camps.

What exactly are we finding not clear about that?

Walk me through what is perplexing you.

Anyone else have difficulty understanding the atrocities?
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Old 15th September 2018, 11:11 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ok, you get 500 to 1900, atheists get 1900 on.

See, this is why I like you The Big Dog. I just hate everything you believe in.

ETA: Also, I hope the "you" was to atheists and not to me. They make the exact same logical error theists do. One believes in something without any evidence. The other one does not believe in something without any evidence.

The logical position would be say neither theory is evidenced.

Also, the entire use of the terms atheist and theist is a big scam (similar to a black-or-white fallacy or a law of the excluded middle) by religions to make people forget all of the other possibilities for existence.

For instance: This could all be a simulation ran by a very advanced but also very normal human person. Therefore a simulation ran by a normal person, not a god.

And even that has subsets. It could be a simulation where the person has full control and can change anything. It could be a simulation where the person has no control and can only view. It could be a simulation where the person has no control and can't even pause, and therefore can only view one time and place at a time. Or perhaps where the person has full control but chooses to do nothing. Or even a simulation that a person had full control of but has been abandoned.*

And there are dozens more scenarios, all quite different. It is frankly stupid to have terms like atheist and theist when there are so many possible reasons for the existence that we are experiencing. It is just another of the many weird things that people learn when they are raised in a creator cult or in a society dominated by creator cults.


*In fact, all of those subsets could also apply to a traditional god type creator as well.
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Old 16th September 2018, 12:00 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I don't know, this quote from your link seems pretty definitive in what Marx felt about religion:
Quote:
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness.

It is! But look at the context of this sentence:
Written: December 1843-January 1844;
Karl Marx[9] (German: [maɐ̯ks]; 5 May 1818 – 14 March 1883)

The guy was 25 when he wrote A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right, which started with the sentence:

Quote:
For Germany, the criticism of religion has been essentially completed, and the criticism of religion is the prerequisite of all criticism.

So he begins this introduction to a book that isn't about religion, but about Hegel’s Philosophy of Right, by declaring that, in Germany, the job of criticizing religion has already been done - by Feuerbach, about whom Marx wrote his famous Theses on Feuerbach, ending with the sentence:

Quote:
Philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways; the point is to change it.

He agreed with Feuerbach's critique of religion but basically said that where an atheist stops, i.e. with the critique of religion, that is the point is where a communist, a revolutionary, begins: by changing the conditions that make people religious!

Quote:
Feuerbach (...) does not see that the ‘religious sentiment’ is itself a social product, and that the abstract individual that he analyses belongs in reality to a particular social form.
We're done with the criticism of religion now, so let's change, i.e. overthrow, this society, "that vale of tears of which religion is the halo," is what he says (in 'Introduction'). We have moved beyond criticizing the poor suckers who believe in a god;
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the criticism of Heaven turns into the criticism of Earth, the criticism of religion into the criticism of law, and the criticism of theology into the criticism of politics.
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The criticism of religion ends with the teaching that man is the highest essence for man – hence, with the categoric imperative to overthrow all relations in which man is a debased, enslaved, abandoned, despicable essence, relations which cannot be better described than by the cry of a Frenchman when it was planned to introduce a tax on dogs: Poor dogs! They want to treat you as human beings!
(doesn't sound much like what the CCP is doing, does it?! We know how they treat factory workers!)

What Marx is basically saying is that if you are serious about wanting to abolish religion, you have to transcend atheism. And if you take a look at some of our resident atheists on this forum, it's pretty obvious why! They are smug and complacent because they've made the marvelous discovery that God isn't real, and because they are so clever, they now spend their time inventing condescending names for God like 'Sky Daddy,' as if criticizing religion consisted in nothing more than pissing off Christians.
Unlike Marx, they seem to be stuck in this stage much like people who never manage to move beyond the stage of a tantrum-throwing toddler. They may claim that they want to abolish religion, but they never actually get to the point where they do something real about it. Instead they
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call on them [Christians] to give up their illusions
but what Marx points out is that
Quote:
to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions.

Abolishing religion requires the abolition of the condition that makes people turn to religion, the miserable living conditions of most people.
Hard-core atheists are just pretend abolishioners of religion. Communists are the ones who actually do something about the conditions that make people turn to religion.

The CCP may be atheists, but they sure as hell ain't commies!
Commies know that conditions like these are bound to make people seek solace in delusions! And TBD's only concern is that (some of) the delusional are being persecuted - a weird way of declaring herself a victim by proxy! TBD doesn't seem to be concerned with the way the CCP treats its ordinary workers, but if it exhibits the audacity to destroy their churches ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 16th September 2018, 12:05 AM   #430
David Mo
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
By the way, this exact argument is being made right now on this forum, and I dare say that every atheist snowflake whining about unfair treatment has made this exact insipid argument repeatedly
That you repeatedly refuse to respond to this objection that ridicules your basic argument is quite an answer.
Thank you.

By the way, have you read the articles I linked before? Have you anything to say about them? Neither? Your silence is also a significant comment. When your mantras are questioned you stand with your mouth open.

A word of advice: put aside your mantras. Find out from diversified sources and think about what your opponents are telling you. Consider the possibility that they may be right. You will improve your dialectic ability that doesn't reach a very high level now. You're welcome.

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Old 16th September 2018, 12:31 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
(...)
What Marx is basically saying is that if you are serious about wanting to abolish religion, you have to go transcend atheism. And if you take a look at some of our resident atheists on this forum, it's pretty obvious why! They are smug and complacent because they've made the marvelous discovery that God isn't real, and because they are so clever, they now spend their time inventing condescending names for God like 'Sky Daddy,' as if criticizing religion consisted in nothing more than pissing off Christians.
Unlike Marx, they seem to be stuck in this stage much like people who never manage to move beyond the stage of a tantrum-throwing toddler. They may claim that they want to abolish religion, but they never actually get to the point where they do something real about it. Instead they
but what Marx points out is that


Abolishing religion requires the abolition of the condition that makes people turn to religion, the miserable living conditions of most people.
Hard-core atheists are just pretend abolishioners of religion. Communists are the ones who actually do something about the conditions that make people turn to religion.

The CCP may be atheists, but they sure as hell ain't commies!
Commies know that conditions like these are bound to make people seek solace in delusions! And TBD's only concern is that (some of) the delusional are being persecuted - a weird way of declaring herself a victim by proxy! TBD doesn't seem to be concerned with the way the CCP treats its ordinary workers, but if it exhibits the audacity to destroy their churches ...
Very interesting, unusual and revolutionary comment. It makes you want to become a Marxist!

My self-critique: we atheists like to criticise theists because the debate is not dangerous in “civilised” countries at least. The problem is when you bumps into the Church —any church— in a not so civilised country. Your problems begin and they may be no minor problems. This is so that Stalin was right —even against Marx— and pointed the Orthodox Church as a big obstacle for social justice. The problem with Stalin is that he confronted the problem with his characteristic brutality and lack of respect to justice. But the basic idea was right.

But to blame the present Chinese government for Marxist, communist and atheist is a bad joke.

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Old 16th September 2018, 12:51 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
This is so that Stalin was right —even against Marx— and pointed the Orthodox Church as a big obstacle for social justice. The problem with Stalin is that he confronted the problem with his characteristic brutality and lack of respect to justice. But the basic idea was right.

No, Stalin was wrong. (And he was wrong in approximately the same way as the CCP is wrong now.) What he didn't seem to understand is that the Church only is a problem as long as it has plenty of devoted followers. When no Christians are (= no belief is) left = no problem! Getting rid of the Church doesn't make religion go away. What does make religion go away is to get rid of the miserable conditions that make people religious. The preacher can't make anybody religious unless they want and need to believe! What makes him so convincing to believers really isn't his strong arguments or even the strength of his Church. The believers are what makes the Church strong. (And only believers find his arguments strong!)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 16th September 2018, 02:07 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, Stalin was wrong. (And he was wrong in approximately the same way as the CCP is wrong now.) What he didn't seem to understand is that the Church only is a problem as long as it has plenty of devoted followers. When no Christians are (= no belief is) left = no problem! Getting rid of the Church doesn't make religion go away. What does make religion go away is to get rid of the miserable conditions that make people religious. The preacher can't make anybody religious unless they want and need to believe! What makes him so convincing to believers really isn't his strong arguments or even the strength of his Church. The believers are what makes the Church strong. (And only believers find his arguments strong!)
Stalin was wrong in many things and some of the foremost. Not in the fact that churches are an obstacle to progress, justice, socialism or whatever you want call the liberation of the human genre . He was right in thinking that it was an obstacle, but not the only one. He was right in believing that workers real empowerment was the solution. He was wrong in practically all the rest. His dictatorship settled up the basis for a permanent misery —both material and intellectual— of the people that is one of main bases of the religion support. Orthodox Church’s force in present Russia is an heritage of his serious mistakes. The Big Dog should thank him for this.
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Old 16th September 2018, 03:31 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
... the fact that churches are an obstacle to progress, justice, socialism or whatever you want call the liberation of the human genre. He was right in thinking that it was an obstacle, but not the only one.

In Russia at the time of Stalin, yes, they probably were an obstacle to progress, but only because of the number of followers. In Spain nowadays, too, I suppose. But around here, the churches have stopped being an obstacle to anything: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church...ark#Gay_clergy

Quote:
He was right in believing that workers real empowerment was the solution.

Stalin did nothing to empower the workers. Much the same way that Trump does nothing to empower the U.S. proletariat. Paying lip service to the working class is very different from actually doing your best to empower the workers. (And that goes for China, too!)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th September 2018, 04:18 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
In Russia at the time of Stalin, yes, they probably were an obstacle to progress, but only because of the number of followers. In Spain nowadays, too, I suppose. But around here, the churches have stopped being an obstacle to anything: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church...ark#Gay_clergy
Stalin did nothing to empower the workers. Much the same way that Trump does nothing to empower the U.S. proletariat. Paying lip service to the working class is very different from actually doing your best to empower the workers. (And that goes for China, too!)
Churches’ power is not only due to the number of followers. There are other political and social reasons. For example: Church’s economical power or its links with political elites. Without neglect the ideological power that is more subtle but not insignificant (a big think tank), and it is not exactly the same that religious direct influence. I think that actual Churches’ influence is stronger than people think even in “civilised” countries.

I was not speaking of what Stalin did for the workers, but what he said. Theory. Of course, if he did something for workers it is not the empowerment of them, because the only power in the Soviet Union was the politburo and himself.
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Old 16th September 2018, 05:28 AM   #436
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The Church is primarily financed by the believers. That was always the case. And it usually sides with the people in power, but that isn't always the case: In Poland in the late 19802, the Catholic Church helped topple the leaders of state. Constantine converted to Christianity when it became too popular for him to resist. Until then it had been kind of 'anti-establishment.'
I'm not saying that there aren't any conflicts of interest between the Church and its followers. What I'm saying is that its power depends almost exclusively on its followers. Its bond with those in power doesn't last long if nobody listens to its sermons. In that's case it's useless to the powers that be.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th September 2018, 08:19 AM   #437
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It strikes me that these are Chinese Communist Party members working in their security services acting like Chinese Communist Part members who work in the security services. If the root cause of the attacks on churches were atheism, I should think there wouldn't be a church standing in Sweden.
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Old 16th September 2018, 08:34 AM   #438
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Seems to me that, as has been pointed out, this is a case of an authoritarian government attacking perceived enemies.

Authoritarian governments have been doing this for as long as there have been such governments.

Of course it's wrong and should be condemned.
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Old 16th September 2018, 08:37 AM   #439
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I admit to having skimmed this thread, so apologies if these points have been made before.
Firsltly, TBD, if you are stating that the human rights abuses being committed in China are the result of the government being Marxist atheist, how do you explain the freedom of religion enjoyed in Marxist atheist-ruled Vietnam? If atheism is the root and cause of this oppression, it would surely be occuring there as well. I lived in Vietnam for 18 months, and I can assure you that religious beliefs are thriving there.
Secondly, if having atheists in power results in oppression of religions, how do you explain the lack of religious persecution in Australia, New Zealand, Greece, Croatia, Belgium, the Czech Republic and France, all of which countries have had atheist heads of state in recent times?
You have dismissed the totalitarian nature of the Chinese government as a factor in the persecution of religions, and posited that atheism is the deciding factor. If this is true, then all of the countries I have cited should have had the same thing happen. Do please explain why this is not the case, as this situation would seem to fatally undermine your argument.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedo...ion_in_Vietnam

https://mic.com/articles/118192/7-wo...too#.5JuRPMm4B
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Old 16th September 2018, 09:32 AM   #440
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Cuba is an even better example. 60-65% Catholic - albeit syncretized with the African Yoruba religion into Santería, which is recognized by the Catholic Church as Catholicism, I think, but actually has very little to do with Christianity at all.
Some members of the the Cuban government are rumored to be Santeros ...
And there is no reason not to mention the religious persecution carried out by the Catholic Church (Wikipedia) against the natives in Cuba, is there? "With the Papal Bull of 1493, Pope Alexander VI commanded Spain to conquer, colonize and convert the pagans of the New World to Catholicism."

The story of chief Hatuay (Wikipedia) is particularly interesting in this context!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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