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Tags atheism , China incidents , China issues , christian persecution , gosateizm

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Old 16th November 2018, 08:40 AM   #2001
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
TBD asks: So now the question is: what are we to do about [human rights abuse in China]?

atheists answer: bitterly complain about TBD.

So it goes.
How very horrible for you.

Or as Dennis might say:

"Help! Help!

I am being repressed!"
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Old 16th November 2018, 08:42 AM   #2002
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I ever do love atheist conspiracy theories.

Yes atheist are trying to take over the world all... like 10 of us. We're going to overpower the 900 trillion Catholics in the American Bible Belt.
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Old 16th November 2018, 08:47 AM   #2003
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I ever do love atheist conspiracy theories.

Yes atheist are trying to take over the world all... like 10 of us. We're going to overpower the 900 trillion Catholics in the American Bible Belt.
fascinating post really, there is so much wrong jam packed into that post and those final two sentences in particular, it is really quite remarkable....

fascinating
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Old 16th November 2018, 08:50 AM   #2004
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
fascinating post really, there is so much wrong jam packed into that post and those final two sentences in particular, it is really quite remarkable....

fascinating
Your criticism is just... devastating. No really I'm shattered. This is my serious face. Just look at how serious it is.
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Old 16th November 2018, 08:53 AM   #2005
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Your criticism is just... devastating. No really I'm shattered. This is my serious face. Just look at how serious it is.
Well, where does one begin?

The fact that at least one million people are in camps is a "conspiracy theory"

That there are like "ten" atheists

that Catholics make up the Bible belt

It is like you just sprayed a handful of feces cliches against the wall hoping some would stick.

fascinating.
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Old 16th November 2018, 08:55 AM   #2006
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Well I'm sure I'll be the first one against the wall when your revolution comes.
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Old 16th November 2018, 09:01 AM   #2007
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well I'm sure I'll be the first one against the wall when your revolution comes.
Actually, as explained above, when the revolution actually came in countries run by Unyielding Marxist Atheists, usually it the religious clergy who were among the first ones against the wall. You might want to look it up before, you know, posting metaphorical claims that you are being persecuted because someone had the temerity to challenge one of your posts.
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Old 16th November 2018, 09:05 AM   #2008
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Actually, as explained above, when the revolution actually came in countries run by Unyielding Marxist Atheists, usually it the religious clergy who were among the first ones against the wall. You might want to look it up before, you know, posting metaphorical claims that you are being persecuted because someone had the temerity to challenge one of your posts.
I saw your link. It's devastating how badly Christians have abused human rights.

What can we do to stop them?
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Old 16th November 2018, 10:30 AM   #2009
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
TBD asks: So now the question is: what are we to do about [human rights abuse in China]?

atheists answer: bitterly complain about TBD.

So it goes.
That is a rather broad brush, those who choose to go down the rabbit hole with you do not represent atheists

There are many approaches taken by atheists who do not choose to chase you through the warren
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:24 PM   #2010
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What's the problem with Catholics being persecuted? The Catholic Crutch loves martyrs. You get a free lifetime -- sorry, deathtime -- pass to heaven if you're killed by a protestant or Jew or atheist or whatever. Sainthood comes later, in many cases, and that's flat out deification!

So jolly good, bang on, China.

Hope I'm being fascinating.
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Old 16th November 2018, 01:36 PM   #2011
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
What's the problem with Catholics being persecuted? The Catholic Crutch loves martyrs. You get a free lifetime -- sorry, deathtime -- pass to heaven if you're killed by a protestant or Jew or atheist or whatever. Sainthood comes later, in many cases, and that's flat out deification!

So jolly good, bang on, China.

Hope I'm being fascinating.
No.
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Old 16th November 2018, 05:49 PM   #2012
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Actually, as explained above, when the revolution actually came in countries run by Unyielding Marxist Atheists, usually it the religious clergy who were among the first ones against the wall.
The Big Dog, you seem to be the only unbiased person on this thread wanting to deal in facts!

I was thinking of Richard Dawkins saying in an interview that "telling children they belong to a religion is child abuse", and that Islam is "one of the great evils in the world." Both of those ideas would be at home in the 're-education' camps in China.

If a group of like-minded people attained political power, you'd expect them to want to eliminate child abuse and great evils, however they defined those things to be.

Fortunately the Western world has secular governments rather than officially atheist ones like in China and the old Soviet Union. Do you think that any officially atheist government inevitably leads to repression of religion and free thought (at least when it comes to religion)?

Last edited by GDon; 16th November 2018 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 16th November 2018, 09:34 PM   #2013
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
Fortunately the Western world has secular governments
Indeed. I am a firm proponent of secular government, myself.

Originally Posted by GDon View Post
rather than officially atheist ones like in China and the old Soviet Union. Do you think that any officially atheist government inevitably leads to repression of religion and free thought (at least when it comes to religion)?
A better question to ask first would be... what kinds of governments have an official religious stance in the first place and why? That can easily be asked alongside the question of whether governments with an official religious stance inevitably engage in the repression of religion (other religions and religious stances) and free thought?

The answers to those two questions combined will give a pretty clear picture, quite frankly. So, I'll reverse things a bit for you. Do you think that an officially Christian government inevitably leads to the repression of religion and free thought?
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Old 16th November 2018, 11:05 PM   #2014
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
So, I'll reverse things a bit for you. Do you think that an officially Christian government inevitably leads to the repression of religion and free thought?
No, the lessons from history suggest not. From the Wiki article on "Christian states":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_state
Today, several nations officially identify themselves as Christian states or have state churches, including Argentina,[8] Costa Rica,[9] Denmark,[10] England,[11] Faroe Islands,[12] Greece,[13] Greenland,[14] Iceland,[15] Liechtenstein,[16] Malta,[17] Monaco,[18] Norway,[19] Samoa,[20] Tonga,[21] Tuvalu,[22] Vatican City,[23] and Zambia.[24] A Christian state stands in contrast to a secular state,[25] an atheist state,[26] or another religious state, such as a Jewish state,[27] or an Islamic state.[28]
The article notes that many Christian states have turned secular. Since this has been done without revolution in many cases, it suggests that Christian states allowed themselves to change and adopt secular values for those states.

In the article under "State atheism":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
State atheism is the incorporation of positive atheism or non-theism into political regimes, particularly associated with Soviet systems...

The Soviet Union attempted to suppress public religious expression over wide areas of its influence, including places such as central Asia. Currently, only China, Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam are officially atheist.
Since the old Soviet Union moved from communism to the new Russian government, religious freedom has increased, suggesting that moving away from state atheism results in more religious freedom.

Last edited by GDon; 16th November 2018 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 17th November 2018, 12:13 AM   #2015
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
TBD asks: So now the question is: what are we to do about [human rights abuse in China]?.
The same as around the world: to fight for Human Rights, justice or whatever you call it.
But this has nothing to do with atheism. It is politics.
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Old 17th November 2018, 12:39 AM   #2016
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
The Big Dog, you seem to be the only unbiased person on this thread wanting to deal in facts!

I was thinking of Richard Dawkins saying in an interview that "telling children they belong to a religion is child abuse", and that Islam is "one of the great evils in the world." Both of those ideas would be at home in the 're-education' camps in China.

If a group of like-minded people attained political power, you'd expect them to want to eliminate child abuse and great evils, however they defined those things to be.
Nobody is denying here any fact. We are denying Big Dog's obtuse Christian propaganda and his unjustified attack against atheism as the main responsible of political repression in China. You are in the same line.

For example: your matching Dawkings and Chinese government is aberrant. This is because your theist propaganda roots in the unjustifiable assumption that any strong criticism against religion implies political repression. This is masked religious propaganda.

Democracy is the recognition that our enemies ideas have the same rights as ours. Chinese government's problem is not that they have ideas but that they are not democrats. And you? Is your strong criticism against Dawkings a menacing of a camp of internment for atheists if yours come to power?
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Old 17th November 2018, 01:09 AM   #2017
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
No, the lessons from history suggest not. From the Wiki article on "Christian states":
(...)

The article notes that many Christian states have turned secular. Since this has been done without revolution in many cases, it suggests that Christian states allowed themselves to change and adopt secular values for those states.

In the article under "State atheism":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
State atheism is the incorporation of positive atheism or non-theism into political regimes, particularly associated with Soviet systems...

The Soviet Union attempted to suppress public religious expression over wide areas of its influence, including places such as central Asia. Currently, only China, Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam are officially atheist.
Since the old Soviet Union moved from communism to the new Russian government, religious freedom has increased, suggesting that moving away from state atheism results in more religious freedom.
If you want to denounce the terrible situation of unofficial religions in China, nobody here is going to contradict you. In spite of what your "objective" friend repeats maniacally.

If you mean that this is due to atheism, as your "objective" friend, we will not agree. If you want to say the same you have to explain the links that according to your "objective" friend exist between atheism and repression. And don't say that Dawkings is very radical. Forgive me for saying this is nonsensical.

And I don't know what a non-communist atheistic government would do. I personally don't like the idea because it involves mixing atheism and politics. The only examples we have in that sense are those of communist countries, which have never been a model of many things. Not because they were atheists, but authoritarian.

I believe that the concept to be defended is that of a secular state.

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Old 17th November 2018, 01:18 AM   #2018
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
I was thinking of Richard Dawkins saying in an interview that "telling children they belong to a religion is child abuse", and that Islam is "one of the great evils in the world." Both of those ideas would be at home in the 're-education' camps in China.
I agree: put in the head of children absurd ideas and fears before they can think the things by themselves is an abuse. Imagine that I terrorize my child from an early age with the idea that if he touches his penis he will be a pervert all his life and his blood will rot. Isn't this an abuse?
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Old 17th November 2018, 01:49 AM   #2019
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
No, the lessons from history suggest not.
If this is true, then a country holding an official religious stance does not inevitably lead to repression of religion and free thought. The next question that would proceed from there, then, is why such actually happens.

With said, though, I think that you're jumping to unwarranted conclusions, if you're actually trying to use the ensuing arguments. I'll deal with them more directly, though.

Originally Posted by GDon View Post
From the Wiki article on "Christian states":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_state
Today, several nations officially identify themselves as Christian states or have state churches, including Argentina,[8] Costa Rica,[9] Denmark,[10] England,[11] Faroe Islands,[12] Greece,[13] Greenland,[14] Iceland,[15] Liechtenstein,[16] Malta,[17] Monaco,[18] Norway,[19] Samoa,[20] Tonga,[21] Tuvalu,[22] Vatican City,[23] and Zambia.[24] A Christian state stands in contrast to a secular state,[25] an atheist state,[26] or another religious state, such as a Jewish state,[27] or an Islamic state.[28]
The article notes that many Christian states have turned secular. Since this has been done without revolution in many cases, it suggests that Christian states allowed themselves to change and adopt secular values for those states.
There are a couple things that are worth touching on here. First, that article doesn't deal at all with the repression of religion or free thought in the first place, thus, it is of tangential value, at best, to what's in question there. The articles on, for example, religious persecution would likely be of more use. For example -
Quote:
The tendency of societies or groups within society to alienate or repress different subcultures is a recurrent theme in human history. Moreover, because a person's religion often determines to a significant extent his or her morality, worldview, self-image, attitudes towards others, and overall personal identity, religious differences can be significant cultural, personal, and social factors.

Religious persecution may be triggered by religious bigotry (i.e. members of a dominant group denigrating religions other than their own) or by the state when it views a particular religious group as a threat to its interests or security. At a societal level, this dehumanisation of a particular religious group may readily turn into violence or other forms of persecution. Indeed, in many countries, religious persecution has resulted in so much violence that it is considered a human rights problem.
With that said, at last check, religious tolerance and Christianity only really started becoming at all related after a number of outright wars between Protestants and Catholics. The 30 Years War, especially. Second, your reasoning here is very, very flimsy and dodges addressing the reasoning for why the states that changed to secular states did so in the first place. Third, this line of argument gives the impression that you want to quietly narrow what kinds of repression of religion and free thought that you're talking about to some of the more extreme forms and ignore the many rather common and less extreme ways that governments that have official religious views tend to support that view to the expense of other views. Fourth, it may be worth noting that atheist China actually did go out of their way to peacefully change their constitution to include provisions for religious freedom, which has helped the situation there, though more before the 6-10 Office and Xi. Thus, China would qualify as an example of an atheist state that did exactly what you're talking about, albeit under a notably more authoritarian government model than an actual democracy.


Originally Posted by GDon View Post
In the article under "State atheism":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
State atheism is the incorporation of positive atheism or non-theism into political regimes, particularly associated with Soviet systems...

The Soviet Union attempted to suppress public religious expression over wide areas of its influence, including places such as central Asia. Currently, only China, Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam are officially atheist.
Bolding mine, of course. That phrase, alone, should tip you off, very clearly, that they're not dealing with any possible officially atheist government here. They're dealing with governments that were rather repressive by design. That atheism was chosen as a state religion to be enforced was fairly certainly a political move to limit or eliminate the power that religious groups (among the rest of the ideologies being repressed) could bring to bear, rather than any real ideological consensus. If we deal with China, specifically, of course, there's a very, very long history there of the leadership repressing religion and free thought that is not in line with the leadership's desires.

Originally Posted by GDon View Post
Since the old Soviet Union moved from communism to the new Russian government, religious freedom has increased, suggesting that moving away from state atheism results in more religious freedom.
While true, this serves as an extremely limited data point, especially given the actual nature of the old Soviet Union's "commitment" to atheism. Reasonable analogies could easily be made to a number of countries that strongly endorsed a state religion and eventually moved away from them in light of the general population becoming unhappy at the religious persecution that they were seeing.
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Old 17th November 2018, 07:11 AM   #2020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDon View Post
Since the old Soviet Union moved from communism to the new Russian government, religious freedom has increased, suggesting that moving away from state atheism results in more religious freedom.
And that freedom only really exists for the Russian Orthodox Church as a function of nationalism and therefore state power under Vladimir Putin. The effect this has on groups in society likes Gays and Lesbians, Muslims and Jews etc. is not positive. Sometimes religious "toleration" only goes so far.
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Old 18th November 2018, 05:43 PM   #2021
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
query, we know that you said that my post was more appalling than, for example putting a million human beings in Chinese atheist reeducation camps, but I have been wondering if there is a scale for that?
I did not say that. You are lying again.
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Old 18th November 2018, 11:00 PM   #2022
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I did not say that. You are lying again.
It is his method to make impossible a rational debate. Since he has not many ideas he repeat them till exhaustion. Your exhaustion, of course. He is a broken record and never ceases to repeat the same notes.
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Old 18th November 2018, 11:49 PM   #2023
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yeah, it is. But the idea that you think that this is characteristic of atheism rather than an activity of the totalitarian government of China is even more appalling.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I did not say that. You are lying again.
Yeah, actually you did.

The fact that you might have not bothered to read the article linked in the OP is no excuse.

Hell, the title of the thread includes the phrases "destroy churches" and "attack the faithful" yet you posted that it was, what was it???

Ah yes "even more appalling"... "that you think that this is characteristic of atheism."

Much worse then than destroying churches, attacking faithful, putting at least a million people in atheist reeducation camps.

How many holocausts would you say that "thinking that this is characteristic of atheism" is?
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Old 19th November 2018, 01:53 AM   #2024
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post


Currently, only China, Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam are officially atheist.
Strange then, given the contention that atheist governments inevitably lead to oppression of religions, that both Cuba and Vietnam enjoy good levels of religious freedom, taking into consideration the totalitarian nature of their respective governments.
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Old 19th November 2018, 02:08 AM   #2025
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post

The Soviet Union attempted to suppress public religious expression over wide areas of its influence, including places such as central Asia. Currently, only China, Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam are officially atheist.
If atheism is the main cause of repression in China, one cannot understand that other officially atheist countries like Vietnam and Cuba -- which assume to be communist, like China -- barely have restrictions on the practice of religions.
You yourself cite the data that goes against your thesis.

ADDED: I have not seen the above comment by Cosmic Yak. Consequently I insist.

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Old 19th November 2018, 03:07 AM   #2026
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In Spain general Franco killed about twenty priests and imprisoned about two hundred. Was he an “Unyielding Communist Atheist”? See yourselves:





What do you think, GDon?
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Old 19th November 2018, 03:23 AM   #2027
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I agree: put in the head of children absurd ideas and fears before they can think the things by themselves is an abuse.
Exactly, and wouldn't you be against such abuse? Imagine a politically powerful group of like minded people -- wouldn't they try to do something to stop that abuse?

Now, atheism is not defined as "telling children they belong to a religion is child abuse", but it is easy to speculate that there is a line between those two ideas. We can look at history to imagine what might happen if a country declared itself to be an atheist state.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
If atheism is the main cause of repression in China, one cannot understand that other officially atheist countries like Vietnam and Cuba -- which assume to be communist, like China -- barely have restrictions on the practice of religions.
You yourself cite the data that goes against your thesis.
I have never said that atheism is the "main cause" of repression, simply that metaphysical implications within atheism leads to repression of religion and free-thought. History arguably supports that lesson.

Here is what the article says about Cuba:
Until 1992,[84] Cuba was officially an atheist state...[8][85]

Originally more tolerant of religion, the Cuban government began arresting many believers and shutting down religious schools after the Bay of Pigs invasion. Its prisons were being filled with clergy since the 1960s.[87] In 1961 The Cuban government confiscated Catholic schools, including the Jesuit school that Fidel Castro had attended. In 1965 it exiled two hundred priests.[88]

In 1976 the Constitution of Cuba added a clause stating that the "socialist state...bases its activity on, and educates the people in, the scientific materialist concept of the universe". In 1992, the Dissolution of the Soviet Union led the country to declare itself a secular state...
So, originally more tolerant of religion, Cuba began to crack down [might one add 'almost inevitably'?] on religions, until it declared itself a secular state. Similar to what happened in the Soviet Union. How is that against my hypothesis?

As for Vietnam: where did you get your information from? Here is the Human Rights Watch non-profit group: Vietnam: Sharp Backsliding on Religious Freedom

There are lots of articles of Vietnam cracking down on religious groups, especially Buddhists and Catholics.

While of course there are political aspects to this, I suggest that it may well be inevitable for an atheist state to take on the idea that religions should be restricted and eventually eliminated, much like some atheists like yourself and Dr Dawkins believe that telling children they belong to a religion is child abuse, and then acting on that idea when given sufficient political power.
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Old 19th November 2018, 03:32 AM   #2028
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
In Spain general Franco killed about twenty priests and imprisoned about two hundred. Was he an “Unyielding Communist Atheist”? See yourselves:

What do you think, GDon?
I'm thinking 'how is this relevant?'

Do you think my argument is that only atheist states kill priests and crack down on religions? Quote me please, if you do.

Religious states would tend to want to crack-down on religions for the same reasons I am proposing for atheist states: metaphysical ideals driving political actions. It's not that atheist states are different, it is that they are no better.

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Old 19th November 2018, 03:36 AM   #2029
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
...

I have never said that atheism is the "main cause" of repression, simply that metaphysical implications within atheism leads to repression of religion and free-thought. History arguably supports that lesson.

....
There are no universal implications within atheism, because atheism is not as such a single metaphysical standpoint.
So here: simply that metaphysical implications within religion leads to killing of humans. History arguably supports that lesson.

Neither is true in the strong sense. So stop claiming that.
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Old 19th November 2018, 05:16 AM   #2030
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
There are no universal implications within atheism, because atheism is not as such a single metaphysical standpoint.
I'm not saying there are universal implications within atheism, nor claiming that atheism is a single metaphysical standpoint.

One could claim that their atheism just refers to a lack of belief in gods or God, and there are no metaphysical/philosophical implications. That is fine. But equally one can be an atheist based on metaphysical naturalism, and so draw implications from that. When a government declares itself an atheist state, then one wonders how much that plays into their attack on religions, especially when the atheist state declares that it is in a struggle between atheism and theism.

Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Neither is true in the strong sense. So stop claiming that.
I don't know why you are putting qualifiers on my views: 'strong', 'universal', 'single'. It is a bad habit to get into, since it leads to strawmanning and talking past each other.
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Old 19th November 2018, 05:19 AM   #2031
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
I have never said that atheism is the "main cause" of repression, simply that metaphysical implications within atheism leads to repression of religion and free-thought. History arguably supports that lesson.
Again, you seem to be trying to ignore the simple fact that atheism isn't even remotely a metaphysical framework and is fundamentally incapable of producing the implications that you're trying to attribute to it. In contrast, there's far, far more information of use related to the repression of alternative beliefs to be found when it comes to looking at what kinds of governments would choose to pointedly declare themselves atheist states in the still quite religious world of today and why.

Of course, if your heart's set on wasting time trying to make and support anti-atheism propaganda by making up some absurdly circumstantial and half-assed case that depends on invoking anti-atheist biases and ignorance to cover up how bad its flaws are, it's unlikely that we can stop you. We're under no compulsion to be supportive of such crappy logic, though.
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Old 19th November 2018, 05:34 AM   #2032
Tommy Jeppesen
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
...
One could claim that their atheism just refers to a lack of belief in gods or God, and there are no metaphysical/philosophical implications. That is fine. But equally one can be an atheist based on metaphysical naturalism, and so draw implications from that. ...
No, let me show you.
A is B, therefore ...
Atheism is methodological naturalism, therefore ...

Nothing follows from atheism as such and atheism is not just metaphysical naturalism. You don't have to use metaphysical naturalism, you can do it without metaphysics.
So you are again front-loading what atheism is.
Some people use religion as a reason to oppress other humans, therefore religion is EVIL!
Some people use atheism as a reason to oppress other humans, therefore religion is EVIL!
I reject both.
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Old 19th November 2018, 05:41 AM   #2033
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
But equally one can be an atheist based on metaphysical naturalism, and so draw implications from that.
In which case, it would be improper to call what you're talking about "atheism." Much like it's improper to try to talk about special traits of Sikhism as if they applied to all of theism. With that said, I'll repeat yet again, metaphysical naturalism is far more comprehensive than atheism when it comes to making a world view, but there's still the is-ought problem in play there. Metaphysical naturalism deals with how things are, not how we should act and what we should value. Thus, there are no implications that can validly be derived from it that would support pretty much any behavior. At least in that case, though, there's more "meat" to grab onto when it comes to forming beliefs about what's likely to be true, though, which could be more realistically part of clashing beliefs.

Originally Posted by GDon View Post
When a government declares itself an atheist state, then one wonders how much that plays into their attack on religions, especially when the atheist state declares that it is in a struggle between atheism and theism.
When a person keeps trying to turn the focus away from the quite clear big picture to a little spot near a corner in that big picture and tries to assign a very special and unevidenced significance to it that would make it the focus of the picture, one might wonder what their real goal is, since it's quite clearly not to understand the big picture and the place that the little spot has in that picture.
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Old 19th November 2018, 07:13 AM   #2034
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Nothing follows from atheism as such and atheism is not just metaphysical naturalism. You don't have to use metaphysical naturalism, you can do it without metaphysics.
Yes you can. Not my point.

Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
So you are again front-loading what atheism is.
Some people use religion as a reason to oppress other humans, therefore religion is EVIL!
Some people use atheism as a reason to oppress other humans, therefore religion is EVIL!
I reject both.
Okay. Me too.

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Old 19th November 2018, 07:22 AM   #2035
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Metaphysical naturalism deals with how things are, not how we should act and what we should value. Thus, there are no implications that can validly be derived from it that would support pretty much any behavior.
There are whole books written about what metaphysical naturalists should do. See moral naturalism for example.

Looks like people are talking past my point. I'll make this my last post on this thread. Thanks everyone for your time!
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Old 19th November 2018, 08:33 AM   #2036
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
Exactly, and wouldn't you be against such abuse? Imagine a politically powerful group of like minded people -- wouldn't they try to do something to stop that abuse?

Now, atheism is not defined as "telling children they belong to a religion is child abuse", but it is easy to speculate that there is a line between those two ideas. We can look at history to imagine what might happen if a country declared itself to be an atheist state.
You can speculate all you want. My solution is a public and secular school. I don’t think you will say that it is aggressive.

Originally Posted by GDon View Post
I have never said that atheism is the "main cause" of repression, simply that metaphysical implications within atheism leads to repression of religion and free-thought. History arguably supports that lesson.
This is your personal speculation.

Originally Posted by GDon View Post
Here is what the article says about Cuba:
Until 1992,[84] Cuba was officially an atheist state...[8][85]

Originally more tolerant of religion, the Cuban government began arresting many believers and shutting down religious schools after the Bay of Pigs invasion. Its prisons were being filled with clergy since the 1960s.[87] In 1961 The Cuban government confiscated Catholic schools, including the Jesuit school that Fidel Castro had attended. In 1965 it exiled two hundred priests.[88]

In 1976 the Constitution of Cuba added a clause stating that the "socialist state...bases its activity on, and educates the people in, the scientific materialist concept of the universe". In 1992, the Dissolution of the Soviet Union led the country to declare itself a secular state...
So, originally more tolerant of religion, Cuba began to crack down [might one add 'almost inevitably'?] on religions, until it declared itself a secular state. Similar to what happened in the Soviet Union. How is that against my hypothesis?

As for Vietnam: where did you get your information from? Here is the Human Rights Watch non-profit group: Vietnam: Sharp Backsliding on Religious Freedom

There are lots of articles of Vietnam cracking down on religious groups, especially Buddhists and Catholics.

While of course there are political aspects to this, I suggest that it may well be inevitable for an atheist state to take on the idea that religions should be restricted and eventually eliminated, much like some atheists like yourself and Dr Dawkins believe that telling children they belong to a religion is child abuse, and then acting on that idea when given sufficient political power.
You continue sticked to Wikipedia. You can see its inconsistence here. It is claimed that the state begins to be tolerant with secularization. But at the same time it is stated that the same atheist state was more or less tolerant. Why? The Wikipedia article says nothing. It is obvious that the mention to Bahía Cochinos implies that these oscillations were due to political causes and not to Fidel Castro and other leaders' atheism that was ever the same.

You speculate that persecution of a religious group necessarily implies atheism. Franco's case shows you how an ultra-Catholic regime can shoot Catholic priests because they defended political ideas different from the dictator. And with the help of the Catholic Church for more incoherence!

Be that as it may, you cannot deny that atheist states like Vietnam or Cuba do not behave in the same way as China or Stalin with religions. Therefore, you cannot deduce the attacks against China's clandestine churches from atheism. It lacks the main element.

That's what history teaches when you're well-informed and don't stick to your particular speculations and Wikipedia.

What about religious ideologies and churches? Are they totalitarian in themselves?

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Old 19th November 2018, 08:46 AM   #2037
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yeah, actually you did.

The fact that you might have not bothered to read the article linked in the OP is no excuse.

Hell, the title of the thread includes the phrases "destroy churches" and "attack the faithful" yet you posted that it was, what was it???

Ah yes "even more appalling"... "that you think that this is characteristic of atheism."

Much worse then than destroying churches, attacking faithful, putting at least a million people in atheist reeducation camps.

How many holocausts would you say that "thinking that this is characteristic of atheism" is?
TBD, your claim about atheism is just a very little turd on top of the dung heap of atrocities. But it still smells that you want to use these events to further your personal agenda.

To allege that it means the remark is actually worse than the atrocity can only come from a megalomaniac. Or a liar.

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Old 19th November 2018, 08:53 AM   #2038
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What about religious ideologies and churches? Are they totalitarian in themselves?

Atheism lacks an element of intolerance that religions have in abundance: the divine mandate. Any Catholic who wants to oppose a Catholic dictatorship, such as General Franco's, must turn to the sources of his belief, the Bible. Then he will have a hard time, because the Bible itself is a source of intolerance. To emancipate himself from this annoying condition, he will have to make a thousand illogical contortions and finally resort to his own common sense, if he has one.

The atheist does not have this hindrance. If he resorts to a higher authority, it must be Reason, but, in principle, Reason is a common good for all humanity. Authoritarianism can happen, but it is a contradiction in itself and must make infinite logical contortions in order to justify itself.

I do not doubt that there can be a dogmatic atheism. But against its own principles. This is not the case with religions.

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Old 19th November 2018, 10:12 AM   #2039
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
TBD, your claim about atheism is just a very little turd on top of the dung heap of atrocities. But it still smells that you want to use these events to further your personal agenda.

To allege that it means the remark is actually worse than the atrocity can only come from a megalomaniac. Or a liar.

Hans
Yet those are the words that were written, as I have already shown.

And it is proven that Unyielding Marxist Atheists are leading these atrocities to promulgate their dung heap of atrocities.
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Old 19th November 2018, 11:12 AM   #2040
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Yes, we must that people quite literally, of course. So watch what you write.

No, nothing is proven about their belief system. Only about their rhetoric.

But worry not. We can live with small turds.

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