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Tags Boston incidents , Kyle Chapman , Mark Sahady , white nationalists

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Old 5th September 2019, 06:11 AM   #401
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You do realise the whole point of a parade is the number of people doing it and not the people who organised it via the internet.

I mean otherwise it would be called a "three or four people walking down the road"
Do you really not understand that politically motivated parades exist so like-minded people can get together and publicly demonstrate their shared ideologies?

Your defense of the Fragile Masculinity Parade marchers seems to be that they shouldn't be called racist because they might really just be too stupid and clueless to realize what they were marching in. As I pointed out in an earlier post, that's not a defense because it just makes them useful idiots for the racists.

You're reminding me of this incident:
Rush Limbaugh says Obama is targeting Christians by fighting Lord's Resistance Army

The best defense for Limbaugh was that he was just lazy in his fact-checking and didn't go beyond the name of the group being targeted. Similarly, the best defense for the Fragile Masculinity Parade participants was that they were just blithering idiots. It's like attending Dragon Con and being surprised that you're suddenly being associated sci-fi fans.
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:15 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's also an excuse to get idiots and nazi-adjacent people to start asking "what's wrong with straight pride?" and "How can you say all the people in the march are Nazis?" on public forums, thus perpetuating the discussion and make their hate more opaque in the eyes of "enlightened centrists".
I would hope the fence sitters (if there are any left) would not be fooled by such a transparent pretense. Trump 2020 signs were everywhere, by all appearances outnumbering 'I **** women' signs. For god's sake, Milo was there in MAGAwear. Really, really hoping no one was fooled by Unite the Right 3.
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:18 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The Police should protect the anti-fascists and if they need to rough up anyone, let them rough up the Nazis.
Sure, the BPD should not have a culture of thuggery. Like many police departments, they are largely unaccountable in their wanton overuse of force.

So besides wishing that the cops weren't such oppressive thugs, what should the city of Boston done? These vile people have a right to assemble and march.
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:18 AM   #404
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You seem to have missed my question

Let me give your theory a go.

Let us say every person on a straight gender pride parade is

Giant leap

Also racist? (doubtful, but for your benefit, let us say yes)
And clearly lots of people just wanted to unite the right and had nothing to do with the white supremacists organizers, so says you and Trump.
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:21 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure, the BPD should not have a culture of thuggery. Like many police departments, they are largely unaccountable in their wanton overuse of force.

So besides wishing that the cops weren't such oppressive thugs, what should the city of Boston done? These vile people have a right to assemble and march.
Besides the cops attacking the counter-protesters, I'd say the whole affair was a huge win for Antifa, so I have no other issue.

Let the Nazis march - as long as they aren't allowed to march past places like synagogues, mosques or near any schools. Allow the crowd to intimidate the **** out of the Nazis. Let the milkshakes fly. In the mean time, Antifa are identifying the participants for later doxing and shaming.
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:49 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That's a bit uncharitable. There are still remnants of an older form of liberalism in this country in the mold of the Skokie era ACLU. The ACLU protected the 1A rights of literal Nazis marching through a town with many Holocaust survivors. It was a controversial decision and was a defining moment for the organization and how many viewed 1A rights.



Besides reining in the police who are too quick to crack heads, which is a broader police problem not exclusive to this protest, what should Boston have done differently that is consistent with protecting the first amendment? These turds have a right to have their little nazi love-in in the streets of Boston, the same as anyone else.
Strongly disagree. Anyone identifying as a Nazi is saying they want to kill millions of their fellow citizens, they wouldn't be identifying as a Nazi if they didn't. I can't see any sensible argument that a society needs to allow such speech.
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:51 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think there is a good point to be made for deplatforming these goons, but applying for a city permit to march is very different than doing the college circuit. There is a significant distinction.



What should these cities do when some neo-Nazi organization applies for a permit? What should Boston have done differently here once they received a properly completed application to march? Please be specific.
The nazis - arrested them and attempt to deradicalise them and if you can't, keep them away from the general public.
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:52 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The nazis - arrested them and attempt to deradicalise them and if you can't, keep them away from the general public.
Best solution.
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:52 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Strongly disagree. Anyone identifying as a Nazi is saying they want to kill millions of their fellow citizens, they wouldn't be identifying as a Nazi if they didn't. I can't see any sensible argument that a society needs to allow such speech.
But those are basic political positions, mere genocide or exterminating the LGBT community is protected speech in the US. Right up until people do it then before it happened it magically morphs into incitement. See there is no way to know if speech is incitement before actions are taken, as the actions make the speech that caused them illegal.

So your death to all Jews march is legal, but if some of those involved get a bit carried away and start burning down synagogues then it was criminal all along.
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:53 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Strongly disagree. Anyone identifying as a Nazi is saying they want to kill millions of their fellow citizens, they wouldn't be identifying as a Nazi if they didn't. I can't see any sensible argument that a society needs to allow such speech.
Impossible, in your view then, to be a pro-life Democrat?
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:55 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
When the march is organized by neo Nazi, then it's a moot point.
Just using your post as a sounding post. Do we really need the "neo" prefix these days? Pretty much all the original Nazis are dead so there is no need to split Nazis into different groups these days, we aren't going to confuse a ninety year old in an old folks home for a 21 year old on a march. Adding neo in front of Nazi doesn't alter the ideology.
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:55 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The nazis - arrested them and attempt to deradicalise them and if you can't, keep them away from the general public.
Your solution is concentration camps?
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Old 5th September 2019, 06:59 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Your solution is concentration camps?
Guantanamo Bay?

Or just prison.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:03 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Impossible, in your view then, to be a pro-life Democrat?
What on earth has that got to do with Nazism?
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:06 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Your solution is concentration camps?
In the UK we tend to use the term prisons for where we hold criminals. But if you want to call them concentration camps that's up to you. Albeit seems a tad strange to start using a new word for prisons when we have the word prisons.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:11 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What on earth has that got to do with Nazism?
You claim that identifying with naziism means you must endorse genocide. I think, as many do, that the majority of these neo-nazi losers stop short of that sociopathic goal. Much like an American Democrat might not endorse every part of her party's platform, even a fundamental one.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:12 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You claim that identifying with naziism means you must endorse genocide. I think, as many do, that the majority of these neo-nazi losers stop short of that sociopathic goal. Much like an American Democrat might not endorse every part of her party's platform, even a fundamental one.
You don't think a majority of neo-Nazis want genocide?

How do you think they aim to achieve a ethnic white state?
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:12 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
In the UK we tend to use the term prisons for where we hold criminals. But if you want to call them concentration camps that's up to you. Albeit seems a tad strange to start using a new word for prisons when we have the word prisons.
Did the irony of your declaring that your political enemies be rounded up and put in camps slip by you?
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:13 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You claim that identifying with naziism means you must endorse genocide. I think, as many do, that the majority of these neo-nazi losers stop short of that sociopathic goal. Much like an American Democrat might not endorse every part of her party's platform, even a fundamental one.
Like how few members of the national socialist workers party were actual nazis anyway. Many were fine people who supported the nazi party for perfectly fine reasons.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:24 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Did the irony of your declaring that your political enemies be rounded up and put in camps slip by you?
Don't worry, it could never backfire. We'll put someone trustworthy in charge of making that decision. Maybe AG Barr could decide who's committing political crimes.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:25 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You claim that identifying with naziism means you must endorse genocide. I think, as many do, that the majority of these neo-nazi losers stop short of that sociopathic goal. Much like an American Democrat might not endorse every part of her party's platform, even a fundamental one.
What other beliefs, outside of whitening the world, do you think they hold that are in common with Nazi's, that would draw them to that particular party? Their nationalization of industry? I mean, come on. People can be liberal for a thousand reasons, unless you can provide some prime examples of why people become Nazi's, that don't involve "cleansing", this falls flat on its face.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:26 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
You don't think a majority of neo-Nazis want genocide?

How do you think they aim to achieve a ethnic white state?
Please hear me out. Don't just scan the post looking for something to attack.

Actual Nazis were a political force, seeking a fascist state based on 'Aryan' supremacy and seeking world domination. These neo types are a social movement based on hating other groups with no significant other objectives. Yes, they coattail on Trump, and use him as a more socially acceptable rallying point. But they are just a bunch of sniveling bigots. They are not the Reich. They never will be. They are a social movement to be met at street level, not dignified as a legitimate political power. Yes, there are exceptions here and there. But the overwhelming majority are the Richard Spencers, Identity Evropas, and Proud Boys: a bunch of flaccid punks who need their asses kicked.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:27 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Don't worry, it could never backfire. We'll put someone trustworthy in charge of making that decision. Maybe AG Barr could decide who's committing political crimes.
For like the 5,000th time. We've already had a team of people in charge of making the decisions with regards to what speech is protected, and what isn't. This isn't some ****** up, new, liberal idea that's never been thought of before. Literally every. *******. developed. country. in. the. world. has. one.

Make No Law: The First Amendment podcast. Give it a listen, you might learn some cool things about how our country has gotten this far by having a team of people making those decisions.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:28 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Please hear me out. Don't just scan the post looking for something to attack.

Actual Nazis were a political force, seeking a fascist state based on 'Aryan' supremacy and seeking world domination. These neo types are a social movement based on hating other groups with no significant other objectives. Yes, they coattail on Trump, and use him as a more socially acceptable rallying point. But they are just a bunch of sniveling bigots. They are not the Reich. They never will be. They are a social movement to be met at street level, not dignified as a legitimate political power. Yes, there are exceptions here and there. But the overwhelming majority are the Richard Spencers, Identity Evropas, and Proud Boys: a bunch of flaccid punks who need their asses kicked.
You're making the argument of "they won't be able to commit genocide", not that "they don't want genocide".
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:35 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
You're making the argument of "they won't be able to commit genocide", not that "they don't want genocide".
I think both. And I think a lot of people here are attributing tremendous power and malice to them, where there is far less in evidence.

They're powerless little losers, trolling everyone with their white power tripe. Why must everyone make them freaking Thanos?
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:40 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
For like the 5,000th time. We've already had a team of people in charge of making the decisions with regards to what speech is protected, and what isn't. This isn't some ****** up, new, liberal idea that's never been thought of before. Literally every. *******. developed. country. in. the. world. has. one.

Make No Law: The First Amendment podcast. Give it a listen, you might learn some cool things about how our country has gotten this far by having a team of people making those decisions.
I'm aware of that podcast. It's the one where Ken White regularly documents how the government repeatedly overreached well-intentioned law to prosecute people for engaging in unpopular speech. What am I missing?

The team of people you cite regularly reaffirm the right to be a Nazi and promote Nazi politics. They can be open about it, they can march for it, they can vote for it, and demanding that the police stop them is unconstitutional.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:40 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think both. And I think a lot of people here are attributing tremendous power and malice to them, where there is far less in evidence.

They're powerless little losers, trolling everyone with their white power tripe. Why must everyone make them freaking Thanos?
I guess I haven't seen anyone doing that in this particular thread. In fact, I've seen nothing but mockery and insult for the "parade". Look at halleyscomet correctly referring to the "parade" as the Fragile Masculinity Parade.

The views of these idiots are dangerous. We know that because a large portion of mass shooters hold these anti-immigrant, white supremacist views. They are actually doing damage, and taking life currently. This isn't some far off, unheard of idea. We just saw it happen in El Paso less than a month ago.

They don't need to be Thanos to cause pain.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:44 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm aware of that podcast. It's the one where Ken White regularly documents how the government repeatedly overreached well-intentioned law to prosecute people for engaging in unpopular speech. What am I missing?
Funny how you don't mention that it's that same government that either reversed those overreaches or affirmed the free speech rights of those cases. Misrepresentation in a vain attempt to make a point doesn't really help your case.

It's a podcast about how certain events have shaped our free speech through SCOTUS decisions and people fighting for their rights. That government overreach wouldn't have been changed without other parts of government.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The team of people you cite regularly reaffirm the right to be a Nazi and promote Nazi politics. They can be open about it, they can march for it, they can vote for it, and demanding that the police stop them is unconstitutional.
Nazi propaganda should be shunned and shut down because it has no place in current America. Just because you don't agree with that statement doesn't make it overreach. Plenty of countries have mass amounts of freedom and still don't allow Nazi propaganda or even display of Nazi paraphernalia. They seem to do ok, not everything is a slippery slope.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:46 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I guess I haven't seen anyone doing that in this particular thread. In fact, I've seen nothing but mockery and insult for the "parade". Look at halleyscomet correctly referring to the "parade" as the Fragile Masculinity Parade.
Guess you missed Darat and uke2se's, posts then. This page, even.

Quote:
The views of these idiots are dangerous. We know that because a large portion of mass shooters hold these anti-immigrant, white supremacist views. They are actually doing damage, and taking life currently. This isn't some far off, unheard of idea. We just saw it happen in El Paso less than a month ago.

They don't need to be Thanos to cause pain.
Agreed, they can be hella deadly. But are you assuming that this neo tripe caused them to become murderers? And are you suggesting that bashing nazis will, what? Fix them?
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:51 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Funny how you don't mention that it's that same government that either reversed those overreaches or affirmed the free speech rights of those cases. Misrepresentation in a vain attempt to make a point doesn't really help your case.

It's a podcast about how certain events have shaped our free speech through SCOTUS decisions and people fighting for their rights. That government overreach wouldn't have been changed without other parts of government.
I guess all those people who suffered until the law was corrected were just grist for the mill.

There is a general trend on that program of showing laws meant to give government power to quell unpopular speech are often used to commit injustice. The correction to most of these injustices is usually in the form of SCOTUS reaffirming the rights of citizens broad freedom of expression and limiting the power of the state. Not sure how you come to the conclusion that the arc of 1A law is bending towards criminalizing Nazism.



Quote:
Nazi propaganda should be shunned and shut down because it has no place in current America. Just because you don't agree with that statement doesn't make it overreach. Plenty of countries have mass amounts of freedom and still don't allow Nazi propaganda or even display of Nazi paraphernalia. They seem to do ok, not everything is a slippery slope.
Nazis should be shunned by every moral individual in the world. That doesn't mean I will support giving the government sweeping power to police political expression. McCarthyism needs to stay a relic of the past.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:52 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Guess you missed Darat and uke2se's, posts then. This page, even.
Apparently so. Can you please point to the posts where they "are attributing tremendous power and malice to them"? I'm very patient.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Agreed, they can be hella deadly. But are you assuming that this neo tripe caused them to become murderers?
Yeah, I do. I think that because they specifically cite and repeat the white supremacist propaganda in their statements and their manifesto's. The hell else would it be? Or are we doing the "mental health" or "misunderstood" or "lone wolf" thing again?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And are you suggesting that bashing nazis will, what? Fix them?
I didn't know I suggested "bashing" anyone, but it all depends on what you mean by that. If by "bashing" you mean physical violence, then no. I don't condone physical violence frequently. There are times when it has its purpose, but not now. If you mean "bashing" as in belittling them ad nauseum and laugh at them, then sure.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:52 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You claim that identifying with naziism means you must endorse genocide. I think, as many do, that the majority of these neo-nazi losers stop short of that sociopathic goal. Much like an American Democrat might not endorse every part of her party's platform, even a fundamental one.
Are you truthfully ignorant of what Nazism is?
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:56 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Are you truthfully ignorant of what Nazism is?
No. Thanks for asking.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:57 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Did the irony of your declaring that your political enemies be rounded up and put in camps slip by you?
Nazis aren't my political enemies they are people who want to kill me. I have no idea why you think I should be fine and dandy leaving extremists who want to kill me and millions of my fellow citizens to roam free.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:57 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I guess all those people who suffered until the law was corrected were just grist for the mill.
Yeah, kind of like the dead bodies of the last multiple white supremacists seem to be perfectly fine, in your opinion, because...McCarthyism?

People are suffering now because of that speech, and because we have a president that repeats it. Appeal to emotion noted.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There is a general trend on that program of showing laws meant to give government power to quell unpopular speech are often used to commit injustice. The correction to most of these injustices is usually in the form of SCOTUS reaffirming the rights of citizens broad freedom of expression and limiting the power of the state.
Right, that doesn't change my initial point at all that we have a body in the government that dictates free speech. Something you implied would be super dangerous. Thank you for finally agreeing with me.

If the SCOTUS rules that Nazi hate speech and propaganda is illegal, what would you do?

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Nazis should be shunned by every moral individual in the world. That doesn't mean I will support giving the government sweeping power to police political expression. McCarthyism needs to stay a relic of the past.
LoL the McCarthyism boogeyman. I love it.

Preaching for the genocide of multiple races isn't political expression, it's hate speech.
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Old 5th September 2019, 07:59 AM   #436
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Don't worry, it could never backfire. We'll put someone trustworthy in charge of making that decision. Maybe AG Barr could decide who's committing political crimes.
Ah the infamous slippery slope.

"Just you wait until you want to promote the killing of millions of your fellow citizens and find yourself being locked up"

I'll take the risk.
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Old 5th September 2019, 08:02 AM   #437
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think both. And I think a lot of people here are attributing tremendous power and malice to them, where there is far less in evidence.



They're powerless little losers, trolling everyone with their white power tripe. Why must everyone make them freaking Thanos?
Are you unaware of how Nazism gained power the last time?
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Old 5th September 2019, 08:03 AM   #438
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nazis aren't my political enemies they are people who want to kill me. I have no idea why you think I should be fine and dandy leaving extremists who want to kill me and millions of my fellow citizens to roam free.
Pretty sure about that, are you? Or are you assuming that from history books? That dealt with other people in another century? Has Dickless Spencer made attempts on your life?
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Old 5th September 2019, 08:04 AM   #439
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Are you unaware of how Nazism gained power the last time?
It's not the last time. Therein lies the problem.

We learn from past history. We don't live in it now.
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Old 5th September 2019, 08:07 AM   #440
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Pretty sure about that, are you? Or are you assuming that from history books? That dealt with other people in another century? Has Dickless Spencer made attempts on your life?
Nazism was and is quite clear about what it is. I have no issue at all with making a claim that Nazis want to kill me, if they didn't they wouldn't be Nazis.
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