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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 23rd November 2021, 09:15 PM   #2641
stanfr
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
Intersex people are not other sexes.
My point was, that even though that is the simplistic answer, life/nature aint that simple--see:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...y-simplistic1/

You are free to disagree with this, but it is not a unique position.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 10:45 PM   #2642
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Did you happen to notice the stabby trans woman in book two? Feels like...trolling.
No I’m not trolling. I stated a fact that I intentionally enriched the author because of shrill trans activists.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 11:15 PM   #2643
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Old 24th November 2021, 05:18 AM   #2644
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Eh, it will be fine. Logically and scientifically consistent views eventually end up on the right side of history.
She'll be fine regardless. She's independently wealthy and her heirs will be set for life for multiple generations. I suppose her reputation can always get worse and she might suffer some minor social consequences, but this anti-trans stance is really little more than a hobby for someone who is essentially retired.
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Old 24th November 2021, 05:19 AM   #2645
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Beautiful.

Handwave away rape and death threats and go back to "TERFs are more evil".

You have become a parody of yourself.
Some trans people are not very nice, some even engage in criminal action like death/rape threats. This is true of all people.

Since when do we decide who gets civil rights based on the actions of a lunatic fringe? Somewhere out there some gay person sent a death threat, some black person sent a rape threat, some woman mailed a pipe bomb. How is this relevant to whether or not entire classes of people deserve civil rights?
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Old 24th November 2021, 05:21 AM   #2646
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
What was the reason for standing outside her house doing whatever it was that they did? (I'm afraid I don't know what they posted because all three of their Twitter accounts have vanished for some reason.)
Rowling has used her fame to platform her anti-trans views, and some critics see an opportunity to protest her as a way to use that same fame to advocate pro-trans views.

Don't be willfully obtuse. It would probably be better if society generally didn't care about the social takes of celebrities, but that's not the world we live in.

If Rowling wants to use her outsized influence to advocate a certain policy position, we should not be surprised if her detractors criticize her personally in an attempt to likewise use that fame in the public discourse. Standing outside her mansion is not a threat or doxxing, it's run-of-the-mill criticism. The TERFs have paper thin skin, but trying to conflate holding a protest sign with an implied threat of violence is especially pathetic.
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Old 24th November 2021, 05:30 AM   #2647
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
No I’m not trolling.
Not you, her.
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Old 24th November 2021, 06:18 AM   #2648
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Some trans people are not very nice, some even engage in criminal action like death/rape threats. This is true of all people.

Since when do we decide who gets civil rights based on the actions of a lunatic fringe? Somewhere out there some gay person sent a death threat, some black person sent a rape threat, some woman mailed a pipe bomb. How is this relevant to whether or not entire classes of people deserve civil rights?

Indeed.

And there were of course plenty of well-documented terrorist-style incidents carried out by black civil rights activists, and female suffragettes, and other unfairly-oppressed groups. So, go figure......

FWIW, I think it was highly irresponsible and provocative (at a minimum) for those trans-activists to have published photographs of them standing outside Rowling's private residence. I was interested though in Rowling's response - a defiant exhortation that it wasn't going to shut her up, and that nobody should be "telling women" what to do/think/etc.

And that got me to thinking: Rowling obviously believes that transwomen aren't women. But she must also therefore think that transmen are not men. In other words, she believes that transmen are women. So I wonder how she feels about a transman (ie a woman, in her eyes) "telling women" about the validity of transgender identity and the need for transgender rights?
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Old 24th November 2021, 06:28 AM   #2649
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
How is this relevant to whether or not entire classes of people deserve civil rights?
Which specific civil rights is JKR hoping to deny an entire class of people?
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Old 24th November 2021, 06:30 AM   #2650
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And that got me to thinking: Rowling obviously believes that transwomen aren't women. But she must also therefore think that transmen are not men. In other words, she believes that transmen are women. So I wonder how she feels about a transman (ie a woman, in her eyes) "telling women" about the validity of transgender identity and the need for transgender rights?
TERF's generally believe transmen are deluded women who have internalized misogyny to the extent that they willingly mutilate themselves. They are sympathetic to them as fellow women, but discredit their experiences as delusional self-harm.
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Old 24th November 2021, 06:31 AM   #2651
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Not you, her.
Considering all her concern trolling about keeping "women's" spaces trans-exclusive, it's safe to assume she opposes any form of policy that grants trans people official gender recognition, with all the rights that entails.
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Old 24th November 2021, 06:45 AM   #2652
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Considering all her concern trolling about keeping "women's" spaces trans-exclusive, it's safe to assume she opposes any form of policy that grants trans people official gender recognition, with all the rights that entails.
Safe to assume? Okay.
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Old 24th November 2021, 08:34 AM   #2653
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There was a distinct lack of calls to "Rape Whitey" in the black struggle as I remember though - such threats only seem to come from Incels and Trans Rights Activists and funnily enough both groups want to get into womens knickers
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Old 24th November 2021, 08:37 AM   #2654
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Originally Posted by stanfr View Post
My point was, that even though that is the simplistic answer, life/nature aint that simple--see:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...y-simplistic1/

You are free to disagree with this, but it is not a unique position.
This thread would have been a lot different, and would have ended years ago, if it were actually about intersex rights and acceptance.
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Old 24th November 2021, 10:51 AM   #2655
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Originally Posted by stanfr View Post
My point was, that even though that is the simplistic answer, life/nature aint that simple--see:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...y-simplistic1/

You are free to disagree with this, but it is not a unique position.
I will be happy to disagree with that (the following is from a biologist):

Quote:
sex might as well be a binary, because the overwhelming majority of people conform to the definitions of either male or female, which involve differential gamete production (sperm vs. eggs), and only slightly fewer fail to conform to a binary of other primary sexual characteristics (appearance of genitalia) or secondary sexual characteristics that appear at puberty (breasts, pubic hair, etc.).

To be a bit more precise, biological sex in humans is bimodal: if you do a frequency plot with “sex” on the X axis and “frequency of individuals conforming to that sex” on the Y axis, you get a huge peak at “male”, another huge peak at “female”, and then a few tiny blips in between that conform to hermaphrodites or intersexes.

There’s a reason why sex is a binary: evolution produces two distinct sexes who mate with each other to produce offspring. Exactly why there is sex rather than all of us budding off clones or reproducing in other asexual ways is an unsolved problem, but once there is sexual reproduction, you can construct a reasonable theory about why there should be two of them, and that they should be distinct. (A few species have “mating types” that encompass more “sexes”, but these are virtually nonexistent in vertebrates.)
Source
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Old 24th November 2021, 11:35 AM   #2656
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Originally Posted by stanfr View Post
Fair enough I just found this thread today so I don't know the history. I was just going on your comment as it read to me.
At the risk of being a pain in the neck and explaining something that really doesn't need an explanation.



Some of us have been around the block on this thread so many times that we just sort of skip some points and make some assumptions and such.


In discussing intersex issues, you might see some rather snippy responses that you think aren't warranted. It goes to the role played by intersex issues within the context of the thread. We all know that intersex issues are important and sometimes difficult, but they have almost no actual role in any controversial topics discussed here. They are often simply a red herring or diversionary tactic.

We all understand that intersex people exist, but that person who is fully functionally male who wants to use the same locker room as the girls' swim team is not intersex. That kid who holds the all time recod for the 200 meter run in Connecticutt is not intersex. Laurel Hubbard isn't intersex.

Likewise, they haven't surgically transitioned, and they may or may not have taken any hormones. They are fully functional males capable of impregnating females using the tried and true methods made available through evolution. The truly controversial areas for this thread involve males who simply declare that they are women, and expect to be treated as such, even without any medically related transition.

So by all means discuss intersex issues. They are certainly related to the topic of this thread, but recognize that they are kind of peripheral. They aren't central to the controversy. Some answers you get might be because people think you are using a tactic that they have seen before, which is to hide behind intersex or surgically transitioned individuals in order to avoid talking about the actual controversial situations that people feel strongly about.
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Old 24th November 2021, 11:48 AM   #2657
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
I will be happy to disagree with that (the following is from a biologist):

Source
I liked this from one of the comments in the blog post:

Not biological essentialism: a Chinese person is a person from China.

Biological essentialism: Chinese people are inherently good at math.

Uber biological essentialism: People who are good at math are Chinese.

***

Not biological essentialism: A woman is an adult human female.

Biological essentialism: A woman is an inherently feminine minded person.

Uber biological essentialism: A feminine minded person is a woman.
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Old 24th November 2021, 11:51 AM   #2658
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
I will be happy to disagree with that (the following is from a biologist):

Source
I'm not sure about the 'sex is bimodal' though. Bimodal implies that sex is on a continuous distribution with two frequency peaks. It is usually presented as a variant of 'sex is a spectrum'.

If sex is continuously distributed, what is the scale on the horizontal axis? Perhaps there is some meaning of 'bimodal' other than a statistical one.
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Old 24th November 2021, 11:59 AM   #2659
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
I'm not sure about the 'sex is bimodal' though. Bimodal implies that sex is on a continuous distribution with two frequency peaks. It is usually presented as a variant of 'sex is a spectrum'.

If sex is continuously distributed, what is the scale on the horizontal axis? Perhaps there is some meaning of 'bimodal' other than a statistical one.
Yep- it's an obligate binary - there are only two roles and both are required for proper development in mammals.

There was a while in September where I was pointing this out and posting links to a definition every few days

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Old 24th November 2021, 12:01 PM   #2660
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Originally Posted by stanfr View Post
My point was, that even though that is the simplistic answer, life/nature aint that simple--see:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...y-simplistic1/

You are free to disagree with this, but it is not a unique position.
I would say it is virtually an unheard-of position in peer-reviewed papers published by biologists. This is an ideologically-motivated piece by a journalist. It has already been debunked in this thread. There is no new science behind it - the examples discussed have been known about for decades but they do not pose any threat to our understanding of the ontology of sex. It is existing knowledge re-packaged to lead to an ideologically-preferred conclusion (that being male or female should be self-identified).

There is a good critique in this article under the 'categories' section.
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:30 PM   #2661
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
If sex is continuously distributed, what is the scale on the horizontal axis? Perhaps there is some meaning of 'bimodal' other than a statistical one.
I'm not sure if this helps, but from the source I quoted:
Quote:
if you do a frequency plot with “sex” on the X axis and “frequency of individuals conforming to that sex” on the Y axis, you get a huge peak at “male”, another huge peak at “female”, and then a few tiny blips in between that conform to hermaphrodites or intersexes.
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:53 PM   #2662
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
I'm not sure if this helps, but from the source I quoted:
It's still unclear what quantifiable phenomenon Dr. Coyne is mapping along the x-axis.

One possible candidate would be the number of traits associated with a virilized phenotype, e.g. external testes, facial hair, etc.
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Old 24th November 2021, 01:11 PM   #2663
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It's still unclear what quantifiable phenomenon Dr. Coyne is mapping along the x-axis.

One possible candidate would be the number of traits associated with a virilized phenotype, e.g. external testes, facial hair, etc.
I am used to thinking of a 'mode' as a property of a continuous variable, but I suppose the term can also apply to a categorical one (unlike mean and median). So the X axis does not necessarily need to be quantifiable in the sense of being an 'amount of male/female-ness'. It still seems a little odd to refer to something that is basically binary as bimodal, due to a miniscule number of cases that don't fit precisely into one of two categories (and in most of those cases, there is still one of two developmental pathways that was affected).
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Old 24th November 2021, 01:13 PM   #2664
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
I am used to thinking of a 'mode' as a property of a continuous variable, but I suppose the term can also apply to a categorical one (unlike mean and median). So the X axis does not necessarily need to be quantifiable in the sense of being an 'amount of male/female-ness'. It still seems a little odd to refer to something that is basically binary as bimodal, due to a miniscule number of cases that don't fit precisely into one of two categories (and in most of those cases, there is still one of two developmental pathways that was affected).
Maybe this discussion should be moved here ?
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Old 24th November 2021, 04:52 PM   #2665
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Some trans people are not very nice, some even engage in criminal action like death/rape threats. This is true of all people.

Since when do we decide who gets civil rights based on the actions of a lunatic fringe? Somewhere out there some gay person sent a death threat, some black person sent a rape threat, some woman mailed a pipe bomb. How is this relevant to whether or not entire classes of people deserve civil rights?
Aren't you the one who keeps bringing up far-right crazies?
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Old 25th November 2021, 05:27 AM   #2666
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Aren't you the one who keeps bringing up far-right crazies?
far right crazies wield much more political and practical power than any trans boogieman ever will.
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Old 25th November 2021, 01:04 PM   #2667
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
far right crazies wield much more political and practical power than any trans boogieman ever will.
We all remember when the far right crazies stopped the Gender Recognition Act 2004WP in its tracks.
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Old 25th November 2021, 01:34 PM   #2668
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
We all remember when the far right crazies stopped the Gender Recognition Act 2004 in its tracks.
On a more local level, the far right crazies prevented a school board in Loudoun County, Virginia, from passign a policy demanding that students be recognized according to their gender identity.

Oh...wait.

ETA: And, on that note, I saw a picture ot the Loudoun County rapist on line. I won't post it here, but google should be abie to find it. The face is pixelated, at least in what I saw.

I'm really not sure why we would call that person "he". "He" seemed trying pretty hard to look feminine. I mean, the court found that there was a penis, and rape, and such, but that, I'm told, is irrelevant. And the school officials who talked to his mom thought that he identified as female.

Now....the school officials thought he identified as female, and one of Joe Biden's first acts in office was to sign an executive order to treat trans people as their identified gender. I'm pretty sure that person was using the girls' bathroom for a while. I haven't confirmed it, but it was sure seem odd if (s)he were not using it. It seems to me like if (s)he were using the boys' room, the school would be pretty sure that (s)he identified as a boy. Do you suppose for a minute that the school officials that thought (s)he identified as a girl would not follow Department of Education guidelines? It seems a bit far fetched they would do that.

I don't know. Does your girl card get rescinded if you commit a rape? I know that people insist the incident has nothing to do with transgender issues, but it sure seems to like either
a) a transgender girl raped a cisgender girl in the girls' bathroom or
b) a cisgender boy pretended to be a transgender girl, and used the girls' bathroom, ultimately raping a girl in that bathroom.

Unless it was a gender neutral bathroom. Most of the stories that I have seen indicate that it was a girls' bathroom, but I have seen at least one that identified it as a "transgender" bathroom.
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Old 25th November 2021, 01:40 PM   #2669
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
far right crazies wield much more political and practical power than any trans boogieman ever will.
This totally explains why anyone who dissents from the trans-activist orthodoxy gets labeled a far right crazy and canceled. /s
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Old 25th November 2021, 05:15 PM   #2670
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And, on that note, I saw a picture [of] the Loudoun County rapist on line.
I imagine it was the same one run by Daily Wire. I've no opinion on whether this individual is transgender or non-binary, of course, but it seems fair to say they are at least GNC, which falls under the greater trans umbrella.
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Old 26th November 2021, 06:38 PM   #2671
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The "ambiguous statements" thread made me realize that "transwomen are women" is ridiculously ambiguous. Hinging as it does on a meaning of women that none of its proponents can define.
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Old 26th November 2021, 06:51 PM   #2672
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The "ambiguous statements" thread made me realize that "transwomen are women" is ridiculously ambiguous. Hinging as it does on a meaning of women that none of its proponents can define.
The social justice league definition of woman is "anyone who identifies as a woman," so "transwomen are women" is true by definition.
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Old 27th November 2021, 04:45 AM   #2673
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The social justice league definition of woman is "anyone who identifies as a woman," so "transwomen are women" is true by definition.

Does it help you to reinforce your own stereotypes, misconceptions and bigotry (and those of your fellow travellers) to write stuff like this?

Perhaps this document may help with your incomprehension and mockery* - it sets out the official position of the UK Government, and educates you as to what the UK considers "a woman" to be (and how/why it's separate from "a female"):

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/envir...der/2019-02-21


(And I presume that where you refer to "the social justice league".... you mean to write: "various major global governments, including for example the UK and the US Federal Govt, as well as mainstream medical science". That doesn't fit with your agenda though, I guess?).

As you say:




* Though history and precedent in this thread suggest, of course, that it will actually help you with neither.

Last edited by LondonJohn; 27th November 2021 at 04:53 AM.
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Old 27th November 2021, 06:03 AM   #2674
Matthew Best
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
That says "gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself".
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Old 27th November 2021, 06:37 AM   #2675
Olmstead
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Does it help you to reinforce your own stereotypes, misconceptions and bigotry (and those of your fellow travellers) to write stuff like this?

Perhaps this document may help with your incomprehension and mockery* - it sets out the official position of the UK Government, and educates you as to what the UK considers "a woman" to be (and how/why it's separate from "a female"):

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/envir...der/2019-02-21


(And I presume that where you refer to "the social justice league".... you mean to write: "various major global governments, including for example the UK and the US Federal Govt, as well as mainstream medical science". That doesn't fit with your agenda though, I guess?).

As you say:




* Though history and precedent in this thread suggest, of course, that it will actually help you with neither.
The official position is circular nonsense.
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Old 27th November 2021, 06:44 AM   #2676
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
far right crazies wield much more political and practical power than any trans boogieman ever will.
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
(And I presume that where you refer to "the social justice league".... you mean to write: "various major global governments, including for example the UK and the US Federal Govt, as well as mainstream medical science". That doesn't fit with your agenda though, I guess?).
These two statements can't both be right.
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Old 27th November 2021, 07:31 AM   #2677
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Does it help you to reinforce your own stereotypes, misconceptions and bigotry (and those of your fellow travellers) to write stuff like this?
Nope, I'm just passing along what I've been told.

https://twitter.com/kirbyconrod/stat...59800515244041
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Old 27th November 2021, 07:33 AM   #2678
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
That says "gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself".
And it doesn't appear to define woman or man.

Unlike, for example, this page:
Quote:
By ‘woman’ we refer to any person who identifies as a woman.
I think it's telling that some folks will resort to accusations of bigotry when asked to say what they mean by common words at the crux of the debate.
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Old 27th November 2021, 08:48 AM   #2679
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
These two statements can't both be right.
Do trans trolls like Jessica Yaniv or nobodies on twitter making threats enjoy government support for their activities?
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Old 27th November 2021, 09:46 AM   #2680
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Do trans trolls like Jessica Yaniv or nobodies on twitter making threats enjoy government support for their activities?
Yes.

Well, sort of.

Here's the thing. No one is going to stand on the floor of the House of Commons and say, "Trans women should have the right to sue anyone who refuses to was their balls!" No governor is going to sign a law and say, "With this law, we're going to ensure that 52 year old people on the sex offender list will finally be able to walk around the women's spa without having to hide their penises as if they should be ashamed." No school board is going to say, "Why should our students have to prove who they are just to use the girls' bathroom? Those stories about rape or whatever are just anecdotes!" No one will point to those as desired outcomes, but they are inevitable outcomes.

Those bogeymen all did what they did with the full support of the government.
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