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Old 19th January 2018, 06:49 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I think you miss the point I'm trying to make, so let me try again.

There's no way to convict one parent and acquit the other.

The "lewd act" the father is accused of, but the mother not, is a contrast to what I'm arguing. That's indeed something that the mother didn't do and that can have escaped her attention.

But the torture through malnourishment, locking them up, depriving them of anything resembling education, and shackling for days on end, is an ongoing 24/7 process that must have been carried out by both parents. There's no way that has only been carried out by one parent without the other knowing and thus participating. Both parents are responsible for raising their kids.

So if that all is established as fact, both parents must be guilty. At most, the attorney of one of them can try to argue that the other set it up and that their client should receive some leniency in the sentencing.
It happens. Different lawyers, different juries sometimes result in different outcomes. Weird, I know, but say one was convicted before the other- should they be denied their day in court?
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Old 19th January 2018, 07:04 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
It happens. Different lawyers, different juries sometimes result in different outcomes. Weird, I know, but say one was convicted before the other- should they be denied their day in court?
Fair enough, with two separate trials I can see how that could work out. But they'll have one, joint trial, won't they, with one jury hearing all the evidence against both? I can't see how one jury could come to such a conclusion.
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Old 19th January 2018, 07:10 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
If there aren't enough public defenders available, yes. Attorneys are encouraged to do such work pro bono.
Firms generally register to be in a rotation to take such cases. I would be surprised if the PD doesn't at least get a private attorney to back him up.

I'm interested to see what the wife and her attorneys do. The only defense I can see possible is her claiming she was coerced by the husband and was a victim herself.

The guy here is just royally **********. I can't imagine what the defense could present and the prosecutors will have no trouble meeting their burden. Maybe his lawyer can quibble on some details and get a few of the charges thrown out and end up with a shorter sentence. Turpin though is 56, so, he maybe cuts the current potential of 94 years in half, that's 47 years, still life. Knock off time for good behavior and he's out in his 80s. Anyone really loving his odds of getting concurrent sentences?
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Old 19th January 2018, 07:15 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I think you miss the point I'm trying to make, so let me try again.

There's no way to convict one parent and acquit the other.

The "lewd act" the father is accused of, but the mother not, is a contrast to what I'm arguing. That's indeed something that the mother didn't do and that can have escaped her attention.

But the torture through malnourishment, locking them up, depriving them of anything resembling education, and shackling for days on end, is an ongoing 24/7 process that must have been carried out by both parents. There's no way that has only been carried out by one parent without the other knowing and thus participating. Both parents are responsible for raising their kids.

So if that all is established as fact, both parents must be guilty. At most, the attorney of one of them can try to argue that the other set it up and that their client should receive some leniency in the sentencing.
Theoretically, the mother could present a defense that she was a victim of ******* husband and coerced into performing her role. I can't imagine another defense from her. She'd have to play along with her lawyers so it will be interesting to see if she goes that route.
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Old 19th January 2018, 07:28 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Theoretically, the mother could present a defense that she was a victim of ******* husband and coerced into performing her role. I can't imagine another defense from her. She'd have to play along with her lawyers so it will be interesting to see if she goes that route.
She could certainly try. The success of such a gamble will of course depend on what the children have to say about her role in the abuse during their testimony.
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Old 19th January 2018, 07:47 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Theoretically, the mother could present a defense that she was a victim of ******* husband and coerced into performing her role. I can't imagine another defense from her. She'd have to play along with her lawyers so it will be interesting to see if she goes that route.
Yeah, but does that absolve her of guilt? She has a responsibility to feed her children. If her husband coerces her not to, she could and should have run to the police or CPS to report it. I'd think that defense would only lessen her portion of the blame, but not acquit her.
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Old 19th January 2018, 08:42 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Theoretically, the mother could present a defense that she was a victim of ******* husband and coerced into performing her role. I can't imagine another defense from her. She'd have to play along with her lawyers so it will be interesting to see if she goes that route.
Could try

She could say her showing she didn't want to do it was "non-verbal". While she did it
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Old 19th January 2018, 09:10 PM   #168
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Question: How can these kids be helped? And what is the likely outcome? If people have gotten into their teens and 20s with no education, limited exposure to the outside world, and pretty much continuous physical and mental abuse, including starvation, how much damage can be repaired? How long would it take them to learn to read and write on the high school level, if they have to start from scratch? What physical deficits can be overcome? How can they learn to interact with other children their own age, who are very likely to shun them as weird? Will they be able to hold jobs? Etc.
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Old 19th January 2018, 09:20 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Did you look at the titles? Hundreds of kids movies. And you are claiming that the parents only ever indulged themselves? I'm a skeptic.
Has anyone claimed the kids never watched the DVDs?

They didn't play with the toys, we know that because they're still in the packaging. They probably did play the games. We know that the parents indulged themselves with food because they're not malnourished, we know the kids were not fed enough because they are malnourished.

And it's likely somewhere in that video library is where they learned about 911 and cell phones.

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Old 19th January 2018, 09:21 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Is it customary that the court appoints a private attorney when there's a public defender's office?

It depends on the resources of the area. Some places have a large and diverse public defender's office. Others have private attorneys who sign up to take on pro bono cases. Still others may have a judge appoint a private attorney with some specialized knowledge of an otherwise unusual area of law.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Fair enough, with two separate trials I can see how that could work out. But they'll have one, joint trial, won't they, with one jury hearing all the evidence against both? I can't see how one jury could come to such a conclusion.

Two lawyers definitely means they'll blame each other. The case will probably largely be decided by whether they're tried together or separately. A separate trial would be great news for the mother (always the mother). A joint trial would be more difficult.
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Old 19th January 2018, 09:57 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Question: How can these kids be helped? And what is the likely outcome? If people have gotten into their teens and 20s with no education, limited exposure to the outside world, and pretty much continuous physical and mental abuse, including starvation, how much damage can be repaired? How long would it take them to learn to read and write on the high school level, if they have to start from scratch? What physical deficits can be overcome? How can they learn to interact with other children their own age, who are very likely to shun them as weird? Will they be able to hold jobs? Etc.
You may have heard of it, but the case below was a lot lot lot lot worse and apparently the kids are doing not bad, given the circumstances

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case
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Old 19th January 2018, 10:28 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You may have heard of it, but the case below was a lot lot lot lot worse and apparently the kids are doing not bad, given the circumstances

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case

Did you read it all? "Not bad," but not great either.
Quote:
Berthold Kepplinger, head of the clinic where Elisabeth and her children were being treated, said that Elisabeth and the three children held captive in the cellar required further therapy to help them adjust to the light after years in semi-darkness. They also needed treatment to help them cope with all the extra space that they now had in which to move about.[53]
It sounds like they're adapting as best they can. The will to survive can be strong. But it's hard to believe they could ever be "normal," however you define it.
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Old 19th January 2018, 11:07 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Did you read it all? "Not bad," but not great either.


It sounds like they're adapting as best they can. The will to survive can be strong. But it's hard to believe they could ever be "normal," however you define it.
A I said it was a lot lot lot lot worse
B I never said "normal"

Nice attempted twisting though
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Old 20th January 2018, 12:47 AM   #174
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This bickering is needless. I think we can all agree the kids have a rough road ahead. But they are fortunate to have been discovered in an area with plentiful resources compared to say small-town Texas where they had lived previously. Who knows, but hopefully they'll be able to recover without too much hardship.
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Old 20th January 2018, 03:40 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
I absolutely can.

If you're going to predict that one parent will be held 'more responsible' than the other, I can agree with that prediction also.
And it will be the male parent.
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Old 20th January 2018, 03:42 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I saw a few kids movies; hardly hundreds. In fact it seemed to me that children's movies didn't even comprise the bulk of the collection, just to tell from the few photographs provided.

There's nothing wrong with being skeptical.

My own approach is that, no matter what you may think you see in them, a handful of group still photographs taken two or three years ago or even more do not provide sufficiently-compelling evidence to suspect the local police of lying or exaggerating in their report about the nauseating condition of the home and the children when they entered the residence a couple of days ago. If nothing else, the fact that the children are still in the hospital recovering as of the latest reports, supports the contention that they were in bad shape.
Who will pay for their medical bills?
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Old 20th January 2018, 03:45 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Theoretically, the mother could present a defense that she was a victim of ******* husband and coerced into performing her role. I can't imagine another defense from her. She'd have to play along with her lawyers so it will be interesting to see if she goes that route.
Why couldn't he use the same defence he was coerced by his wife?
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Old 20th January 2018, 08:08 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why couldn't he use the same defence he was coerced by his wife?
It's probably problematic for him to use that as an affirmative defense if he's also got the lewd act with a child charge. Prosecutors and jurors aren't likely to be sympathetic a battered husband defense presented by someone who engaged in an act of sexual predation.
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Old 20th January 2018, 08:19 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Could try

She could say her showing she didn't want to do it was "non-verbal". While she did it
Any defense she mounts is going to be a Hail Mary play. The prosecutors are going to meet their burden. The doctors, sheriff deputies statements and pictures and video are going to slay these two. She's going to need to offer an affirmative defense and that's pretty much it for her.
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Old 20th January 2018, 08:30 AM   #180
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His public defender is quoted as saying that he will engage a "vigorous defense", and that the case will be tried in court and not in public.

I wouldn't be surprised if they attempt to have the trial location moved.
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Old 20th January 2018, 09:24 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
His public defender is quoted as saying that he will engage a "vigorous defense", and that the case will be tried in court and not in public.

I wouldn't be surprised if they attempt to have the trial location moved.
Exactly where? I don't see much hope of a sympathetic jury anywhere in California.

ETA: I know that much of the US sees Cali has a hippie, liberal place, but that is far from the case. The county I live in is 75% Republican. The Bay Area (San Francisco, Oakland, Berkeley, Palo Alto) is very liberal, but I doubt a trial there would be very different.
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Old 20th January 2018, 09:34 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
His public defender is quoted as saying that he will engage a "vigorous defense", and that the case will be tried in court and not in public.

I wouldn't be surprised if they attempt to have the trial location moved.
Accomplishing what in a case that has international media attention?
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Old 20th January 2018, 09:36 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Exactly where? I don't see much hope of a sympathetic jury anywhere in California.

ETA: I know that much of the US sees Cali has a hippie, liberal place, but that is far from the case. The county I live in is 75% Republican. The Bay Area (San Francisco, Oakland, Berkeley, Palo Alto) is very liberal, but I doubt a trial there would be very different.
I'm pretty sure the one thing all Californians can agree on is that torturing and starving children is bad.
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Old 20th January 2018, 10:05 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Accomplishing what in a case that has international media attention?
I don't know if anything is accomplished but trials are sometimes moved or requested to be moved.
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Old 20th January 2018, 10:09 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Exactly where? I don't see much hope of a sympathetic jury anywhere in California.
I don't know where. Requests to move trials are not uncommon when there is heavy media coverage. I'm not implying that it would be effective. I said I wouldn't be surprised if it's asked for.
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Old 20th January 2018, 10:17 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
She could certainly try. The success of such a gamble will of course depend on what the children have to say about her role in the abuse during their testimony.
Interesting point. 7 (?) of them are adults and could testify in open court. The usual tactics used against witnesses who happen to be minors would not apply.

Nor would the protections provided by the state.

Does the US have some rule for exceptional cases? I have no idea.
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Old 20th January 2018, 10:36 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Who will pay for their medical bills?
Chances are they would be enrolled in Medicaid, the insurance program for lower-income people (that the ACA expanded and Republicans keep trying to cut), and/or CHIP, the health plan for lower-income children (that is the subject of budget debates now). The state also likely has a budget for emergency social services that would include medical care. The doctors and hospitals also might write some of it off as uncompensated care.
https://www.coveredca.com/medi-cal/
http://govthub.com/california-benefi...n=GH+CHIP+S+CA

But this is the only country in the First World where that question could even be asked. Everywhere else, everybody takes coverage or insurance in one form or another for granted.

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Old 20th January 2018, 10:52 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Question: How can these kids be helped? And what is the likely outcome? If people have gotten into their teens and 20s with no education, limited exposure to the outside world, and pretty much continuous physical and mental abuse, including starvation, how much damage can be repaired?
Speaking from no authority whatsoever (I program computers for a living; I'm not a sociologist nor child development expert) I'd say the younger the child is, the better their chances.

Quote:
How long would it take them to learn to read and write on the high school level, if they have to start from scratch? What physical deficits can be overcome? How can they learn to interact with other children their own age, who are very likely to shun them as weird? Will they be able to hold jobs? Etc.
A couple of the children seem to be mentally handicapped; they will likely need long term care and end up in group homes. I'd say the boys will do all right, especially the one going to college. By extrapolation, the younger girls will as well. They do know how to read and write, so that gives them a great head start.

If, however, their overall knowledge of the outside world comes from Disney movies, they'll be in for some unpleasant surprises.

As for school. I don't really know how well kids in general get along at school. If they can make a friend or two that will help a lot. I expect the majority of the other kids at the school will ignore them.
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Old 20th January 2018, 10:55 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I'm pretty sure the one thing all Californians can agree on is that torturing and starving children is bad.
That was my point. Hurting children crosses political denominations.
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Old 20th January 2018, 02:18 PM   #190
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With regard to costs, I doubt the kids will have a problem

Apparently there have already been offers from rich weirdos round the world asking to adopt them.

Sending loads of cash is the obvious alternative

Not that they don't deserve every penny they can get though.
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Old 20th January 2018, 02:38 PM   #191
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The two dogs are being adopted out, but I don't know if that's such a good idea. Those kids might have emotional ties to them and there might be goodness in keeping them together. "We loved our pooches but the government took them away from us." That's not cool.
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Old 20th January 2018, 02:55 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why couldn't he use the same defence he was coerced by his wife?

The Postman Always Rings Twice

When each defendant blames the other, the natural inclination is to say, "To hell with both of you."
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Old 20th January 2018, 04:46 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
I'd say the boys will do all right, especially the one going to college.
Hmmm...maybe "going to college" might accidentally carry some misleading suggestions about how much freedom and agency he had. What I've read specifies that it was going to a music class at a local community college while his mother who drove him waited in the parking lot.

Interestingly we have this information from a classmate:

Quote:
A former college classmate of one of the 13 tortured children said she will never forget the young man who wore the same clothes every day and didn't look anyone in the eye.
Angie Parra took a music class with one of the older children of the brood at Mount San Jacinto College. She described the young man as a "sweet, but odd introvert" in an interview with NBC4.
Parra also said he was "famished" and recalled when he scarfed down food at a school potluck.
"He stood by the table and didn’t sit down," Parra said. "He literally ate plate after plate after plate."

"I could see sadness in his face," she said. "His eyes – he never wanted to make eye contact with anyone."
So it turns out the fact one of them attended a college class is hardly an "inconsistency" or somehow exculpatory of the parents, in fact his classmates even made observations about his appearance and demeanor that are consistent with chronic maltreatment at home.
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Old 20th January 2018, 05:03 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by NBC Los Angeles
forced them to eat rationed meals once per day. The 13 children – whose ages ranged from 2 to 29 – were forced to stay awake through the night and sleep through the day.
One meal per day in the middle of the night. Another article says they all went to bed at 4-5am. Again I wonder if the mother had that same sleep cycle so that she would be awake when the children were awake. Was the college class during daytime or night?
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Old 20th January 2018, 05:26 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Was the college class during daytime or night?
What difference does it make?
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Old 20th January 2018, 05:41 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
What difference does it make?
I'm curious if he had a different sleep cycle to attend day classes. Like was he the only one sleeping at night?

The local fire department has some explaining to do. Annual fire inspections are mandatory for schools including private schools like this home. But it's reported that there never were any inspections there. If there had been, the inspectors would have seen the situation and also seen that all of the students are asleep.

The trips to Disneyland and other photographed outdoor activities must have been a challenge for kids conditioned to sleep during the daytime. I would expect them to flop down and fall asleep right there in the Magic Kingdom.
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Old 20th January 2018, 05:57 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I'm curious if he had a different sleep cycle to attend day classes. Like was he the only one sleeping at night?
Obviously if the class was during the day, he had to have been awake for it; so logically he would have been either made to wake up "early" or kept up "late" relative to the rest on the day of the class. When I took classes at a community college most classes met one, occasionally two days a week.

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The local fire department has some explaining to do. Annual fire inspections are mandatory for schools including private schools like this home. But it's reported that there never were any inspections there.
That is certainly true. Irrespective of the torture allegations, it has been independently verified that the home was registered as a "private school", and that despite legal requirements the local safety department never inspected the residence even once.
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Old 20th January 2018, 06:19 PM   #198
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The whole thing could have been stopped with one fire inspection. They were home schooled for their entire lives.
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Old 20th January 2018, 07:07 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Question: How can these kids be helped? And what is the likely outcome? If people have gotten into their teens and 20s with no education, limited exposure to the outside world, and pretty much continuous physical and mental abuse, including starvation, how much damage can be repaired? How long would it take them to learn to read and write on the high school level, if they have to start from scratch? What physical deficits can be overcome? How can they learn to interact with other children their own age, who are very likely to shun them as weird? Will they be able to hold jobs? Etc.
There are similarities to the Jaycee Duggard case: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Jaycee_Dugard

She has been very forthright in describing her ordeal and how she continues to recover from it.
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Old 20th January 2018, 07:28 PM   #200
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I'm curious to know if they were also home-birthed. Do they even have birth certificates?
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