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Old 22nd January 2018, 05:03 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
That was my point. Hurting children crosses political denominations.
Depends on how you do it. See the using SCHIP to fight against DACA and how it is being presented as an either or situation.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 01:01 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The kids, child services, the adults of course are on their own.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 04:52 PM   #243
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I see a strong element of narcissism in the parents. All the boys have the same pudding bowl hair cut as the father and the girls have the same dark flowing locks as the mother. Plus the desire to have a large number of kids in today's age of the smaller family is likely another aspect of the narcissism. Then there's him overseeing his wife having sex with other men trawled from the internet

The torture, starvation and social isolation of the children makes me suspect something unspeakable happened within the family that meant they had to operate in extreme secrecy to cover it up.

Perhaps one of them died and they omitted to report it. Or something of that ilk.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 12:06 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Underdevelopment doesn't seem to be seen in the photo. Severe malnourishment must have occurred since the photo was taken. That's what I'm saying.
That won't make you shrink.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 01:01 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Who will pay for their medical bills?
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The kids, child services, the adults of course are on their own.
Crowdfunding perhaps, at some point in the future. For now, there's child protective services and Adult Protective Services. As dependent adults who were abused, they would be covered.

I don't think it's fair to treat the "adults" as "hey, you're on your own now!" in this case. I'm not too concerned that these kids are going to be stuck with a massive hospital bill at the end of this.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 04:14 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Crowdfunding perhaps, at some point in the future. For now, there's child protective services and Adult Protective Services. As dependent adults who were abused, they would be covered.

I don't think it's fair to treat the "adults" as "hey, you're on your own now!" in this case. I'm not too concerned that these kids are going to be stuck with a massive hospital bill at the end of this.
That is what our society demands. I am sure they can end up in prison for something at some time, that is the prefered method of dealing with troubled adults after all.

Turning the children out onto the street is the standard for kids in CPS custody when they turn 18 after all. These are all basic standard procedures why should these people get treated any different because their case made the news?
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Old 23rd January 2018, 08:14 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is what our society demands. I am sure they can end up in prison for something at some time, that is the prefered method of dealing with troubled adults after all.

Turning the children out onto the street is the standard for kids in CPS custody when they turn 18 after all. These are all basic standard procedures why should these people get treated any different because their case made the news?
CPS is Child Protective Services. There are also adult protective services, by whatever name, for adults who are unable to care for themselves, which is likely the case for the age 18+ people here. The notoriety of the family at least means that there are people who will help them get whatever services are available, which (almost) certainly would include Medicaid, since they don't have jobs or income. I suspect shrinks and social workers will volunteer their time just for a chance to work with such an unusual case. They have relatives that apparently are willing to pitch in. And media attention makes it easier to raise money for them.

It is a tragic commentary, though, on our system that there could be any question about how their treatment will be paid for. In any other First World country with universal health care, no one would even think to ask.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 09:17 AM   #248
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Eldest Son Maintained 3.93 GPA at Local Community College

Originally Posted by KABC-TV Los Angeles
That son was a student at Mt. San Jacinto College for six semesters and maintained a 3.93 grade-point-average, according to a transcript obtained by ABC News...

Doesn't know what a police officer is.

http://abc7.com/perris-torture-case-...93-gpa/2978384
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Old 23rd January 2018, 09:25 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
CPS is Child Protective Services. There are also adult protective services, by whatever name, for adults who are unable to care for themselves, which is likely the case for the age 18+ people here. The notoriety of the family at least means that there are people who will help them get whatever services are available, which (almost) certainly would include Medicaid, since they don't have jobs or income. I suspect shrinks and social workers will volunteer their time just for a chance to work with such an unusual case. They have relatives that apparently are willing to pitch in. And media attention makes it easier to raise money for them.

It is a tragic commentary, though, on our system that there could be any question about how their treatment will be paid for. In any other First World country with universal health care, no one would even think to ask.
Yep these people are special, a less headline grabbing abuse would of course be totally different and the adult children in that would be on their own unless they are mentally incompetent.

But ending up homeless at 18 is not exactly uncommon for those aging out of CPS.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 09:28 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep these people are special, a less headline grabbing abuse would of course be totally different and the adult children in that would be on their own unless they are mentally incompetent.

But ending up homeless at 18 is not exactly uncommon for those aging out of CPS.
That's why we have for-profit prisons.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 10:13 AM   #251
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It is possible that one or more of these children were born with mental, neurological and physical disorders which were not caused by any abuse which may have happened. It's possible that the source of "don't know what a police officer is" could be from attempts to talk to children with inherent cognitive disorder.

We cannot assume that all of these children were "normal" at the beginning of their lives.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 10:26 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Eldest Son Maintained 3.93 GPA at Local Community College




Doesn't know what a police officer is.

http://abc7.com/perris-torture-case-...93-gpa/2978384
You know, the articles (plural) I read clearly said that some of the children in the house didn't even know what a police officer was. I assume the son taking classes was not one of those. (They probably meant the younger ones who had barely ever been outside at all.)

There's really no inconsistency. Also, the eldest son was taking ONE CLASS at a time. It's really not that difficult to get an A in one class per semester, especially if you have absolutely nothing else going on in your life.

I also don't think it's so odd that these nuts started letting one older kid (male, of course) get a little bit of restricted education. They were probably thinking about things like furthering the family line, what would happen when the parents are deceased, and so on. I just don't find any of it inconsistent. Bonkers, but not inconsistent.

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Old 23rd January 2018, 10:38 AM   #253
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Ok, here is the direct quote from the District Attorney. "Many of the children didn't know what a police officer was."

It's not all of them - but many of them.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 11:18 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Ok, here is the direct quote from the District Attorney. "Many of the children didn't know what a police officer was."

It's not all of them - but many of them.
And it strongly suggests that at least one of them did, which is not inconsistent with the supposition that the one who went to college did.

It's also possible that the source of "don't know what a police officer is" could be from attempts to talk to children with acquired cognitive disorder caused by long term malnutrition. It's also possible that the abuse alleged in the news stories started more recently as a result of which it was the younger children who acquired cognitive disorders, but that the one who attended college had been adequately fed during the relevant stages of development.

I can understand being sceptical about the veracity of all this, but it seems like you're trying to invent inconsistencies where none exist.

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Old 23rd January 2018, 11:50 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
And it strongly suggests that at least one of them did, which is not inconsistent with the supposition that the one who went to college did.
The DA used the word many. I really hope that it wasn't one or two and he decided to say many.

Quote:
It's also possible that the source of "don't know what a police officer is" could be from attempts to talk to children with acquired cognitive disorder caused by long term malnutrition. It's also possible that the abuse alleged in the news stories started more recently as a result of which it was the younger children who acquired cognitive disorders, but that the one who attended college had been adequately fed during the relevant stages of development.

I can understand being sceptical about the veracity of all this, but it seems like you're trying to invent inconsistencies where none exist.
I'm not trying to invent inconsistencies. I'm seeing them and reading them. "They were all forced to sleep during the day" may or may not be an inconsistent claim.

I'm sorry if my curiosity and skepticism is difficult to stomach.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 01:20 PM   #256
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No, you're definitely inventing inconsistencies. One adult going to college doesn't conflict even in the least with the statement that "many" of the children didn't know what a police officer was, or that the kids were made to habitually sleep during the day time. And your ability to dismiss the observations of police who discovered the children and the state of the house in situ, and the medical opinions of doctors who have actually been treating the family for the last week, based on your personal interpretation of a still photograph taken two years ago is amusingly 911-truther-like.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 01:31 PM   #257
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Just as an aside

We don't that GPA thingy Americans do.

Is 3.93 crap, good or mahh?
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Old 23rd January 2018, 01:33 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Just as an aside

We don't that GPA thingy Americans do.

Is 3.93 crap, good or mahh?
Mostly A's a few A-'s. 4.0 is straight A's and few colleges offer anything like and A+.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 01:48 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Just as an aside

We don't that GPA thingy Americans do.

Is 3.93 crap, good or mahh?
Mostly A's and A-'s. Depending on the school and number of credits taken, possibly a B+ could slip in there.

My current GPA is 3.9, so it certainly doesn't require a whiz. I very much doubt the kid was taking advanced math or science classes. (I think I remember reading the current class's subject was music, but I could have dreamed that up, and I simply refuse to go check right now because I have too many tabs open already.)


Maintaining an A in six (consecutive - that part is important) freshman-level college courses in something like humanities or accounting is a cakewalk. People who screw those kinds of classes up typically do it because they slack, skip sessions, or don't complete assignments.

If this boy was the oldest and the abuse started later in his life (which seems to be the case), he was probably among the least cognitively affected children. Hence a potential reason for his scumbag parents to let him learn a thing or two, since he was probably next in line to be responsible for the rest of the brood.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 01:53 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Just as an aside

We don't that GPA thingy Americans do.

Is 3.93 crap, good or mahh?
4.0 is perfect. We don't know what his curricula was for the 6 semesters. But it does suggest that his home schooling was good. That would be in spite of the shackling, beating, strangling, starvation, sleeping during the day, etc.

He would have also qualified for admission to this college which is here: https://www.msjc.edu
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Old 23rd January 2018, 01:57 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I very much doubt the kid was taking advanced math or science classes. (I think I remember reading the current class's subject was music, but I could have dreamed that up, and I simply refuse to go check right now because I have too many tabs open already.)
A reporter interviewed a woman that was in his music class. No mention of any other classes he would have been taking.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 02:00 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
4.0 is perfect. We don't know what his curricula was for the 6 semesters. But it does suggest that his home schooling was good. That would be in spite of the shackling, beating, strangling, starvation, sleeping during the day, etc.

He would have also qualified for admission to this college which is here: https://www.msjc.edu
No, it doesn't. It was a community college, not a university. It says more about his mom's commitment to actually get him to class. For entry level community college courses I would posit that attendance is the primary determinant of grade, not pre-existing academic achievement. Which is actually quite surprising.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 02:03 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
A reporter interviewed a woman that was in his music class. No mention of any other classes he would have been taking.
Then I remembered correctly.

That was the only class he was enrolled in.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 02:05 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
No, it doesn't. It was a community college, not a university. It says more about his mom's commitment to actually get him to class. For entry level community college courses I would posit that attendance is the primary determinant of grade, not pre-existing academic achievement. Which is actually quite surprising.
Some in this thread have suggested that the kids would be illiterate. Suggested a complete detachment from the world including television.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 02:06 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
No, it doesn't. It was a community college, not a university. It says more about his mom's commitment to actually get him to class. For entry level community college courses I would posit that attendance is the primary determinant of grade, not pre-existing academic achievement. Which is actually quite surprising.
This is what I was trying to say, but I was afraid someone would think I was knocking community college if I weren't careful with my wording. I'm not knocking community college at all - I'm simply saying that entry-level classes at community colleges are often demonstrably less difficult than at university (generally speaking, always exceptions, yada yada disclaimers, **** you skeptics, etc.). The reason for the difference is largely due to some high schools having more advanced curricula than others. At community college, at least the first semester or two are spent evening out that gap amongst the students.

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Old 23rd January 2018, 02:07 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
That was the only class he was enrolled in.
Wouldn't that be an assumption? I'm not following your statement.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 02:15 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Wouldn't that be an assumption? I'm not following your statement.
My statement, to put it bluntly, is that damn near anyone could manage an A in a single low-level class at a community college, especially if they had NO other commitments to distract them. He was enrolled for six semesters, but only taking one class at a time. That is nothing.

Furthermore, his parents probably ordered him to do well, so he did well. *ETA* - Maybe they even helped him with his classwork at home. They certainly had plenty of time...



Speaking of what everyone's statements are - can I ask you a question? People (myself included) have been flaring up and down throughout this thread, wondering about the exact nature of your skepticism and sometimes snarling at you over our own interpretations of it. That's not necessarily fair. So I will ask you directly. I'm still not clear - do you think the police/state/CPS/whatever are overstating the abuse in this case?

If so, why do you think they're doing that? If not, why are you concerned about these strained inconsistencies?

Abuse is a very bizarre thing sometimes. The fact that the details of this case don't make full sense wouldn't even cause me to bat an eye. For one thing, I'm not there or involved in any way, so what the hell do I know compared to the people working with the family? And secondly, you can't "understand" things like this. Not the way the people who committed the acts did. They had their own reasoning, and even if they dictated it all out for us, it wouldn't gel in most people's minds. Because most people do not think anything like these parents. I'm glad they're competent to stand trial, but there is nothing sane about them.

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Old 23rd January 2018, 02:18 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
4.0 is perfect. We don't know what his curricula was for the 6 semesters. But it does suggest that his home schooling was good. That would be in spite of the shackling, beating, strangling, starvation, sleeping during the day, etc.
In case you really were wondering, this is the sort of post that gets people's hackles up and starts them asking if you're defending the parents or trying to minimize the abuse.


ETA - I would add one thing, which is that "sleeping during the day" should not be included on your list of discrepancies in any case. College students turn sleeping during the day into a lifestyle, especially around finals. Also, the articles I read were clear in saying that the parents also kept a somewhat nocturnal schedule. So it was less them forcing the kids to sleep all day, and more them forcing the kids to keep to their schedule. The house schedule. Whatever.

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Old 23rd January 2018, 02:52 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
but only taking one class at a time.
How do you know that? I haven't seen that reported.


Quote:
I'm still not clear - do you think the police/state/CPS/whatever are overstating the abuse in this case?
I'm suggesting that the abuse may have been irregular over time and across individual children. This is suggested to me by visual evidence and various information presented. The charges themselves may be accurate but the narrative given by the District Attorney may be overly generalized. It's also possible that the charges aren't fully accurate as sometimes the prosecutor aims too high.

Putting aside what was found in the house and the medical examinations, the story of what happened over 29 years must have come from the children themselves. It can be ugly, but the defense is likely to try to impeach or disqualify testimony about what happened. "You deprived Janet of sufficient food for years! Well, Janet doesn't ever seem to eat very much in spite of putting big plates of food in front of her. We couldn't exactly shove it down her throat." "You physically abused David and he can no longer walk properly! Well no, David was born with some disabilities and he always did walk with some difficulties."
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Old 23rd January 2018, 02:59 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
If this boy was the oldest and the abuse started later in his life (which seems to be the case), he was probably among the least cognitively affected children. Hence a potential reason for his scumbag parents to let him learn a thing or two, since he was probably next in line to be responsible for the rest of the brood.
And majoring in music makes me think they had plans to take this on the road.

I picture them all piling into a [Mondrian themed schoolbus].

Holy... that's the same haircuts.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 03:52 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It is possible that one or more of these children were born with mental, neurological and physical disorders which were not caused by any abuse which may have happened. It's possible that the source of "don't know what a police officer is" could be from attempts to talk to children with inherent cognitive disorder.

We cannot assume that all of these children were "normal" at the beginning of their lives.
Even so, what parent would chain that child to a bed and let it lie in its own excreta? Even if a child is born with a congenital defect, it would still be grossly cruel.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 04:22 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Even so, what parent would chain that child to a bed and let it lie in its own excreta? Even if a child is born with a congenital defect, it would still be grossly cruel.
A parent with mental illness might do that. The alternative is a sane parent with wildly sadistic tendencies. But then you've right back at mental illness.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 04:29 PM   #273
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There are no charges related to the 2 year old girl. Reports say she is healthy and unharmed. The house is described as filthy and stinky. Apparently there are no charges based on that for this little girl.

If the parents have been fully consistent with their treatment of their children then they don't abuse or malnourish their children at least up until age 2. We don't know when it starts or if this girl gets better treatment than any other had gotten, or what.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 04:38 PM   #274
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I don't think we'll know what really happened until the trial, and, really, not until the book deal.

Depending on how severely impaired they are, it might the talk show circuit.

And, if they do cash in with book deals or other media appearances, good for them. somehow I don't think they are ready to start earning a living through conventional means.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 04:55 PM   #275
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The older ones are likely to get job offers or placements if for no other reason than that good people will want to help them get their feet.

The mother's sister says that the parents stopped going to church and were exploring other religions, FWIW. There is also a bizarre account of the parents traveling across the country so that the wife could have sex with a guy they met online. Then some time later the parents went back to that same hotel to relive the event and have sex with each other. It was described as a relived celebration of the previously arranged extramarital sex. WTF?
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Old 23rd January 2018, 05:15 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Even so, what parent would chain that child to a bed and let it lie in its own excreta? Even if a child is born with a congenital defect, it would still be grossly cruel.
The same kind of people who have more than 30 cats, with 8 or 9 dead ones in the basement freezer waiting burial that won't happen until the city interferes.

You know, you think you can handle things but the stress keeps piling up. You're barely maintaining. Then an event happens, maybe a health issue or a financial set back and the next think you know the cat you thought was just fat has a litter and you can't do anything about it because the litter is in the attic and you have to be a cat to get up there, and the kid with mental issues won't shut-up and you end up tying them down just temporarily because right now Mommy needs some bourbon and Quiet and you had better provide the quiet in you know what's good for you! And if that means you poop your pants then poop your pants, gawdammit!! We’ll deal with it when Mommy can deal with it and that might not be until tomorrow!

A few days later you find yourself doing it again, only you’re screaming at another kid saying ”if you don’t like what I’m doing to Emily then you can either keep her quiet yourself or you can join her ‘cause I’ve got plenty of rope for everyone and if I have to tie up everyone to get just a few minutes of QUIET then everybody WILL GET TIED UP DO I MAKE MYSELF UNDERSTOOD?!!!!

Months later the bondage routine has become routine, the kittens have been dealt with by catching them one at a time and clubbing them with a shovel, their tiny bodies disposed of one or two at a time. Order has been restored to a level Mom and Dad can cope with, even though they know secretly they’ve gone too far, which is why nobody can have friends anymore. Nobody but family is allowed into the house because all hell will break loose if outsiders see what is going on.

They don’t see themselves as bad people, just people forced to do things you and I won’t understand because we weren’t there facing the pressure they were facing.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 05:26 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The same kind of people who have more than 30 cats, with 8 or 9 dead ones in the basement freezer waiting burial that won't happen until the city interferes.

You know, you think you can handle things but the stress keeps piling up. You're barely maintaining. Then an event happens, maybe a health issue or a financial set back and the next think you know the cat you thought was just fat has a litter and you can't do anything about it because the litter is in the attic and you have to be a cat to get up there, and the kid with mental issues won't shut-up and you end up tying them down just temporarily because right now Mommy needs some bourbon and Quiet and you had better provide the quiet in you know what's good for you! And if that means you poop your pants then poop your pants, gawdammit!! We’ll deal with it when Mommy can deal with it and that might not be until tomorrow!

A few days later you find yourself doing it again, only you’re screaming at another kid saying ”if you don’t like what I’m doing to Emily then you can either keep her quiet yourself or you can join her ‘cause I’ve got plenty of rope for everyone and if I have to tie up everyone to get just a few minutes of QUIET then everybody WILL GET TIED UP DO I MAKE MYSELF UNDERSTOOD?!!!!

Months later the bondage routine has become routine, the kittens have been dealt with by catching them one at a time and clubbing them with a shovel, their tiny bodies disposed of one or two at a time. Order has been restored to a level Mom and Dad can cope with, even though they know secretly they’ve gone too far, which is why nobody can have friends anymore. Nobody but family is allowed into the house because all hell will break loose if outsiders see what is going on.

They don’t see themselves as bad people, just people forced to do things you and I won’t understand because we weren’t there facing the pressure they were facing.
That's one scary post, dude.

Scary mostly because it's probably about right in some cases, although I think in this case there will be a little more mix of mental illness and a hint of sadism.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 07:33 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
How do you know that? I haven't seen that reported.
I had a look back in my search history, and I think you're right. I guess I either misread something or my brain invented a detail. Scary how that can happen. My apologies.

However, I would still say that it's likely he was doing one class at a time. But as you said, I don't actually have any evidence for that. My mistake.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 07:42 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That's one scary post, dude.

Scary mostly because it's probably about right in some cases, although I think in this case there will be a little more mix of mental illness and a hint of sadism.
Thirteen kids is a lot. Way more than any two people can handle all by themselves. The couples who do it successfully do it in part by incorporating themselves into their community. They get help from family, Church, government, neighbors, school district and whomever.

These people isolated themselves. They didn't belong to a church, they held their extended family at arm's length, they hid from their neighbors and they minimized their contact with government.

I have no doubt mental illness played a significant role, but did it create this situation? How could one not develop mental illness living in that situation for year after year? It was awful for the kids, but it had to be awful for the parents too. I imagine this vicious feedback loop where stress creates abuse which necessitates secrecy which creates more stress. At some point there was a moment when things first got out of hand, and they made a decision to keep it a secret when they should have sought help instead. The right and moral choice is to seek help when you’re over your head, but maybe they saw it as weakness. They projected an image of a joyous family that was all smiles, Disneyland, Dr Seuss and matching clothes. That’s what they wanted to be, not the chained to the bed hiding from the neighbors kind of family.

If it seems like I’m arguing with you, I’m not. I’m just putting my own thoughts down as my own way of processing.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 07:43 PM   #280
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Children rescued in California captivity case to be split up in foster care

Originally Posted by CBS News
The six minors who were found shackled in a California home will be split up between two foster homes, a source close to the investigation tells CBS News. Riverside County will be granted conservatorship over the seven adult siblings and they will be transferred to an assisted living facility for adults, the source said.

A source close to the investigation told CBS News' David Begnaud last week that the siblings specifically asked social workers if they could stay together after being freed...
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/califor...in-foster-care


Parents who allegedly held kids captive were planning to move 'within days'

Originally Posted by ABC News
The California parents who allegedly tortured and held their 13 children captive were preparing to move "within days" of when the couple’s 17-year-old daughter escaped and alerted authorities, multiple sources told ABC News exclusively.

David Turpin, 57, was getting a job transfer from California to Oklahoma with the defense contractor Northrop Grumann, the sources said, and as a result, the family was preparing to move "within days" of Jan. 14, when the 17-year-old clambered out of a window and used a deactivated cellphone to dial 911 for help, according to police. Authorities quickly came to the house, ultimately arresting the parents and taking all 13 siblings into state custody.

Sources told ABC News, "There were boxes in the house consistent with moving –- concentrated in hallways, entryway and bedrooms."

It's not clear whether the move had any role in the timing of the 17-year-old daughter's escape.

The family had moved several times during the years, twice in Texas and once in California...
http://abcnews.go.com/US/parents-all...ry?id=52548749
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