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Old 1st October 2021, 08:17 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
And Green goes on to remind us
Presumably the warning was about not getting caught on camera....
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Old 1st October 2021, 12:29 PM   #242
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Met are keen to refer to him as an 'ex' police officer.
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Old 1st October 2021, 01:10 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Met are keen to refer to him as an 'ex' police officer.
Indeed they are.

Meanwhile we shouldn't forget this utterly shameful betrayal of these sisters and their family which happened about the same time as the Sarah Everard case.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...n-53198702.amp

There were failures all along the line and betrayals. It's like McPherson hadn't happened.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 02:56 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Met are keen to refer to him as an 'ex' police officer.
Ignoring the inconvenient fact that they didn't do anything about making him "ex" until after he pleaded guilty...
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Old 2nd October 2021, 02:59 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Exactly

And Dick has been in charge for long enough that she had time to address the known problems with vetting
Quite.

As well as being in charge of a whole load of other things which went wrong, to the point that one wonders if she actually has time to "learn the lessons" and then apply those in practice. Or mebbe there's still a lot of homework out standing on those lessons...

Mind, if Priti Patel is doing the marking...
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Old 2nd October 2021, 03:14 AM   #246
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And another point: does anyone (aside from Nessie) actually know what a police warrant card looks like?

We were talking about it the other night and neither of us has ever seen one and wouldn't know a fake if we saw one. How many folk know the name of their local police force? Fragments of Saxon kingdoms? Postal counties which don't exist anymore?

(I used this argument with my managers at work who insisted we wore our ID badges at all times: who knows what an NHS ID badge really is? And if you have a stupid job title - I was officially "senior practitioner" - who the flying **** knows if that is real? Nad that's before you get on to the ever changing names of NHS trusts.)
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Old 2nd October 2021, 04:33 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Ignoring the inconvenient fact that they didn't do anything about making him "ex" until after he pleaded guilty...
The regulations mean they had to wait. Police officers, as sworn servants of the crown, have different employment conditions to virtually everyone else in the UK.

Those conditions need to be overhauled and it made easier to dismiss police officers and to make dismissal a more common form of punishment. Certainly all police officers found guilty of sexual misconduct should be dismissed as standard.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 05:30 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The regulations mean they had to wait. Police officers, as sworn servants of the crown, have different employment conditions to virtually everyone else in the UK.

Those conditions need to be overhauled and it made easier to dismiss police officers and to make dismissal a more common form of punishment. Certainly all police officers found guilty of sexual misconduct should be dismissed as standard.
But I think the point is that they were trying to create the impression Couzens was an ex officer at the time of the offence.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 05:36 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The regulations mean they had to wait. Police officers, as sworn servants of the crown, have different employment conditions to virtually everyone else in the UK.
....
That seems odd on its face. As a "sworn servant of the crown," shouldn't the crown (or its representatives) be able to dismiss someone whenever she/he is displeased? It wasn't all that long ago that "the crown" could chop your head off at will. Now they can't even fire a wayward "servant?"
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Old 2nd October 2021, 06:46 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That seems odd on its face. As a "sworn servant of the crown," shouldn't the crown (or its representatives) be able to dismiss someone whenever she/he is displeased? It wasn't all that long ago that "the crown" could chop your head off at will. Now they can't even fire a wayward "servant?"
Not for about 800 years or so.....
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Old 2nd October 2021, 06:59 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That seems odd on its face. As a "sworn servant of the crown," shouldn't the crown (or its representatives) be able to dismiss someone whenever she/he is displeased? It wasn't all that long ago that "the crown" could chop your head off at will. Now they can't even fire a wayward "servant?"
Not that long ago? I'm pretty sure Oliver Cromwell put a stop to it, so we're talking at least 350 years, which, being somewhat longer ago than the founding of your country, most Americans regard as a while.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 07:04 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not for about 800 years or so.....
I guess it depends on the definition of 'at will', but 800 years is probably too long ago (ask Ann Boleyn, or Sir Walter Raleigh).
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Old 2nd October 2021, 07:14 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I guess it depends on the definition of 'at will', but 800 years is probably too long ago (ask Ann Boleyn, or Sir Walter Raleigh).
Yes and no - the monarchs had to invent sorry carefully consider the evidence
and charges. The first Magna Carta was the point at which the idea that the monarchs will was the law was abolished. (Well obviously only in regards to those people that counted i.e. the rich, land owning, could raise a fighting force men.)
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Old 2nd October 2021, 07:52 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I guess it depends on the definition of 'at will', but 800 years is probably too long ago (ask Ann Boleyn, or Sir Walter Raleigh).
They still had to be tried and convicted of a capital offence. The monarch could not just do a Queen of Hearts.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 08:06 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
And another point: does anyone (aside from Nessie) actually know what a police warrant card looks like?

We were talking about it the other night and neither of us has ever seen one and wouldn't know a fake if we saw one. How many folk know the name of their local police force? Fragments of Saxon kingdoms? Postal counties which don't exist anymore?

(I used this argument with my managers at work who insisted we wore our ID badges at all times: who knows what an NHS ID badge really is? And if you have a stupid job title - I was officially "senior practitioner" - who the flying **** knows if that is real? Nad that's before you get on to the ever changing names of NHS trusts.)
A friend has a warrant card, as port medical officer of health. that needs to be signed by a Secretary of State. It is a piece of card looking like a business card saying essentially 'warrant of port medical officer of health Dr X signed y HM secretary of State (signed in blue biro). The warrant gives authority to board and inspect ships and refuse entry (pratique) amongst other things (including quarantining a ship).
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Old 2nd October 2021, 08:54 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
A friend has a warrant card, as port medical officer of health. that needs to be signed by a Secretary of State. It is a piece of card looking like a business card saying essentially 'warrant of port medical officer of health Dr X signed y HM secretary of State (signed in blue biro). The warrant gives authority to board and inspect ships and refuse entry (pratique) amongst other things (including quarantining a ship).
But how would any of the rest of us know if that was real or something someone made up? I suppose ships'masters would, but anyone else?

Do they change them when the Secretary of State changes? Mind, I do wonder how many people would know who the relevant SoS is/was anyway.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 10:46 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
But I think the point is that they were trying to create the impression Couzens was an ex officer at the time of the offence.
There have been lots of police and police commentators who have been trying to claim this is an aberration, a rogue officer and even victim blaming, to deflect from the horrendous problem of violence and abuse against women by police officers.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 02:14 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Indeed they are.

Meanwhile we shouldn't forget this utterly shameful betrayal of these sisters and their family which happened about the same time as the Sarah Everard case.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...n-53198702.amp

There were failures all along the line and betrayals. It's like McPherson hadn't happened.
There were a couple that took WhatsApp pictures at the Everard murder scene, so nothing has been learned.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 03:44 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
But how would any of the rest of us know if that was real or something someone made up? I suppose ships'masters would, but anyone else?

Do they change them when the Secretary of State changes? Mind, I do wonder how many people would know who the relevant SoS is/was anyway.
There is nothing about it to prevent fraud. I guess the ship's master (or more likely their agent) would just phone up the listed number and check.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 05:45 AM   #260
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You can now verify that a police officer in Scotland, is who he/she says she is;

https://www.scotland.police.uk/what-...of-the-public/

"The new process, introduced on Saturday, 2 October, will allow for the officer's personal radio to be put on loudspeaker and for an officer or member of police staff in a Police Scotland Control Room to confirm that the officer is who they say they are, that they are on duty and the reason the officer is speaking to the member of the public.
The Control Room will then create an incident number which can be displayed on the officer’s mobile phone or radio to confirm the broadcast message details.
In the even rarer situation where a lone off-duty officer has to become involved in an incident, the officer will call 999 and allow the member of the public to speak to the control room on the phone. Uniformed colleagues will also be dispatched as quickly as possible."

The irony is that in Scotland, most cops patrol in pairs due to the need for corroboration. Most lone polices work in rural areas, where most people know who they are anyway. At least it is a sensible plan, unlike the moronic advice from the Met about running away, shouting and looking for bus!
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Old 3rd October 2021, 06:16 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You can now verify that a police officer in Scotland, is who he/she says she is;

https://www.scotland.police.uk/what-...of-the-public/

"The new process, introduced on Saturday, 2 October, will allow for the officer's personal radio to be put on loudspeaker and for an officer or member of police staff in a Police Scotland Control Room to confirm that the officer is who they say they are, that they are on duty and the reason the officer is speaking to the member of the public.
The Control Room will then create an incident number which can be displayed on the officer’s mobile phone or radio to confirm the broadcast message details.
In the even rarer situation where a lone off-duty officer has to become involved in an incident, the officer will call 999 and allow the member of the public to speak to the control room on the phone. Uniformed colleagues will also be dispatched as quickly as possible."

The irony is that in Scotland, most cops patrol in pairs due to the need for corroboration. Most lone polices work in rural areas, where most people know who they are anyway. At least it is a sensible plan, unlike the moronic advice from the Met about running away, shouting and looking for bus!
Doesn't really help if the kidnapper says he's a police officer and he is.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 06:24 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Doesn't really help if the kidnapper says he's a police officer and he is.
It would mean the kidnapper is on duty and has told the control room he is withe a lone female. That would deter even Couzens from kidnap whilst in duty. It is also a sensible and practical thing that would have raised a warning signal to Everard her arrest was not legitimate.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 06:24 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Doesn't really help if the kidnapper says he's a police officer and he is.
Of course it does. Is he likely to kidnap, rape and murder someone if he knows the control room is aware he is talking to that person?
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Old 3rd October 2021, 06:34 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It would mean the kidnapper is on duty and has told the control room he is withe a lone female. That would deter even Couzens from kidnap whilst in duty. It is also a sensible and practical thing that would have raised a warning signal to Everard her arrest was not legitimate.
I doubt they'll be allowed to discriminate on the basis of the sex/gender of the detainee. I anticipate that cunning neds will use it as an opportunity for distraction and attempt to rapidly abscond.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 06:52 AM   #265
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Today’s Sunday Mirror front page: Probe into Met Police reveals 26 colleagues of murderer Wayne Couzens have committed sex crimes since 2016.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 07:16 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Today’s Sunday Mirror front page: Probe into Met Police reveals 26 colleagues of murderer Wayne Couzens have committed sex crimes since 2016.

Link here:
Quote:
A damning probe into the Met Police today reveals 26 colleagues of murderer Wayne Couzens have committed sex crimes since 2016.

Offences included rape and possessing indecent images of children. Two officers were jailed in April, a month after Couzens raped and killed Sarah Everard.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...agues-25125068
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Old 3rd October 2021, 07:54 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Of course it does. Is he likely to kidnap, rape and murder someone if he knows the control room is aware he is talking to that person?
Really? And if Sarah Everard had demanded to speak to his station, do you believe he would then have left her alone?
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Old 3rd October 2021, 07:56 AM   #268
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If it was standard practice to dismiss/require to resign, every police officer found guilty of sexual misconduct & for all police officers to provide radio verification to lone females, Wayne Couzens could not have acted as he did. He may well have still raped and killed, but not as a police officer.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 08:02 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Really? And if Sarah Everard had demanded to speak to his station, do you believe he would then have left her alone?
I'm not claiming it's the right answer, just pointing out that in some situations it could have helped. The problem is that it's putting the onus on the person being approached by someone claiming to be a policeman to know what to do, and how to verify the claim.

And, of course, as you suggest, it depends on the malefactor following the procedure and not bluffing it out or simply using force (and in either case, they could do the same whether they were an actual policeman or not).
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Old 3rd October 2021, 09:25 AM   #270
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Yup

I misread it and got confused with the warrant question.

It's a start
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Old 3rd October 2021, 11:09 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
I doubt they'll be allowed to discriminate on the basis of the sex/gender of the detainee. I anticipate that cunning neds will use it as an opportunity for distraction and attempt to rapidly abscond.
I don't think it would be a problem for a plainclothes cop to be required to advise his bosses that he has detained any suspect. His bosses should know what he's up to when he's on the street, and men can be victimized too. And if the suspect is going to fight, he'd start long before the cop pulls out his radio.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 01:59 PM   #272
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A Metropolitan Police officer who served in the same unit as Sarah Everard’s killer Wayne Couzens has been charged with rape.

David Carrick, 46, was arrested on Saturday in Hertfordshire and suspended from the force.
https://independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr...-b1931551.html
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Old 3rd October 2021, 03:52 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
A Metropolitan Police officer who served in the same unit as Sarah Everard’s killer Wayne Couzens has been charged with rape.

David Carrick, 46, was arrested on Saturday in Hertfordshire and suspended from the force.
https://independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr...-b1931551.html
For an alleged offence committed just over a year ago -

"PC David Carrick to appear in court on Monday over incident in Hertfordshire in September 2020"
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Old 5th October 2021, 03:15 AM   #274
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The chief constable of West Midlands Police says describing Wayne Couzens, the Metropolitan Police officer who kidnapped, raped and murdered 33-year-old Sarah Everard in London, as a "bad apple" is to view the crime through "the wrong lens".

It follows questions as to whether police forces do enough to vet officers or whether, as Conservative MP George Eustice said on Question Time, Couzens was simply "one bad apple".

Addressing his male colleagues, Chief Constable Dave Thompson wrote "an act like this is seen at the end of a continuance of a curve of misogynistic behaviour that women experience".

"There is a deep concern, highlighted through media coverage, that colleagues did not challenge and concerns may not have been acted upon," he wrote. "This case indicates that misogynistic attitudes to women are tolerated in policing."

"Some individuals are attracted to policing because it gives them power, access to vulnerable people, an ability to coerce others to get their own way," Mr Thompson said. "There is no place for them and we all have an obligation to identify, challenge and report concerns where we see them."

He called on his officers to be more alert to "more mainstream behaviour" that "shows the wrong attitudes" and set out four key actions "to make policing an exemplar for the right attitudes and approaches to women".

"Ultimately this is all about how men behave to women," he wrote. "So let’s be the change we need to see in society."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/england?n...ost_type=share

(Rolling feed so don't know how long it will stay up)
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Old 5th October 2021, 03:17 AM   #275
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ON BBC Radio 4 'Today' this morning Boris seemed to blame the defence for delays in the criminal justice system.
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Old 5th October 2021, 03:26 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
ON BBC Radio 4 'Today' this morning Boris seemed to blame the defence for delays in the criminal justice system.
Well, if they will insist on their clients pleading "not guilty"......
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Old 5th October 2021, 03:28 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
ON BBC Radio 4 'Today' this morning Boris seemed to blame the defence for delays in the criminal justice system.
As usual, nothing is anything to do with decisions made by his party and governments he's been part of nor indecision by him or his government. He's still back at Eton or prep school arguing with prefects, isn't he?
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Old 5th October 2021, 03:51 AM   #278
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Between 2010 and 2020 the government closed 164 of 320 magistrate's courts - 51%.
Via deputy news editor of Law Society Gazette on twitter
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Old 5th October 2021, 05:28 AM   #279
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You do not get a "bad apple" like Wayne Couzens in a police force that is not riddled with problems. A police force that has zero tolerance of sexual misconduct, where whistleblowers are protected and not bullied and which effectively investigates criminal complaints against police officers, will not have "bad apples".
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Old 5th October 2021, 05:49 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You do not get a "bad apple" like Wayne Couzens in a police force that is not riddled with problems. A police force that has zero tolerance of sexual misconduct, where whistleblowers are protected and not bullied and which effectively investigates criminal complaints against police officers, will not have "bad apples".
Coincidently made a comment about "one bad apple" in another thread not long ago, it is appropriate here:

It's strange how that phrase has subtly changed its usage, it is now used to say, "this is a lone individual everyone else is OK", whereas it used to be used to recognise that the one bad apple means everyone is also spoiled.

And that is what happens in any organisation, company and so on, it is very rare an individual works in isolation. We know his colleagues were aware he shouldn't be in the police force yet did nothing.
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