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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:15 AM   #361
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We're drifting away from actual electric cars into just general (and just MASSIVELY wrong on an objective level) "Old cars were just better made and lasted longer" nonsense.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 3rd March 2021 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:16 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
But I'm not so sold on some of the other features. I've been utterly stuck on back roads when my traction control would not allow my tires to spin a little. I'd just as soon be rid of ABS too, and go back to knowing how to apply the brakes, which I've done with great success since 1965. I'd rather have good side view mirrors and a proper rear window than a bunch of buzzers and cameras and more electronics to go wrong.
Both my cars with traction control have a button to turn it off.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:19 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Well, obviously the latter would be silly. The problem is that charging takes, even at best, a hundred times longer than just filling up a gas tak. But I basically agree: Battery swap instead of charging has many problems. Apart from the already mentioned, it requires a standardization of batteries that will hamper development of better batteries.

So the charging time will instead require people to change habits ( nearly as hard ). You will need to plan your trip, as if flying: How much fuel (=charge) do I need for this trip, when and where can I recharge, what can I do while the car charges?

Hans
I'm not sure the changing habits thing is that significant. At least it hasn't been for me. Driving my ICE cars on long trips I always needed to stop every 2.5 or 3 hours or so for comfort breaks that involved toilet, coffee and leg-stretching, and my Tesla life hasn't changed that. The navigation system shows where Superchargers are and, more interestingly, which ones you can reach, while there are a million apps showing all compatible third-party charging stations.

For everyday driving there are charge points in shopping centre car parks and that way it's been easy enough to stick on another 100km or so of range while shopping or going to the doctor or whatever.

Of course, everything depends on personal circumstances and requirements and stuff and I'd never claim that the current state of EVs provides an ideal solution for everybody, but this month marks two years I've had my TM3 and I'm never going back to ICE.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:24 AM   #364
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Battery swaps also just seems (to me) to open up a nightmare of connections being worn out over time.

Imagine recharging anything via constantly replacing the battery. Does anything feel like it would last longer that way?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:38 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Battery swaps also just seems (to me) to open up a nightmare of connections being worn out over time.

Imagine recharging anything via constantly replacing the battery. Does anything feel like it would last longer that way?
That's how I charge nearly every battery operated device I have. I have two batteries for every device that lets me remove the battery. Is there something about the connections in a car that would make them exceptionally difficult to repair?

I may be repeating someone else, but EVs could be chargable as they are now and also support battery swap right? Then the swaps don't happen so frequently. You charge for your short daily commute at home, then use the swap method on less frequent road trips. Then not so much wear on the connections.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:22 AM   #366
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Funny story: Last snow storm, a gentleman tried to turn around in my drive way and got his all-wheel-drive Mazda stuck in the ditch. He had recently arrived to Wisconsin from California by way of India (we have a large company on town that hires IT people from all over, including his brother.) He was so flustered, he asked me to try and drive the car out. His mother was in the car, too, and she was not dressed for winter weather. Luckily, after some digging and turning the traction control off, I was able to get it out. I think his mother thought my driving was a bit crazy, but she was grateful to be unstuck. I had to chuckle imagining her chewing out her son for getting stuck!
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:26 AM   #367
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One of the (minor and niche I'll admit but still a factor) issues with EVs is the is no equivalent to "1 gallon gas can" you can walk carry to the nearest fueling station if you run out gas on the side of the road.

But there has been talk of a feature where if you have an EV you can quickcharge off of another EV.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:29 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
One of the (minor and niche I'll admit but still a factor) issues with EVs is the is no equivalent to "1 gallon gas can" you can walk carry to the nearest fueling station if you run out gas on the side of the road.
Yeah, the equivalent would be 60 or more pounds of a battery wouldn't it?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:31 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Yeah, the equivalent would be 60 or more pounds of a battery wouldn't it?
Pretty much. Hell a very small generator might actually be more practical, but I haven't crunched the numbers on that.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:33 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We're drifting away from actual electric cars into just general (and just MASSIVELY wrong on an objective level) "Old cars were just better made and lasted longer" nonsense.
I don't think anyone said "better made", it's more that some of us just appreciate their relative simplicity. As was pointed out, electric cars are simpler than IC cars, which I like.

Lasting longer? I agree, that is nonsense; modern cars are way better. The bodies last longer, no such thing as valve jobs anymore, no more replacing points, etc.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:36 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
One of the (minor and niche I'll admit but still a factor) issues with EVs is the is no equivalent to "1 gallon gas can" you can walk carry to the nearest fueling station if you run out gas on the side of the road.

But there has been talk of a feature where if you have an EV you can quickcharge off of another EV.
Teslas will start screaming at you if you’re driving and getting dangerously low on juice. Essentially “get to a charger now!” Will also strongly suggest driving at a slower speed.

The Tesla built in mapping is also pretty good at knowing how much power you’ll need to get to your destination or the next charger, but if your driving 75+ that could be inaccurate.

Could be a business idea. Get a van filled with battery packs and common charger cables end hire yourself out to stranded EVs.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:38 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Battery swaps also just seems (to me) to open up a nightmare of connections being worn out over time.

Imagine recharging anything via constantly replacing the battery. Does anything feel like it would last longer that way?
Cordless power tools have worked that way for quite some time.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:39 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
Teslas will start screaming at you if you’re driving and getting dangerously low on juice. Essentially “get to a charger now!” Will also strongly suggest driving at a slower speed.
Yeah but the EV equivalent to "I ran out of gas and I'm stuck on the side of the road" is still going to happen from time to time and with an EV you're getting towed to the nearest compatible charger, you can't have AAA or a buddy swing by with a Jerry Can.

Again I'm not saying this will be a common occurrence, I'm saying that this is the kind of uncommon but not like super-rare problems we will need some sort of plan/infastructure/process for dealing with as EVs become more and more common.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 11:06 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah but the EV equivalent to "I ran out of gas and I'm stuck on the side of the road" is still going to happen from time to time and with an EV you're getting towed to the nearest compatible charger, you can't have AAA or a buddy swing by with a Jerry Can.

Again I'm not saying this will be a common occurrence, I'm saying that this is the kind of uncommon but not like super-rare problems we will need some sort of plan/infastructure/process for dealing with as EVs become more and more common.
AAA will find a solution. Even if it is just a generator on the back of a tow truck. That is literally their business.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 11:12 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
AAA will find a solution. Even if it is just a generator on the back of a tow truck. That is literally their business.
perhaps something equivalent to those portable "battery boosters" currently carried by some to jump start dead batteries with.

How large/heavy would something need to be that could provide 10 miles or so of range to an EV.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 11:23 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
perhaps something equivalent to those portable "battery boosters" currently carried by some to jump start dead batteries with.

How large/heavy would something need to be that could provide 10 miles or so of range to an EV.
You're talking a portable battery? That's what I was responding based on when I said the equivalent of a can of gas in the form of a battery would be about 60 pounds.

If I have the right numbers it works out to 3 pounds of battery per mile of range. Telsa battery pack is 1200 pounds, range is 400 miles. 3 pounds of fully charged battery per mile.

Most straightforward idea of AAA is to mount a 480V generator on their tow trucks.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 11:26 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Cordless power tools have worked that way for quite some time.
It's also how most logistics departments with electric forklifts work. Drive the lift to the battery room and swap the battery, keep driving the lift. It's much more time efficient.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 11:28 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
perhaps something equivalent to those portable "battery boosters" currently carried by some to jump start dead batteries with.

How large/heavy would something need to be that could provide 10 miles or so of range to an EV.
//Note// This information and specs come the manufacture who is currently seeking funding and have not, to my knowledge, been independently verified, so grain of salt.

The SparkCharge Roadie emergency battery claims to add 10-15 miles, in a package that is 19.8 lbs (9 kgs) and 9.4x12.6x23.6 inches (240x320x600mm)

//Note the picture below shows 4 of the devices, not one. They are stackable/linkable to increase available range/power, again according to the manufacturer.//

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Old 3rd March 2021, 11:32 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Both my cars with traction control have a button to turn it off.
Yes, but on my Hyundai at least if you forget to turn it off, it won't go off on the fly, so if you start spinning a wheel, it's too late.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 11:34 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Cordless power tools have worked that way for quite some time.
Yes, but they are small batteries and relatively unsophisticated systems, and we own our own batteries. My cordless tools will work on a half-depleted battery, or one that doesn't take a very good charge. That would be pretty annoying if you are getting a swap on the road.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 11:36 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Pretty much. Hell a very small generator might actually be more practical, but I haven't crunched the numbers on that.
It's called a "Range Extender." My i3 has one built in. I chose the model with the REX to avoid anxiety about the issues being discussed. But, after owning the car for almost two years, I have used it three times and those times were really just because I had it - not because I was going to be stuck somewhere without it.

If I were making the purchase decision now, I would buy the non-REX (BEV) model which is a little less expensive, has less to maintain/break, and gets a little more range.

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Old 3rd March 2021, 11:49 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I'm all for safety features. I've never driven without seatbelts except in old cars that had none. I don't mind airbags though I'd just as soon skip them and wear a good belt. I certainly appreciate crush zones and door rails, better bumpers, dual brake systems, and that sort of thing.

But I'm not so sold on some of the other features. I've been utterly stuck on back roads when my traction control would not allow my tires to spin a little. I'd just as soon be rid of ABS too, and go back to knowing how to apply the brakes, which I've done with great success since 1965. I'd rather have good side view mirrors and a proper rear window than a bunch of buzzers and cameras and more electronics to go wrong.

I do use cruise control occasionally on long trips, just to ease the leg cramps, and do nowadays (reluctantly) have an automatic transmission, though that is only because since my 2012 cycling accident I can no longer drive very long distances myself, so need a car my wife is comfortable driving too. But for most purposes I'd just as soon ditch the cruise and go back to a stick shift.

Of course I know I'm an outlying old curmudgeon, but there it is. I still wish (vainly) that someone someday would design an electric economy hot rod with all that luxo crap left off. Bring back my 1985 Honda hatchback with an electric power train. No air, no traction control or abs, manual windows, big rear window you could see out of. Handled well, went fast enough, great gas mileage. If the camshaft had not snapped in half at 185 thousand miles I'd probably have it still (rust patches and all).
Possibly not all of them, but many of the features do have off switches--or possibly different solutions to the same problems. I can support having manual override. Like how some automatics let you choose your own gear anyway.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 12:17 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Both my cars with traction control have a button to turn it off.
Traction control was something I was concerned with when I wanted to get a Prius V. I had read of a lot of people having issues with their Priuseseseses in icy conditions where they'd have issues with tracking control making it hard to get going at times. There was some weird way to turn it off if you wanted to.

Thankfully, mine ended up just having a button. I've only needed to use that button once when going up a snowy hill.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:45 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
Robert Llewellyn on his Fully Charged Youtube channel (the thing that seeded my interest in EV's) is sure that we're already there. Batteries are close to $100 a Kwh, and you can buy an EV for under £10k in China, now. He is sure that it is legacy manufacturers inflating the cost of their EV's to protect sales of their ICE cars, because they can't transition the plants quickly enough.
Not cheap enough. That's $7,000 for a 70Kwh. And that doesn't include installation cost. I don't have money to burn. $50 seems about where we need to be.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 11:13 PM   #385
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There are plenty of people that need a car, but don't require 70Kwh of range
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Old 4th March 2021, 05:41 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
There are plenty of people that need a car, but don't require 70Kwh of range
Or perhaps "who *rarely* require more than X miles range". It's one of those observations that seems simple and obvious when we're thinking about other people, but maybe less so for ourselves because we fret about the times when our own car won't do the job rather than the bulk of short trips where a small battery would be fine.
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Old 4th March 2021, 06:12 AM   #387
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Well yeah because a car is a major investment, probably the second biggest one in most people's lives and one that is only going to get you where you need to go "most" of the time isn't worth it.

It's like saying a house without a roof is a viable option for some people because it... well it doesn't rain the bulk of the days I'm in my house.

"I want to go further then the the fuel-carry-range of my car therefore will need a way to refuel the vehicle away from my home" is not a niche market.
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Old 4th March 2021, 06:36 AM   #388
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No, it's not. However, as someone who had that range anxiety, I can say that it soon passes once you become familiar with the car, and my Leaf has issues accepting more than one rapid charge per day
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Old 4th March 2021, 06:48 AM   #389
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The range anxiety thing was one of the reasons I went for the TM3 LR (maximum theoretical range around 540km, practical usage into the 400s because I very very rarely charge above 80%), but in practice it doesn't affect me at all. I'm lucky that I can slow charge at 18km/h in my garage during commuting times, just to keep topped up, but for the small number of really long journeys I do range doesn't come into consideration apart from looking for a supercharger 300km ahead so I can top up the car while emptying myself.
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Old 4th March 2021, 07:05 AM   #390
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I think people underestimate how much "infrastructure saturation" gasoline has and how little electric car charging has.

There are 16 gas stations within a one mile drive of my house. 3 within what I would call "walking distance." All but one of them (according to the GasBuddy app) have diesel. Most have E85. 1 has liquid propane and CNG.

The closest publicly accessible electric car charging station is over 5 miles from my house. (An EVgo charging station, 50kw, compatible with CHAdeMO and CCS systems).

The nearest Tesla Supercharger is 27 miles away.

Currently for the purposes of charging a vehicle electricity is least accessible option for me unless I'm at my house.
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Old 4th March 2021, 07:26 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think people underestimate how much "infrastructure saturation" gasoline has and how little electric car charging has.

There are 16 gas stations within a one mile drive of my house. 3 within what I would call "walking distance." All but one of them (according to the GasBuddy app) have diesel. Most have E85. 1 has liquid propane and CNG.

The closest publicly accessible electric car charging station is over 5 miles from my house. (An EVgo charging station, 50kw, compatible with CHAdeMO and CCS systems).

The nearest Tesla Supercharger is 27 miles away.

Currently for the purposes of charging a vehicle electricity is least accessible option for me unless I'm at my house.
That is, again, judging future possibilities from past conditions. You have this gas pump to charger ratio because just a few years ago, EV's were rare and exotic. A charger network is far simpler and cheaper to build, maintain, and supply than fuel stations. No underground tanks, no tank trucks, no fire hazard, no pollution hazards.

Hans
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Old 4th March 2021, 07:45 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
That is, again, judging future possibilities from past conditions. You have this gas pump to charger ratio because just a few years ago, EV's were rare and exotic. A charger network is far simpler and cheaper to build, maintain, and supply than fuel stations. No underground tanks, no tank trucks, no fire hazard, no pollution hazards.

Hans
If anything, the existing network of gas stations means it should be pretty easy to just retrofit them to electric service. Networks of small parcels of land already exist to service cars, it's just a matter of swapping gas pumps for electrical charging stations. This can be done gradually as EV become increasingly common and ICE cars decreasingly common.

I imagine convenience store sales might even improve. If it's going to take a few minutes to charge up, why not enjoy a coke and some peanuts while you wait?
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Old 4th March 2021, 07:48 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If anything, the existing network of gas stations means it should be pretty easy to just retrofit them to electric service. Networks of small parcels of land already exist to service cars, it's just a matter of swapping gas pumps for electrical charging stations. This can be done gradually if EV become increasingly common and ICE cars decreasingly common.

I imagine convenience store sales might even improve. If it's going to take a few minutes to charge up, why not enjoy a coke and some peanuts while you wait?
True the gas station, which I'm recalling correctly make almost none of their profit off of the actual gas, probably won't care.

Until we can get charging times (and full charging not hummingbirding "I'll charge just enough to make it to my next location" charging) down to about 15 or fewer minutes in a universally accepted standard though it still won't happen.
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Old 4th March 2021, 08:13 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The closest publicly accessible electric car charging station is over 5 miles from my house. (An EVgo charging station, 50kw, compatible with CHAdeMO and CCS systems).
You really are comparing apples and something much more different than oranges. As an EV owner, you don't need charging stations near your house. It is better when they are farther away.

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Old 4th March 2021, 08:16 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If anything, the existing network of gas stations means it should be pretty easy to just retrofit them to electric service. Networks of small parcels of land already exist to service cars, it's just a matter of swapping gas pumps for electrical charging stations. This can be done gradually as EV become increasingly common and ICE cars decreasingly common.

I imagine convenience store sales might even improve. If it's going to take a few minutes to charge up, why not enjoy a coke and some peanuts while you wait?
I travel a fair bit and I have spent maybe $100 total in convenience stores over the last 2 years. If I had to sit for 15-20 minutes and they had some tables set up to make that a reasonable proposition, I could spend that much per trip. Electric charging could be huge for convenience stores. Especially the nicer ones.
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Old 4th March 2021, 08:36 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by jadebox View Post
You really are comparing apples and something much more different than oranges. As an EV owner, you don't need charging stations near your house. It is better when they are farther away.
I imagine the point was that they are very common, and similarly common farther away, rather than to boast that they are all clustered around ST's house.

Go back 110 years or so and you'd have to plan your route to know where there were hardware stores or chemist's shops where you could buy tin cans of petroleum spirit. Though of course you could load up with extra tins before you set off to extend your range.
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Old 4th March 2021, 08:39 AM   #397
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I think it's important to reiterate as well that we're still in the early stages of the roll-out of high-power EV charging stations. The first drive-in service station in the US opened in 1913 and by 1935 there were more than 200,000 of them. Given, as Hans mentions above, the lesser technical challenges in installing electric chargers than in constructing gas stations, I would imagine that in another 20 years the landscape will be significantly different and that range anxiety and charger-hopping will be forgotten.


ETA: I see someone had similar thought processes to me.
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Old 4th March 2021, 08:43 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Go back 110 years or so and you'd have to plan your route to know where there were hardware stores or chemist's shops where you could buy tin cans of petroleum spirit. Though of course you could load up with extra tins before you set off to extend your range.
And that's my point.

I want to drive cross country. I don't have to download an app or sit down and draft what basically amounts to a flight plan where I map out the distance between refueling stops. I just... go knowing that I'm always, outside of rare one offs, going to be near enough a gas station that I can pretty much fill up / top off my tank anytime I want. I don't have to plan stops, hotels, restaurants, sight seeing around what's closest to an gas station like I would if I was planning around electric car charging.

It's not "range anxiety" per se, it's it not being a factor at all. I know I'm always close enough to a gas station so that unless I intentionally put effort into trying to wait to the last possible moment I can just notice I need gas whenever and fill up.
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Old 4th March 2021, 08:56 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I assume you have a ten inch tungsten spike mounted to your steering wheel to keep you alert while driving. That little pressure in the middle of your chest as you brake a little too hard is a great reminder of how important safe driving is.


Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's why it's vitally important that you never tell your children to be quiet so you can concentrate on driving. Real drivers only drive manual cars with no traction control, no ABS, no seatbelts, no airbags, and with their trunks filled with nitroglycerin so they are always completely on while driving.
Sarcasm is the resort of someone who can't actually think of a sensible argument.
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Old 4th March 2021, 08:58 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Sarcasm is the resort of someone who can't actually think of a sensible argument.
"Safety features don't make cars less safe, that's stupid."

There, no sarcasm in that sentence.
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