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Old 25th February 2021, 07:36 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
My hope is that even without regulation some savvy manufacturers might realize that "you can repair it anywhere" is a sales feature, but these days people are pretty willing to accept the complication and privatization of everything.
I wonder about that. Company A says "you can repair it anywhere" while Company B says "you don't have to repair it". Guess who wins the sale, even if Company B's sales claim is a bit dicey but aren't they all already.

Also, I think the backyard tinkerer is increasingly a rare breed. For any modern car, you need all kinds of specialty testing equipment and tools to do anything more than replacing the wiper blades. In addition, such equipment is not like a wrench which is pretty obvious how to use but rather take training to use properly.

I recognize that your situation, bruto, does not meet the usual car buyer profile but it's also true that not many car buyers live in Smalltown, VT so your not the target buyer anyway.
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Old 25th February 2021, 07:38 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
FYI: Tesla has changed a few things. Tesla offered free supercharging to the original owner only. Every other feature is now transferable without charge. At least that is my understanding.
Depends on the car. You can still find older used teslas that come with free supercharging, though that is increasingly rare.

And there have been people who have found out That Tesla removed the ability for their car to use the Supercharger network at all because Tesla didn't do the repair.
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Old 26th February 2021, 12:11 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Also, I think the backyard tinkerer is increasingly a rare breed. For any modern car, you need all kinds of specialty testing equipment and tools to do anything more than replacing the wiper blades. In addition, such equipment is not like a wrench which is pretty obvious how to use but rather take training to use properly.

But detailed information is so easy to get these days. Even for unpopular vehicles, you can usually find multiple YouTube videos of people doing the exact fix you need. Also, searching for your vehicle and the problem will turn up common issues (things that should be recalls but aren't). Even if you need to rent or buy tools, you're still generally paying yourself hundreds of dollars per hour tax free when you do your own repairs. And this is true for all kinds of repairs. Apart from a couple of locksmith jobs and a garage door install, I haven't hired anyone to do any auto or home repair in over two decades. Before that I sometimes had to, because the information needed just wasn't available.
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Old 26th February 2021, 08:14 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I wonder about that. Company A says "you can repair it anywhere" while Company B says "you don't have to repair it". Guess who wins the sale, even if Company B's sales claim is a bit dicey but aren't they all already.

Also, I think the backyard tinkerer is increasingly a rare breed. For any modern car, you need all kinds of specialty testing equipment and tools to do anything more than replacing the wiper blades. In addition, such equipment is not like a wrench which is pretty obvious how to use but rather take training to use properly.

I recognize that your situation, bruto, does not meet the usual car buyer profile but it's also true that not many car buyers live in Smalltown, VT so your not the target buyer anyway.
I probably should have said "service anywhere" rather than "repair."

The backyard tinkerer is a dying breed, I know. But the independent garage that can fix things is less so. There are plenty of these which do possess specialized equipment, and which can access a number of parts sources, and they would be handicapped if the manufacturers insisted that such work voids warranties, or cancels contracts for service, or simply bricks the machine. "Right to repair" issues now applicable mostly to farmers will, I think, end up important to motorists.

In the case of other vehicles, I think there has been some legal action to insure, for example, that routine service by third parties will not cancel a warranty or prevent a car from being used. I think there will have to be some further judgment on where that line is drawn in the age of constant connectivity, if the dealer is able essentially to spy on the owner and modify a car's operation on the fly.

Again of course I speak as a minority, but out here in the sparse parts of the country, many auto brands are not locally represented. We depend a lot on third parties, even if we don't do the work ourselves. Some brands are well represented, but others have no dealers within 50 miles or more. Some things like immobilizing locks are more or less under dealer control, but still, if you lose your keys, the relatively local locksmith, with expensive proprietary equipment and the like, can probably get you going without having your car towed away.

Of course I am a little biased, because not only am I an incorrigible bricoleur, but one of my sons is a mechanic at a third party establishment. Their business would be gone if they had to call customers and say "sorry, we fixed your car, but now it will won't start."

I suspect also that as such things become more widespread, there will be a fledgling industry of hackers sidestepping these issues, as is developing on the John Deere front, where you can, I gather, now buy East European programs that bypass the need for dealer input to unbrick a tractor.

In addition though the problem might be fairly rare, I also suspect that internet glitches and outages and dead zones will come to haunt some car manufacturers who depend on connectivity. If it happens often enough that features you've paid for are disabled when you drive past the ledges, or when some data gets corrupted or whatever, people are going to be unhappy.

Right now such events are likely very rare, and will probably always be statistically rare, but as more people use more electric cars for more things, they will become more anecdotally visible. Right now, few people buy electric cars for long trips, for example, but down the road, if you buy one and expect to take a three-charge trip, and find that what was expected to be a half hour charge takes three hours, or that some emergency repair leaves your car stranded, the resulting squawk will be a public relations problem even if the event is quite rare.
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Old 26th February 2021, 10:34 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Also, I think the backyard tinkerer is increasingly a rare breed. For any modern car, you need all kinds of specialty testing equipment and tools to do anything more than replacing the wiper blades. In addition, such equipment is not like a wrench which is pretty obvious how to use but rather take training to use properly.
One weird thing is that electrification has actually brought some life back to the backyard tinkerer community. Trying to keep an old bug or 68 mustang on the road has never been difficult from a wrenching point fo view, but if your flavor of choice is something less popular then the cost of parts and skills needed tend to rise. Rare parts and type specific tools become a real issue.

Electrification can level that a bit. Replacing an electric motor is far more plug and play than even a tried and true LS swap. There just aren't as many examples out there, yet.
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Old 26th February 2021, 10:37 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
One weird thing is that electrification has actually brought some life back to the backyard tinkerer community. Trying to keep an old bug or 68 mustang on the road has never been difficult from a wrenching point fo view, but if your flavor of choice is something less popular then the cost of parts and skills needed tend to rise. Rare parts and type specific tools become a real issue.

Electrification can level that a bit. Replacing an electric motor is far more plug and play than even a tried and true LS swap. There just aren't as many examples out there, yet.
It is happening. Some people are buying salvaged Teslas for the battery tech, and trying to retrofit them into other cars.
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Old 26th February 2021, 10:44 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
It is happening. Some people are buying salvaged Teslas for the battery tech, and trying to retrofit them into other cars.
Yep, we are heading into a new age of hot rodding where LSs and 2JZs are being replaced by massive or multiple DC motors. I'm really looking forward to watching this unfold.
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Old 26th February 2021, 12:36 PM   #248
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Indeed, the hot rod electric has a lot of appeal. I for example live in an area where air conditioning is rarely needed, have little use for many of the electrical luxuries some like. I'd happily give up power door locks and windows, map software, and stuff, and even some electrical efficiency, for a lighter and simpler vehicle. I could easily see the idea of getting a wrecked electric and transplanting its guts into some elderly vehicle.

Back in the day there were a fair number of people doing similar, low tech things with old VW's, with golf cart engines or hand-wound adventures.

Not likely at this point to be on my short list of projects, any more than the long-deferred and now unlikely project of making a car to run on wood gas. But it's fun to speculate. A little econobox with no extras and a Tesla motor would go like the hammers of hell.
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Old 26th February 2021, 01:41 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
Depends on the car. You can still find older used teslas that come with free supercharging, though that is increasingly rare.

And there have been people who have found out That Tesla removed the ability for their car to use the Supercharger network at all because Tesla didn't do the repair.
My understanding is regarding when a vehicle is sold to a second owner and not about unauthorized repairs.
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Old 26th February 2021, 01:48 PM   #250
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The difference is with a traditional car "Oh you'll void your warranty if you do your own repair" becomes a hollow threat after your warranty expires, which usually only a few years. That's generally when the hobbyist and enthusiast really take over and start major reworking of cars for projects.

But with "Cars as a service" model that changes and NEVER GOES AWAY.
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Old 26th February 2021, 01:55 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The difference is with a traditional car "Oh you'll void your warranty if you do your own repair" becomes a hollow threat after your warranty expires, which usually only a few years. That's generally when the hobbyist and enthusiast really take over and start major reworking of cars for projects.

But with "Cars as a service" model that changes and NEVER GOES AWAY.
Yeah, that's a big reason why I don't think cars-as-a-service will ever be a majority of the market. Sort of like leasing. It works for some, but not most people.

but what happens to those cars after they are retired from the cars-as-a-service fleet? Spec racing, that's what happens!

(Sorry, I'm always optimistic about car folks finding joy in any transportation scenario.)
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Old 26th February 2021, 02:32 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Yeah, that's a big reason why I don't think cars-as-a-service will ever be a majority of the market. Sort of like leasing. It works for some, but not most people.

but what happens to those cars after they are retired from the cars-as-a-service fleet? Spec racing, that's what happens!

(Sorry, I'm always optimistic about car folks finding joy in any transportation scenario.)
I have serious concerns with this business model. And to me, a vehicle, any vehicle is about transportation and utility above all. I despised Microsoft when they stopped selling software and started selling subscriptions. Don't own me. Don't make me a permanent revenue stream. If I buy photoshop, I should be able to use it until I stop. Not some arbitrary date that the companies decide.

The same is true with a vehicle.
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Old 26th February 2021, 02:37 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
My understanding is regarding when a vehicle is sold to a second owner and not about unauthorized repairs.
I have also heard accounts of Tesla being very harsh with people who restore salvaged vehicles, not only disarming various features but not allowing them to be repurchased at any price.

One of the problems I recall with the used policy is that I think it changed on the fly, so people who bought cars when supercharging was passed on to used buyers found that at some point it no longer was. I don't know whether that affected anyone after buying a used one, but a part of a new car's perceived value is what value it holds used.
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Old 26th February 2021, 02:46 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I have serious concerns with this business model. And to me, a vehicle, any vehicle is about transportation and utility above all. I despised Microsoft when they stopped selling software and started selling subscriptions. Don't own me. Don't make me a permanent revenue stream. If I buy photoshop, I should be able to use it until I stop. Not some arbitrary date that the companies decide.

The same is true with a vehicle.
I don't mind the model for some things, like MS Office. I don't want to have to upgrade every few years and the subscription is relatively cheap compared to the old over the counter cost. I have that software for work and I can expense the cost so having it spread out is probably easier.

If my car needs were more normal I would consider something like volvo's subscription service that allows you to trade in the car on a regular basis. Seems like it could really work for some use cases. But certainly not for everyone.
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Old 26th February 2021, 02:46 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I have also heard accounts of Tesla being very harsh with people who restore salvaged vehicles, not only disarming various features but not allowing them to be repurchased at any price.

One of the problems I recall with the used policy is that I think it changed on the fly, so people who bought cars when supercharging was passed on to used buyers found that at some point it no longer was. I don't know whether that affected anyone after buying a used one, but a part of a new car's perceived value is what value it holds used.
I think there has been a lot of uncertainty and Tesla is going to have to nail that stuff down. I'm not paying attention, so maybe they already have. But the market hates uncertainty.
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Old 26th February 2021, 02:57 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I have serious concerns with this business model. And to me, a vehicle, any vehicle is about transportation and utility above all. I despised Microsoft when they stopped selling software and started selling subscriptions. Don't own me. Don't make me a permanent revenue stream. If I buy photoshop, I should be able to use it until I stop. Not some arbitrary date that the companies decide.

The same is true with a vehicle.
Amen.
I will probably be screaming that at the kids I chase off of my lawn this summer too.
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Old 26th February 2021, 03:02 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I wonder about that. Company A says "you can repair it anywhere" while Company B says "you don't have to repair it". Guess who wins the sale, even if Company B's sales claim is a bit dicey but aren't they all already.

Also, I think the backyard tinkerer is increasingly a rare breed. For any modern car, you need all kinds of specialty testing equipment and tools to do anything more than replacing the wiper blades. In addition, such equipment is not like a wrench which is pretty obvious how to use but rather take training to use properly.

I recognize that your situation, bruto, does not meet the usual car buyer profile but it's also true that not many car buyers live in Smalltown, VT so your not the target buyer anyway.
I'm sorry. I disagree. In some ways it is easier to maintain your own vehicle than ever before. You can purchase an OBD scanner for under $100. You can buy a very advanced one for under $200. The codes are all public now. You can easily Google or search on YouTube whatever problem you might be experiencing and there is a good probability that someone else has encountered and made a video on solving it. When I had my first car, I guessed a lot. Not any more.
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Old 26th February 2021, 03:08 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Amen.
I will probably be screaming that at the kids I chase off of my lawn this summer too.
Lol.

The kids can play on my lawn as long as they like.

My rants are reserved mostly for companies pulling every trick they can to pick my pocket. It rarely does any good. But still I rant.
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Old 26th February 2021, 03:12 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I have also heard accounts of Tesla being very harsh with people who restore salvaged vehicles, not only disarming various features but not allowing them to be repurchased at any price.

One of the problems I recall with the used policy is that I think it changed on the fly, so people who bought cars when supercharging was passed on to used buyers found that at some point it no longer was. I don't know whether that affected anyone after buying a used one, but a part of a new car's perceived value is what value it holds used.
It is my understanding that over the last 6 months Tesla has reformed some of their petty policies. But I could be wrong.
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Old 26th February 2021, 03:25 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm sorry. I disagree. In some ways it is easier to maintain your own vehicle than ever before. You can purchase an OBD scanner for under $100. You can buy a very advanced one for under $200. The codes are all public now. You can easily Google or search on YouTube whatever problem you might be experiencing and there is a good probability that someone else has encountered and made a video on solving it. When I had my first car, I guessed a lot. Not any more.
Tools and garage space are the big barrier imo.
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Old 26th February 2021, 03:27 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm sorry. I disagree. In some ways it is easier to maintain your own vehicle than ever before. You can purchase an OBD scanner for under $100. You can buy a very advanced one for under $200. The codes are all public now. You can easily Google or search on YouTube whatever problem you might be experiencing and there is a good probability that someone else has encountered and made a video on solving it. When I had my first car, I guessed a lot. Not any more.
Indeed.
Although, the available space under the hood for making the repairs has steadily decreased over the years. And the prevalence of brittle plastic connectors is even more annoying than rust once was.
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Old 26th February 2021, 03:28 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I don't mind the model for some things, like MS Office. I don't want to have to upgrade every few years and the subscription is relatively cheap compared to the old over the counter cost. I have that software for work and I can expense the cost so having it spread out is probably easier.
For business owners, I can see that. For personal use, I hate it. But I'm cheap. Usually software like MS Office would come with the computer. Microsoft sold it at a discounted price. And I'd pretty much never upgraded it. If there was some great new bell or whistle, I'd buy a new computer. This led me to having different computers for different applications.


Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
If my car needs were more normal I would consider something like volvo's subscription service that allows you to trade in the car on a regular basis. Seems like it could really work for some use cases. But certainly not for everyone.
Makes sense but I'm not a doctor. Don't make those big bucks.
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Old 26th February 2021, 03:34 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Makes sense but I'm not a doctor. Don't make those big bucks.
Yeah, me neither. Sucks.
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Old 26th February 2021, 03:39 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Indeed.
Although, the available space under the hood for making the repairs has steadily decreased over the years. And the prevalence of brittle plastic connectors is even more annoying than rust once was.
Yea, I've cursed my share of plastic connectors that I've broke. I've also taken ten things off to get at the buried hard to get at component that needs to be repaired.

I also love Harbor Freight. They often sell the tool I need for a price that I can afford. It usually doesn't compare to Snap On or Matco in quality, but I don't make living with them.
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Old 26th February 2021, 03:51 PM   #265
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There are a lot of cheap tools that will do the job you need just once or twice.

I always have to throw in my one big exception to this. Even medium decent (Craftsman, etc.) brake line wrenches are not good enough. Get the ridiculously expensive K-D, Snap-on, etc. ones. They won't slip on the fittings, They'll last forever and you'll never be sorry you have them.
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Old 26th February 2021, 03:56 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The difference is with a traditional car "Oh you'll void your warranty if you do your own repair" becomes a hollow threat after your warranty expires...
It's mostly a howl threat even before the warranty expires, thanks to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus...s_Warranty_Act

In short, they can't void your warranty for doing your own work or having someone else so it, unless they can prove that improperly performed work was the proximate cause of the problem. Similarly, they can't mandate that you use their branded parts, such as filters or fluids or the like, unless they provide those parts for free.
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Old 26th February 2021, 04:27 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
There are a lot of cheap tools that will do the job you need just once or twice.

I always have to throw in my one big exception to this. Even medium decent (Craftsman, etc.) brake line wrenches are not good enough. Get the ridiculously expensive K-D, Snap-on, etc. ones. They won't slip on the fittings, They'll last forever and you'll never be sorry you have them.
I know they are much better. It's the ridiculously expensive that usually stops me.

I have the cheap Harbor Freight flare wrenches and i have never not been able to do a brake job with them. But then I routinely spray oil on all those undercarriage fittings to prevent any rust.

The one expensive tool I wish I had was a lift. So much easier to do those jobs standing up as opposed to on my back.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 26th February 2021 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 26th February 2021, 04:29 PM   #268
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Most here know we bought a Honda Clarity plug-in hybrid back in 2018. A fully charged battery takes it between about 34 to about 55 miles, depending on weather, speed and driving habits. It then reverts to a "pure" hybrid mode, where a 1.5 liter gas engine usually provides electricity to power the wheels and charge the battery, and in specific instances to directly drive the front wheels via a clutch. It's all pretty elegant and transparent in use. Today I was driving along the Ocoee River in E TN in hybrid mode and took a little video of a display that shows how power is flowing from the engine and how electricity is flowing from or into the battery.

https://youtu.be/Ixz5CVbbpqc

If you look closely, there's a little white dot that shows up intermittently between the front wheels. Its actually a little gear icon and shows when power is flowing directly from the engine to the wheels. It's allegedly the most efficient use of engine power, avoid the losses involved in charging and discharging the battery to provide power.

Here's a diagram of what goes on behind the scenes:



I'll admit the PHEV's are just transitional on the way to an all-electric future, but it's perfect for us right now.
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Old 26th February 2021, 05:53 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
My understanding is regarding when a vehicle is sold to a second owner and not about unauthorized repairs.
Yes. beyond the very early cars, lifetime supercharging (No longer available) was tied to the user, not the car.

My (and others) Bone of contention is that people have done repairs/salvage on teslas, paid a hefty sum to Tesla to validate the repairs so they can use the supercharger network, and then later, Tesla changes their mind and disables the ability anyways.

Repairs on teslas are notoriously expensive, due to lack of parts and availability. And Tesla disables all supercharging now on on salvaged vehicles, even if the electrical/drive system is undamaged.
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Old 26th February 2021, 06:10 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I doubt that is going to happen that quickly if at all. Still, I imagine a great many people not owning a vehicle and autonomous vehicles charging around the corner driving to and taking you to your destination and then going to another charging lot or space.
This is what I see as well, self driving vehicles seem to be likely to be very expensive, why own something 24/7 that you only need for one or two hours, six days a week? It seems radical to us now but we're totally immersed in a personal transport model that has only really existed for less than a century, it's been incredibly successful, but I can see the next generation seeing ownership of a car completely differently.

I suspect this will be a problem for me as my business involves driving around with lots of dogs after they, and me, have gotten ourselves very muddy, & that doesn't tend to go down well when someone else owns the car, that & all the stuff I have in my car 'in case I need it', but that's how societal change happens, I'm sure they will be enough of us that something shakes out.
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Old 26th February 2021, 06:34 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
Yes. beyond the very early cars, lifetime supercharging (No longer available) was tied to the user, not the car.

My (and others) Bone of contention is that people have done repairs/salvage on teslas, paid a hefty sum to Tesla to validate the repairs so they can use the supercharger network, and then later, Tesla changes their mind and disables the ability anyways.

Repairs on teslas are notoriously expensive, due to lack of parts and availability. And Tesla disables all supercharging now on on salvaged vehicles, even if the electrical/drive system is undamaged.
I always wonder if they are doing that for a legitimate reason or simply a made up excuse.
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Old 26th February 2021, 06:38 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
This is what I see as well, self driving vehicles seem to be likely to be very expensive, why own something 24/7 that you only need for one or two hours, six days a week? It seems radical to us now but we're totally immersed in a personal transport model that has only really existed for less than a century, it's been incredibly successful, but I can see the next generation seeing ownership of a car completely differently.

I suspect this will be a problem for me as my business involves driving around with lots of dogs after they, and me, have gotten ourselves very muddy, & that doesn't tend to go down well when someone else owns the car, that & all the stuff I have in my car 'in case I need it', but that's how societal change happens, I'm sure they will be enough of us that something shakes out.
I imagine that most of these autonomous vehicles will be made so they can be washed out with a hose. Still, who wants to get into a filthy car.
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Old 26th February 2021, 07:22 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I got car sick.
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Old 26th February 2021, 08:02 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I got car sick.
Funny - in the car of course I was fine. Watching it did make me feel a little "off".
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Old 27th February 2021, 04:51 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm sorry. I disagree. In some ways it is easier to maintain your own vehicle than ever before. You can purchase an OBD scanner for under $100. You can buy a very advanced one for under $200. The codes are all public now. You can easily Google or search on YouTube whatever problem you might be experiencing and there is a good probability that someone else has encountered and made a video on solving it. When I had my first car, I guessed a lot. Not any more.
I had to replace mine after I asked my wife to get everything out of the car I was trading in while I signed the paperwork and she picked it up looked at it and decided that it was supposed to go with the car...

I bought a bluetooth scanner that pairs to a free smartphone app for £6.99! It reads codes & automatically looks them up in a database and displays all the realtime data from the system. Seriously, it was less than $10!
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Old 27th February 2021, 09:03 AM   #276
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I saw a recent item on the net noting that there's an upsurge in electric school bus orders.

That sounds like a really good trend. School buses already are very economical from a person-per-mile standpoint, but they emit a good bit of pollution and cost a fair amount in fuel. But a large part of a school bus's running time is done standing still while kids board and exit, since not only must they stop for this, but wait until the kids are safely off the road.

It remains to be seen whether the first cost is reasonable enough. An electric vehicle should be cheap to maintain, and last a long time, but at least here in New England, school buses are often taken off the road not for wear and tear but rust, so we'll have to wait and see how it all balances out. I would think, though, that for urban and suburban use, where there are very many stops and relatively short mileages, it would pay off well.
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Old 27th February 2021, 09:40 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I saw a recent item on the net noting that there's an upsurge in electric school bus orders.

That sounds like a really good trend. School buses already are very economical from a person-per-mile standpoint, but they emit a good bit of pollution and cost a fair amount in fuel. But a large part of a school bus's running time is done standing still while kids board and exit, since not only must they stop for this, but wait until the kids are safely off the road.

It remains to be seen whether the first cost is reasonable enough. An electric vehicle should be cheap to maintain, and last a long time, but at least here in New England, school buses are often taken off the road not for wear and tear but rust, so we'll have to wait and see how it all balances out. I would think, though, that for urban and suburban use, where there are very many stops and relatively short mileages, it would pay off well.
Or, perhaps buyers, now they can get a low-maintenance drive train, should demand vehicles that don't rust. Obviously, suppliers will not like that, because vehicles with a life-span of several decades are not good for business, but if customers insist, they are going to have to supply them.

Hans
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Old 27th February 2021, 10:06 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I had to replace mine after I asked my wife to get everything out of the car I was trading in while I signed the paperwork and she picked it up looked at it and decided that it was supposed to go with the car...

I bought a bluetooth scanner that pairs to a free smartphone app for £6.99! It reads codes & automatically looks them up in a database and displays all the realtime data from the system. Seriously, it was less than $10!



I see the ads for them all the time. I paid $169 for my scanner.
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Old 27th February 2021, 10:09 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Or, perhaps buyers, now they can get a low-maintenance drive train, should demand vehicles that don't rust. Obviously, suppliers will not like that, because vehicles with a life-span of several decades are not good for business, but if customers insist, they are going to have to supply them.

Hans
Low maintenance does not necessarily equal a lifespan of several decades. True a rust free shell can have the running gear replaced multiple times, but that equipment still has to be produced decades after the construction of the vehicles - and the manufacturers can charge for the spares instead of a new vehicle.
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Old 27th February 2021, 10:57 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Low maintenance does not necessarily equal a lifespan of several decades. True a rust free shell can have the running gear replaced multiple times, but that equipment still has to be produced decades after the construction of the vehicles - and the manufacturers can charge for the spares instead of a new vehicle.
An electrical drive train has the potential for a long life: Few moving parts, relatively low working temperatures, no parts that are intrinsically prone to wear out (e.g. clutches).

Only life-span problem is the battery, but that can be replaced. And be reused.

Of course, any needed spare parts will come at a price. How else should they be produced?

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