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Old 18th May 2021, 11:22 AM   #241
lomiller
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post

Trivial example: An attraction claims to admit all races, but gives a gatekeeper discretion on who to let in. Having no instructions to the contrary, and expressing no policy to that effect, they turn away 95% of one race and only 30% of another.


In this case call it discrimination based on skin color. It's almost certainly a better description of what's going on here.

When you say they are discriminating based on race you imply there is a valid groping called race with additional properties beyond skin color. Since "race" and the properties that define it are vague it makes it easier to mislead people into thinking "perhaps there is some other properly of race that justifies who gets let in to the attraction"
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Old 18th May 2021, 12:27 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
How would you describe someone else's racist behavior then?
Okay, so, for example:

Quote:
Three groups of identical fabricated resumes are sent to help-wanted advertisements in Chicago newspapers: one with Anglo-Saxon names, one with African-American names, and one with fictitious foreign names whose ethnic origin is unidentifiable to most Americans. Resumes with Anglo-Saxon names generate nearly one third more call-backs than identical resumes with non Anglo-Saxon ones, either African-American or Foreign. We take this as evidence that discriminatory behavior is part of a larger pattern of unequal treatment of any member of non-majority groups, ethnic homophily.
SOURCE
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Old 18th May 2021, 01:14 PM   #243
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How does that differ from the language you would like to see fall into disuse?
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Old 18th May 2021, 01:25 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
How does that differ from the language you would like to see fall into disuse?
In at least three ways.
  1. Doesn't encourage people to think in terms of black/white dichotomy
  2. Doesn't encourage the traditional idea of a handful of human races
  3. Emphasizes ethnic groups (which are real) rather than reifying race
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Old 18th May 2021, 03:10 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
When you say they are discriminating based on race you imply there is a valid groping called race with additional properties beyond skin color. Since "race" and the properties that define it are vague it makes it easier to mislead people into thinking "perhaps there is some other properly of race that justifies who gets let in to the attraction"
Skin color is a terrible metric. In US (and mainly the E.Coast) there is this thinking that blacks are some monolith of race- and I lived in Baltimore for 6 years- it's very different on this side- or rather in my specific place on this side.

If my Ethiopian friend was in charge of the ride in the example above, NO Nigerians would be let in. None! I stepped on that land mine a few months ago saying Nigerians seemed to do best among Africans in testing in the UK, "Oh no no no no" she insists. "That cannot be true!!! Nigerians? Pffft" (haha I do back off in these instances when I step on some cultural thing I dont know about)
And my co-worker from Cameroon would agree with her because Nigerians at some point stole women from his village- so the story goes.
But it's not hate for all of the Nigerians according to my Cameroonian amigo and his 'verbiage' on the matter (because he seems to use the word verbiage a LOT!). It's just the sneaky ones near his part of the country, which is where the 'evil' engineer we worked with was from.

I'm just glad, with all the faux pas I have made in my travels, I have yet to be punched in the face!

I once told an Australian guy he looked like a Greek statue. It was so offensive to him!! (just ask an older Australian why that was so)

So yeah....skin color is a piss poor metric in most of the world.
Saying something offensive about another persons favorite soccer(football) team might get you the same reaction though. As would calling his girlfriend a fat whore. People often reach for the meanest thing they think will get under someones skin. Humans. What are you gonna do with them?

**(apologies that part of this relates to another thread from today but I'm just leaving it here)

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Old 18th May 2021, 04:12 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I have to disagree with that. Obvious and explicit are two different things.

Trivial example: An attraction claims to admit all races, but gives a gatekeeper discretion on who to let in. Having no instructions to the contrary, and expressing no policy to that effect, they turn away 95% of one race and only 30% of another.

That is an obvious bias, and it is also implicit because it is not codified in any way.

But splitting those hairs is not my point. Use my first example if you find the second too muddy.
Different terminology at play.

You're using "implicit" and "bias" as two independent terms. ahhell is using them as one term "implicit bias", which describes a subconscious application of stereotypes and how those subconscious biases implicitly drive decisions and interactions.
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Old 18th May 2021, 04:14 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
That's a dystopian nightmare. A group of unaccountable self-selected experts that get to veto any law or policy. Not to mention, "pre-clearing" polices for future results. I guess he's never heard of unintended consequences. No worry, those experts are experts after all.

Pretty much all of the current solutions seem to go this way. To not be racist you just have to agree with all of my policy ideas.
I swear Kendi is using Orwell's writings as a play book rather than the cautionary tale as which it was intended.
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Old 18th May 2021, 06:26 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I once told an Australian guy he looked like a Greek statue. It was so offensive to him!! (just ask an older Australian why that was so)
I'm an older Australian, and I'm not sure I know what you mean.
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Old 18th May 2021, 06:29 PM   #249
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Old 19th May 2021, 12:32 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm an older Australian, and I'm not sure I know what you mean.
According to all my boyfriends group in Manly, this meant he was not 'true blue'. The whole Greek/Italian thing.

May have been leftover from his parents but it was quite weird to see for me at the time that Greeks (and Italians) were on the same hierarchy as Wogs. Greeks and Italians for me were always 'white' but Australians- at least the ones in Sydney- had a different view of it. But I didnt know US east coast history then which was similar, if just a bit earlier. For my Nana in Sydney, in the years after my 1993 visit, it was the Lebanese taking over her neighborhood- but by 2004 when I returned, she was good with it and liked her new neighbors (she has since passed away).

It all changes depending on who comes in and how well they integrate (and honestly, it might be the food!)

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Old 19th May 2021, 05:51 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Different terminology at play.

You're using "implicit" and "bias" as two independent terms. ahhell is using them as one term "implicit bias", which describes a subconscious application of stereotypes and how those subconscious biases implicitly drive decisions and interactions.
If that's so, then ahell was misunderstanding the meaning of what I proposed. I hope my comment clarified.
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Old 19th May 2021, 05:55 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Skin color is a terrible metric. In US (and mainly the E.Coast) there is this thinking that blacks are some monolith of race- and I lived in Baltimore for 6 years- it's very different on this side- or rather in my specific place on this side.

If my Ethiopian friend was in charge of the ride in the example above, NO Nigerians would be let in. None! I stepped on that land mine a few months ago saying Nigerians seemed to do best among Africans in testing in the UK, "Oh no no no no" she insists. "That cannot be true!!! Nigerians? Pffft" (haha I do back off in these instances when I step on some cultural thing I dont know about)
And my co-worker from Cameroon would agree with her because Nigerians at some point stole women from his village- so the story goes.
But it's not hate for all of the Nigerians according to my Cameroonian amigo and his 'verbiage' on the matter (because he seems to use the word verbiage a LOT!). It's just the sneaky ones near his part of the country, which is where the 'evil' engineer we worked with was from.

I'm just glad, with all the faux pas I have made in my travels, I have yet to be punched in the face!

I once told an Australian guy he looked like a Greek statue. It was so offensive to him!! (just ask an older Australian why that was so)

So yeah....skin color is a piss poor metric in most of the world.
Saying something offensive about another persons favorite soccer(football) team might get you the same reaction though. As would calling his girlfriend a fat whore. People often reach for the meanest thing they think will get under someones skin. Humans. What are you gonna do with them?

**(apologies that part of this relates to another thread from today but I'm just leaving it here)
I think that's a very good point.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
In at least three ways.
  1. Doesn't encourage people to think in terms of black/white dichotomy
  2. Doesn't encourage the traditional idea of a handful of human races
  3. Emphasizes ethnic groups (which are real) rather than reifying race
I understand about not wanting to encourage certain types of thinking, but we need words to accurately describe what another person is thinking, even if we disapprove. Describing it according to skin color mistakes their motive, as Sherkeu points out here.

If there's no way to describe the motive of the person discriminating, you miss the cause and likely fail to address it effectively.
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Old 19th May 2021, 09:59 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
If there's no way to describe the motive of the person discriminating, you miss the cause and likely fail to address it effectively.
I'd be interested in seeing a specific example, if that's possible. The example I gave was about ethnic homophily, which isn't quite the same thing as racism.
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Old 19th May 2021, 05:08 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
According to all my boyfriends group in Manly, this meant he was not 'true blue'. The whole Greek/Italian thing.

May have been leftover from his parents but it was quite weird to see for me at the time that Greeks (and Italians) were on the same hierarchy as Wogs. Greeks and Italians for me were always 'white' but Australians- at least the ones in Sydney- had a different view of it. But I didnt know US east coast history then which was similar, if just a bit earlier. For my Nana in Sydney, in the years after my 1993 visit, it was the Lebanese taking over her neighborhood- but by 2004 when I returned, she was good with it and liked her new neighbors (she has since passed away).

It all changes depending on who comes in and how well they integrate (and honestly, it might be the food!)
Interesting. I've never heard of that but I am extremely Anglo and have never really interacted with the Greek/Italian culture. I have a possible explanation for it though, and that is because Greek statues typically have very tiny penises, since that was considered attractive at the time. Calling someone a Greek statue might be like doing this:

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Old 19th May 2021, 05:20 PM   #255
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Old 20th May 2021, 08:25 AM   #256
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Somewhat apropos of the what counts as white. My grandfather's naturalization papers list his race as "irish" and his nationality as "British" my grandmothers came a few years later and list her race as "white" and nationality as "Irish". Probably because he immigrated before 1922 and she immigrated after.

At least in the US, race has really become a lot more limited concept in the last hundred years or so.

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Old 20th May 2021, 08:43 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
All of that sort of started when "privilege" became the new accepted term to use in the social debate.

I am the guy who's always said "privilege" the way it was primarily used (outside of any social technical definitions of what the term was supposed to mean in that context) really did just quickly degrade into "White Guilt Version 2.0"

Mainly because it always came with so little actual practical... okay now what? with it. You just supposed to be "aware" of it and that was it. I'm sorry that functionally is the same thing as guilt.
Yep that is why any teaching that white people have had an easier time of things than blacks in America is down right racist and only intended to inspire guilt. Hence why we need to cull things like slavery from our history text books, and why looking at the Tulsa race riots is right out. That could cause guilt.

Up next removing any reference to the holocaust from german history books because it causes guilty feelings.
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Old 20th May 2021, 08:52 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
According to all my boyfriends group in Manly, this meant he was not 'true blue'. The whole Greek/Italian thing.

May have been leftover from his parents but it was quite weird to see for me at the time that Greeks (and Italians) were on the same hierarchy as Wogs. Greeks and Italians for me were always 'white' but Australians- at least the ones in Sydney- had a different view of it. But I didnt know US east coast history then which was similar, if just a bit earlier. For my Nana in Sydney, in the years after my 1993 visit, it was the Lebanese taking over her neighborhood- but by 2004 when I returned, she was good with it and liked her new neighbors (she has since passed away).

It all changes depending on who comes in and how well they integrate (and honestly, it might be the food!)
Well there are plenty of anti italian epithets. Dago, wop, Guinea. Don't think those are typically anti greek as well. My quick checking of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_by_ethnicity lacks anti greek slurs
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Old 20th May 2021, 09:23 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Somewhat apropos of the what counts as white. My grandfather's naturalization papers list his race as "irish" and his nationality as "British" my grandmothers came a few years later and list her race as "white" and nationality as "Irish". Probably because he immigrated before 1922 and she immigrated after.
Does this plate count as White Pride?

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Old 20th May 2021, 07:27 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well there are plenty of anti italian epithets. Dago, wop, Guinea. Don't think those are typically anti greek as well. My quick checking of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_by_ethnicity lacks anti greek slurs
In Australia, Italians, Greeks and Lebanese are all called "wogs". Possibly because they all came over in the same wave, after the war.
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Old 20th May 2021, 10:29 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Interesting. I've never heard of that but I am extremely Anglo and have never really interacted with the Greek/Italian culture. I have a possible explanation for it though, and that is because Greek statues typically have very tiny penises, since that was considered attractive at the time. Calling someone a Greek statue might be like doing this:

https://i.imgur.com/4uoLIsf.jpg
I just imagine it was a bunch of small dick guys getting together and decreeing small dicks are the best. Like hey, put that thing away, way too big to carve.
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Old 21st May 2021, 09:07 AM   #262
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I have never really understood the masculine competition on penis size. Why do males seem to believe that bigger is better?
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Old 21st May 2021, 09:16 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I have never really understood the masculine competition on penis size. Why do males seem to believe that bigger is better?
Because it feels better to the owner. Larger size = more nerves = more sensation. Even ignoring all the psychological and cultural baggage, just the mechanics of it provide a benefit.
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Old 21st May 2021, 09:22 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I have never really understood the masculine competition on penis size. Why do males seem to believe that bigger is better?
According to a number of documentaries I've seen on the internet, the larger (and darker for some reason) ones are strongly preferred by women.
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Old 21st May 2021, 09:52 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Because it feels better to the owner. Larger size = more nerves = more sensation. Even ignoring all the psychological and cultural baggage, just the mechanics of it provide a benefit.
I have my doubts about the biology on that. My understanding is that sensitivity is more about nerve endings per area. Thus, larger size and more nerves does not translate to greater sensation.
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Old 21st May 2021, 09:57 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I have my doubts about the biology on that. My understanding is that sensitivity is more about nerve endings per area. Thus, larger size and more nerves does not translate to greater sensation.
But wouldn't more mass require more nerves? That's how it works with blood vessels, I'm pretty sure.

eta: a few minutes of Googling suggests I'm wrong about more nerves. However, I think nonetheless I'll go ahead and keep what I got instead of exchanging it for a smaller model. Also during my internet searching I came up with some interesting tangential studies, which I will now go pursue with diligent academic fervor.
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Old 21st May 2021, 10:48 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Because it feels better to the owner. Larger size = more nerves = more sensation. Even ignoring all the psychological and cultural baggage, just the mechanics of it provide a benefit.
I've never understood that as reason for the competition--seems to me it's attempting to prove who would be more desirable to prospective partners. On a questionable basis for comparison, but when all you have is a hammer... ok I'll stop there.

https://i.imgur.com/gWgHvDw.gif
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Old 21st May 2021, 01:01 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
According to a number of documentaries I've seen on the internet, the larger (and darker for some reason) ones are strongly preferred by women.
So there could be some value in getting a tanning lamp...
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Old 21st May 2021, 01:08 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
So there could be some value in getting a tanning lamp...
You be careful with that now!
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Old 24th May 2021, 12:13 PM   #270
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Quote:
Scenes From The Culture War
Yoga, the 1619 project, and Critical Race Theory

...

Here’s an example of how bad the bad faith argumentation has gotten. Christopher Rufo has become one of the go-to critics of CRT. His work has appeared in the Manhattan Institute’s City Journal, Fox News, and the NY Post; he has also been featured by Hillsdale College; and touted by the Heritage Foundation.

Rufo also reportedly inspired Trump’s personal interest in the issue. After hearing Rufo on Fox News describing “critical race theory programs in government” as “the cult of indoctrination,” Trump issued an executive order last year banning “diversity and race sensitivity training” in the federal government, including all “spending related to any training on critical race theory.”

But here is Rufo, essentially giving away the game. For Rufo, it is all about “branding,’ and the audacity of his charlatanry is breathtaking
https://morningshots.thebulwark.com/...he-culture-war

One of the leading critics of CRT is pretty candid about the bad faith approach to smearing pretty much anything they don't like as critical race theory.
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Old 24th May 2021, 12:38 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
One of the leading critics of CRT is pretty candid about the bad faith approach to smearing pretty much anything they don't like as critical race theory.
From the article:
Quote:
Friedersdorf also notes that the 1619 Project itself is problematic. An “ideologically diverse group of critics” has argued that 1619 Project “was marred by multiple factual errors, damning revelations from a fact-checker, and obfuscatory stealth edits…”

But many of those critiques were “overlooked or waved away by focusing exclusively on the dumbest criticism of the project…”
We could be talking about the content of Critical Race Theory (the Bulwark article itself nearly touches on it) but instead we're focusing on bad faith propogandists like Rufo, b/c reasons.
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Old 24th May 2021, 01:05 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
From the article:


We could be talking about the content of Critical Race Theory (the Bulwark article itself nearly touches on it) but instead we're focusing on bad faith propogandists like Rufo, b/c reasons.
Yes, reasons like relevance.

Feel free to completely ignore any of the relevant cultural context that this obvious bad-faith smear is taking place in, but don't be surprised if others aren't also so willfully blind.
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Old 24th May 2021, 01:26 PM   #273
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The critical race theory kerfuffle that wasn't.

Quote:
Kevin Richert 05/24/2021
An independent investigation of a Boise State University diversity course found no evidence of wrongdoing.

What’s more, investigators from the Boise law firm Hawley Troxell found no signs of student indoctrination — the very conduct legislators targeted with a law passed in the waning days of the 2021 session.

Boise State released the Hawley Troxell report Monday — more than two months after temporarily suspending its University Foundations 200 course, over complaints that students had been harassed because of their personal beliefs and values. Days later, Boise State hired Hawley Troxell to investigate the complaints, using a budget line item earmarked to handle bias or discrimination complaints. (Boise State hasn’t yet received a bill for Hawley Troxell’s investigation, spokeswoman Lauren Griswold said Monday morning.)

...


Saying they were frustrated by university social justice programs, the Legislature cut $1.5 million from Boise State’s budget, $500,000 from the University of Idaho and $500,000 from Idaho State University. Lawmakers also passed House Bill 377, an anti-indoctrination law specifically targeting critical race theory.
A non-student reporter that claimed to have seen a video that showed a white student being instructed to apologize for the sins of the white race, but was unable to produce such a video for the investigation. No student was found that corroborate the smear that was used as justification to cut funding to the school and to write legislation to fight the critical race theory menace.

Right wing org that was spearhead of the effort insists that the investigation was a sham.

Call me crazy, but I'm starting to think these rabid reactionaries aren't exactly interested in the truth.
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Old 24th May 2021, 03:12 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, reasons like relevance.
In what sense are right-wing propagandists relevant to the subject of Critical Race Theory? They don't appear to understand it, or else they are willfully attempting to make others misunderstand it. They've made no effort to describe and critique it, so far as I can tell. Why focus on them, given that they add nothing substantive to the discussion?
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Old 25th May 2021, 04:11 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
In what sense are right-wing propagandists relevant to the subject of Critical Race Theory? They don't appear to understand it, or else they are willfully attempting to make others misunderstand it. They've made no effort to describe and critique it, so far as I can tell. Why focus on them, given that they add nothing substantive to the discussion?
First, this is "Social Issues & Current Events". Second, ST just showed you why this once-obscure legal field is a Social Issue - it's because Christopher Ruso made it one by lying about it on Fox News, at which point Toupee Fiasco started ranting about it.
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Old 25th May 2021, 09:01 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://morningshots.thebulwark.com/...he-culture-war

One of the leading critics of CRT is pretty candid about the bad faith approach to smearing pretty much anything they don't like as critical race theory.
I think the most relevant bit to this discussion is:
Quote:
But perhaps polarization is the point, because it actually benefits both sides of the 1619 vs 1776 food fight. Jonathan Chait observes that “People with extreme views often prefer to polarize the debate so they don't need to engage with more measured critics or compete with more reasonable alternatives.”

Well, exactly.

Which brings us to the chronically bad-faith fight over “Critical Race Theory,” whatever people think that means. At its extremes CRT is reductionist, heavy-handed, and illiberal — but the debate seems to have devolved into something else. To be sure, there have been detailed and trenchant critiques of the theory. There have also been numerous in-depth explainers such as this one in the Atlantic and this one from CNN. Other attempts have been made on Twitter and on blogs.
Sure, lets all focus on the extreme bits of both CRT and Anti-CRT rhetoric.
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Old 25th May 2021, 12:20 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
ST just showed you why this once-obscure legal field is a Social Issue - it's because Christopher Ruso made it one by lying about it on Fox News, at which point Toupee Fiasco started ranting about it.
Derrick Bell, Kimberlé Crenshaw, Richard Delgado, and the other founding scholars of Critical Race Theory have been writing about social issues for decades, as you well know; CRT has always been about social issues. I suppose you could make a case that it's also filed under current events these days, but only in the sense that GOP activists are using the phrase as a scare tactic.

I'll ask again: What do the conservative folks bring to the table that's worth talking about? If no one can come up with anything, why not discuss the substance of CRT itself?
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Old 25th May 2021, 12:21 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Derrick Bell, Kimberlé Crenshaw, Richard Delgado, and the other founding scholars of Critical Race Theory have been writing about social issues for decades, as you well know; CRT has always been about social issues. I suppose you could make a case that it's also filed under current events these days, but only in the sense that GOP activists are using the phrase as a scare tactic.
Be honest, have you cared about this obscure academic theory for decades, or only somewhat recently as the right wing has propped it up as their boogieman of the day?
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Old 25th May 2021, 12:54 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Be honest, have you cared about this obscure academic theory for decades, or only somewhat recently as the right wing has propped it up as their boogieman of the day?
OP raises a specific topic, I agree that it's an interesting topic worth talking about. I've tried to find substantive conservative critiques of specific bits of it, but so far haven't found any. So far as I can tell, no one else has either.

(You'll notice that I haven't answered your question, but only because you're addressing the arguer rather than the argument.)
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Old 25th May 2021, 01:49 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
OP raises a specific topic, I agree that it's an interesting topic worth talking about. I've tried to find substantive conservative critiques of specific bits of it, but so far haven't found any. So far as I can tell, no one else has either.

(You'll notice that I haven't answered your question, but only because you're addressing the arguer rather than the argument.)
Ok, I'll answer your previous question.

What conservatives bring to the topic is the assertion that even modest recognition of our racist history is bunk social science taught by cultural marxists, and whether you agree or not they are going to use political power to enforce that understanding using the law.

Keep ignoring the elephant in the room all you like, I find it quite tedious.
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