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Old 25th May 2021, 03:13 PM   #281
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What conservatives bring to the topic is the assertion that even modest recognition of our racist history is bunk social science taught by cultural marxists...
Assertions without evidence may be dismissed without deliberation.

(I forget how Hitch phrased it, but you get the idea.)
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Keep ignoring the elephant in the room all you like, I find it quite tedious.
If "the room" is the set of discussions about critical race theories which take those theories at face value and try to grapple with them in good faith, then the GOP elephant has no place in the room. At some point in the future the poor creature may well find itself in the room, but as of now it's on the outside trumpeting something unintelligible.
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Old 25th May 2021, 03:42 PM   #282
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To be fair, the GOP as it exists to day, doesn't belong in any room. They aren't the only conservatives in the US though. Its questionable if you can even call them conservative.

One of the probably legitimate criticisms from conservatives I've see and heard is that CRT(at least the philosphical version) basically rejects liberal values.
Quote:
Critique of liberalism: Critical race theory scholars question foundational liberal concepts such as Enlightenment rationality, legal equality,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critic...heory#Academic

As both sides in that debate I linked to earlier thought, there is good and bad in CRT. You can judge for your self about the balance but acting as though there is no good or no bad is fairly silly.

Edit to add, I think the reductionist criticism is also fair. Some of its proponents to make seem as all of societies ills are due to racism and racism is everywhere and in all things. Probably not what they would say if ask but it often seems that way.

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Old 25th May 2021, 03:48 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
One of the probably legitimate criticisms from conservatives I've see and heard is that CRT(at least the philosphical version) basically rejects liberal values.
It's not "rejection" of a value to assert that the value in question isn't being/hasn't been actually applied, in history or currently. Finding fault with Mother Teresa's work, for instance, isn't a rejection of the value of charity, it's assessing that in that instance the value claimed was inadequately served.

If anything, holding people and institutions accountable for how they perform in service of a value is far preferable to an uncritical acceptance of anybody just because they claim to hold an honored value. Wouldn't that be the skeptical approach?
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Old 25th May 2021, 03:56 PM   #284
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At least some of its proponents do seem to reject things like equality under the law, western science, and what not. Or at least have a somewhat post-modern view of western science as being just one narrative, and one that is racist.

I emphasize, seem, as I've only a diletante's understanding of the matter.
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Old 25th May 2021, 03:57 PM   #285
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Is there really enough substance to CRT to merit the designation "theory"? I'm suspicious of the science being practised or originating in the humanities at the best of times, but this stuff seems particularly content-free even by their standards and it appears to be spreading to the rest of the curriculum.
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Old 25th May 2021, 04:01 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
One of the probably legitimate criticisms from conservatives I've see and heard is that CRT(at least the philosphical version) basically rejects liberal values.
The thing about values is that everyone has their own. Some people value free inquiry, others value conformance to established dogma. How can people in one camp appeal to the other one without going beyond their own values to do so?

ETA: To bring this back to CRT, some theorists have proposed criminalizing or otherwise penalizing hate speech on campus. Some conservatives have proposed criminalizing flag-burning. From where I'm sitting, they have similar motivations, each striving to protect that which they hold sacred against symbolic affront. The liberal is at a loss in either case, though, inasmuch as their interlocutors do not share broadly Millian values.
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Old 25th May 2021, 05:15 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Be honest, have you cared about this obscure academic theory for decades, or only somewhat recently as the right wing has propped it up as their boogieman of the day?
Honestly, I began to care about this obscure academic theory when Beverly DiAngelo's utter travesty of a book, "White Fragility" began being lauded as some insightful and wonderful thing instead of the embarassingly idiotic and illogical pile of crap that it actually is.

That's when I started looking into what CRT actually was, saw some good core concepts and a LOT of incredibly dumb bits. It's also when I started looking at how CRT is being applied outside of academia and decided it's a bad idea altogether.

There's a nugget in there that is useful in evaluating how our society functions in aggregate, and the way that past policies still permeate current practice. But the way it's being applied, the inherent assumption that everything is white supremacy - including math - is one of the most astonishingly blatant abuses of belief over reason since the silencing of Galileo.
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Old 25th May 2021, 07:45 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's not "rejection" of a value to assert that the value in question isn't being/hasn't been actually applied, in history or currently. Finding fault with Mother Teresa's work, for instance, isn't a rejection of the value of charity, it's assessing that in that instance the value claimed was inadequately served.

If anything, holding people and institutions accountable for how they perform in service of a value is far preferable to an uncritical acceptance of anybody just because they claim to hold an honored value. Wouldn't that be the skeptical approach?
There's more than that. For example, "Legal equality" in this case means that there should be, from 1968 onward, absolutely no legal policy favoring black (I'll add Native this once - apply it throughout) people or communities. Everyone is equal right when we passed fair housing. We're colorblind now, isn't it grand?

No. It's not.

Black children are still, today, exposed to more heavy metals like lead and mercury, they still go to underfunded schools, and take on more debt to go to college, highways still cut them off from many areas, black women are still vastly more likely to die in childbirth, they still face employment discrimination, their homes are still evaluated as lower-valued simply by them owning it, and we can go on and on and on.

Oh, and that wealth that was stripped from them by the government to enrich *some* white people? Still missing.

(Meanwhile, since this is still a forum to discuss current events, and the rampant misinformation surrounding CRT is very much on topic, here's an interesting substack documenting, thus far, the wild-eyed lies of Christopher Rufo and James Lindsay)

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Old 25th May 2021, 08:01 PM   #289
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Are any of the "wild-eyed lies" related to specific testable claims from CRT? (Quick skim says not so much.)
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Old 26th May 2021, 05:07 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Honestly, I began to care about this obscure academic theory when Beverly DiAngelo's utter travesty of a book, "White Fragility" began being lauded as some insightful and wonderful thing instead of the embarrassingly idiotic and illogical pile of crap that it actually is.

That's when I started looking into what CRT actually was, saw some good core concepts and a LOT of incredibly dumb bits. It's also when I started looking at how CRT is being applied outside of academia and decided it's a bad idea altogether.

There's a nugget in there that is useful in evaluating how our society functions in aggregate, and the way that past policies still permeate current practice. But the way it's being applied, the inherent assumption that everything is white supremacy - including math - is one of the most astonishingly blatant abuses of belief over reason since the silencing of Galileo.
I think you mean Robin DiAngelo, but that gave me a laugh, thanks. Don't think the actor that plays the wife from National Lampoon's Vacation movies has much to say on the subject.

There's been a lot of fair and level headed criticism of the book white fragility, mostly in regards to what is proposed as a solution. I can see why it is popular as a diversity training program, it proposes exactly the kind of tedious navel gazing and lack of concrete action that Human Resource types must love. It's the kind of training that HR can mandate for employees that checks the right boxes, but doesn't actually meaningfully change how things are done around the workplace.

There has been interesting discussion over this book and the brand of white self-flagellation as a solution that is proposes, but that is neither here nor there when it comes to the reactionary freak out that is currently occurring in this country.
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Old 26th May 2021, 05:58 AM   #291
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More discussion on how the unhinged fear-mongering about CRT leads to reactionary censorship:

Quote:
No evidence of student mistreatment
As FIRE previously reported, Boise State suspended all sections of its University Foundations 200 course on March 16, shortly after the state’s joint budget committee proposed a $409,000 cut in the university’s funding as part of lawmakers’ ongoing efforts to contain teaching and activities related to “social justice” and “critical race theory.” At the time, Boise State said it had “been made aware of a series of concerns, culminating in allegations that a student or students have been humiliated and degraded in class on our campus for their beliefs and values.”

...


After conducting a thorough and independent investigation, we were unable to substantiate the alleged instance of a student being mistreated in a UF 200 course as described by the Complainant. No students reported being forced to apologize for the color of their skin. Nor did any student report being personally singled out based on skin color or being subjected to taunts, name-calling, or other degrading behavior from an instructor or other students based on skin color, beliefs, or ideas.
https://www.thefire.org/investigatio...ntiated-rumor/


Quote:
The upshot of all of this is that Boise State suspended 55 classes — affecting about 1,300 students — based on an unsubstantiated secondhand report that a student was mistreated in one of them.
The source of the complaint was a non-student who claims to saw a video showing racial mistreatment of a white person as part of these courses. When pressed, this person could not produce any such video. The whole freakout was initiated by some 2nd-hand, unsubstantiated account from someone who wasn't there.


CHUD lies about CRT in colleges and the entire state political system goes into full meltdown. Totally normal and good.
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Old 26th May 2021, 07:17 AM   #292
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Wasn't Critical Race Theory phased out in favor of Liberal Ethnic Doctrine by 2010 or so?
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Old 26th May 2021, 07:38 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think you mean Robin DiAngelo, but that gave me a laugh, thanks. Don't think the actor that plays the wife from National Lampoon's Vacation movies has much to say on the subject.
Fun fact: Beverly D'Angelo was the voice of country music singer Lurleen Lumpkin in her first appearance on The Simpsons. She wrote two of the songs and yes, that was her singing. She's actually pretty good, and that's coming from someone who doesn't care for country music.

Now You Know!!!
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Old 26th May 2021, 08:35 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Honestly, I began to care about this obscure academic theory when Beverly DiAngelo's utter travesty of a book, "White Fragility" began being lauded as some insightful and wonderful thing instead of the embarassingly idiotic and illogical pile of crap that it actually is.
I mean, the major problem (again) is that she's not involved in CRT. What few reviews I've heard of her book mention some appallingly bad takes and arguments, so I'm not shocked to hear the same here.

Still, I haven't read it, so I won't speak directly to anything it says, because I haven't done the homework.

You could probably start with Faces at the Bottom of the Well by Prof. Bell...but there's a lot of work involved in CRT, and most of it, again, is purely academic.
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Old 26th May 2021, 01:06 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think you mean Robin DiAngelo, but that gave me a laugh, thanks. Don't think the actor that plays the wife from National Lampoon's Vacation movies has much to say on the subject.
Yes, Robin not Beverly.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There's been a lot of fair and level headed criticism of the book white fragility, mostly in regards to what is proposed as a solution. I can see why it is popular as a diversity training program, it proposes exactly the kind of tedious navel gazing and lack of concrete action that Human Resource types must love. It's the kind of training that HR can mandate for employees that checks the right boxes, but doesn't actually meaningfully change how things are done around the workplace.

There has been interesting discussion over this book and the brand of white self-flagellation as a solution that is proposes, but that is neither here nor there when it comes to the reactionary freak out that is currently occurring in this country.
The book is a pretty good exemplar of the poisonous step between academic concept and application.

CRT as a thought-construct has some value, and some interesting ways of looking at things. But it hasn't stayed in academia... and DiAngelo's absurd approach is pretty representative of the way CRT is being mutilated and foisted off on people. It has completely failed to translate into any practical application whatsoever.

I end up thinking that a lot of the objection to "CRT" is reasonable and appropriate, because the only "CRT" that every-day people are being exposed to is the bastardized version that DiAngelo and others of her ilk are preaching.

And really, I think it's entirely appropriate to call out that approach as being detrimental and toxic tripe.
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Old 26th May 2021, 01:10 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I mean, the major problem (again) is that she's not involved in CRT. What few reviews I've heard of her book mention some appallingly bad takes and arguments, so I'm not shocked to hear the same here.

Still, I haven't read it, so I won't speak directly to anything it says, because I haven't done the homework.

You could probably start with Faces at the Bottom of the Well by Prof. Bell...but there's a lot of work involved in CRT, and most of it, again, is purely academic.
I feel like you really missed my point here...

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That's when I started looking into what CRT actually was, saw some good core concepts and a LOT of incredibly dumb bits. It's also when I started looking at how CRT is being applied outside of academia and decided it's a bad idea altogether.

There's a nugget in there that is useful in evaluating how our society functions in aggregate, and the way that past policies still permeate current practice. But the way it's being applied, the inherent assumption that everything is white supremacy - including math - is one of the most astonishingly blatant abuses of belief over reason since the silencing of Galileo.
So let me try to be less colorful and more direct:

The academic construct of CRT has some utility as a way of looking at social dynamics... but it is useless and dumb to try to apply it in every day life in any way whatsoever - including incorporating any of the concepts into primary and secondary schooling, workplace training, etc. It does not translate well, and all of the "applied" versions are horrendously insulting and toxic.
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Old 26th May 2021, 05:07 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
So let me try to be less colorful and more direct:

The academic construct of CRT has some utility as a way of looking at social dynamics... but it is useless and dumb to try to apply it in every day life in any way whatsoever - including incorporating any of the concepts into primary and secondary schooling, workplace training, etc. It does not translate well, and all of the "applied" versions are horrendously insulting and toxic.
Okay, that's clear. And while I have little clue about what's in most office anti-racism training, I doubt it's much use. Consider, first, integrated in the Armed Services. They basically throw people in and tell them they have to work together, the end. Can you still find bigots of various stripes, including dangerous ones? Well, yes, and the higher ups should look out for them.'

Second, of course, is sexual harassment prevention training. Weird, cringe-inducing scenes where four horrendously creepy guys hit on the New Hire, the Secretary, and so on - and of course the one creepy woman that hits on the Handsome Young Man as well, because women can do it, too!

That stuff strikes me as mostly designed to avoid lawsuits - which Critical Race Theory is in a good position to discuss, since it's mostly a way to analyse the law. But I repeat my skepticism that it does anything useful to the people who have to sit through it.
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Old 26th May 2021, 06:15 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
DiAngelo's absurd approach is pretty representative of the way CRT is being mutilated and foisted off on people.
I feel like we're missing a step here, the part where we can see which (if any) CRT ideas were absorbed by DiAngelo before being regurgitated as "racial affinity groups," etc.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There's been a lot of fair and level headed criticism of the book white fragility, mostly in regards to what is proposed as a solution. I can see why it is popular as a diversity training program, it proposes exactly the kind of tedious navel gazing and lack of concrete action that Human Resource types must love. It's the kind of training that HR can mandate for employees that checks the right boxes, but doesn't actually meaningfully change how things are done around the workplace.


Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I mean, the major problem (again) is that she's not involved in CRT.


Whenever James Lindsay does a takedown of Robin DiAngelo, neither of them gets close enough to Planet CRT to find their way into a stable orbit.

ETA: Incidentally, I think Lindsay or Pluckrose may have been the first people to mention CRT in my social feeds, and I only know them b/c of one of their co-authors (Boghossian) whom I once met at TAM. So I guess there is a skeptic community connection, sort of.
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Old 26th May 2021, 06:37 PM   #299
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An interesting question--if academia has a topic A... and out of ignorance or opportunism others grab on and start promoting variant B, does it mean topic A is toxic and needs shutting down? Or do we focus on disputing B?
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Old 26th May 2021, 07:21 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
An interesting question--if academia has a topic A... and out of ignorance or opportunism others grab on and start promoting variant B, does it mean topic A is toxic and needs shutting down? Or do we focus on disputing B?
I think it's best to refute people by quoting their own words and interpreting those words in the most sensible possible way, even if that involves strengthening the argument originally provided. This goes for both A and B, IMO.
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Old 26th May 2021, 09:21 PM   #301
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CRT is nothing less than the next iteration of Cultural Marxism, seeking to update and replace the class struggle narrative with the more powerful and manipulative race struggle narrative. It attempts to formalize and propagate identity politics, which was for at least a generation taught to university students, and is now gaining traction in K-12 for a younger audience with uncritical minds.

This ideology, much like woke culture, Black Lives Matter, ANTIFA, and socialism itself, is endorsed by the largest banks and corporations in the US, and provides a false narrative to explain the systematic economic destruction of the west by elite financiers who have a vested interest in the fiat money, fractional reserve banking system that is the actual cause of the immense wealth disparity in the US, not racism.

This process was described by Lenin, as paraphrased by John Maynard Keynes:

Quote:
By a continuing process of inflation governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens. By this method, they not only confiscate, but they confiscate arbitrarily; and, while the process impoverishes many, it actually enriches some. The sight of this arbitrary rearrangement of riches strikes not only at security but at confidence in the equity of the existing distribution of wealth.

As the inflation proceeds and the real value of the currency fluctuates wildly from month to month, all permanent relations between debtors and creditors, which form the ultimate foundation of capitalism, become so utterly disordered as to be almost meaningless; and the process of wealth-getting degenerates into a gamble and a lottery.

Lenin was certainly right. There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose.
Hyperinflated and overvalued stock and bond markets, stock buybacks, cryptocurrency speculation, real estate speculation - these are the only ways to get ahead in the United States in 2021, certainly not hard work or merit. It's crucial that these people program the general population to accept the systemic racism scapegoat, so that the actual culprits are not blamed.

CRT, and the 1619 project should be actively opposed, and frankly anyone who can afford to homeschool or remove their children from public school indoctrination should certainly do so at this point. Unfortunately, many people can't afford to do this.
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Old 26th May 2021, 09:54 PM   #302
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Translation: everything I disagree with is a communist plot.
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Old 26th May 2021, 10:00 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Translation: everything I disagree with is a communist plot.
Actually, virtually everything about CRT is divisive, false, and un-American. And communist plots do exist, and sometimes even succeed. All you have to do is read history, and learn about the Bolshevik revolution, and the Chinese Cultural Revolution, which both parallel what is happening now. If you really believe that systemic racism exists, or that racism is a serious problem in the US, you're delusional, and a victim of media selection bias. Even the militarized police problem, which has more white victims than black victims overall, has been politicized and infected by identity politics, and so actually prevents reforms that need to be made by forcing Republicans to essentially choose between Marxism, or not having police reform.
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Old 26th May 2021, 11:10 PM   #304
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Cool story, bro.
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Old 26th May 2021, 11:49 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I feel like you really missed my point here...



So let me try to be less colorful and more direct:

The academic construct of CRT has some utility as a way of looking at social dynamics... but it is useless and dumb to try to apply it in every day life in any way whatsoever - including incorporating any of the concepts into primary and secondary schooling, workplace training, etc. It does not translate well, and all of the "applied" versions are horrendously insulting and toxic.
In my somewhat limited sociology course we had to do as part of medical training we did a bit on models such as gender theory and critical race theory. The Prof teaching was very clear, these are tools (she used the word peepholes) to understand social interactions. One tool may be right for one job, but not another. You can analyse the same system using different models and gain differing insights. The problem arises with proponents who believe that their own favoured model is the only one to deliver true insight. A good social science researcher will use the best model for the question asked.

If you are interested in improving outcomes for ethnic minority students then analysing the education system using CRT will help. If you want to improve outcomes for white working class boys it is unlikely to help.

There is nothing wrong with CRT, it is the application that may be problematic and some people adopt an almost religious belief in their favoured model, social scientists can be as vicious in defence of their preferred model as e.g. theoretical physicists arguing the virtues of string theory versus QCD (and equally incomprehensible!).
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Old 27th May 2021, 12:44 AM   #306
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Whew, well here's a doozy. Well, I don't think this person has any idea what these buzzrodds and codes are.

Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
CRT is nothing less than the next iteration of Cultural Marxism, seeking to update and replace the class struggle narrative with the more powerful and manipulative race struggle narrative.
Highlighted: thinly-veiled code for "the Jews", popularized by Neo-Nazis, and derived from "Cultural Bolshevism" from the predecessors of the Neo-Nazis, the Nazis.

Quote:
It attempts to formalize and propagate identity politics, which was for at least a generation taught to university students, and is now gaining traction in K-12 for a younger audience with uncritical minds.
Highlighted: Anyone but cis straight Christian while men working together for equal treatment.

Quote:
This ideology, much like woke culture, Black Lives Matter, ANTIFA, and socialism itself, is endorsed by the largest banks and corporations in the US, and provides a false narrative to explain the systematic economic destruction of the west by elite financiers who have a vested interest in the fiat money, fractional reserve banking system that is the actual cause of the immense wealth disparity in the US, not racism.
Highlighted: Woke Culture: literally, "aware of and opposed to racists culture" - a mangled phrase taken from the old AAVE phrase "stay woke!", typically meaning "stay aware of the racism". Note that few refer to themselves as "woke" - it's like complimenting one's own fragrance. Also note that were I to say "Man, R. Kelly used to call himself the Pied Piper of R&B, He told you he was a pedophile. Stay woke!" as @sassycrass once did on Twitter, I mean "look out for pedophiles" instead - the term is flexible.

Black Lives Matter: a loose network of activist groups that, in theory, advocate for police reform, better schools in black communities, and so forth

Antifa: literally "antifacscist", anyone who actively opposes fascism. Could also refer to groups that violently oppose neo-Nazis and other fascist groups.

Why is BLM endorsed by banks? Because they think doing so is goof for advertising, same as every other company that endorses BLM, LGBT Pride, and the like. They won't *do* anything expensive about it, of course. Note that modern banks don't care for antifa (although I suppose they're antifa, in that they like violent pro-bigotry groups like...fascists), socialism (which actually can and often does critique modern banking and modern capitalism in general), "woke culture" (which isn't a coherent phrase) or CRT (an academic field - imagine Bank of America endorsing the Standard Theory or Germ Theory)

Quote:
CRT, and the 1619 project should be actively opposed, and frankly anyone who can afford to homeschool or remove their children from public school indoctrination should certainly do so at this point. Unfortunately, many people can't afford to do this.
Highlighted: the 1619 Project is a series of history essays that posits that the US begins when the black people begin appearing in the US, and looks at US history in the context of the group that will become Black Americans*. It includes essays on the highway system, democracy itself, medicine, and so forth. No reason not to teach it at the high school level as part of a robust history class. Also has little or nothing to do with anything else highlighted above. The main objection is "historians do not all agree with it in every way", which isn't a shock for a series of history essays, many written by historians or experts in relevant fields.

In short, yeah, that was a lot of word salad, with not much of substance.

*I'm not having the whole "is 'black' capitalized" argument here, take it to that other thread where I can watch y'all argue with amusemeeee-I mean can ignore it. Agatha wink
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Old 27th May 2021, 07:55 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Translation: everything I disagree with is a communist plot.
There is actually a connection between CRT and Marxism.
Critical Theory in general developed from the Frankfurt school of Marxism.
CRT in part developed out of critical theory.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/critical-race-theory

The connections are fairly clear, the rhetoric is quite similar. Just to a word search for class and replace it with race. Of course, that has no more significance than that some police forces in the US developed out of slave patrols.

I do love the Antifa just means antifacist reasoning, same for anti-racist.

And BLM, who would be against that, but is a collection of loosely affiliated groups, including self described marxists who kind of appear to be grifters. And yes, marxists are bad, just look at all they have accomplished in the world. Those were no true marxists I imagine.

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Old 27th May 2021, 08:57 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post

Highlighted: thinly-veiled code for "the Jews", popularized by Neo-Nazis, and derived from "Cultural Bolshevism" from the predecessors of the Neo-Nazis, the Nazis.
I am neither a Nazi, nor a Neo-Nazi, nor do I hate jewish people, nor is everyone who disagrees with you, or criticizes "critical race theory" a Nazi. Attack the argument, not the arguer.

Quote:

Highlighted: Anyone but cis straight Christian while men working together for equal treatment.
Anyone who is not "cisgender", that is to say, that their "gender identity" does not conform to their sex which is determined a few weeks after conception, is suffering a form of mental illness. The fact that this illness was removed from the DSM in 2013 for political reasons, is not evidence that this is any less of an illness than body dysphoria, which can also result in extreme body modifications including but not limited to self-amputation. There is not much evidence that these people are treated "unequally", especially in the eyes of the law, yet this tiny bleating minority that represents as little as 0.6% of the population has the lofty goals of overturning public bathroom convention, and the use of sex pronouns in the English language.

The reality is that identity politics is much bigger than transgender, and the purpose is to exploit the natural human tendency towards tribalism for the purpose of nothing less than political revolution.

Quote:

Black Lives Matter: a loose network of activist groups that, in theory, advocate for police reform, better schools in black communities, and so forth
Here is a video documenting the founders of Black Lives Matter describing themselves as "trained Marxists".

Note that I'm not claiming that all or even most people who associate with BLM are Marxists. "Black Lives Matter" is effectively two things, it's an axiom that reflects a truth that should be self-evident, but it is also a specific organization with a specific political goal that is couched under the banner of fighting racial injustice.

This tactic is similar to the self-use of the term "progressive" to describe leftists. If one opposes "progressivism", does that mean that one oppose progress itself? Many people aren't capable or inclined to make these kinds of distinctions, and this sets a dangerous precedent. I wouldn't even describe this tactic as "Communist", I would describe it as Machiavellian.

Quote:

Antifa: literally "antifacscist", anyone who actively opposes fascism. Could also refer to groups that violently oppose neo-Nazis and other fascist groups.
Here we have the same tactic used in reverse. Instead of cloaking a political agenda in the guise of a slogan that no rational, compassionate person can rightfully disagree with, we have a negative assertion which opposes "fascism". Who could possibly disagree with anyone who opposes fascism? It's almost as if criticizing such an organization makes you a fascist by default, and all they need do is designate anyone who criticizes them a fascist. The truth, is that "anti-fascists" have far more in common with fascists and nazis than the vast majority of the people that they confront violently in public.
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Old 27th May 2021, 10:17 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
I am neither a Nazi, nor a Neo-Nazi, nor do I hate jewish people, nor is everyone who disagrees with you, or criticizes "critical race theory" a Nazi.
I don't care what you think - and frankly, I have no idea what you were thinking when you wrote all that. You're did use a Neo-Nazi code phrase that means "the Jews", though. Not my fault if you choose words haphazardly and end up with a bunch of jibber jabber.

Quote:
Attack the argument, not the arguer.
"Conservative block ancestor smart differ lot judge ban photocopy biscuit."
Attack this argument please.

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Old 27th May 2021, 10:34 AM   #310
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Quote:
I don't care what you think - and frankly, I have no idea what you were thinking when you wrote all that. You're did use a Neo-Nazi code phrase that means "the Jews", though. Not my fault if you choose words haphazardly and end up with a bunch of jibber jabber.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
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Old 27th May 2021, 12:55 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Okay, that's clear. And while I have little clue about what's in most office anti-racism training, I doubt it's much use. Consider, first, integrated in the Armed Services. They basically throw people in and tell them they have to work together, the end. Can you still find bigots of various stripes, including dangerous ones? Well, yes, and the higher ups should look out for them.'

Second, of course, is sexual harassment prevention training. Weird, cringe-inducing scenes where four horrendously creepy guys hit on the New Hire, the Secretary, and so on - and of course the one creepy woman that hits on the Handsome Young Man as well, because women can do it, too!

That stuff strikes me as mostly designed to avoid lawsuits - which Critical Race Theory is in a good position to discuss, since it's mostly a way to analyse the law. But I repeat my skepticism that it does anything useful to the people who have to sit through it.
On that last bit, we are in complete agreement.

I don't think it does anything to avoid lawsuits either. Or at least, I can't see how it would possibly do so. It really seems more like the bastardized version being peddled by grifting idiots is more a matter of corporate virtue signaling than anything else.
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Old 27th May 2021, 03:28 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post

............ and frankly anyone who can afford to homeschool or remove their children from public school indoctrination should certainly do so at this point. Unfortunately, many people can't afford to do this.
We've found that simply educating our high school age child about indoctrination into work culture has sufficed. So far there's been no problems with the school but there have been problems with other students who've got SJW and can't contain themselves.

For example. While analyzing the lyrics to the some Summer Nights from Grease and trying to determine who was telling the truth, one student blurted out " I wouldn't trust either of them because they're white".

We've told our kid to treat these other students, a small but very vocal minority like they would religious fanatics and give them a wide berth.

What kind of weirdo proudly stand up in class and announces "I have two moms and six sisters and I'm proud to say that I have no men in my life at all" ? Avoid at all costs.
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Old 27th May 2021, 03:37 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
What kind of weirdo proudly stand up in class and announces "I have two moms and six sisters and I'm proud to say that I have no men in my life at all" ?
My only response to that ends up being "well, I sure hope you turn out to be a lesbian then"
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Old 27th May 2021, 03:45 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
We've found that simply educating our high school age child about indoctrination into work culture has sufficed. So far there's been no problems with the school but there have been problems with other students who've got SJW and can't contain themselves.

For example. While analyzing the lyrics to the some Summer Nights from Grease and trying to determine who was telling the truth, one student blurted out " I wouldn't trust either of them because they're white".
That's... disturbing.

Quote:

We've told our kid to treat these other students, a small but very vocal minority like they would religious fanatics and give them a wide berth.

What kind of weirdo proudly stand up in class and announces "I have two moms and six sisters and I'm proud to say that I have no men in my life at all" ? Avoid at all costs.
The problem with this approach is that after a generation of indoctrination with this curriculum, it will be your child who will be a voiceless minority, and there will be far more demanded of them than a "wide berth". It will probably occur much faster than in one generation, at this rate.
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Old 27th May 2021, 04:45 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post

The problem with this approach is that after a generation of indoctrination with this curriculum, it will be your child who will be a voiceless minority, and there will be far more demanded of them than a "wide berth". It will probably occur much faster than in one generation, at this rate.
It still remains to be seen how successful they'll be. I expect him to make it through high school relatively unscathed. So far people living with SJW appear to be a minority IRL, I've only known two who had it bad and one guy actually dialed it way back because he said he was losing to many friends.

I have no objections to teaching accurate history, what happened happened there's nothing anybody can do about but if the school starts serving up a heaping plate of guilt with their lessons then I'll be scheduling a meeting with the principal.
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Old 27th May 2021, 06:09 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Highlighted: the 1619 Project is a series of history essays that posits that the US begins when the black people begin appearing in the US, and looks at US history in the context of the group that will become Black Americans
The first documented instance of enslaved African individuals in the future continental United States took place around 90 years prior to 1619.

(Puerto Rico saw the beginnings of slave trade even earlier, but Americans tend not to think of PR as part of the history of the U.S.)

I remain uncertain as to whether the 1619 Project draws significantly on theories from CRT, aside from the basic idea that racism is pervasive and systemic in American history and culture.
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Old 27th May 2021, 08:15 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The first documented instance of enslaved African individuals in the future continental United States took place around 90 years prior to 1619.

(Puerto Rico saw the beginnings of slave trade even earlier, but Americans tend not to think of PR as part of the history of the U.S.)

I remain uncertain as to whether the 1619 Project draws significantly on theories from CRT, aside from the basic idea that racism is pervasive and systemic in American history and culture.
When did the Africans first enslave other Africans? When did the Muslims first enslave Africans? When did the Brazilians first enslave Africans? When did indigenous Canadians enslave other Canadians and also Africans? When did the Qins, Hans, and Tangs enslave other Chinese? When did the Greeks and Romans enslave their conquests? When did the Mongols enslave their captives? When did the Vikings enslave their European conquests (other caucasians, lol).

This is by no means a comprehensive list. Why are leftists who reside in the most progressive and one of the freest countries in the world, and the history of the world, get so triggered by the false idea that slavery was somehow unique to evil caucasians, and the United States, and that systemic racism is a thing in 2021? For the same reason that people believe all kinds of other ridiculous ********, and because the ultimate sponsors of communism, namely elite bankers, need to sell this narrative in order to overthrow the greatest country in the world.
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Old 27th May 2021, 09:26 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
When did the Africans first enslave other Africans? When did the Muslims first enslave Africans? When did the Brazilians first enslave Africans? When did indigenous Canadians enslave other Canadians and also Africans? When did the Qins, Hans, and Tangs enslave other Chinese? When did the Greeks and Romans enslave their conquests? When did the Mongols enslave their captives? When did the Vikings enslave their European conquests (other caucasians, lol).

This is by no means a comprehensive list. Why are leftists who reside in the most progressive and one of the freest countries in the world, and the history of the world, get so triggered by the false idea that slavery was somehow unique to evil caucasians, and the United States, and that systemic racism is a thing in 2021? For the same reason that people believe all kinds of other ridiculous ********, and because the ultimate sponsors of communism, namely elite bankers, need to sell this narrative in order to overthrow the greatest country in the world.
Highlighted term: "triggers" refers to things that set off panic attacks often related to PTSD - For example, combat veterans who have panic attacks set of by explosions such as fireworks, or sexual assault victims that are set off by depictions of other sexual assaults. Again, a random term thrown in incorrectly.

I find it strange that a discussion of US history is, according to you, supposed to also discuss African tribes, Mongolians, and Vikings. You're free to justify it if you can, of course, but I suspect that this is nothing more than another mistake on your part.
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Old 27th May 2021, 09:41 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
This is by no means a comprehensive list. Why are leftists who reside in the most progressive and one of the freest countries in the world, and the history of the world, get so triggered by the false idea that slavery was somehow unique to evil caucasians, and the United States, and that systemic racism is a thing in 2021? For the same reason that people believe all kinds of other ridiculous ********, and because the ultimate sponsors of communism, namely elite bankers, need to sell this narrative in order to overthrow the greatest country in the world.
No-one thinks that the United States has a monopoly on the history of slavery. But that is irrelevant to a discussion on race relations in the United States.
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Old 27th May 2021, 09:42 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Highlighted term: "triggers" refers to things that set off panic attacks often related to PTSD - For example, combat veterans who have panic attacks set of by explosions such as fireworks, or sexual assault victims that are set off by depictions of other sexual assaults. Again, a random term thrown in incorrectly.
Thank you Mumbles. This is an annoyance of mine, too.
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