IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags police incidents , police issues , police misconduct charges

Reply
Old 29th April 2021, 04:36 AM   #1
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,134
The behaviour of US police officers - part 2

Someone had mentioned that there needs to be laws in order to deal with the specific issue of police brutality.

Perhaps not, seems we just need a willingness to prosecute under existing laws.

Chauvin and his three accomplices have just been charged by the feds for criminal civil rights violations.

Quote:
Leading up to Derek Chauvin's murder trial, Justice Department officials had spent months gathering evidence to indict the ex-Minneapolis police officer on federal police brutality charges, but they feared the publicity frenzy could disrupt the state's case.

So they came up with a contingency plan: If Chauvin were found not guilty on all counts or the case ended in a mistrial, they would arrest him at the courthouse, according to sources familiar with the planning discussions.
https://www.startribune.com/feds-pla.../?refresh=true

Seems that this logic could probably apply to any case of police excessive force. While violent crime is often a matter covered by state law, brutality by police is arguably always a federal issue if you look through the lens of civil rights.

I'm guessing that a federal conviction is only going to be a cherry on top though. The bulk of punishment potential comes for the violent crime law itself, which is handled at the state level.

It's noteworthy that Chauvin, in addition to murder of Floyd, is also facing a criminal civil rights indictment for an unrelated incident where he brutalized a 14 year old boy.

Quote:
Prosecutors want to indict Chauvin in connection to two cases: for pinning Floyd down by his neck for more than 9 ½ minutes in May 2020, and for the violent arrest of a 14-year-old boy in 2017. In the latter case, Chauvin struck the teen on the head with his flashlight, then grabbed him by the throat and hit him again, according to court documents.
A much more common story of police abuse. Presumably, many common incidents of police brutality could be pursued by the DOJ. Seems likely that only high profile examples will get this special treatment.

Mod InfoThread continued from here.

You can quote or reply to any post in that thread here.
Posted By:zooterkin
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by zooterkin; 30th April 2021 at 09:13 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th April 2021, 05:12 AM   #2
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,134
Killer cop gets another job as a cop even as criminal investigation into the killing is still open. Treating police brutality as a HR problem is never going to work.



Quote:
The Tigard police officer who shot and killed Jacob Macduff on Jan. 6 has been hired by the Port of Portland Police Department despite an ongoing criminal investigation. He started work at the agency April 19, though the port placed him on leave this week after OPB published this story.
https://www.opb.org/article/2021/04/...investigation/
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 29th April 2021 at 05:13 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th April 2021, 05:15 AM   #3
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Killer cop gets another job as a cop even as criminal investigation into the killing is still open. Treating police brutality as a HR problem is never going to work.





https://www.opb.org/article/2021/04/...investigation/
Sounds like the kind of guy they wanted.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th April 2021, 05:58 AM   #4
Armitage72
Philosopher
 
Armitage72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 6,412
Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
It's amazing, the disconnect from reality some of them have.

"When I was a kid, I always wanted to be a cop, so I could drive real fast and shoot the bad guys! I didn't expect all these rules!"

Most people grow up and realize their childish notions of adult roles need to be shaken off when they actually perform these roles, while some idiots still seem to act like 12 year-olds.

It reminds me a little of a guy I saw on the news back when the Reserves were first being activated and sent to the Middle East.
"I joined the Reserves to earn money for college, not to fight."

Give me the perks without the responsibilities.
Armitage72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th April 2021, 07:36 AM   #5
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,134
Nazi cop pleads guilty to owning illegal firearms.

Quote:
A former deputy with the Wilkinson County Sheriff's Office could spend 10 years in prison for possessing an unregistered firearm.

The US Attorney's Office for the Middle District of Georgia said Wednesday that 28-year-old Cody Richard Griggers, of Laurens County, pleaded guilty before a US District Judge to one count of possessing an unregistered firearm.


They said Griggers said in the group chat that he was manufacturing and acquiring illegal firearms, explosives, and suppressors. Griggers also made racially motivated violent statements including using racial slurs, slurs against gay people, and commonly made positive references to the Nazi Holocaust.
https://wgxa.tv/news/local/former-mi...es-prison-time
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 29th April 2021 at 07:51 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th April 2021, 07:47 AM   #6
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Nazi cop pleads guilty to owning illegal firearm.



https://wgxa.tv/news/local/former-mi...es-prison-time
To Protect and to Serve.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th April 2021, 08:20 AM   #7
lobosrul5
Master Poster
 
lobosrul5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,658
Just heard on CNN that body cam video of the Brown killing will not be released, cannot find a link. I assume the federal DOJ can override that at some point, but I don't know for sure.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 29th April 2021 at 08:21 AM.
lobosrul5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th April 2021, 08:25 AM   #8
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 51,733
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Just heard on CNN that body cam video of the Brown killing will not be released, cannot find a link. I assume the federal DOJ can override that at some point, but I don't know for sure.
I heard they are going to release it but only after the investigation. Maybe try and get ahead by already charging the officers when people can see exactly how egregious it is?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th April 2021, 08:49 AM   #9
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,134
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Nazi cop pleads guilty to owning illegal firearms.



https://wgxa.tv/news/local/former-mi...es-prison-time

Same cop bragged to his nazi friends about beating up black people and disenfranchising black voters with false felony convictions.


Quote:
A former Middle Georgia sheriff’s deputy bragged in text messages with members of an alleged extremist group that he had beaten a Black person he arrested and planned to charge Black Georgians with felonies to keep them from voting, according to an FBI affidavit.
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/na...251004169.html
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 29th April 2021 at 08:51 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th April 2021, 09:40 AM   #10
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,134
Quote:
Policing Is Not Broken, It’s ‘Literally Designed to Work in This Way’
Jane Coaston debates three proposals to fix America’s broken policing.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/28/o...owTranscript=1

NYTimes says ACAB. You love to see it.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th April 2021, 07:50 AM   #11
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 23,493
Meanwhile in the UK

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...droidApp_Other

Merseyside Police arrested and charged the four cops
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th April 2021, 08:42 AM   #12
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 13,437
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Meanwhile in the UK

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...droidApp_Other

Merseyside Police arrested and charged the four cops
I started a UK police thread here;

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=329377
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st May 2021, 11:51 AM   #13
Ryokan
Insert something funny here
 
Ryokan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Norway
Posts: 10,479
Remember the Loveland, Colorado police who used excessive force to arrest a 73 year old woman with dementia?

I called it one of the most horrible and heartbreaking things I've seen.

But, Jesus ******* Christ, that case actually got worse!

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


They're bragging and laughing about it, with the woman injured and in handcuffs just a few meters away.

How can this happen? How can these people be employed as police officers?

Last edited by Ryokan; 1st May 2021 at 11:58 AM.
Ryokan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st May 2021, 01:24 PM   #14
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 24,379
Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Remember the Loveland, Colorado police who used excessive force to arrest a 73 year old woman with dementia?

I called it one of the most horrible and heartbreaking things I've seen.

But, Jesus ******* Christ, that case actually got worse!

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


They're bragging and laughing about it, with the woman injured and in handcuffs just a few meters away.

How can this happen? How can these people be employed as police officers?
When the city is done firing the three morons, they need to fire their chief, ask for a DOJ investigation and bring in an outside review board.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st May 2021, 04:30 PM   #15
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,671
Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Remember the Loveland, Colorado police who used excessive force to arrest a 73 year old woman with dementia?

I called it one of the most horrible and heartbreaking things I've seen.

But, Jesus ******* Christ, that case actually got worse!

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


They're bragging and laughing about it, with the woman injured and in handcuffs just a few meters away.

How can this happen? How can these people be employed as police officers?
They've resigned or been fired. Guess the news story takes a while to get across the pond.

Three Colorado police officers no longer employed after arrest of 73-year-old woman with dementia
Quote:
Officers Austin Hopp, Tyler Blackett and Daria Jalali were placed on administrative leave over the incident, along with Sgt. Phillip Metzler. Another sergeant, Antolina Hill, was reassigned.

Loveland Police Chief Robert Ticer said at a news conference Friday that Hopp, Blackett and Jalali "are no longer employed" with the department but declined to specify whether they resigned or were terminated.

It's unclear why Metzler and Hill were not among those no longer with the department.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd May 2021, 01:39 AM   #16
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 23,493
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
They've resigned or been fired. Guess the news story takes a while to get across the pond.

Three Colorado police officers no longer employed after arrest of 73-year-old woman with dementia

As Craig4 says, this is only a symptom of the problems within that police force.

Their culture is obviously vile towards the public and there needs to be a full and deep clensing. Starting at the top, who either approve, don't care, or aren't aware of their subordinates' behaviour even in the office. Ignorance is evidence of incompetence or negligence.

It is hard to believe that such a force wouldn't have many officers who abuse their powers in other ways.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd May 2021, 07:10 AM   #17
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,134
Quote:
Salem police sit by as Proud Boys take over Riverfront Park
Fascists violently ejected people from public park during their unpermitted rally. Cops stand by and do nothing as armed fascists declare public spaces off limits to other citizens.

Gee, wonder why these far-right groups are so emboldened. Cops and Klan, hand in hand.

Quote:
Police came by the house I'm working at and asked me questions. Dude spent the entire time basically trying to ask whether or not I was agitating them. Officer said "It's not normal for them to do that unprovoked, but you're not the first person they've thrown out today." almost verbatim. I don't expect anything to come of it
https://hinessight.blogs.com/salempo...elbDsqIxeo77WI

Quote:
Far-right groups hold gun-rights rally in Oregon park, threaten media

Even though the event included members of a group that sparked violent episodes in Salem, no police were present. The exception being one police helicopter circling the area.
https://www.thecentersquare.com/oreg...97cb46857.html

A similar fascist mob has, in Dec 2020, attacked the Oregon state Capitol assaulting police and threatening violence against state legislators. Strange that police take such a hands off approach to this known lawless element, it's almost as if they tacitly endorse their brand of political violence.

Hard to imagine a left or liberal unpermitted protest being met with such light response by police.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 3rd May 2021 at 07:17 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd May 2021, 07:25 AM   #18
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,134
Quote:
Maine's Chief of Capitol Police retired today after being placed on leave for posting Covid misinfo, election fraud conspiracies and liking the idea of napalming BLM supporters on his now-deleted Facebook page.
https://twitter.com/nathanTbernard/s...97894512128001

Policing is heavily infiltrated by far-right extremism.

Quote:
On July 25, Gauvin expressed sympathy with the views of a former Maine police officer who called for deadly violence against Black Lives Matter protesters and the immediate prosecution of government officials nationwide for “enabling” the demonstrations against police brutality.

“Live rounds, dead Violent felons and RICO convictions of all enabling politicians … will need to commence [within] the next 2 to 3 days in order to permanently eliminate this expanding felony conduct and life/property/taxpayer cost,” wrote Brian Gagan, a former patrol officer who worked for the Westbook and Scarborough police departments and now heads a corporate consulting firm called Leadership Strategies.

“A peaceful solution was preempted beginning on May 26th,” Gagan continued, referring to the day after Floyd’s murder, when the mayor of Minneapolis announced the four officers involved in his death had been fired. “Live rounds are now the most peaceful remaining solution. The next most peaceful is napalm. The great thing is that this criminal idiocy includes people of all skin colors.”
https://mainernews.com/chief-of-main...-conspiracies/
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 3rd May 2021 at 07:26 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd May 2021, 07:40 AM   #19
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Well all this is going to end well...
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th May 2021, 04:55 AM   #20
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,134
Cop openly displaying membership to armed right-wing extremist group will not be fired.

Quote:
An Orange County sheriff’s deputy who wore a patch associated with a right-wing paramilitary group to a Costa Mesa civil rights rally in June won’t be fired.

An internal investigation has determined that 13-year veteran Deputy Russell Sison did not have any racial or extremist views, sheriff’s officials said. Sison, however, will be “held accountable” for wearing an unauthorized patch, and department deputies will receive training on extremist groups, how they operate and the risk they present.
Decorating your official uniform with terrorist regalia is not a firing offense in Orange County.

https://www.ocregister.com/2020/09/0...-keep-his-job/
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th May 2021, 11:52 AM   #21
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,134
Cops have dismally low vaccination rates. Not a surprise given how absolutely infected cop brains are with right wing extremist views.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...fety-concerns/

Fun fact, covid killed more cops in 2020 than all other on-duty causes of death combined.

https://thedaily.case.edu/study-find...uses-combined/
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 01:06 AM   #22
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 8,381
*sigh*

‘We’re terrorized’: LA sheriffs frequently harass families of people they kill, says report

Los Angeles sheriff’s department has routinely retaliated against victims’ relatives who speak out, NLG and ACLU say in report


Quote:
The authors collected detailed accounts of alleged harassment from the families of Paul Rea, an 18-year-old killed during a traffic stop in 2019, and Anthony Vargas, a 21-year-old shot 13 times in 2018. The report, also produced by Black Lives Matter LA and Centro Community Service Organization, alleges:

LASD deputies regularly drive by or park in front of the Rea and Vargas families’ homes and workplaces and at times have taken photos or recorded them for no reason.

Deputies have repeatedly pulled over relatives, searched their cars and detained and arrested them without probable cause, allegedly in retaliation for their protests.

Officers have shown up to vigils and family gatherings, at times mocking and laughing at them or threatening to arrest them, and have also damaged items at memorial sites.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 07:59 AM   #23
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,134
Home surveillance camera catches a cop deliberately damaging a person's car while executing a search warrant.

Quote:
The village police chief says there is an internal investigation into a video that allegedly shows a Massena patrolman intentionally damaging a vehicle while executing a search warrant.
https://www.northcountrynow.com/news...-video-0298641

Video captures the cop deliberately and repeatedly slamming a side garage door into the parked car. Pointless and deliberate vandalism.

https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/s...52753985228807
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 08:02 AM   #24
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 51,733
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Home surveillance camera catches a cop deliberately damaging a person's car while executing a search warrant.



https://www.northcountrynow.com/news...-video-0298641

Video captures the cop deliberately and repeatedly slamming a side garage door into the parked car. Pointless and deliberate vandalism.

https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/s...52753985228807
Here I thought they just slashed the tires when looking for fun.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 08:48 AM   #25
Armitage72
Philosopher
 
Armitage72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 6,412
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Here I thought they just slashed the tires when looking for fun.

According to TV, the usual trick is to pull someone over as they're driving through town.
"You have a broken taillight."
"Where?"
"Right here." (Kick)
Armitage72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 09:50 AM   #26
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Hell.

Might be time to purge those departments and just start over, this time not hiring the school bullies, if possible.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 10:39 AM   #27
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,134
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Hell.

Might be time to purge those departments and just start over, this time not hiring the school bullies, if possible.
Even if you're not someone calling for large defunding or abolishment, I'm not sure any meaningful reform is possible without a pretty significant turnover of current police staff. Not just leadership, but rank and file cops.

The culture of policing, especially in some of these more notorious, large departments, is rotten all the way through. You have cops that have spent their whole careers being shaped by this poison, years and decades of normalizing abuse and contempt for the rule of law.

Sending new, fresh faces into this machine is just bound to produce more of the same. I don't see how meaningful reform is possible without starting from a near blank-slate.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 01:28 PM   #28
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,761
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Hell.

Might be time to purge those departments and just start over, this time not hiring the school bullies, if possible.
I'm as against school bullies as anyone, but I think lumping them in with the unrepentant murderers of the LA County Sheriff's Department is unfair.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th May 2021, 06:23 PM   #29
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 27,223
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Even if you're not someone calling for large defunding or abolishment, I'm not sure any meaningful reform is possible without a pretty significant turnover of current police staff. Not just leadership, but rank and file cops.
It's my impression that at least a portion (not all, of course) of the people who speak in terms of "abolishing" this or that police department, really mean this - that they're not against the theoretical idea of having a police department, but that they believe reform of the currently existing one is simply not feasible; that there is no baby anywhere in that bathwater, and the whole mess needs to be thrown out and something new created entirely from scratch in its place.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2021, 03:18 AM   #30
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 8,888
"It was a case that came as a shock to many across the Cape Fear region. A well-known police lieutenant and youth football coach, criminally charged following an investigation by the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation (SBI). The accusation: that Shaun Appler offered a woman a “free pass” to get out of trouble with Wrightsville Beach Police, in exchange for nude photos or sex.

On Thursday, Appler entered an Alford plea in New Hanover County court... He will now have two convictions for obstruction of justice on his criminal record, and agreed that he would never wear a badge again in North Carolina."

South Carolina is probably OK, though, right?

https://www.wect.com/2021/05/06/vict...pleads-guilty/
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2021, 04:54 AM   #31
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I'm as against school bullies as anyone, but I think lumping them in with the unrepentant murderers of the LA County Sheriff's Department is unfair.
Joking aside, you don't think there is probably a significant overlap between the two groups?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th May 2021, 04:56 AM   #32
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 99,074
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
"It was a case that came as a shock to many across the Cape Fear region. A well-known police lieutenant and youth football coach, criminally charged following an investigation by the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation (SBI). The accusation: that Shaun Appler offered a woman a “free pass” to get out of trouble with Wrightsville Beach Police, in exchange for nude photos or sex.

On Thursday, Appler entered an Alford plea in New Hanover County court... He will now have two convictions for obstruction of justice on his criminal record, and agreed that he would never wear a badge again in North Carolina."

South Carolina is probably OK, though, right?

https://www.wect.com/2021/05/06/vict...pleads-guilty/
Part of the problem the USA has now with plea deals.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2021, 03:12 AM   #33
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 24,379
Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
I used to think that we had a problem with institutional racism in policing. Then, I realized the problem is so much worse than that. The thugs, we're bringing into policing now are also racists. How we screen and select applicants for police jobs and how we promote people needs a complete overhaul.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th May 2021, 07:07 AM   #34
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,761
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Joking aside, you don't think there is probably a significant overlap between the two groups?
I don't. I think police culture is a separate, broken place where people go in decent and end up monsters.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2021, 07:58 AM   #35
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,471
The real problem with U.S. policing:
Quote:
According to a federal survey in 2016, there are more than 12,200 local police departments nationwide, along with another 3,000 sheriff’s offices. And most of those don’t look like the New York Police Department, which employs more officers than Brooklyn Center, in suburban Minneapolis, has residents.

Nearly half of all local police departments have fewer than 10 officers. Three in 4 of the departments have no more than two dozen officers. And 9 in 10 employ fewer than 50 sworn officers. Brooklyn Center, which has 43 officers, and Windsor, which reported a seven-member force, fit comfortably in that majority.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...t-experts-say/

So when we talk about "police," we are talking about many thousands of wildly different agencies, with different standards for hiring, training, supervision and discipline.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2021, 11:29 AM   #36
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 99,074
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The real problem with U.S. policing:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...t-experts-say/

So when we talk about "police," we are talking about many thousands of wildly different agencies, with different standards for hiring, training, supervision and discipline.
However it isn’t the fact you have these very small police forces, there are plenty of examples of “bad apple” events from officers in large urban police forces, employing 1000s if not more.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2021, 01:12 PM   #37
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 23,493
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The real problem with U.S. policing:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...t-experts-say/

So when we talk about "police," we are talking about many thousands of wildly different agencies, with different standards for hiring, training, supervision and discipline.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
However it isn’t the fact you have these very small police forces, there are plenty of examples of “bad apple” events from officers in large urban police forces, employing 1000s if not more.
True but it does make it harder to sort out - as well as reducing oversight.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2021, 01:25 PM   #38
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 23,493
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
True but it does make it harder to sort out - as well as reducing oversight.
I also see that Bob001 and I have been making the same point about sheer number of police forces - and that large forces in the US are also problematic since at least 2015 that I can find...

My first quote is because the UK did have a lot of the issues that the US has. Just as there was a gun culture until well after the First World War - read any Sherlock Holmes story and see how normal it is considered for Dr Watson to have his service revolver. It's obviously fiction, but *that* part wasn't supposed to be the interesting part.


Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yes, I realised that you were adding context in your previous post.

When you post on your experiences of US policing, your posts make me angry. The UK is far from perfect, but in this, and healthcare, it used to make the same mistakes as the US... but it improved.

UK police forces used to be organised at the town level ( according to a close colleague who's the son of a retired police sergeant) but they changed after the Victorian era.

The reason why the UK police were set up as an unarmed force is also relevant. The Peterloo massacre was as a result of using the army against protesters and the outcry was one reason for a civilian force.

Gun control is another - even after the first world war, the UK was a gun culture but it managed to disarm without any loss of freedom, except around guns.

ETA: Homan square and Baltimore were two reasons why I was thinking that scale wouldn't fix all the problems.
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
So that leaves, what? still more than 570 police forces in Missouri?

According to a US DoJ 2008 Census of police forces

there were over 12,000 police forces in the US, with the median size being about ten sworn personnel.
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yes that was my point, I used the US DoJ census which is pretty out of date, but the median force size is just over ten officers:

https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=2216



The smallest UK force is the Civil Nuclear Constabulary, which is rather specialised (and also probably the heaviest armed, as they have used 30mm cannon in the past)
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

Last edited by jimbob; 9th May 2021 at 01:28 PM.
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2021, 02:12 PM   #39
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,471
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
However it isn’t the fact you have these very small police forces, there are plenty of examples of “bad apple” events from officers in large urban police forces, employing 1000s if not more.

The other side of that is that a bad cop in a department of thousands is a tiny percentage compared to the bad cop in a department of two dozen.

The story makes the interesting point that we may hear more about problems with big-city departments because they are in media centers with large legal and advocacy communities. If you are abused by a small-town cop, who you gonna call?
Quote:
“The places you hear the most about might not be the worst places,” Lopez said. “They might be the places with the loudest advocacy groups, the most robust media markets or even just they’re better about sharing their information.”
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th May 2021, 02:23 PM   #40
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 23,493
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The other side of that is that a bad cop in a department of thousands is a tiny percentage compared to the bad cop in a department of two dozen.

The story makes the interesting point that we may hear more about problems with big-city departments because they are in media centers with large legal and advocacy communities. If you are abused by a small-town cop, who you gonna call?
As I said elsewhere - it looks as though Chief Wiggum or even Boss Hawg might be affectionate idealised versions of smalltown cops rather than harsh stereotypes.

And Homan Square (or Baltimore PD) show that even large forces can be utterly out of control - especially with Homan Square. Whole management branches should have been fired for that.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare
https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:50 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.