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Old 24th August 2021, 08:29 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
... As for kids too young to get vaccinated, there's not much to be done. Closing schools and other NPIs just delays things but doesn't change the ultimate result absent Vaccine 2.0 or some yet to be discovered treatment. Rather the focus should be on testing vaccines on lower age groups and doing risk/benefit on them. This is not simple because it takes a really huge number to know as the risk level is so low anyway. But to some degree it can be assessed by collecting and reviewing the extensive data on kids 12-13 then dropping the age in increments given a good benefit/risk profile.
One goal of vaccinating kids under age 12 is to slow the case numbers down so hospitals can handle them. Another is to prevent having to shut the schools down again which apparently is already happening. And another is to prevent kids in schools from amplifying the infection numbers as is a known problem with influenza vaccine.

You vaccinate kids to prevent the spread of infection to others in whom the vaccine has been less effective. Examples in my other post were pertussis, varicella (chicken pox) and influenza. And now that I think about it another argument for making varicella vaccine a routine childhood vaccine was to save the tremendous cost of lost work time adults have staying home to care for kids with chicken pox.
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Old 24th August 2021, 08:29 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
That was to the end of July. The numbers are different now. I am not permitted to reveal them though. Just to show how different, your numbers show 5600-odd cases 1-Jan to 1-Aug. NSW alone has been reporting 600+ new cases per day for a couple of weeks now - it's been in the news, remember? That's over 6000 cases since the start of August. Want to guess how many are kids? And how many of those in ICU now?


FEDERAL Health Department, not state Health Departments. They are a bunch of bureaucratic bean-counters. They don't run hospitals.

You forgot kids with life-threatening diseases and cancer-sufferers, among others. Some of all of those have COVID. They are not mutually exclusive conditions. And paediatric ICU is not unlimited. Under this government, we are scraping to fund hospital facilities generally and paediatric facilities in particular. Gladys used to be our state health minister and she knows this. COVID patients add to the burden on an already stretched ICU capability. So when they are full, we do...what? Which kids do we deny access to ICU first? Toss a coin?

You really are sounding more and more like Bolsanaro. It's just a "little flu", no need to panic. Don't be that guy.

As usual, someone here is wrong... but they will never admit it, they will just double down on wrong

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...ldren/13510302
"Parents are getting worried about what they're reading and hearing about the Delta variant in children.The increased rates of infection are extraordinary - 10-15 times higher than last year in adolescents and younger children.
Yet in Australia so far the rate of childhood and adolescent hospitalisation is low at around 2%.
But overseas there are worrying stories emerging, especially from the Southern United States of a massive surge in delta cases due to low rates of vaccination and mask wearing and a flow through to paediatric intensive care units, some of which are full."
But hey, 984 dead in Australia, 630,000 dead in the US, 4.4 million dead world wide... nothing to panic about.
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Old 24th August 2021, 08:35 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I suspect it was to avoid addressing this discussion in the other thread, 'I know, I'll just start another discussion in another sub-forum.'

Well it hasn't worked has it. He's getting torn a new one here too.
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Old 24th August 2021, 08:39 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Yes there are hotspots of covidiocy.

But overall, the 70-80% figure will be reached in the US.

The question is, do we panic about the hotspots of covidiocy?
I would not bet on that.
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Old 24th August 2021, 08:40 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I guess the big question is: where is the dividing line between a reasonable/rational reaction to the situation (such as mask mandates) and a panic reaction.

True, that's a small number of hospitalized given the total population. But...
- There are also probably thousands of kids who are extremely ill who haven't been hospitalized, and might suffer symptoms of 'long covid' for months.
- At least part of the reason the numbers are so low is that some people ARE taking the risks seriously (by engaging in social distancing, wearing masks, etc.)

There are also people who need to have a hospital bed for other medical emergencies, but cannot get one because they are log-jammed with Covid cases.
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Old 24th August 2021, 08:42 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I would not bet on that.
Why not?

The US is at 62% at least one dose already.

ETA: 51.4% Fully vaxxed.
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Old 24th August 2021, 08:43 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I would not bet on that.

Nor would I. You already have a high percentage of morons (mostly, but not exclusively Republicans) who say they will never get vaccinated against Covid.
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Old 24th August 2021, 08:44 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nor would I. You already have a high percentage of morons (most, but not exclusively Republicans who say they will never get vaccinated against Covid.
Where did you get that (vague) figure?
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Old 24th August 2021, 08:50 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Where did you get that (vague) figure?



Note the purple bars!








The part I find most concerning is the age groups of those who say they will never be vaccinated. If this holds, then as the population ages and old farts like me die off, the vaccinated rate will drop off.
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Old 24th August 2021, 08:51 PM   #50
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Strained hospitals should refuse to treat unvaccinated covidiots. Just lock them up in a parking lot or tent or wherever, and wait.

(Not entirely serious, but tempted in that direction... maybe even actually serious in cases where it's simply either the covidiot or another patient with any other problem but that one)

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Old 24th August 2021, 09:02 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Note the purple bars!





https://www.dropbox.com/s/5bkjx6pzxu...hics.png?raw=1


The part I find most concerning is the age groups of those who say they will never be vaccinated. If this holds, then as the population ages and old farts like me die off, the vaccinated rate will drop off.
That seems to be polling parents asking them about vaccinating their teens.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/educa...itudes-survey/

Not quite what I was asking.

Now Trump has gone public supporting vaccines, the rate might improve.
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Old 24th August 2021, 09:13 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
That seems to be polling parents asking them about vaccinating their teens.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/educa...itudes-survey/

Not quite what I was asking.

You think parents are going to vax themselves but never their kids, or vice versa?


Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Now Trump has gone public supporting vaccines, the rate might improve.

I sure hope so, but it not a bet I would take


Judging by the way he was booed in Alabama, its going to fall on deaf ears. Those morons will, of course, justify that to themselves by claiming "He was only saying that to get the Libruls and RINOs off his back, he didn't really mean it"
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Old 24th August 2021, 09:30 PM   #53
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Orphia Nay

Here is something more definitive. Its a month old, but will still hold true

https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden...dd5b8249f0e477

"Among American adults who have not yet received a vaccine, 35% say they probably will not, and 45% say they definitely will not, according to a poll from The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research. Just 3% say they definitely will get the shots, though another 16% say they probably will."


The date of the article is 24 July 2021, so if we look at the vaccination rate data on that date...
https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavir...accine-tracker

...we see that 1 dose was 56.8% and fully vaccinated was 49.2%
Taking the 56.8% figure (because its unlikely that people who got the first shot would not get the second) we see that 43.2% were unvaccinated on that date.

45% of 43.2% is 19.4% who say the definitely won't
35% of 43.2% is 15.1% who say the probably won't


I think you will struggle to reach that 70-80% level
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Old 24th August 2021, 09:37 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
We accept risk as a feature of life. We don't enforce cars to drive at 10 mph so nobody gets killed, we don't stop selling fatty foods that cause immense numbers of early deaths, and we don't cut down all the trees in case a kid falls out of it.
You are conflating societal risk with individual risk. As a society any risk of death from all of these things is unacceptable, and we continue to make advances towards lowering those risks to zero while considering the individual's right to choose to take a risk.

We are lowering speed limits, with 30km/k now being quite common in cities and 80km/h around the fringes of large cities. Further, we work on cars that are safer for both the occupants and those around them, with the ultimate goal being autonomous cars that will result in an "as close to 0 death toll as we can possibly get".

We are putting pressure on companies that provide foods full of fats and sugars to make their products more healthy. Look at how the McDonald's menu has changed in just the last few years, and who would have thought that BK would have not one, but two fake meat burgers on their menu?

You might also notice the extent to which the previous governments in NZ have worked towards making the country smoke-free to eliminate deaths from smoking-related diseases.

And just for a point of interest, we do tend to have methods to deal with trees that are a climbing hazard for kids.

We also provide free flu vaccinations for people that are vulnerable to the flu in an effort to stop flu deaths each year. Imagine what we could do on that front if people were willing to actually wear a mask when they had a cold or flu!

Quote:
If you're saying the only number of acceptable deaths from Covid is zero, then please explain why other deaths don't matter as much.
They do matter, that is why we have huge amounts of money and effort spent on trying to solve those other problems rather than people just throwing up their hands and saying, "Meh, 50 dead kids is fine. We're all good here."
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Old 24th August 2021, 09:45 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
That seems to be polling parents asking them about vaccinating their teens.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/educa...itudes-survey/

Not quite what I was asking.

Now Trump has gone public supporting vaccines, the rate might improve.
Uninsured under 65 have teens? Health conditions, ages 50-64... no that isn't about parents of teens.

This has been all over the news here Orphia. It's not an obscure fact.

As for Dump, he said people should get vaccinated, the crowd booed and he added 'if you want to' or something like that. He's not out there promoting vaccinations.
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Old 24th August 2021, 10:05 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You vaccinate kids to prevent the spread of infection to others in whom the vaccine has been less effective. Examples in my other post were pertussis, varicella (chicken pox) and influenza. And now that I think about it another argument for making varicella vaccine a routine childhood vaccine was to save the tremendous cost of lost work time adults have staying home to care for kids with chicken pox.
I see this as an effective strategy to drive Rt below 0 and get it down to insignificance. But I don't think this works as well if it's endemic and it continues to circulate month after month, year after year, infecting those whose immunity has waned. If it's endemic, almost everyone is going to get exposed to it. Delta may even have an R0 > 1 amongst vaccinated. The vaccine people should be working overtime to test boosters on folks over 50 and get data on efficacy. Delta should shorten the time and numbers needed.

Vaccines have brought it from a pretty dangerous virus to more in line with a bad flu.
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Old 24th August 2021, 10:13 PM   #57
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To clarify about Trump being pro-vaccine:

"“But I recommend — take the vaccines,” he said. “I did it, it’s good.”

A small chorus of boos followed that endorsement."

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...rza-story.html

Are people panicking when they extrapolate "a small chorus" to "many"?
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Old 24th August 2021, 10:39 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
I see this as an effective strategy to drive Rt below 0 and get it down to insignificance. But I don't think this works as well if it's endemic and it continues to circulate month after month, year after year, infecting those whose immunity has waned. If it's endemic, almost everyone is going to get exposed to it. Delta may even have an R0 > 1 amongst vaccinated. The vaccine people should be working overtime to test boosters on folks over 50 and get data on efficacy. Delta should shorten the time and numbers needed.

Vaccines have brought it from a pretty dangerous virus to more in line with a bad flu.
The thing is that it doesn't have to be endemic. It's only going that way because people have thrown their hands in the air and surrendered. Imagine if that had been our response to Smallpox.
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Old 24th August 2021, 10:49 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
I see this as an effective strategy to drive Rt below 0 and get it down to insignificance. But I don't think this works as well if it's endemic and it continues to circulate month after month, year after year, infecting those whose immunity has waned. If it's endemic, almost everyone is going to get exposed to it. Delta may even have an R0 > 1 amongst vaccinated. The vaccine people should be working overtime to test boosters on folks over 50 and get data on efficacy. Delta should shorten the time and numbers needed.

Vaccines have brought it from a pretty dangerous virus to more in line with a bad flu.

The fact is that vaccinated people are very unlikely to get seriously ill or die, so WITH VACCINATION, then yes, this really does become a virus under control.


However, the problem with morons is they see a headline that says 131 Vaccinated People Catch Covid and Die, and they go "OMG!! OMG!! There, see? It doesn't protect you!!!"

They say this because they are too ******* stupid and ignorant to look past the headline. If they did, they would see that this 131 people were only 0.003% of fully vaccinated people, and 0.8% of the breakthrough cases.
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Old 24th August 2021, 10:53 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The thing is that it doesn't have to be endemic. It's only going that way because people have thrown their hands in the air and surrendered. Imagine if that had been our response to Smallpox.
...a vaccine that is estimated to have saved 150-200 million lives.


https://ourworldindata.org/smallpox#...ox-eradication
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Old 24th August 2021, 11:13 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
I see this as an effective strategy to drive Rt below 0 and get it down to insignificance. But I don't think this works as well if it's endemic and it continues to circulate month after month, year after year, infecting those whose immunity has waned. If it's endemic, almost everyone is going to get exposed to it. Delta may even have an R0 > 1 amongst vaccinated. The vaccine people should be working overtime to test boosters on folks over 50 and get data on efficacy. Delta should shorten the time and numbers needed.

Vaccines have brought it from a pretty dangerous virus to more in line with a bad flu.
Flu is more dangerous than a lot of people think, but I digress.

If you look at the examples we have, schools have been identified as a source that amplifies respiratory infections.

This is how I explain it, over simplified of course: You got a couple kids sick over summer. They go to class and now they infect the other kids. Those kids go home and infect their parents who go to work and infect their coworkers who don't have kids in school. So every fall respiratory infections spread in the whole community.

As for the benefit when the viruses are endemic, that's true for influenza. Now we have all those grandparents who don't get the most robust result from influenza vaccine. Kids do. So by vaccinating kids we protect the elderly who the vaccine doesn't work as well for.

As for the role kids are going to play in the transmission of COVID, we don't really know. It hasn't happened yet that they have a vaccine. It hasn't happened yet that schools are all open. But if we look at influenza there are some parallels. The COVID vaccine doesn't work as well in the elderly and schools are likely to amplify the number of cases.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be working on those boosters. We should also be working on bringing as many of those vaccine resisters around as we can. I think we'll find the core of the COVID antivaxxers is smaller than it might currently appear.

But why can't we do all 3 of those things at once?

When the vaccine first became available, I, like a lot of people, was frustrated trying to find a dose. My son drove 5 hours to another town to get a dose. Trebochet couldn't get one in his county because they kept the minimum age higher than in other counties.

But by the time my son needed his second dose it was available locally. Now you can easily get a vaccine appointment here. So we have enough vaccine and enough places to get it and enough people to give the vaccine.

I think we can do all three of those things here. I can't speak for other countries. But I think there are plenty of reasons to see vaccinating kids as key to interrupting ongoing transmission.

And that's without even getting to the issue these schools can't open with everyone quarantined after exposures.

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Old 24th August 2021, 11:20 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
To clarify about Trump being pro-vaccine:

"“But I recommend — take the vaccines,” he said. “I did it, it’s good.”

A small chorus of boos followed that endorsement."

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...rza-story.html

Are people panicking when they extrapolate "a small chorus" to "many"?
No.

First, no one is panicking.

Second, Dump made one comment at one rally. He's been pushed to say something by people reminding him he should take credit for the vaccine. That's all that matters to him, his own ego. But he isn't exactly out there promoting the vaccine. He hasn't made any ads or public service announcements.

You might be giving him too much credit. The proof will be if anything with these antivaxxers changes. I don't expect much to come of his one comment in one rally.
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Old 24th August 2021, 11:37 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No.

First, no one is panicking.

Second, Dump made one comment at one rally. He's been pushed to say something by people reminding him he should take credit for the vaccine. That's all that matters to him, his own ego. But he isn't exactly out there promoting the vaccine. He hasn't made any ads or public service announcements.

You might be giving him too much credit. The proof will be if anything with these antivaxxers changes. I don't expect much to come of his one comment in one rally.

I'm not giving him any credit. I'm giving a majority of Republicans credit, going by the stats and the crowd.

Don't change the subject to him or his ego.

I was talking about the small number in opposition to his pro-vaccine statement.
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Old 25th August 2021, 12:05 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm not saying we shouldn't be working on those boosters. We should also be working on bringing as many of those vaccine resisters around as we can. I think we'll find the core of the COVID antivaxxers is smaller than it might currently appear.
As I said in another thread, we're dealing with two different groups

The first group are the core anti-vax extremists and are against ALL vacciantion. They are the traditional morons, people like RFK Jr, Ty Bollinger, Erin Elizabeth and Naomi Wolf; the fringe minority of ignorant fools. Their motivation is largely anti-establishment, and anti-government, and they exist across the whole political spectrum from far right to far left. These people and their followers will be almost impossible to turn.

You have a better chance of turning members of the second, much larger group. These are the gullible idiots who hang on Trump's every word, blindly and gleefully eating up the poison being shoved down their throats by the likes of Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham and Alex Jones. This group's motivation is entirely political, and they are near exclusively on the political right to far right. They are really only against the Covid-19 vaccine, and only because their tribal mouthpieces tell them to be. Its all about their "freedumbs" and "triggering the Libz"; this is more important to them that their own lives or the lives of their families.
.
.
.
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Old 25th August 2021, 12:06 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
I'm not giving him any credit. I'm giving a majority of Republicans credit, going by the stats and the crowd.

Don't change the subject to him or his ego.

I was talking about the small number in opposition to his pro-vaccine statement.
Hard to say how many people that voice vote boo included.

I'm not trying to change any subject. You have a different view of the GOP anti COVID vaxxer crowd we are dealing with here than I do. It's completely politicized and it's a mess. Dump is hardly helping with like I said, one comment at one rally.

It might be the news is making it look like the GOP contribution to the problem is overrated. But the GOP has shrunk so that the core of who is still in the party are pro-Dump, anti-reality folks. Perhaps ex-Republicans are who you are referring to.
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Old 25th August 2021, 12:08 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
As I said in another thread, we're dealing with two different groups

The first group are the core anti-vax extremists and are against ALL vacciantion. They are the traditional morons, people like RFK Jr, Ty Bollinger, Erin Elizabeth and Naomi Wolf; the fringe minority of ignorant fools. Their motivation is largely anti-establishment, and anti-government, and they exist across the whole political spectrum from far right to far left. These people and their followers will be almost impossible to turn.

You have a better chance of turning members of the second, much larger group. These are the gullible idiots who hang on Trump's every word, blindly and gleefully eating up the poison being shoved down their throats by the likes of Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham and Alex Jones. Their motivation is entirely political, and they are near exclusively on the political right to far right. They are really only against the Covid-19 vaccine, and only because their tribal mouthpieces tell them to be. Its all about their "freedumbs" and "triggering the Libz"; this is more important to them that their own lives or the lives of their families.
.
.
.
Yep. I agree.
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Old 25th August 2021, 12:43 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Whose opinion?
The OP
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Old 25th August 2021, 12:48 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Sure I do, but it seems you don't, so I've taken a screenshot for you:

http://charman.co.nz/icuoz.PNG



Best you go have a talk to the Australian Government Department of Health, then. They're the one saying it.

And how many kids are in ICU right now from car crashes, falls, and other issues?
An apology is warranted thanks.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/co...2-8b92cf4e42f9

Quote:
A baby at the Royal Children's Hospital aged under three weeks has tested positive to coronavirus as four cases have emerged in a cluster at the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit (NICU).
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Old 25th August 2021, 01:07 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You'll never get one.

(wait for the strawman accusation/ lame excuse)

The suggestion that there were no children in ICU with Covid was never going to be a winner... it would only have been a matter of time before it happened anyway, and this one you posted was back in July
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Old 25th August 2021, 01:39 AM   #70
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"I'm concerned about..."
"PANICKING ARE YOU?"
"No, I said I am concerned, and that I think we should...?"
"PANIC BUY?!?!?"
"No, we should implement..."
"PANIC MEASURES?"
"No. We need to take the virus seriously, ..."
"YOU MEAN WE SHOULD PANIC!!11?!??!eleventy???1?1"
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Old 25th August 2021, 05:13 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Of course it's possible to a weight fears too heavily when doing cost/benefit calcs, but if we're going to talk about those, we have to be quite specific.
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The constant state of panic being encouraged by media and scaredy-cats.
Most of what I've been seeing in the media is encouragement to get vaccinated and take other reasonable measures.

Perhaps there are good examples of panicmongering in mainstream media, but I've not seen them.

ETA: I've seen plenty of panicmongering from the anti-vax side, though.
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Old 25th August 2021, 05:19 AM   #72
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Going down to my local war memorial and asking what all the whining is about, the death toll wasn't that bad.
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Old 25th August 2021, 05:45 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Going down to my local war memorial and asking what all the whining is about, the death toll wasn't that bad.
Bring your own Ouija.
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Old 25th August 2021, 11:15 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It is currently August 24.
And I can only use what's reported when it's reported.

Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Panic doesn't aid the response to the pandemic. And the stress created under these conditions can itself be a detriment to health. But panic will be an unavoidable consequence of any mass crisis.
Ah, someone gets it.

And we should be easing the panic, rather than encouraging it.

Gotta say, I'm very pleased with the responses so far - nothing illustrates my point better than people panicking in a thread about panicking.

I'm gonna highlight this next bit:
________________________________

Covid is with us forever.

It will not be stamped out. It will infect everyone at some stage.

Hopefully, vaccines will continue to protect people from the worst symptoms of the disease.

As the "new normal"* will include Covid as an endemic disease, we should chill and accept it and in the immortal words of Douglas Adams Don't Panic.


*hate the term, but relevant, so I'm using it.
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Old 25th August 2021, 11:19 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nor would I. You already have a high percentage of morons (mostly, but not exclusively Republicans) who say they will never get vaccinated against Covid.
Bingo.
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Old 25th August 2021, 11:20 AM   #76
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When does it stop being a pandemic and is just endemic?
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Old 25th August 2021, 11:30 AM   #77
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"Panic doesn't help!" isn't valid criticism if nobody is actually panicking and you're just classifying "not pretending it doesn't exist" as panicking.

Wearing a mask isn't panicking. Getting the vaccine isn't panicking. Washing your hands isn't panicking. Practicing social distancing isn't panicking.

And getting upset at people who don't do those things and are making the problem worse isn't being "over emotional."

Being furious at anti-vaxxers isn't being "overly emotional," it's being minimally observant and human.

Simply being scared that we're living in the worst pandemic since the Spanish Flu is not "being overly emotional" or "panicking."

What exactly are people doing in response to the pandemic that isn't those things that constitutes "panicking?"

Putting effort into projecting a detached edgelord "Nothing bothers me" glibness persona isn't "not panicking." it's just being a jerk. It doesn't make you better than the people who are bothered by things.

You're not better than us because you think people dying for no reason isn't something to get worked up about.
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Old 25th August 2021, 11:37 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
That was to the end of July. The numbers are different now. I am not permitted to reveal them though.


"I know the truth but can't reveal it.

Sorry mate, I didn't realise we had James Bond in the thread.

Classic.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Want to guess how many are kids? And how many of those in ICU now?
I'm sorry, Mr Bond, that information is confidential and I can't tell you.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
You forgot kids with life-threatening diseases and cancer-sufferers, among others. Some of all of those have COVID. They are not mutually exclusive conditions.
Read the bolded part I just posted, and I'll note it here for you as well:

They're all going to get it at some stage.

I hate to break it to you, but children die every bloody day, and most of them for most idiotic reasons. We had one two days ago run over and killed in his driveway. Children die.


Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
None of those measures are cost effective. There are better approaches.
Ah, so money is more important than lives.

Finally!


Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There were 1900 kids hospitalized and 358 died, pay attention. This is the number of infections in kids (link in the other thread):
You seem to be getting confused. I was the one who noted the number of deaths, and how that 358 is fewer than are murdered by their parents, infinitely fewer than die of being killed in car crashes, and a tenth of kids killed by gunfire.

368 is not a scary number, it's a very. very small number.

Let's do some actual maths here to display the size of the imbalance that is causing panic reactions by so many people.

368 American children. In a population of 73 million kids.

That is 0.0005% of them.

What you and other panickin' Petes want to do is make the other 99.9995% of children screw up their education for one single death out of every 200,000 kids.

But I hate kids...


Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I can't for the life of me understand what you think we are doing that indicates panic.
Happy to unpack that for you.

Pretty simple description from Dictionary.com that I don't believe anyone would disagree with.

n a sudden overwhelming fear, with or without cause, that produces hysterical or irrational behavior, and that often spreads quickly through a group of persons or animals.

Irrational. Note that word.

I see asking (using USA as an example) 76,999,632 kids to do enormous harm to themselves to protect 362 is highly bloody irrational.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Death and harm in whom?

As few kids as possible, and that means I am in favor of vaccinating children as soon as we can. And BTW, the direct damage to kids was only one aspect of the reason to vaccinate kids. I listed others in my reply to you.
Don't be dodging the question.

How many dead children would you consider a good outcome?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I suspect it was to avoid addressing this discussion in the other thread, 'I know, I'll just start another discussion in another sub-forum.'
The hell.

I started it here because - as I have been proven correct - it's a somewhat controversial topic and I don't like the medicine thread being about anything other than the science.

This is clearly a social issue.
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Old 25th August 2021, 11:48 AM   #79
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"You can't map your emotions to my satisfaction on a flowchart of purely mathematical risk/reward graphs."

The person upset that his wife died, the person upset his wife and daughter died, the person upset at the Killing Fields, and the person upset that all organic life is going to end in the eventual heat death of the universe are not having a "Who's being upset the most efficiently?" contest, lest of all one for your benefit.
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Old 25th August 2021, 12:05 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well it hasn't worked has it. He's getting torn a new one here too.


Your dreams aren't being fulfilled, sorry.

What you're seeing is the perfect iteration of what I'm saying - there are people here panicking. I could list them for you, but that's not allowed.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
They do matter, that is why we have huge amounts of money and effort spent on trying to solve those other problems rather than people just throwing up their hands and saying, "Meh, 50 dead kids is fine. We're all good here."
Did not understand the OP, but do tell me what number of kids you think is an acceptable death total for Covid, and how panic responses help the fight.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The thing is that it doesn't have to be endemic.
Wow, do tell!

We already have James Bond in the thread, and now we're joined by Nostradamus!

A Red Letter Day indeed.

In what way will Covid not become endemic?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No.

First, no one is panicking.
Really?

If you go all the way back to the start, I wasn't convinced that it was anything but a Kiwi problem, and a degree of panic here is to be expected when nobody had even thought about Covid for 6 months. Covid was something that happened overseas, like BLM marches, or Premier Football.

Irrational response to a known threat.

I'm seeing plenty of irrational behaviour here.

And I would call the response of NZ and Australian media right now as full-steam-panic mode. Strangely enough the one person down this end of the world who's got it right is on my "three most detested people" list, Scott Morrison.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
An apology is warranted thanks.
Don't be absurd - I quoted the official numbers given by your government, but I will thank you, because you've unintentionally given me some info I wouldn't have noticed, and you've also given a perfect example of what I mean by irrational response.

This is gold:

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
A baby at the Royal Children's Hospital aged under three weeks has tested positive to coronavirus as four cases have emerged in a cluster at the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit (NICU).

The Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) confirmed today two parents, one patient and a healthcare worker had been diagnosed with COVID-19 in the NICU at the hospital.
Hey, I'll give you 6 points for effort, but if you read that carefully, the babies were already in the NICU when they caught it. Geddit? They caught it while there from a parent. They aren't there because of Covid.

Classic.

Do let me know if any of them die of Covid, because I'm picking they won't, even though you couldn't get a much more vulnerable human than a baby in an NICU.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Most of what I've been seeing in the media is encouragement to get vaccinated and take other reasonable measures.

Perhaps there are good examples of panicmongering in mainstream media, but I've not seen them.
You might well be right - America & UK might have moved beyond the panic stage. Outside of the crazy people, things are looking much like UK.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Putting effort into projecting a detached edgelord "Nothing bothers me" glibness persona isn't "not panicking." it's just being a jerk. It doesn't make you better than the people who are bothered by things.

You're not better than us because you think people dying for no reason isn't something to get worked up about.
No, I'm better than you because I read and understand posts before answering, so as not make an idiot of myself.

I've made it abundantly clear that I'm talking about panic response, and you go off on a completely typical nonsense rant against some strawman you wish were participating in the thread. Your posts have nothing to do with what I'm saying.

I must add "edgelord" to my vocabulary - I'd thought people might mistake its meaning, but the regularity you cast it about makes it seem kinda cool.

Thanks for that - at least one thing came out of your irrelevant and ill-consider response.

We now have James Bond, Nostradamus and The Edgelord.

(is it ok if I capitalise the "The" as well? I've always liked that look)
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