IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
View Poll Results: What's Peter Boghossian going to do now?
Get a job at another university because he is an academic who cares about teaching 3 11.11%
Start his own podcast about the Culture Wars 6 22.22%
Join James Lindsay at Sovereign Nations, get a job from Michael O'Fallon and support Trump 2024 12 44.44%
Leave Earth for Planet X 6 22.22%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
Old 8th September 2021, 05:01 PM   #1
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,710
The Peter Boghossian Affair: Professor resigns from woke university: What now?

Peter Boghossian has resigned from his university as he claims they have put ideology above ideas.

You may remember him from those hoaxes he pulled with James Lindsay when he tried to prove that identity politics was rubbish by writing hoax papers and trying to get them published in ultra-obscure journals. His university was not very happy about it and considered the practice to be unethical, which, to be fair, they may have had a point. Besides, the vast majority of the many hoax papers that they wrote never got anywhere near being published, and the few that got further along in the process seemed to be the result of well-meaning peer reviewers who were trying their best to polish turds.

Anyway, he also cites his issues with some talks of his being interrupted such as one time when he was talking with Christina Hoff Sommers and Bret Weinstein that he got heckled by someone sitting in the front row. Apparently she is a tenured staff member who stops shouting out when Boghossian tells her off. Filmed here by Andy Ngo:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


He also had one of his talks, this time with Sargon of Akkad [aka: Carl Benjamin of the increasingly deranged UK Independence Party - no really, this was after the bulk of the party led by Nigel Farage had split to form the Brexit Party and left the "too-racist-even-for-Nigel-Farage dregs"] interrupted when someone set off a fire alarm. This was, coincidentally also filmed by Andy Ngo.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


He also says "Shortly thereafter, swastikas in the bathroom with my name under them began appearing in two bathrooms near the philosophy department. They also occasionally showed up on my office door, in one instance accompanied by bags of feces. Our university remained silent. When it acted, it was against me, not the perpetrators."

He links to evidence of that in the photograph.

Anyway, what's he going to do now? Go to another university? Start his own podcast? Go on Joe Rogan? Join his pal James Lindsay at Sovereign Nations, get paid by Michael O'Fallon and become a Trump supporter?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Peter Boghossian is a secret nazi.jpg (59.0 KB, 12 views)
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th September 2021, 05:21 PM   #2
sir drinks-a-lot
Philosopher
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 5,030
Probably partially depends on his financial situation. A quick Goggle suggests that he's in his mid 50s and has a net work in the low millions. Not sure whether he's married or has kids. If he's married and his wife has a job, or if he's not married, he's probably pretty flexible in what he can do. Maybe he'll write a book or two, do the podcast circuit, a couple of youtube videos...you know. All of these guys end up doing similar things with varying degrees of success.
__________________
I don't like that man. I must get to know him better. --Abraham Lincoln
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th September 2021, 05:33 PM   #3
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,928
Andy Ngo filming multiple contentious incidents is not a "coincidence" either in the strict or colloquial sense.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th September 2021, 05:39 PM   #4
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 53,257
No great loss to the university.
I understand the idea behind tenure, but it's down side is it makes it hard to get rid of professors who really shoud be gotten rid of.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th September 2021, 07:12 PM   #5
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 8,244
Obscure? He's TAM level famous!

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th September 2021, 11:45 PM   #6
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,475
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Anyway, what's he going to do now?
Based on the TAM lecture: He could take his own advice and become more authentic, something that he appears to be very much into! And according to him, a very important part of being authentic is ...
Quote:
... being willing to revise your beliefs. This matters intensely because belief revision allows us to change our behaviors and solve our problems. If you're willing to revise your beliefs, then you'll always fight the faker in yourself.
(...)
Being genuinely open to revise your beliefs prevents us from slipping into dogmatism.
And he lauds Randi for representing: "the need to unremittingly call out every manner of faker." This alone should prevent him from becoming a Trump supporter, but I doubt that it will.

It worries me that he appears to be much too willing to accept his own beliefs and reject the ideas of other simply because they differ from his own.
For instance, I find it weird whenever skeptics, and he appears to be one, don't notice when they are contradicting themselves on the question of religion: On the one hand, we criticize Bible thumpers for cherry picking Bible quotations, thus making it obvious that religious people (much like everybody else, unfortunately) choose what the want to believe. It's not the Bible that tells them to hate gays or abortions, for instance, but they use the Bible to justify their prejudices. And yet whenever a religious person claims that the Bible or the Quran makes them do certain things, we agree with them: Religion made them do it! Instead of: They justify whatever they did with their favorite religious screed.

In Boghossian's case,
Quote:
For example, many on the left, like American journalist Glenn Greenwald, are unwilling to believe that beliefs have consequences in terms of behavior, specifically that Muslim extremists are actually committing certain atrocities for very specific religious reasons. Greenwald is unshakeable in his conviction that these actions are the consequences of U.S. foreign policy. Even after a suicide bomber's explicit admission that he was motivated by passages from the Quran, many on the left, mostly those in academia, will say things like, 'Well, he didn't really mean that,' or, 'It's simply not the case that religion had anything to do with it,' or, 'You're a bigot!'

Why are we supposed to take the words of a religious fanatic for granted when he claims something that we would like to assume is an "explicit admission" instead of a dishonest justification?

Now, I don't know anything about Greenwald, but as his point of view is presented here, it would be wrong, but this may be a question of Boghossian presenting a strawman argument. I don't know.
What I do know is that the Quran, for obvious reasons, says nothing whatsoever about the USA or suicide bombers, so I don't find it at all unlikely that the hatred that some Muslim extremists have for the USA and their willingness to sacrifice their own lives in a struggle against the USA may actually have something to do with "the consequences of U.S. foreign policy." Otherwise, why attack the USA and not, for instance, Iceland of Finland, which are much more secularized countries than the USA - and much easier targets?

When the revolution in Iran took place in the 1970s, it was obvious that it was both religious and anti-American: the first targets of attacks were Coca-Cola machines and movie theaters showing porn, which also makes it obvious that this was a very different brand of anti-Americanism than left-wing anti-imperialism. It was an attack on American consumerism culture and what was considered sinful behavior. So it was religious in nature while at the same time attacking the country that had installed these phenoma in Iran (along with the Shah). How could that not be seen as "consequences of U.S. foreign policy"?

As soon as Boghossian realizes this, it should be possible for him to overcome his bias against the allegedly inauthentic Greenwald and thus become much more authentic himself.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2021, 08:59 PM   #7
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,710
The authenticity thing is a little ironic given that Boghossian is probably most famous, if at all, for writing a slew of hoax papers and trying to get them published in what he and his collaborators considred to be "grievance studies" journals.

To do that, they simply made up data about things like whether or not dog owners allowed or prevented their dogs from humping other dogs in dog parks, etc...then they cut it short when their hoax was rumbled.

On the Very Bad Wizards podcast Tamler Sommers made a joke about how, for their next hoax, they could try to write something they actually believed and get it published in a good journal.

In fact, it is pretty ironic that they target "grievance studies" when Peter Boghossian seems to spend all his time aggrieved.

Oh, and did I tell you that one of his best buds is Bret Weinstein? Given his stance on bad academic standards, what is his take on Weinstein relying on pay-to-play BS journals and papers in support of Ivermectin.

Okay, my verdict: Peter Boghossian is just another grifter who probably hopes his resignation can kickstart his career as a martyred outcast.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2021, 09:22 PM   #8
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 19,358
It's also worth noting that the cause quoted for his investigation by the school board, was that he "violated ethical guidelines on human-subjects research". Also the ban from doing more research was only until he "completed training and could demonstrate that he understood how to protect the rights of human subjects".

His making up data in published research was considered, but not actually investigated.

It may seem harsh, but yes, psychology or sociology studies also have to abide by certain guidelines when dealing with human subjects. Just because you aren't cutting people up like Mengele doesn't mean you can't still do a lot of harm.

And, honestly, much as I'd like to get worked up about this, it's hard to feel like someone was horribly persecuted by... telling him to take a course in how to do his experiments right. I'm pretty sure that in the real world, i.e., when you're dealing with a private employer in a company, just being sent to take a course when you screwed up spectacularly is the happy ending, not the horrible persecution case.

Also -- although, again, this was not what the IRB got on his case about -- it seems bizarre to me to hear some people claim that his hoaxes should have been protected as satire. Uh, no. If you want to publish satire, you publish it as fiction, not as research data. It's, if you will, the same difference as Randi was pointing out between stage conjurers and frauds. The former tell you up front that it's a trick, the latter pretend it's the real thing. The former is OK, the latter is not. Seems to me like this dude just fell in the latter category, except about research instead of stage magic.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 9th September 2021 at 09:29 PM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2021, 09:40 PM   #9
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,819
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Okay, my verdict: Peter Boghossian is just another grifter who probably hopes his resignation can kickstart his career as a martyred outcast.
I'm not sure. This might not be the best way to put it, but I think he is genuine in his entitlement. This is to say, instead of being self aware of it he unknowingly exhibits a common, especially in the US, attitude.

The law protects their in group, it binds others.

They have rights, others have responsibilities.

If you don't respect them as an authority (give deference), they won't respect you as a person.

It is rude and wrong to criticize or judge them (say for refusing a vaccine and thus causing thousands of unneeded deaths and economic damage), but their criticisms and judgements must be given primacy.

Their concerns are valid, your concerns are excuses.

In this specific case, they want the protection of academic freedom to say and do whatever, but they shouldn't have to apply the academic rigor they demand of others to show their arguments have value. For some reason they think that academic freedom means others have to listen too and address their assertions in perpetuity no matter how little valid support they bring nor how many times it gets disproven. This is in fact the source of a lot of right wing complaints about 'liberal domination of academia'; a huge number of right wing ideas are intellectual bankrupt and academics won't pretend for them. They won't give time or resources to them.

And all they can do is stomp their feet and go home. (Then try to defund and legitimize more and more fields of study, and come up with rationalizations for the inevitable violence they'll bring to them.)
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2021, 10:26 PM   #10
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,710
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I'm not sure. This might not be the best way to put it, but I think he is genuine in his entitlement. This is to say, instead of being self aware of it he unknowingly exhibits a common, especially in the US, attitude.

The law protects their in group, it binds others.

They have rights, others have responsibilities.

If you don't respect them as an authority (give deference), they won't respect you as a person.

It is rude and wrong to criticize or judge them (say for refusing a vaccine and thus causing thousands of unneeded deaths and economic damage), but their criticisms and judgements must be given primacy.

Their concerns are valid, your concerns are excuses.

In this specific case, they want the protection of academic freedom to say and do whatever, but they shouldn't have to apply the academic rigor they demand of others to show their arguments have value. For some reason they think that academic freedom means others have to listen too and address their assertions in perpetuity no matter how little valid support they bring nor how many times it gets disproven. This is in fact the source of a lot of right wing complaints about 'liberal domination of academia'; a huge number of right wing ideas are intellectual bankrupt and academics won't pretend for them. They won't give time or resources to them.

And all they can do is stomp their feet and go home. (Then try to defund and legitimize more and more fields of study, and come up with rationalizations for the inevitable violence they'll bring to them.)
Oh, he's definitely entitled.

Right now he can't believe that the liberal media have not cleared their schedules and pushed Afghanistan, Covid and Texas abortion laws off their news cycles in order to interview him.

Sure, I expect that "Obscure Philosophy teacher resigns from second-tier university" is just the headline that gets ratings.

"FREEDOM OF THOUGHT: Row over academic's resignation exposes woke hypocrisy", on the other hand, obviously fits the right-wing narrative.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Boghossian liberal media.jpg (29.6 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg Boghossian liberal media 2.jpg (25.4 KB, 20 views)
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2021, 11:20 PM   #11
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Administrator
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 50,379
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Obscure? He's TAM level famous!

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Well, I was clearly there, but the talk left little impression as I have no memory of it.

P1080997.jpg by zooterkin, on Flickr
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2021, 11:35 PM   #12
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,710
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Well, I was clearly there, but the talk left little impression as I have no memory of it.
I watched it yesterday and I'm struggling to remember it too.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2021, 12:53 AM   #13
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,475
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Okay, my verdict: Peter Boghossian is just another grifter who probably hopes his resignation can kickstart his career as a martyred outcast.

Aren't there too many suppliers of that service to make a career out of it? Sure, he may get interviewed on Fox or Newsmax or some obscure podcast, but he'll be forgotten tomorrow.
Do the Ngos and Yiannopouloses make any money nowadays?
Trump can't employ them all, and he can no longer give them lucrative government-sponsored jobs in exchange for praising him:
White House asks Sean Spicer and Kellyanne Conway to quit military academy boards (The Guardian, Sep 9, 2021)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 10th September 2021 at 12:56 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2021, 08:09 AM   #14
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 13,714
There's only so much wingnut welfare to go around.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2021, 12:53 PM   #15
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,614
Did someone say entitled?

"Man Quits Job" was never going to be a headline.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2021, 02:15 PM   #16
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,928
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Did someone say entitled?

"Man Quits Job" was never going to be a headline.
Doesn't consider himself a conservative.

Let me guess, he's a "disaffected liberal-leaning moderate."

:eyeroll:
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2021, 03:38 PM   #17
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,710
Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Doesn't consider himself a conservative.

Let me guess, he's a "disaffected liberal-leaning moderate."

:eyeroll:
It’s the grift that keeps on giving. Is it any surprise that he had Dave Rubin, Sargon of Akkad, Bret Weinstein, Heather Heying, Tim Pool and Christina Hoff Sommers come and talk at his uni? Oh, and did he have them there to robustly critique their ideas? Of course not! It was blatantly obvious he had them along as megaphones for his complaint that universities are too full of woke snowflakes. And to complain that academia itself it rotten with “grievance studies”. Then when a tiny number of students disrupted his rallies, or wrote slightly rude things about him on a toilet door, he claims oppression and quits. This is a guy who claims to be “fighting ideological warfare”? What a ******* loser!
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2021, 08:09 PM   #18
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 19,358
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Did someone say entitled?

"Man Quits Job" was never going to be a headline.
That was more or less what I was wondering too. I mean, I don't even care if he's actually right wing, left wing, or whatever, but "Guy voluntarily quits his job because he was subjected to such 'oppression' as being sent to a course on how to do his research right, and because students are meanies" seems really hard to get all worked up about. I mean, if he had been fired over being at some party convention or something, I could see myself foaming at the mouth a bit about it, but... WTH, he quit himself and the worst the employer ever did to him was send him to take a course.

Plus, dunno, he seems like such a fragile precious snowflake, that it seems... weird that he'd be the one to be on some crusade against fragile precious snowflakes.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2021, 09:27 PM   #19
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,928
In the first video from the OP, he proposes another professor is "unhinged from reality," wonders how they are allowed to teach in our institutions, and suggests that is the "fundamental question."

Sounds a lot like he's proposing this other professor needs to be canceled.

He also made some remarks about "these people" who are "making up" their own body of knowledge.

Sounds like he's a walking, talking case study of projection.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd October 2021, 11:41 AM   #20
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 8,244
Weirds me out when this drama bubbles up to mainstream outlets.

https://www.economist.com/united-sta...mia-to-conform
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd October 2021, 02:10 PM   #21
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,676
https://www.economist.com/united-sta...mia-to-conform
In 2018 he and two authors tried to publish 20 fake papers, in order to expose what they saw as a willingness to publish anything that used the right jargon.
Regardless of how noble you might think your cause is, there is no valid justification whatsoever for publishing fake papers and/or research. Doing so brings you and your university discredit, and violates your university's trust in your integrity - it puts you in the same scumbaggery class as Andrew Wakefield.

If you want to expose something, write and submit a proper paper exposing it. If it is published you have the publicity you've been wanting; if it is not published. you have ammunition for your argument.
"Part of the problem, says Bruce Gilley, one of Mr Boghossian’s supporters at PSU, is the “diversity industrial complex” within college administrations, that need to justify their existence."
Looks like someone's buzzword generator has been in overdrive

Seriously, take a good look at yourself Mr Gilley. You complain about "the right jargon", and then you come up with a bull-**** term like “diversity industrial complex”
.
.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!

Last edited by smartcooky; 2nd October 2021 at 03:30 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd October 2021, 02:48 PM   #22
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 8,244
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
If you want to expose something, write and submit a proper paper exposing it.
How exactly could one expose the tendency of certain journals to publish unserious nonsense without directly testing the hypothesis itself?
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd October 2021, 03:30 PM   #23
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,676
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
How exactly could one expose the tendency of certain journals to publish unserious nonsense without directly testing the hypothesis itself?
Did you actually read what I posted, I mean, at all?
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd October 2021, 03:45 PM   #24
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 8,244
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Did you actually read what I posted, I mean, at all?
Yes; it was a series of moral assertions offered without analysis as if from a pulpit.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.

Last edited by d4m10n; 2nd October 2021 at 03:48 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd October 2021, 03:51 PM   #25
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,676
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Yes; it was a series of moral assertions offered without analysis as if from a pulpit.
You actually snipped out the bit that would have answered the question you asked in post 154.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!

Last edited by smartcooky; 2nd October 2021 at 03:52 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd October 2021, 04:02 PM   #26
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 8,244
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You actually snipped out the bit that would have answered the question you asked in post 154.
"If you want to expose something, write and submit a proper paper exposing it."

Exposing it how, exactly?

Are there any historical examples of the paper you propose here?
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.

Last edited by d4m10n; 2nd October 2021 at 04:03 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd October 2021, 06:53 PM   #27
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 14,744
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
https://www.economist.com/united-sta...mia-to-conform
In 2018 he and two authors tried to publish 20 fake papers, in order to expose what they saw as a willingness to publish anything that used the right jargon.
Regardless of how noble you might think your cause is, there is no valid justification whatsoever for publishing fake papers and/or research. Doing so brings you and your university discredit, and violates your university's trust in your integrity - it puts you in the same scumbaggery class as Andrew Wakefield.

If you want to expose something, write and submit a proper paper exposing it. If it is published you have the publicity you've been wanting; if it is not published. you have ammunition for your argument.
"Part of the problem, says Bruce Gilley, one of Mr Boghossian’s supporters at PSU, is the “diversity industrial complex” within college administrations, that need to justify their existence."
Looks like someone's buzzword generator has been in overdrive

Seriously, take a good look at yourself Mr Gilley. You complain about "the right jargon", and then you come up with a bull-**** term like “diversity industrial complex”
.
.
"Diversity industrial complex" is a play on Eisenhower's famous "military industrial complex"; maybe this is unclear to non-Americans.

I support fake submissions to fake journals. The famous Sokal Hoax was an old-school leftist exposing fashionable nonsense.
__________________
Cain: Don't be a homo.
Diablo: What's that supposed to mean?
Cain: It's a heteronormative remark meant to be taken at face-value.
Diablo: You're a lousy bigot. Apologise and withdraw that remark.
Cain: Nah.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd October 2021, 08:03 PM   #28
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 48,311
Originally Posted by Cain View Post
"Diversity industrial complex" is a play on Eisenhower's famous "military industrial complex"; maybe this is unclear to non-Americans.

I support fake submissions to fake journals. The famous Sokal Hoax was an old-school leftist exposing fashionable nonsense.
Indeed. Sokol did far more good than harm by getting his laughable submission published. Journals started to become more responsible rather than simply publishing every document and collecting fees. It looks like irresponsible journals are still thick on the ground though.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill

Last edited by lionking; 2nd October 2021 at 08:04 PM.
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd October 2021, 01:11 PM   #29
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 8,244
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Premise: You believe Thing A is bad!

Step 1: Write a paper explaining why you believe Thing A is bad
Writing a paper with the premise that journals like Social TextWP are too quick to publish nonsense (and of course that is bad) isn't particularly demonstrative, in my view. Even if you point to several nonsensical papers which have slipped through, everyone involved will solemnly affirm they are doing proper postmodern deconstruction.

To truly demonstrate that selected journals are too quick to publish nonsense, you have to make up some utter nonsense, add the right buzzwords, and get it published in those journals. Then no one can say "You just don't understand how postmodern deconstruction works!"

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Sokol did far more good than harm by getting his laughable submission published. Journals started to become more responsible rather than simply publishing every document and collecting fees. It looks like irresponsible journals are still thick on the ground though.
Precisely! (IIRC, no one tried to cancel him at the time.)
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.

Last edited by d4m10n; 3rd October 2021 at 01:22 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd October 2021, 01:59 PM   #30
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,676
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Writing a paper with the premise that journals like Social TextWP are too quick to publish nonsense (and of course that is bad) isn't particularly demonstrative, in my view. Even if you point to several nonsensical papers which have slipped through, everyone involved will solemnly affirm they are doing proper postmodern deconstruction.

To truly demonstrate that selected journals are too quick to publish nonsense, you have to make up some utter nonsense, add the right buzzwords, and get it published in those journals. Then no one can say "You just don't understand how postmodern deconstruction works!"
Publishing nonsense is what disinformation pedlars like Andrew Wakefield did, and he was rightly stripped of his doctoral license for what he did.

I put this in the same category as that bastard Wakefield - publishing false or misleading information that you KNOW is untrue, under cover of academic privilege. Doing this destroys trust in that person's academic work and brings the whole of academia into disrepute. For mine, it calls into question everything else he has published - I would certainly never again trust anything such a person published in the future - once trust is broken, there is no redemption.

Publishing bollocks, and then coming along later and justifying it by claiming that you "were trying to make a point", is the academic equivalent of politicians who have made inappropriate or racist remarks and then walked them back by claiming they "were only joking" .

They lied then - why should I believe them now?
.
.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd October 2021, 02:33 PM   #31
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 8,244
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Publishing nonsense is what disinformation pedlars like Andrew Wakefield did, and he was rightly stripped of his doctoral license for what he did.
This is a spurious comparison, on at least a few levels.

Firstly, Wakefield maintains to this day that there was no hoax, fraud, or profit motive whereas folks like Sokal and Boghossian almost immediately admitted they were making **** up for the sake of testing the peer review process.

Secondly, Wakefield is persuading people to avoid potentially lifesaving measures, whereas the faux-pomo hoaxers were playing in a much less consequential sandbox. No one was harmed in the making...etc.

Finally, Wakefield was literally experimenting on children without proper oversight, e.g. performing unnecessary colonoscopies and spinal taps.

Continue to make this comparison if you like, but don't expect me to accept it.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd October 2021, 02:37 PM   #32
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,676
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This is a spurious comparison, on at least a few levels.

Firstly, Wakefield maintains to this day that there was no hoax, fraud, or profit motive whereas folks like Sokal and Boghossian almost immediately admitted they were making **** up for the sake of testing the peer review process.

Secondly, Wakefield is persuading people to avoid potentially lifesaving measures, whereas the faux-pomo hoaxers were playing in a much less consequential sandbox. No one was harmed in the making...etc.

Finally, Wakefield was literally experimenting on children without proper oversight, e.g. performing unnecessary colonoscopies and spinal taps.

Continue to make this comparison if you like, but don't expect me to accept it.
Granted, one is more serious than the other, but at the end of the day, they both knowingly published BS.

Boghossian is now no longer to be trusted in my book.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd October 2021, 02:49 PM   #33
Boudicca90
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Murrieta, CA
Posts: 728
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Granted, one is more serious than the other, but at the end of the day, they both knowingly published BS.

Boghossian is now no longer to be trusted in my book.
We are still dealing with the consequences of Wakefield's BS, and I have no doubt that it influences the decisions of a lot of the current covid anti-vax movement. His research may have started with linking autism with vaccines, but it had the larger effect of sowing distrust in vaccinations in general.

It's a movement that may have started out among naïve liberals, but thanks to the politicization of covid, conservatives have jumped onto that nonsense, and in much larger numbers.

His research was rightfully debunked, but it still lives on among the devoted.
Boudicca90 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd October 2021, 03:15 PM   #34
Elaedith
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,742
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Writing a paper with the premise that journals like Social TextWP are too quick to publish nonsense (and of course that is bad) isn't particularly demonstrative, in my view. Even if you point to several nonsensical papers which have slipped through, everyone involved will solemnly affirm they are doing proper postmodern deconstruction.

To truly demonstrate that selected journals are too quick to publish nonsense, you have to make up some utter nonsense, add the right buzzwords, and get it published in those journals. Then no one can say "You just don't understand how postmodern deconstruction works!"

Precisely! (IIRC, no one tried to cancel him at the time.)
Sokal is on the left and was trying to 'defend the Left from a trendy segment of itself' (the part that rejects liberalism, free inquiry, objective truth and other so-called enlightenment values). Unfortunately it looks like little was learned from it in the long run. I think the difference in reaction to Boghossian and colleagues compared to Sokal is a marker of how bad things have become.
__________________
"The surest way to work up a crusade in favor of some good cause is to promise people they will have a chance of maltreating someone." - Aldous Huxley.
Elaedith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd October 2021, 03:18 PM   #35
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 14,744
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Publishing nonsense is what disinformation pedlars like Andrew Wakefield did, and he was rightly stripped of his doctoral license for what he did.

I put this in the same category as that bastard Wakefield - publishing false or misleading information that you KNOW is untrue, under cover of academic privilege.
These two cases are in the same moral universe. A lot of publishing is fraudulent -- the academic industrial complex. Data dredging/P-hacking for tenure/The Replication Crisis. The authors of fake papers are quick to apprise readers of the hoax. It's the difference between perpetuating and dispelling a delusion.
__________________
Cain: Don't be a homo.
Diablo: What's that supposed to mean?
Cain: It's a heteronormative remark meant to be taken at face-value.
Diablo: You're a lousy bigot. Apologise and withdraw that remark.
Cain: Nah.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd October 2021, 04:02 PM   #36
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,710
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Weirds me out when this drama bubbles up to mainstream outlets.

https://www.economist.com/united-sta...mia-to-conform
LOL! Peter Boghossian is now an example of "cancel culture"?

He resigned from his job! Then he went on a cringey Twitter tear demanding to know why CNN wasn't interviewing him as though his resignation should have been national news.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd October 2021, 04:06 PM   #37
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,676
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
LOL! Peter Boghossian is now an example of "cancel culture"?

He resigned from his job! Then he went on a cringey Twitter tear demanding to know why CNN wasn't interviewing him as though his resignation should have been national news.
And the reality is, he was a Neville ******* Nobody anyway... World Famous in Portland .

Who here had ever heard of him anyway?
.
.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd October 2021, 04:23 PM   #38
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,710
I don't really have a problem with getting a hoax paper published in a journal. As has been mentioned, the Sokal hoax was a good example of that.

But Boghossian should have realized that he was breaching the IRB of his university. If you literally make up data and your "study" involves wasting the time and effort of editorial staff on numerous journals in order to point and laugh at them, and then you want to say, "Aha! Our study proves that grievance studies is phoney baloney, LOL!" then it becomes ironic, to say the least, that Boghossian is not living up to any academic standards himself. It is obviously on dodgy ethical grounds, and from the whole episode it is amusing that Boghossian, James Lindsay and Helen Pluckrose were calling out "grievance studies" and now thinks that while trying to pick on a few obscure journals because they apparently promote the idea of oppressed groups, Boghossian think his own "oppression" and grievances are deserving of becoming national and international news.

The fact is that the Sokal Squared hoax was pretty much just a load of bollocks. It demonstrated very little of interest ("Hey, guess what! A lot of academic work is garbage!" - Is there anyone who didn't know this?), and Boghossian is a total grifter.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd October 2021, 04:31 PM   #39
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 31,710
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And the reality is, he was a Neville ******* Nobody anyway... World Famous in Portland .

Who here had ever heard of him anyway?
.
.
I had heard of him, and knew of him as a grifter who has been trying to jump on various bandwagons to get clout. He's like Gad Saad in that he's always thought of himself as part of that well-known grifter club, the Intellectual Dark Web, but he's been left out because he wasn't interesting enough. LOL!

He's been trying to piss people off at his university for years by inviting people like Sargon of Akkad to give talks. Then when students react negatively he's been claiming cancel culture. It's been suspected that he has been trying to get himself fired for years, but when it didn't work he resigned.

I doubt anyone would give him a job in a university now, and he's not an A-lister in the griftersphere, so he'll have to make do with appearances on Epoch Times, Newsmax, and some other right-wing crank outlets from now on.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd October 2021, 04:35 PM   #40
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 8,244
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Who here had ever heard of him anyway?
TAM 2013 attendees, presumably.
__________________
Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:31 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.