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View Poll Results: What's Peter Boghossian going to do now?
Get a job at another university because he is an academic who cares about teaching 3 11.11%
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Old 22nd November 2021, 07:59 AM   #121
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Fascinating.
If Sokal hoaxed Social TextWP again today, would it ethically require IRB oversight?

If so, what changed?
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Old 22nd November 2021, 03:23 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
If Sokal hoaxed Social TextWP again today, would it ethically require IRB oversight?

If so, what changed?
Probably not. What evidence is there? Because Lindsay and Boghossian’s Conceptual Penis Hoax didn’t get treated the same way.

So what’s different? Maybe the fact that in the Sokal Squared study they appeared to be doing something more systematic and wrote it up as if it were a study and they called it a study and even referred to it as an ethnography and had a methods section etc….

I showed you all this when you initially doubted it, remember?

Don’t you think this is ironic in the slightest that they accuse others of failing to write studies with scientific rigour and of being overly focused on “grievances”? So when the original Conceptual Penis hoax came out it was pointed out (including by Sokal in fact) that the hoax didn’t really show what they intended because it lacked rigour, so they drew up a née study with hypotheses and a methodology and now their supporters are trying to exonerate them by saying it wasn’t even a study at all?

Like I said, I am not accusing them of competence but they can hardly use the “this is not a study” defence and to their credit they don’t seem to be doing that. Instead they are using an altogether weirder defence that the editors and peer reviewers cannot be human subjects or that the university is out to get them because of systemic oppression and that this is going to lead to Boghossian’s firing.

Please notice that Boghossian was NOT fired and the only discipline he received was that he needed to do the relevant training before being allowed to do research again. Why this is held up as something so intolerable that Boghossian had to self-cancel as a result it is hard to see unless he is just good at persuading fans that this is part of the moral panic he is fighting an “ideological war” (his words) against.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 04:02 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Like I said, I am not accusing them of competence but they can hardly use the “this is not a study” defence and to their credit they don’t seem to be doing that.
If it's not an ethnography, it ought not be held to the ethical standards of ethnography. This remains true even if the authors mischaracterized (or merely analogized) what they were doing as ethnography, an academic enterprise which carries significant risks.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Instead they are using an altogether weirder defence that the editors and peer reviewers cannot be human subjects...
Would you say that journal editors or reviewers are at risk of physical or psychological harm in the same way that subjects of medical or psychological experiments are at risk? If not, why the need for institutional oversight? What are we trying to prevent, other than embarrassment?
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Old 22nd November 2021, 04:44 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
If it's not an ethnography, it ought not be held to the ethical standards of ethnography. This remains true even if the authors mischaracterized (or merely analogized) what they were doing as ethnography, an academic enterprise which carries significant risks.

Would you say that journal editors or reviewers are at risk of physical or psychological harm in the same way that subjects of medical or psychological experiments are at risk? If not, why the need for institutional oversight? What are we trying to prevent, other than embarrassment?
How would you go about answering these questions if you were asking in good faith?

One way you might is to find out what the researchers themselves were trying to do. Another way, is to find out what relevant experts thought.

When you asked me for evidence that they considered themselves doing research, I provided it to you. Yet, even then you continue to deny they were doing the very research they said they were.

Then you quoted an article in which the IRB experts even said that this type of research needs to be run by the IRB even if only to get an exemption.

You have seen the necessary evidence and yet all you are doing now is doubling down on objections that have been answered already.

Your questions have been answered: the researchers don't get to decide on how much potential harm is expected, the IRBs do.

It seems to me you are not very clued up on this, but you prefer your own intuitions to that of expert opinion. If that's the case, clearly nothing can change your mind, and it is a waste of time arguing with you.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 04:49 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
When you asked me for evidence that they considered themselves doing research, I provided it to you. Yet, even then you continue to deny they were doing the very research they said they were.
Do you seriously believe they were doing ethnography? I think it's weird that you keep ducking this question.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Your questions have been answered: the researchers don't get to decide on how much potential harm is expected, the IRBs do.
Potential harms such as embarrassment?
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Old 22nd November 2021, 05:24 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
If it's not an ethnography, it ought not be held to the ethical standards of ethnography. This remains true even if the authors mischaracterized (or merely analogized) what they were doing as ethnography, an academic enterprise which carries significant risks.?
These authors didn't 'analogize' it as such, they submitted it as such. They wanted to claim the benefits of that standard but not the rigor, while at the same time using those standards to claim they're being unfairly treated by that standard and seeking to expose other people for not living up to a similar standard!

It was the standard they asked for. Your objection is less than meaningless. That they failed so badly at it is aggravating, not mitigating.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 06:14 PM   #127
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Where was the control?

He should have set up a rival suitably motivated group to prepare hoax articles to be published in scientific journals.

From what I have seen of open source journals on evolutionary psychology I bet you could do a lot better than just seven hoax papers in them.

In fact it is hard to believe that some of the existing papers are not hoaxes.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 06:24 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Where was the control?

He should have set up a rival suitably motivated group to prepare hoax articles to be published in scientific journals.

From what I have seen of open source journals on evolutionary psychology I bet you could do a lot better than just seven hoax papers in them.

In fact it is hard to believe that some of the existing papers are not hoaxes.
Lol! How about cunnilingus as a method for detecting infidelity?

Also, I have mentioned before that Boghossian is friends with Heather Heying and Bret Weinstein who have been taken in by some of the worst and most obviously fraudulent studies on “ivermectin” and whose promotion of them has almost certainly led to actual harms such as death and hospitalization from Covid. It’s clear that none of these clowns have a clue about scientific rigour.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 06:57 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
These authors didn't 'analogize' it as such, they submitted it as such.
To whom?
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Old 22nd November 2021, 07:10 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
To whom?
The public. You've been linked to this already.

Your objection remains less than meaningless.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 07:29 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The public. You've been linked to this already.

Your objection remains less than meaningless.
It's weird how some people think, "But in my opinion...." should trump all evidence.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 08:16 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
The public.
That isn't what "submitting a study" usually means, last I checked.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 08:44 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
That isn't what "submitting a study" usually means, last I checked.
Their bad faith and bad arguments don't support their, or your, complaints. This isn't a problem for my observations.

Again, this is an aggravating factor you present as mitigating. Actually, no, you are just 'saying things' not making an argument again.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 08:49 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
This isn't a problem for my observations.
When you say "they submitted it as such," you mean they published an alleged ethnography (which no one here claims to call an actual ethnography) to an online magazine which doesn't specialize in anthropology or social science.

Are you sure you've not confused italics with scare quotes?
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Old 22nd November 2021, 08:51 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
When you say "they submitted it as such," you mean they published an alleged ethnography (which no one here thinks is an actual ethnography) an online magazine which doesn't specialize in anthropology. Are you sure you've not confused italics with scare quotes?
This is highly dishonest of you. You just removed all the parts of my quote to bring up another red herring.

Did you have any way this connected to their complaints or yours in mind?
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Old 22nd November 2021, 09:03 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You just removed all the parts of my quote to bring up another red herring.
We disagree about whether they submitted an ethnography, since that implies a scientific review process.

I would say they published an editorial exposé in a magazine, and were grandiose (or perhaps cheeky) enough to compare themselves to field anthropologists in the writeup.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 09:20 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
We disagree about whether they submitted an ethnography, since that implies a scientific review process.

I would say they published an editorial exposé in a magazine, and were grandiose (or perhaps cheeky) enough to compare themselves to field anthropologists in the writeup.
Why do you think professors and people attempting to claim academic standing should be able to publish what they claim is research without being held to account by their employers and professional organizations? How far does your argument extend? Should a doctor be able to call something a study just because they didn't publish it in the right journal?

You're just providing more red herrings. The detail you focus on, and try to get others to address, doesn't change the problems with what they did. They aren't being treated unfairly, and your distractions are just bad.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 09:27 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
This is highly dishonest of you.
Wow! Imagine my surprise.

I notice that he keeps attributing views to people that they have not asserted in order to bolster his threadbare argument such as this...

Quote:
(which no one here thinks is an actual ethnography)
I have not said it is not an ethnography. I am taking their claim at face value and saying that if it is an ethnography, it needs IRB approval.

The fact that damion cannot fathom why they would need to do so only speaks to his own ignorance.

I notice that Lindsay and Pluckrose then wrote a piece which contains a blend of hyperbolic claims of persecution and crappy humour:

Quote:
in a letter dated December 17, 2018, Peter was informed that he had failed to secure the necessary IRB approval to participate in our grievance studies audit. As a distinct upside to this bizarre turn of the institutional thumbscrews, the Portland State University IRB determined our work “met the federal definition of ‘research’ (45 CFR 46.102) as the project was a systematic investigation designed to develop or contribute to generalizable knowledge.” Despite the circumstances, we feel compelled to offer our sincere appreciation to the Board for formally and officially legitimizing our work in this way.
https://areomagazine.com/2019/01/05/...ortland-state/

Of course, "legitimizing" the work as research doesn't mean that it was good, only that it had to abide by particular standards.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 09:35 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Wow! Imagine my surprise.

I notice that he keeps attributing views to people that they have not asserted in order to bolster his threadbare argument such as this...



I have not said it is not an ethnography. I am taking their claim at face value and saying that if it is an ethnography, it needs IRB approval.

The fact that damion cannot fathom why they would need to do so only speaks to his own ignorance.

I notice that Lindsay and Pluckrose then wrote a piece which contains a blend of hyperbolic claims of persecution and crappy humour:



https://areomagazine.com/2019/01/05/...ortland-state/

Of course, "legitimizing" the work as research doesn't mean that it was good, only that it had to abide by particular standards.
It is a bit of the 'dead cat on the table' argument. If what d4m10n said were taken at face value, it's still unconscionable professional misconduct on behalf of the authors of the same kind that's trying to be distracted from. It isn't mitigating. It doesn't change the objections. Such professionals trying to pass off their writings as research if it isn't really research isn't better in magnitude nor kind as the professional misconduct they engaged in by failing to get the proper clearance then making such a mess of the research.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 11:09 PM   #140
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Lindsay, Pluckrose and Boghossian seem to feel they have some grievance about this. I am hard pressed to see what it is.

If it was a proper study then they should accept that they have contravened the rules about human subjects and Boghossian should accept the light slap on the wrist graciously.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 11:12 PM   #141
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They should be happy. Pluckrose has her very own popular grievance web site and Boghossian is starting up a whole grievance university. Exciting times for them.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 01:06 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
They should be happy. Pluckrose has her very own popular grievance web site and Boghossian is starting up a whole grievance university. Exciting times for them.
I wonder if the University of Austin will have IRBs?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 23rd November 2021, 10:05 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I have not said it is not an ethnography.
Do you believe it is an ethnography?

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I am taking their claim at face value and saying that if it is an ethnography, it needs IRB approval.
Surely you wouldn't argue that people ought to act on false beliefs?

(If so, that would make the 1/6 riots much less blameworthy.)

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Such professionals trying to pass off their writings as research if it isn't really research isn't better in magnitude nor kind as the professional misconduct they engaged in by failing to get the proper clearance then making such a mess of the research.
Not sure whether I'd say it wasn't research in any sense of the term, but I remain highly skeptical of the claim that journal editors are "human subjects" in the same sense as hunter gatherers hosting an anthropologist. In the latter case, potential harms are various and serious.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 11:14 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Do you believe it is an ethnography?

Surely you wouldn't argue that people ought to act on false beliefs?

(If so, that would make the 1/6 riots much less blameworthy.)

Not sure whether I'd say it wasn't research in any sense of the term, but I remain highly skeptical of the claim that journal editors are "human subjects" in the same sense as hunter gatherers hosting an anthropologist. In the latter case, potential harms are various and serious.
Schrodinger's standards; they both are and are not doing research depending on whether or not it's advantageous to the anti-woke.

Your skepticism is of no evidentiary worth. What other professional standards should people be able to violate if they don't submit to high-status journals? Or is it only these professionals specifically who get that protection? How far does your argument extend? Should a doctor be able to call something a study just because they didn't publish it in the right journal? Can a law professor give what they call legal advice if they don't publish it in a law journal?
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Old 23rd November 2021, 12:42 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Schrodinger's standards; they both are and are not doing research depending on whether or not it's advantageous to the anti-woke.

Your skepticism is of no evidentiary worth. What other professional standards should people be able to violate if they don't submit to high-status journals? Or is it only these professionals specifically who get that protection? How far does your argument extend? Should a doctor be able to call something a study just because they didn't publish it in the right journal? Can a law professor give what they call legal advice if they don't publish it in a law journal?
It does give hope to Andrew Wakefeild getting his licence to practice medicine back. There is no expectation that data published in journals not be fraudulent anymore.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 01:18 PM   #146
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If I were applying for, say, a pilot's license, there may be a step in the process that requires me to get my vision checked. There's a part of me that would see this as a waste of time. I already know my eyesight is great. Why bother going through it when I already know the result?

But I would still do it. Unilaterally contravening the process sets a dangerous precedent, and is the kind of thing that should warrant a reprimand.

Likewise, Peter should have gotten approval for his study. If he would have gotten approved anyways, this changes nothing. Do your job right.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 02:32 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
They should be happy. Pluckrose has her very own popular grievance web site and Boghossian is starting up a whole grievance university. Exciting times for them.
Actually, maybe the punchline will be that they set up a hoax university and they will point out the ways they punked the media with their obvious hoax having a number of tells: 1st, how could it be a university with no degree courses, morons! 2nd, how could anyone expect to teach in a brick and mortar university with no buildings? Hello! Obviooooous! 3rd, who would hire Peter Boghossian and two other people as the only teaching staff to set up the entire teaching curriculum? That’s not how universities work!

Yep! We’ll call this one Sokal Cubed!
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Old 23rd November 2021, 04:11 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Schrodinger's standards; they both are and are not doing research depending on whether or not it's advantageous to the anti-woke.
Allow me to clarify yet again.

If they were doing ethnography, they ought to have been held to the ethical standards of ethnography.

If they were not doing ethnography, they ought not to have been held to the ethical standards of ethnography.

Do you believe they were doing ethnography? (Seems I'm the only one willing to answer that question so far.)

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
What other professional standards should people be able to violate if they don't submit to high-status journals?
Their final submission was to Areo Magazine, not a journal.

What professional standards ought to apply to exposés in online magazines, in your view?
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Old 23rd November 2021, 04:40 PM   #149
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I thought he went impotently and limply slinking off to his safe space because he wasn’t being shielded from criticism by the school which was unfair because it was a serious academic endeavor. Which I think the school seemed willing to offer that kind of academic freedom to him had he met the minimum standards required for that, but when offered some needed remedial training on what those standards are, he quit instead.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 04:57 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Allow me to clarify yet again.

If they were doing ethnography, they ought to have been held to the ethical standards of ethnography.

If they were not doing ethnography, they ought not to have been held to the ethical standards of ethnography.
According to who? What other professional standards should people be able to violate if they don't submit to high-status journals? Or is it only these professionals specifically who get that protection? How far does your argument extend? Should a doctor be able to call something a study just because they didn't publish it in the right journal? Can a law professor give what they call legal advice if they don't publish it in a law journal?


Quote:
Do you believe they were doing ethnography? (Seems I'm the only one willing to answer that question so far.)
Your question doesn't need answered as it doesn't matter AND you haven't honestly answered it because you then go back and pretend it was also research for the purposes of shielding them from criticism but not for applying standards. Trying to have it both ways isn't honestly answering the question, and your demand for your red herring to be addressed has no authority.

I'm not qualified to attempt an ethnography, but if I were and passed something off as research that would have fallen under that heading had it been honest, it would be a deeply unethical and unprofessional thing to do as they did. It doesn't matter, truly, if it was otherwise good research, it would still be unprofessional. That it was also not otherwise good in no way means they're not to be held to the professional standards their employment mandates!

There is research and studies I am qualified to attempt. If I presented something called a Root Cause Analysis or Material Inclusion and Yield Tests without following the professional standards, I would have to make clear it was those things in name only at the very least. I couldn't claim the protections of good faith research. It being done badly wouldn't excuse it. Mislabeling wouldn't protect me nor should it. If it was done so badly it couldn't be called either honestly, me calling it that would be worse not excusing.

Quote:
Their final submission was to Areo Magazine, not a journal.

What professional standards ought to apply to exposés in online magazines, in your view?
The same ones as would apply to the professionals in any other setting. Again, should a Law Professor give what they call legal advice in an online magazine without criticism or punishment by the BAR if it was abjectly bad law? Should a doctor be exempt from their professional standards in an online magazine? Would their employers not have standing to reprimand them?


Your red herrings are nonsense. It doesn't matter how your question is answered. My opinion is that they knew they weren't doing honest research of any kind, it was a badly done hit job they were trying to give the protection and respect of academic work, but they didn't follow professional standards either way so it's more than fair game for them to face professional punishment over it. This is especially the case with such a light punishment as the professional organizations pointing out what they did was wrong and how to do it right.

Anti-woke dishonesty and intellectual cowardice on full display.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 05:04 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
According to who?
An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
What other professional standards should people be able to violate if they don't submit to high-status journals?
An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Or is it only these professionals specifically who get that protection?
An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
How far does your argument extend?
An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Should a doctor be able to call something a study just because they didn't publish it in the right journal?
An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Can a law professor give what they call legal advice if they don't publish it in a law journal?
An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Again, should a Law Professor give what they call legal advice in an online magazine without criticism or punishment by the BAR if it was abjectly bad law?
An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Should a doctor be exempt from their professional standards in an online magazine?
An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Would their employers not have standing to reprimand them?
An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

It seems to me that you're asking several questions for each one which you're willing to answer.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
This is especially the case with such a light punishment as the professional organizations pointing out what they did was wrong and how to do it right.
I doubt that any professional organization has stated that there is a right way to hoax academic journals.

Perfectly happy to be corrected on this, though.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 05:13 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

An interesting question, and I'd be willing to answer it if you answer my question about whether the authors of the Areo article were doing ethnography or not.

It seems to me that you're asking several questions for each one which you're willing to answer.

You failed to notice I did answer your question.

You've shown again your lack of willingness to argue in good faith. Aping the language of reasonable discourse doesn't hide the lack of intellectual integrity. Have fun being frustrated people aren't falling for your red herrings even though you word them so 'politely'. Such Nice Guy energy.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 05:15 PM   #153
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
You failed to notice I did answer your question.
I certainly did. Can you quote the answer?

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Such Nice Guy energy.
What a bizarre insult.
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