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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 15th September 2021, 07:13 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If being a little bit squicked out by the prospect of cock-sex with someone in the uncanny valley between male and female makes me a transphobe, then a transphobe is what I am.

Heterosexuals don't have to apologize to anyone for their sexual turn-ons and turn-offs. Homosexuals don't have to justify their sexual attractions to any damn person. Transsexuals don't have to apologize. Why should cissexuals have to?
The idea that anyone has a duty to find another attractive is, and has always been, a fringe theory that nobody really need take seriously. Whether it's weirdos advocating political lesbianism or cranks talking about the "cotton ceiling", I don't really see why this merits any serious consideration other than to try to smear a broader civil rights movement with a lunatic fringe.

The dating police aren't coming.
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:13 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That isn't a homosexual relationship. I guess you could call it a homogendered relationship.
Still seems pretty gay.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The truth is that males still look like males, and females still look like females.
The number of transphobes telling transwomen "you'll never be a man!" seems to suggest otherwise.
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:18 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Nobody has to apologise for anything. For everybody it is true; either you like someone, or you don't.

But if someone insists that they need to subject someone to a chromosomal test before they can decide whether or not they like them, I think that is a bit weird. No kinkshaming.
Okay but you're dancing around the issue, picking and choosing arguments to have, pretending this all exists in a vacuum.

Yes we can all pick and choose our own partners, that's a meaningless truism. But concepts are being presented that make certain decisions, regardless of our "right" to make them, wrong.

Look at it this way.

If my preferred sexual partner is a woman and if there is no difference between a biological male who defines as a woman and a biological female who defines as a woman (and yes that is EXACTLY the argument being made) then how can I be "right" to to not want a biological man who identifies as a woman as a partner.

And again answer the question actually being asked. I'm not talking about my "right" to pick whatever sexual partner I choose, I'm talking about the actual choice being the right one to make.

Or let's throw this grenade into the discussion. Is not liking a partner of a different race racist? How is that different?
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:20 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay but you're dancing around the issue, picking and choosing arguments to have, pretending this all exists in a vacuum.

Yes we can all pick and choose our own partners, that's a meaningless truism. But concepts are being presented that make certain decisions, regardless of our "right" to make them, wrong.

Look at it this way.

If my preferred sexual partner is a woman and if there is no difference between a biological male who defines as a woman and a biological female who defines as a woman (and yes that is EXACTLY the argument being made) then how can I be "right" to to not want a biological man who identifies as a woman as a partner.

And again answer the question actually being asked. I'm not talking about my "right" to pick whatever sexual partner I choose, I'm talking about the actual choice being the right one to make.

Or let's throw this grenade into the discussion. Is not liking a partner of a different race racist? How is that different?
It's pretty well understood there's a huge difference in giving people leeway to have personal preferences and allowing discriminatory public policy to exist.

But yeah, to your question: someone who categorically refuses to date certain races is almost certainly motivated by some level of racism. An individuals personal prejudices expressed through the dating market is not a policy concern. Nobody is trying to regulate this level of interpersonal interaction, but people might form opinions about an individual's character accordingly.
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:28 AM   #85
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Again answer the question asked, not the one you want to answer.

I'm not talking about my "right" to do something. I know I can do it and nobody will stop me so no need to response as if I'm worried about "dating police."

I'm asking, conceptually, why under the definition of "trans" that is being presented, it's a correct (or indeed even meaningful) answer.

I'm not asking if it's okay that I'll date a woman with a vagina but not one with a penis. I'm asking how under the argument being made it's the correct answer.

So there's some difference between a woman with a vagina and one with a penis that magically exists only in dating preferences but not in bathroom, sports, and pronouns?

Why aren't you angry about the fact that I'm "defining someone by their genitals" before I'll sleep with them?
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:41 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again answer the question asked, not the one you want to answer.

I'm not talking about my "right" to do something. I know I can do it and nobody will stop me so no need to response as if I'm worried about "dating police."

I'm asking why under the definition of "trans" that is being presented, it's a correct (or indeed even meaningful) answer.

I'm not asking if it's okay that I'll date a woman with a vagina but not one with a penis. I'm asking how under the argument being made it's the correct answer.

So there's some difference between a woman with a vagina and one with a penis that magically exists only in dating preferences but not in bathroom, sports, and pronouns?

Why aren't you angry about the fact that I'm "defining someone by their genitals" before I'll sleep with them?
Some might find it objectionable, some not. Such is the nature of the world.

Why I'm not angry is because an individual's dating preferences are, strictly speaking, not really that important compared to other issues. The same way I might consider someone who has racial dating preferences to be operating on pretty clear racial prejudice, but I also don't really care about that level of petty animus. I might think less of them personally, but that's about it.

It's a waste of effort to try to explain to someone why they should feel a certain way about trans people when it comes to the more intimate decisions in their lives. I'd be happy if we just got to the point that anti-trans bigotry wasn't enforced by the muscular arm of the state.
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:44 AM   #87
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Reality is not determined by importance of the question.

There cannot be a meaningful distinction the exists when I choose a sexual partner that doesn't exist in bathrooms, sports, and pronouns.

So now not only is there an undiscovered 3rd "Gender Soul" Axis to go along with sex and gender, it phases in and out of existence, not there when I want a date, there when I want to watch Men's Basketball.
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:47 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Reality is not determined by importance of the question.

There cannot be a meaningful distinction the exists when I choose a sexual partner that doesn't exist in bathrooms, sports, and pronouns.

So now not only is there an undiscovered 3rd "Gender Soul" Axis to go along with sex and gender, it phases in and out of existence, not there when I want a date, there when I want to watch Men's Basketball.
Proportionality is key. I'm not saying that people wouldn't form opinions on such dating stances, I'm saying that such responses are too inconsequential to really worry about.

So what if someone thinks less of you for refusing to date trans people? Why does that matter, both to you personally or generally?
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:49 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
So what if someone thinks less of you for refusing to date trans people? Why does that matter, both to you personally or generally?
I'm not about to have the "What does it matter to you if anyone thinks you're a hateful bigot who's committing a literal hate crime?" discussion again, lest of all with you.
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:50 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm not about to have the "What does it matter to you if anyone thinks you're a hateful bigot who's committing a literal hate crime?" discussion again, lest of all with you.
Refusing to date someone is not a crime, so it's not a hate crime regardless if it's motivated by animus.

It's probably for the best for everyone that people with negative views of trans people to avoid dating them. I really don't see the problem.
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:51 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Refusing to date someone is not a crime, so it's not a hate crime regardless if it's motivated by animus.
Give it time.
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:52 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Give it time.
They'll have to get in line behind the political lesbianism movement, a threat just as real and important as whatever horse **** you're shoveling right now.
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:58 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If my preferred sexual partner is a woman and if there is no difference between a biological male who defines as a woman and a biological female who defines as a woman (and yes that is EXACTLY the argument being made)
Nobody made the argument that there is no difference between a biological male who identifies as a woman and a biological female who identifies as a woman.

Quote:
... then how can I be "right" to to not want a biological man who identifies as a woman as a partner.
It is okay to have preferences. If you prefer to date women, it is okay to be a bit disappointed if you find out the person feel attracted to tells you they're a transwoman. It is okay if you don't want to date people who look too mannish for your tastes. It would be a bit weird if you start dating transmen.

Quote:
And again answer the question actually being asked. I'm not talking about my "right" to pick whatever sexual partner I choose, I'm talking about the actual choice being the right one to make.
I don't understand this sentence.

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Is not liking a partner of a different race racist?
No, not liking a someone of a different race is not racist. Not liking them because they are a different race may be. It is okay to have a preference for a certain look or physical characteristics, even if those are much more common among some ethnic groups. It would be weird for a neo-nazi to date a black person, just because of a genetic test shows that black person to be mostly European.
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Old 15th September 2021, 08:01 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Nobody has to apologise for anything. For everybody it is true; either you like someone, or you don't.

But if someone insists that they need to subject someone to a chromosomal test before they can decide whether or not they like them, I think that is a bit weird. No kinkshaming.
The chromosomal test isn't necessary. The primary and secondary sexual characteristics are already visible.
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Old 15th September 2021, 08:03 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Still seems pretty gay.
You seem to have a very weak grasp on human sexuality.

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The number of transphobes telling transwomen "you'll never be a man!" seems to suggest otherwise.
I gotta figure that number must be pretty close to zero.
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Old 15th September 2021, 08:11 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
The number of transphobes telling transwomen "you'll never be a man!" seems to suggest otherwise.
Is that... is that even a thing?

It seems more logical that a transphobe would tell a transwoman "you'll never be a woman!" than "you'll never be a man!"
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Old 15th September 2021, 08:25 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Is that... is that even a thing?

It seems more logical that a transphobe would tell a transwoman "you'll never be a woman!" than "you'll never be a man!"
This is what happens when ambiguous and inconsistent terminology is the cornerstone of your activism.
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Old 15th September 2021, 08:28 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Nobody has to apologise for anything. For everybody it is true; either you like someone, or you don't.

But if someone insists that they need to subject someone to a chromosomal test before they can decide whether or not they like them, I think that is a bit weird. No kinkshaming.

I'm not sure "like" is the important verb here. The word that really matters also has four letters, one of which is a k. It's very important to me, and I can only do it with females.

Yes, I know, there are other things I could do, and people even use the same word, but they aren't the same.

Wanting to do that thing, accepting no substitutes, is not weird. It also doesn't require a chromosomal test.
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Old 15th September 2021, 10:05 AM   #99
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Maybe part of my inability to sypmathise with some of the arguments here is that I find a real big chunk of the people's faces I see every day don't have an earth shatteringly obvious gender. A lot do but plenty don't. It seems to me that there's a pretty large pool of people out there where I'm relying 100% on their presentation to assume their gender. So Prestige's 'males look like males, females look like females, you are just ignoring the truth' thing rings pretty hollow for me.
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Old 15th September 2021, 10:09 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
The study is about whether people would date people whose primary and secondary sexual characteristics are not in perfect alignment with each other.

You don't think it is surprising that gay males are attracted to people who don't look like males, and lesbians are attraced to people who do?
Not at all.

Here's why:
In the out lesbian couples I am personally acquainted with (and there are several) one or both partners would fit the "butch" stereotype. By that, I mean, they have male haircuts, dress in what would be considered stereotypical male clothing, don't wear makeup, and have fairly masculine mannerisms. So, yeah, I can see lesbians being attracted to females who look and act masculine (like trans-men) but not to men and not to trans-women.

I have more specific reasons based on what a good friend has told me recently about her situation, but it's not my story to present.

I don't know as many male couples, so, while the results don't surprise me, I don't have the same supportive material regarding gay men. But I have been to a couple drag shows at gay bars and I noticed the audience was mostly gay men. The (relatively few) women in the crowd seemed to be straight friends supporting a friend who was performing or there with their gay male friend.
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50% of trans-inclusive straight men would rather enter a homosexual relationship with a transman (who wouldn't want that relationship unless they are accepted as being a man) rather than a straight relationship with someone who looks like a woman, and you don't think that is a bit odd? My guess is that a lot of the respondents didn't quite understand the question. You'd be surprised how many people think transmen are m2f and transwomen are f2m.
There is that possibility. But what image comes to mind when you envision a trans-man? Not everyone thinks Buck Angel. They may think Eliot Page, whose appearance is not super-masculine and many straight men probably still regard as "cute." In an actual relationship, the fact that one partner may actually perceive the other as female rather than male is likely to cause problems at some point, especially as transition progresses. But for dating? Sure. I'd consider dating Eliot Page, but not Buck Angel.
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Old 15th September 2021, 10:10 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Maybe part of my inability to sypmathise with some of the arguments here is that I find a real big chunk of the people's faces I see every day don't have an earth shatteringly obvious gender. A lot do but plenty don't. It seems to me that there's a pretty large pool of people out there where I'm relying 100% on their presentation to assume their gender. So Prestige's 'males look like males, females look like females, you are just ignoring the truth' thing rings pretty hollow for me.
Other aspects of physique besides the face often betray sex as well, and in person I can see much more than just a face. I rarely see someone whose sex is actually ambiguous.
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Old 15th September 2021, 10:19 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'm not sure "like" is the important verb here. The word that really matters also has four letters, one of which is a k. It's very important to me, and I can only do it with females.

Yes, I know, there are other things I could do, and people even use the same word, but they aren't the same.

Wanting to do that thing, accepting no substitutes, is not weird. It also doesn't require a chromosomal test.
Hmm- I'm pretty sure there are/will be plenty of males will try their luck (I think that's the word you you meant ;-) with TW, but they'll always be seen as lesser than actual women as long-term mates - even if saying that is frowned upon. Note that will be true even as surgeries get better and more TWs are closer to 'passing'.
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Old 15th September 2021, 10:33 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Maybe part of my inability to sypmathise with some of the arguments here is that I find a real big chunk of the people's faces I see every day don't have an earth shatteringly obvious gender. A lot do but plenty don't. It seems to me that there's a pretty large pool of people out there where I'm relying 100% on their presentation to assume their gender. So Prestige's 'males look like males, females look like females, you are just ignoring the truth' thing rings pretty hollow for me.
We don't assume their gender, we just see it as pointless and not a factor in how we treat people.
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Old 15th September 2021, 10:36 AM   #104
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The specter of the "Perfect to the point of being undetectable transperson" is one that both sides (as much as there are sides but you know what I mean) have brought up in different context multiple times, both as an argument for and against various trans concept.

It still doesn't address the basic dichotomy of a difference between X that presents as Y and X that presents as X that doesn't exist between X and Y.
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Old 15th September 2021, 10:45 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Maybe part of my inability to sypmathise with some of the arguments here is that I find a real big chunk of the people's faces I see every day don't have an earth shatteringly obvious gender. A lot do but plenty don't. It seems to me that there's a pretty large pool of people out there where I'm relying 100% on their presentation to assume their gender. So Prestige's 'males look like males, females look like females, you are just ignoring the truth' thing rings pretty hollow for me.
Try it in the bedroom, see what happens.
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Old 15th September 2021, 10:50 AM   #106
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Keep in mind how this particular subthread got started. EC posted a scientific paper where the author's expressed surprise that someone's genitals actually mattered in romantic relationships.

It wasn't about "how we treat people", except in a specific context. The fact that someone would be surprised that genitals matter, and would override other considerations, demonstrates just how out of touch with reality some people are.

Yeah, I might make a mistake about someone's sex when I meet them in an office or supermarket, but if they take their clothes off, I'll get it right darned near every time, and thinking it's important doesn't make me a bigot.
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Old 15th September 2021, 11:04 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Yeah, I might make a mistake about someone's sex when I meet them in an office or supermarket, but if they take their clothes off, I'll get it right darned near every time, and thinking it's important doesn't make me a bigot.
But that's the linguistic trap we've been lead into by mountains of mush-mouthed non-definitions and constant appeals to "Well it's complicated and personal preference... so it never has to make ANY logical congruent sense."

Nobody (unless maybe Boudicaa if she sticks her head back in the conversation) is going to argue (yet, like I said give it a few years) that preferring a sexual partner to have a specific genital structure makes you a bigot. Nobody is, yet, ready to plant their flag in "You have to like innies and outies the same" territory.

But what they ARE saying and arguing for is a set of definitions and standards for sex and gender where WHY it isn't a problem to pick sexual partners based on genitals can't be answered without directly contradicting yourself. And not in some "HAHA I caught you in a surface level contradiction now I declare you a hypocrite" way like the internet loves, but in actually functionally arguing against your own point on a deep and base directly contradictory level.

Again, and this whole concept just infuriates people for some reason, it's the "You're not saying it, but the arguments you are making is saying it" thing.

Let me put it this way. Ever run into one of the hardcore "Hate the sin, not the sinner" people? They aren't as common as they used to be as people of their stripe have started to own their hatred as lot more in the last few years, but I'm sure they are still around. They were BIG about a decade or two back when gay rights was going through one of its peaks.

Did that argument ever really make sense to anybody? And be honest. Did "Oh I just hate some fundamental part of who you are, but that doesn't mean I hate you?" ever really feel true and honest as an argument? Did you ever encounter that argument and not feel there was no way they were going to maintain, even if they meant it and honestly wanted to, the wall between person and action they claimed they had built in the moral compass?

It's the same thing here. If the entire argument is that anything meaningful about sex and gender is 100% personally dictated BUT you then tack on some "Oh but don't worry that doesn't mean your personal personally personalling along choices about it will EVER be a problem I super-duper pinky swear in fact I'm now going to attack you for even being worried about" it doesn't pass the sniff test.
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Old 15th September 2021, 11:09 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Other aspects of physique besides the face often betray sex as well, and in person I can see much more than just a face. I rarely see someone whose sex is actually ambiguous.
I live in a diverse, progressive, and inclusive urban center. From time to time I do notice someone whose gender is not immediately apparent. Usually at the neighborhood bar where I'm a regular. I usually don't think about it for more than a second or two, because really who cares? I'm sure it would become readily apparent long before the actual bumping of uglies was raised as a possibility. But maybe not. Who knows?

I suspect that a lot of the strangers Lithrael sees are a lot less androgynous than they think. But it says a lot of good things about our society that it's not really important what someone's gender actually is, or whether closer examination is warranted.
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Old 15th September 2021, 11:28 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Perhaps the solution to prevent further Wi Spa incidents is to designate the former "women only" area to "no penis" area. This way people can adopt whatever label/gender/designation they want and those who do not wish to see a penis can avoid it.
I think that there is traction in this approach--to clearly and honestly identify what defines the exclusion's intent. Then it possibly becomes a little easier to decide if it is a reasonable exclusion. At least, it makes it harder to drag the matter into irrelevant topics by leaving the first question too vague.
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Old 15th September 2021, 11:29 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I think that there is traction in this approach--to clearly and honestly identify what defines the exclusion's intent. Then it possibly becomes a little easier to decide if it is a reasonable exclusion. At least, it makes it harder to drag the matter into irrelevant topics by leaving the first question too vague.
You'll never get past the "OMG so you're saying we have to set up genital inspectors" argument to get anywhere with that on a functional level, so any argumentative benefits are pointless.
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Old 15th September 2021, 11:51 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The chromosomal test isn't necessary. The primary and secondary sexual characteristics are already visible.

What if a hot-blooded hetero cisman gets attracted to - and turned on by - a beautiful, confident woman at the next table to him in a restaurant? And then he overhears that his hormones have actually been stirred into action by...... a transwoman?!

Should he perhaps march over to her and demand an apology for making him feel so stupid and cheated in his now-wasted lust for her?


I can't think this whole line of argument is going to end very well (logically-speaking) for you. But I'm sure you'll tell me how my example is entirely unrelated in every way to what you're describing...


(PS: If you want another counterexample to do the same treatment to.... how about a hetero cisman starting to date a ciswoman; they are both really into each other, and after several dates the man's thoughts turn to sex (intercourse) - something which to him is an extremely important component of any relationship - but it's at this point the woman tells him that because of serious complications from endometriosis, she's unable to have intercourse. Should our man feel cheated and slighted that this woman has - somehow, and in his eyes - misrepresented herself to him from the get-go?)
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Old 15th September 2021, 11:58 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I suspect that a lot of the strangers Lithrael sees are a lot less androgynous than they think. But it says a lot of good things about our society that it's not really important what someone's gender actually is, or whether closer examination is warranted.
I don't think it's true that it's not important, and until we transcend our biological impulses (not in my lifetime), I don't think that will ever be the case. Rather, I think you're actually describing it wrong. It's not that gender doesn't matter (because, bumping uglies), it's that nonconformity isn't punished. And I would agree that this is a good thing.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:02 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't think it's true that it's not important, and until we transcend our biological impulses (not in my lifetime), I don't think that will ever be the case. Rather, I think you're actually describing it wrong. It's not that gender doesn't matter (because, bumping uglies), it's that nonconformity isn't punished. And I would agree that this is a good thing.
I gotta say the question of bumping uglies is almost always completely irrelevant to my day to day social interactions. Especially with strangers. Especially when there's no interaction, it's just some rando in the supermarket or walking down the street who I'm not even going to speak to or remember in a few moments anyway.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:03 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
they are both really into each other, and after several dates the man's thoughts turn to sex (intercourse) -
I'm using a phone, so detailed answers are difficult, but I wanted to say one thing.

The idea that a man's thoughts would only turn to sexual intercourse after several dates is highly unrealistic.

And it does affect the answers to your other questions. More later.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:03 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I think that there is traction in this approach--to clearly and honestly identify what defines the exclusion's intent. Then it possibly becomes a little easier to decide if it is a reasonable exclusion. At least, it makes it harder to drag the matter into irrelevant topics by leaving the first question too vague.

No, because it doesn't address the core issue here, which is actually: in which changing room should transwomen change in this sort of facility? Or should transwomen simply not be welcome to visit (or perhaps not even permitted to visit) these sorts of facilities?

Both of these require actual answers. And real-world answers (eg no magical-mythical-separate-locked-cubicle-for-each-individual suggestions).


PS: Boy (or, uhm, transboy), this thread is every bit as toxic as I remember. Still with the "boys dressing up as girls" and "trans-allies either a) not giving a damn about ciswomen's rights*, b) nothing but cis men deigning to tell ciswomen what they should think*, or c) flat-out misogynists*. Sceptics' forum LMFAO

* And of course the rather large elephant in the room here is the significant proportion of ciswomen on every single body which has 1) considered transgenderism from the PoV of global medical science, 2) legislated transgender rights in almost every progressive democracy, and 3) considered the implementation and enaction of transgender rights laws in all those jurisdictions. Funny ol' World, eh....?
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:03 PM   #116
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Why don't these questions get asked the other way?

Surely Transpeople are capable of making the exact same mistakes. You're telling me at no point in history has a transperson ever mistaken a cis-person for a trans-one? Do we worry about the existential crisis it causes them?
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:05 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No, because it doesn't address the core issue here, which is actually: in which changing room should transwomen change in this sort of facility? Or should transwomen simply not be welcome to visit (or perhaps not even permitted to visit) these sorts of facilities?

Both of these require actual answers. And real-world answers (eg no magical-mythical-separate-locked-cubicle-for-each-individual suggestions).
Well we're on the *checks notes* 3rd page of the *checks notes* 7th continuation of the *checks notes* just most recent version a thread about this question so if you have any ways to answer it please share it with the class.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:07 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'm using a phone, so detailed answers are difficult, but I wanted to say one thing.

The idea that a man's thoughts would only turn to sexual intercourse after several dates is highly unrealistic.

And it does affect the answers to your other questions. More later.

What difference? Let's suppose the man asks the woman to have sex with him on Date 1, to take it to that extreme. Tell me the difference between the woman in this scenario a) telling him she can't have sex with him because of the endo complications; vs b) telling him she can't have sex with him because she's a pre-op transwoman?
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:10 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well we're on the *checks notes* 3rd page of the *checks notes* 7th continuation of the *checks notes* just most recent version a thread about this question so if you have any ways to answer it please share it with the class.

The answer is that she should be able to use the women's changing rooms. But a) get some sort of risk assessment before gaining that right (which may not have been done here, perhaps), and b) for the establishment to make identification and apprehension as strong as reasonably possible (both as an up-front deterrent, and as a means of bringing any actual offenders to justice).

What's your answer?
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:11 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Why don't these questions get asked the other way?

Surely Transpeople are capable of making the exact same mistakes. You're telling me at no point in history has a transperson ever mistaken a cis-person for a trans-one? Do we worry about the existential crisis it causes them?

No. Because they themselves very probably do not. I certainly don't seem to see many of them complaining about it on "sceptics'" internet forums.
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