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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 15th September 2021, 12:14 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
The answer is that she should be able to use the women's changing rooms. But a) get some sort of risk assessment before gaining that right (which may not have been done here, perhaps), and b) for the establishment to make identification and apprehension as strong as reasonably possible (both as an up-front deterrent, and as a means of bringing any actual offenders to justice).

What's your answer?
My answer is... oh wait I'm sorry EmilyCat is already screaming about the risk of being raped.

My answer is I can't make everyone happy, give me a reason it should be you.

Less flippantly in an ideal world everything that doesn't literally require a penis or vagina would be gender neutral to the point that "transgender" would be a totally meaningless concept. It would be like like going around "self identifying" as a different blood type, the concept wouldn't even make sense.

Realistically on a practical level as things are now, bathrooms and things that are on that general level of privacy by preferred gender, changing rooms and things on that general level of privacy by biological sex. (Those are both VERY general rules of thumb, not any sort of hard and fast decrees from the almighty.) I still (honestly, truly, and with zero snark) haven't made my mind up about sports and sorta gravitate toward "whatever the fans want to watch" but again as I stated that is still a very open question for me.

No it's not perfect, not it doesn't make everyone happy, no it's not a permanent solution, yes there's still a crapton of special one exceptions I haven't accounted for, but that's the gist of it.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:14 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The chromosomal test isn't necessary. The primary and secondary sexual characteristics are already visible.
... though not always on display, and subject to alteration.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I gotta figure that number must be pretty close to zero.
Here is a time it happened. Here's another. And another.

Hows far away from 0 do you want it to go? r/AccidentalAlly

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Is that... is that even a thing?
Yes, that is actually a thing. It is not really all that uncommon. There are plenty of people who, like theprestige, think that it is always obvious from someone's looks what biological sex they are born with, and when learning that someone they perceive as a woman is trans, immediately assume that must mean they want to be a man. The opposite is also common.

Quote:
It seems more logical that a transphobe would tell a transwoman "you'll never be a woman!" than "you'll never be a man!"
It would be logical, if they were any good at guessing a person's sex at birth, but they're not. Which is the point.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:16 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
difficult question,
I don't think gender(being a variable) should override sex(being a constant) if they are in opposition to each other.
That's my simple off the cuff answer, I would have to think about it more to get to the truth of it though.
Thank you. Feel free to add more thoughts as you consider it.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:17 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

Nobody (unless maybe Boudicaa if she sticks her head back in the conversation) is going to argue (yet, like I said give it a few years) that preferring a sexual partner to have a specific genital structure makes you a bigot. Nobody is, yet, ready to plant their flag in "You have to like innies and outies the same" territory.
Unfortunately, there are plenty of folks making this argument - especially male "lesbians" who think same-sex attracted women (i.e. adult females) should have sex with them - e.g. check out this site. There have also been a number of article about the large number of obvious males turning up on lesbian dating apps.

There's definitely a push to make it 'same-gender' attraction and claim that same-sex attraction is a fetish.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:19 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Louden Wilde View Post
Unfortunately, there are plenty of folks making this argument - especially male "lesbians" who think same-sex attracted women (i.e. adult females) should have sex with them - e.g. check out this site. There have also been a number of article about the large number of obvious males turning up on lesbian dating apps.

There's definitely a push to make it 'same-gender' attraction and claim that same-sex attraction is a fetish.
So we're back to nutpicking again.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:19 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Louden Wilde View Post
Unfortunately, there are plenty of folks making this argument - especially male "lesbians" who think same-sex attracted women (i.e. adult females) should have sex with them - e.g. check out this site. There have also been a number of article about the large number of obvious males turning up on lesbian dating apps.

There's definitely a push to make it 'same-gender' attraction and claim that same-sex attraction is a fetish.
The whole "Hardy har I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body" thing is pathetic and I make no excuses for it.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:20 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
You're acting like this is a competition or something, it's not. You're taking both sides of a convo and getting annoyed by my imagined answers.
I will take a moment and apologize on behalf of the regular posters in this thread - on both sides of this discussion.

It's been a long and contentious thread, and to be fair, we've seen a lot of people come in with a "just asking" or "neutral" entry point, and then quickly fall down the hole into name-calling and labeling. So I think all of us - on both sides - are prickly.

That said, I might spend more time outside of this forum discussing this issue than some others, and I'm aware that a great many people have never really given it any thought beyond the assumption that we should treat people the way they want to be treated, and that people shouldn't be discriminated against or harmed due to their presentation. It's a shared starting point, and one I share as well.

But it gets a lot more complicated when you step beyond the very high level agreement of compassion and care. There are genuine conflicts involved, there are genuine risks.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:21 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Perhaps the solution to prevent further Wi Spa incidents is to designate the former "women only" area to "no penis" area. This way people can adopt whatever label/gender/designation they want and those who do not wish to see a penis can avoid it.
Works for me. Alternatively, we could also just make it the "female" area.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:23 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Works for me.
Again we can't get that past the "OMG so we're going to have to setup genital checkers!" argument.

I don't disagree with it per se, just that as anything beyond a thought experiment it's dead on arrival.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:24 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The whole "Hardy har I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body" thing is pathetic and I make no excuses for it.
IIRC notorious troll Graham Linehan was the one trying to make a stink about trans women using a lesbian dating app.

Turns out the somewhat niche app he was trolling was one that was explicitly accepting of trans and other queer women. I'm not sure what point is supposed to be made by marching into some self-selecting niche dating app and getting outraged that it is inclusive of exactly who they say they want to include.

This is like being shocked you walk into a gay bar and being hit on by a gay guy.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/02/2...obia-backlash/

Quote:
The dating app did not specifically name Linehan in its response, but tweeted: “Let’s make this clear: HER is an app for ALL WOMEN and queer folx. It is not our, nor anyone else’s place to question or invalidate another’s identity. We are here for ALL WOMEN, including the trans community.”
Be honest, had you ever heard of the "Her" dating app before this? I hadn't. Seeking out trans people in niche, trans friendly dating apps for the sole purpose of being outraged is deranged behavior.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:27 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This is like being shocked you walk into a gay bar and being hit on by a gay guy.
Yeah the difference is gay guys are different from straight guys and they admit it.

Transwomen are not different from women in anyway shape or form and you're a horrible person if you even entertain the idea that they might be.

You can't want inclusive spaces when your entire argument is you are not a special category.

This **** works both ways. If you're a woman and demand to be every where that woman are at well guess what, you're a woman and women will be anywhere you are at as well.

You can't demand a "niche" dating app free from everyone, but invite yourself into everyone space's because you identify as them.

Transgenderism can be this or it can be that, it can't be a semi-permeable membrane in a constant state of quantum flux.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:30 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah the difference is gay guys are different from straight guys.

Transwomen are not different from women in anyway shape or form and you're a horrible person if you even entertain the idea that they might be.

You can't want inclusive spaces when your entire argument is you are not a special category.

This **** works both ways. If you're a woman and demand to be everyone where woman are at well guess what, you're a woman and women will be anywhere you are at as well.
Nobody is demanding access to everywhere, just basic non-discrimination in public accommodations.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:30 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
The study is about whether people would date people whose primary and secondary sexual characteristics are not in perfect alignment with each other.

You don't think it is surprising that gay males are attracted to people who don't look like males, and lesbians are attraced to people who do?

50% of trans-inclusive straight men would rather enter a homosexual relationship with a transman (who wouldn't want that relationship unless they are accepted as being a man) rather than a straight relationship with someone who looks like a woman, and you don't think that is a bit odd? My guess is that a lot of the respondents didn't quite understand the question. You'd be surprised how many people think transmen are m2f and transwomen are f2m.
Back that train up a moment, please. If the transman has a VAGINA, it wouldn't be a homosexual relationship. And if the person that looks like a woman has a PENIS, it's not a straight relationship. That's the entire point here, and why the researchers are, in my opinion, idiots.

Sexual orientation is not about clothing and presentation. It's about SEX. People who like dicks like dicks, not vaginas. The overwhelming majority of them like dicks on people who look like they should have dicks. A small number of people who like dicks are willing to date people who don't look like they should have dicks, provided that they actually do have a dick.

The researchers were *surprised* that gay men were a lot less willing to date transmen (people who look like they should have dicks but actually have vaginas) and somewhat more willing to date transwomen (people who like like they should have a vagina, but actually have a dick).

The researchers are dumb, in my opinion, because they made the asinine assumption that sexual orientation has nothing to do with sex... and they were surprised to learn that sexual orientation actually does have to do with sex. Seems pretty obvious to me... after all, it's not called "gender identity orientation".
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:32 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Nobody is demanding access to everywhere, just basic non-discrimination in public accommodations.
What female spaces can transwomen not go into, under your standard?

If you can't name any it's a distinction without difference.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:33 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Keep in mind how this particular subthread got started. EC posted a scientific paper where the author's expressed surprise that someone's genitals actually mattered in romantic relationships.
I don't think the authors asked about genitals, but if you happen to know more because you happen to have access to the study behind its paywall, can I have a peek?
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:34 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What female spaces can transwomen not go into, under your standard?

If you can't name any it's a distinction without difference.
I'm not sure what you mean. The limitations of the civil rights act are pretty clear what counts as public accommodations and what isn't.

The TERF book club doesn't have to let any trans women in. Nobody is forced to date or have sex with anyone they don't like. The possibilities of private associations are only limited by your imagination.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:34 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Back that train up a moment, please. If the transman has a VAGINA, it wouldn't be a homosexual relationship. And if the person that looks like a woman has a PENIS, it's not a straight relationship. That's the entire point here, and why the researchers are, in my opinion, idiots.

Sexual orientation is not about clothing and presentation. It's about SEX. People who like dicks like dicks, not vaginas. The overwhelming majority of them like dicks on people who look like they should have dicks. A small number of people who like dicks are willing to date people who don't look like they should have dicks, provided that they actually do have a dick.

The researchers were *surprised* that gay men were a lot less willing to date transmen (people who look like they should have dicks but actually have vaginas) and somewhat more willing to date transwomen (people who like like they should have a vagina, but actually have a dick).

The researchers are dumb, in my opinion, because they made the asinine assumption that sexual orientation has nothing to do with sex... and they were surprised to learn that sexual orientation actually does have to do with sex. Seems pretty obvious to me... after all, it's not called "gender identity orientation".
PEOPLE LIKE GENITALS. Of all the things that shouldn't need a study.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:35 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
PEOPLE LIKE GENITALS. Of all the things that shouldn't need a study.
You are aware there are people who have less binary preferences in this regard, even outside the scope of trans identity.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:38 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm not sure what you mean. The limitations of the civil rights act are pretty clear what counts as public accommodations and what isn't.
I asked a simple question. You said transwomen aren't demanding to be let in all female only spaces, no siree.

I asked you name one exception.

Quote:
The TERF book club doesn't have to let any trans women in. Nobody is forced to date or have sex with anyone they don't like. The possibilities of private associations are only limited by your imagination.
Well we're back to the problem that for all your simping for them, apparently you're afraid when the revolution comes they'll forget that you were always one of the good ones, what you claim Transpeople want and what Transpeople actually seem to want ain't ever exactly been similar.

The one transperson that's been active in this thread called you a Transphobe same as me because you didn't accept she had a biological female penis. We're both sleeping on the same couch so I don't get where your moral high ground is coming from.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:39 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You are aware there are people who have less binary preferences in this regard, even outside the scope of trans identity.
Go outside. I know on the internet every 3rd person is a transgender asexual who's otherkin persona is a genderfluid who's into S&M but in real life it's waaaaay more meat and potatoes.

The real world is not playing the "How complicated can I be" game like Twitter is.

Most peoples sex/gender/gentilia preferences don't need a flowchart.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:39 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Nobody has to apologise for anything. For everybody it is true; either you like someone, or you don't.

But if someone insists that they need to subject someone to a chromosomal test before they can decide whether or not they like them, I think that is a bit weird.
And we're off into strawman territory.

Transgender identified females tend to pass better, because testosterone is a one-way street. Once those hair follicles and lower voice are triggered, they stay that way permanently. Which is also, by the way, why so very few transgender identified males pass. Some few do, but they're usually those who have heavily invested in facial feminization surgeries. which maybe ought to give you a clue there - male and female skulls are different.

And even then, when a transgender identified person does manage to pass, if the equipment they have is not what's expected, I think the prospective partner has every right to reject them. It's a bit like going to the store and picking out a nice cake... and then when you get home you find that it's actually meatloaf and the frosting is mashed potatoes. It doesn't really matter how much it *looks like* a cake, it's still not going to go over well for desert.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:41 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The idea that anyone has a duty to find another attractive is, and has always been, a fringe theory that nobody really need take seriously. Whether it's weirdos advocating political lesbianism or cranks talking about the "cotton ceiling", I don't really see why this merits any serious consideration other than to try to smear a broader civil rights movement with a lunatic fringe.

The dating police aren't coming.
It's a surprisingly prevalent and frequent form of "fringe theory". You keep dismissing it based on what you think 'ought to be', rather than acknowledging that it happens rather a lot.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:41 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
It's a surprisingly prevalent and frequent form of "fringe theory". You keep dismissing it based on what you think 'ought to be', rather than acknowledging that it happens rather a lot.
I'm guessing this is another one of your "just trust me bro" assertions?
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:42 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
The number of transphobes telling transwomen "you'll never be a man!" seems to suggest otherwise.
What? This makes no sense. Transwomen are male.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:42 PM   #145
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We're getting dangerously close to the whole "Oh so you're saying it's okay to brutally murder a transgender person if you get them home and they have the wrong genitals!" thing.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:44 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Go outside. I know on the internet every 3rd person is a transgender asexual who's otherkin persona is a genderfluid who's into S&M but in real life it's waaaaay more meat and potatoes.

The real world is not playing the "How complicated can I be" game like Twitter is.
Yes, the queer community is a tiny minority. It explains why they've been very easy to **** on for so long. There are even less trans or bi or genderqueer people than there are gay and lesbian people, who are already only a tiny slice of the human population.

I suppose it's a sign of progress that smaller and smaller minorities of the population are considered acceptable to discriminate against, but I don't really see the lack of numbers being much of a good excuse to do so.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:44 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm not asking if it's okay that I'll date a woman with a vagina but not one with a penis. I'm asking how under the argument being made it's the correct answer.
You have the right to only date women with vaginas... but it probably means that you're a transphobe with a genital fetish. Get with the program!
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:45 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, the queer community is a tiny minority. It explains why they've been very easy to **** on for so long. There are even less trans or bi or genderqueer people than there are gay and lesbian people, who are already only a tiny slice of the human population.

I suppose it's a sign of progress that smaller and smaller minorities of the population are considered acceptable to discriminate against, but I don't really see the lack of numbers being much of a good excuse to do so.
It's easy when you lump everyone who isn't cis/straight into the same category.

Just because they all share a flag doesn't make the entire spectrum of non-traditional sexual demographics one single unified force.

I'm going to out on a limb here and suggest the "I have a literal biological lady penis" demographic isn't exactly huge.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:45 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You have the right to only date women with vaginas... but it probably means that you're a transphobe with a genital fetish. Get with the program!
Somewhere out there exist some super avant-garde gender benders who won't let us squares sit at their cool kid table.

If you try real hard, you may find that it actually doesn't matter at all.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:46 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
What if a hot-blooded hetero cisman gets attracted to - and turned on by - a beautiful, confident woman at the next table to him in a restaurant? And then he overhears that his hormones have actually been stirred into action by...... a transwoman?!

Should he perhaps march over to her and demand an apology for making him feel so stupid and cheated in his now-wasted lust for her?
What a weird scenario! Presumably he's just put the whole matter aside and get on with his meal. Just as he'd do if he overheard she was a Republican, or married, or underage, or a prostitute, or whatever else happens to be a turn-off for him.

It's not like she brought him all the way into the bedroom, then revealed her penis, and now he's legitimately upset that he wasted a lot of time and emotional energy on a bait-and-switch.

Ideally, both partners would talk about intercourse, where they're coming from and what they're looking for, long before it ever gets to the bedroom. And in that scenario, I think it'd be totally reasonable and appropriate for the hetero man to say, I'm sorry, but my sexual attraction does not lie, and I'm simply not attracted to you in that way. (Assuming that's how he actually feels. And I also think it's totally reasonable to be sexually attracted to someone who successfully passes, and have that attraction evaporate once the object of their affections isn't passing anymore.

Do you not think these are reasonable things?

Quote:
I can't think this whole line of argument is going to end very well (logically-speaking) for you. But I'm sure you'll tell me how my example is entirely unrelated in every way to what you're describing... : thumbsup :
Do you seriously believe that your sexual attraction is determined by your partner's self-identity, rather than your own perception of your partner?


Quote:
(PS: If you want another counterexample to do the same treatment to.... how about a hetero cisman starting to date a ciswoman; they are both really into each other, and after several dates the man's thoughts turn to sex (intercourse) - something which to him is an extremely important component of any relationship - but it's at this point the woman tells him that because of serious complications from endometriosis, she's unable to have intercourse. Should our man feel cheated and slighted that this woman has - somehow, and in his eyes - misrepresented herself to him from the get-go?)
Maybe.

People go into relationships with a lot of assumptions and expectations. A promising start doesn't always lead to a satisfying conclusion. A lot of people start slow and broach various subjects slowly, feeling out the boundaries and potential of the relationship over several encounters. Things often start casually, with few demands, and get more serious and (demanding) as more is learned and compatibility is gradually established.

So it depends. The scenario you describe sounds like they've reached a point in the relationship where it makes sense to talk more openly about sexual expectations. In that scenario, if the dude is mad it's because he's been putting the cart before the horse, and assuming the relationship was going to proceed in a certain way before he had full information. There's all kinds of reasons why a relationship might not end in sex. Dude shouldn't be getting ahead of himself like that.

On the other hand, if he's been proposing sex for a while, and instead of shutting him down she's been deferring the issue and going on more dates like eventually she'll thaw... then maybe he's got a legit reason to be a little annoyed.

But like Meadmaker said, remember where this sidebar came from: People being "surprised" that heterosexual men aren't often sexually attracted to men who identify as women. Men who pass as women, sure, right up to the point where they stop passing. What does your logic have to say about that? Do those professions of surprise make sense to you?
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:46 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
So what if someone thinks less of you for refusing to date trans people?
It matters when lesbians are being harassed, threatened, called names, and labeled as bigots and transphobes because they don't want to have sex with the penises of transwomen.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:47 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The whole "Hardy har I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body" thing is pathetic and I make no excuses for it.
But (sadly) it's also a logical extension of the ideology. If you're pushing the idea that gender is more important than sex - e.g. TWAW (in the same way that black women are women- a statement I've seen a lot on twitter), sex is "assigned" at birth, you're pretty much obligated to think that way.

I've seen a few a interesting threads from a 'de-transitioner' who is critical of
current activists and the ideology- here's one she did suggesting that the trans-community and clinics needs to prepare transitioning for the reality - one quote:
Nobody can (or should want to) force anyone to date/sleep with them. If the T really cared about their own, they'd stop lying to young trans people and would instead prepare them for reality.

Because whether they like it or not, reality is exactly what they're going to face.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:50 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Louden Wilde View Post
Unfortunately, there are plenty of folks making this argument - especially male "lesbians" who think same-sex attracted women (i.e. adult females) should have sex with them - e.g. check out this site. There have also been a number of article about the large number of obvious males turning up on lesbian dating apps.

There's definitely a push to make it 'same-gender' attraction and claim that same-sex attraction is a fetish.
Stonewall UK surreptitiously re-defined same-sex attraction as same-gender attraction, as pointed out before.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:50 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
It would be logical, if they were any good at guessing a person's sex at birth, but they're not. Which is the point.
I don't think you've got an actual representative sample going on here, both in terms of people confused about other people's sex, and in terms of trans people who confuse others about their "birth sex", as you put it. Most transmen don't look like Buck Angel. Most transwomen don't look like Leyna Bloom. Usually it's still apparent. Yes, not always. But usually. A few examples of it happening don't demonstrate this is anything more than the exception to the rule.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:55 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Louden Wilde View Post

I've seen a few a interesting threads from a 'de-transitioner' who is critical of
current activists and the ideology- here's one she did suggesting that the trans-community and clinics needs to prepare transitioning for the reality - one quote:
Nobody can (or should want to) force anyone to date/sleep with them. If the T really cared about their own, they'd stop lying to young trans people and would instead prepare them for reality.

Because whether they like it or not, reality is exactly what they're going to face.
Watson is brilliant. I posted an interview Benjamin Boyce did with her a while back.
She recently posted this video about her detransition, the consequences of 'affirmation only' and treating exploratory psychotherapy as conversion therapy.

https://youtu.be/Mj9dImEgNqI?t=465
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:57 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Other aspects of physique besides the face often betray sex as well, and in person I can see much more than just a face. I rarely see someone whose sex is actually ambiguous.
There are some people who are pretty truly androgynous. But not many.

It's more common in some ethnicities than in others. My understanding is shaky on this, but I glean that a good chunk of the tertiary sex characteristics (things correlated with one sex or the other, but not directly triggered as a result of sex) are largely the result of sexual selection. Thinks like height and foot size and even brow ridge vary by ethnicity. There are larger differences between males and females in, for instance, Scandinavia, than there are in, say, Vietnam. It's a fair bit easier for many people of Asian descent to present as androgynous than for people of Northern European or Central African descent to do so.

There are also cultural elements that can mask sex, even where those signals are clear. If someone is wearing a burka or niqab, all you really have to go on is the fact that those are outfits associated with a *highly* sex-segregated culture, and assume that the person wearing it must be female. But it's not like you can actually tell - it could just as easily be a male under there.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:58 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
There are some people who are pretty truly androgynous. But not many.

It's more common in some ethnicities than in others. My understanding is shaky on this, but I glean that a good chunk of the tertiary sex characteristics (things correlated with one sex or the other, but not directly triggered as a result of sex) are largely the result of sexual selection. Thinks like height and foot size and even brow ridge vary by ethnicity. There are larger differences between males and females in, for instance, Scandinavia, than there are in, say, Vietnam. It's a fair bit easier for many people of Asian descent to present as androgynous than for people of Northern European or Central African descent to do so.

There are also cultural elements that can mask sex, even where those signals are clear. If someone is wearing a burka or niqab, all you really have to go on is the fact that those are outfits associated with a *highly* sex-segregated culture, and assume that the person wearing it must be female. But it's not like you can actually tell - it could just as easily be a male under there.
Lol

Maybe calipers might help.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:00 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
I don't think the authors asked about genitals, but if you happen to know more because you happen to have access to the study behind its paywall, can I have a peek?
They talked of transwomen and transmen, but not about genitals.

Yeah, right.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:01 PM   #159
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Again the fantasy that one day some sort of transgender Gabriel's Horn is going to sound and suddenly it's going to be revealed that our coworkers, our neighbors, our friends, our family members, the person you've been married to for 40 years why they've ALL BEEN TRANSGENDERS ALL ALONG and they were so good at it you never knew is really important to people

Yeah just like that aunt or uncle we all had with the "roommate" coming out as gay came as a total surprise to all of us as well.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:02 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's easy when you lump everyone who isn't cis/straight into the same category.

Just because they all share a flag doesn't make the entire spectrum of non-traditional sexual demographics one single unified force. .
For sure - LGB- all have in common that have some same-sex attraction - and certainly a sizeable chunk of them are not so big on the idea of the expanding acronym to accommodate paraphilias.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm going to out on a limb here and suggest the "I have a literal biological lady penis" demographic isn't exactly huge.
Pretty small, but I suspect the messaging (the 'sex is a spectrum' nonsense, etc.) is not helping in this regard (you'll get piled on if you suggest in a large twitter thread that women don't have penises), and there are also likely a subset of dudes who don't believe, but happy to try to use it as to their advantage.
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