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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 16th September 2021, 09:38 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't see how the arguments for excluding trans people couldn't be used in the exact same way to argue for segregation by citing black crime rates.
I'm not comparing black people to transpeople, I'm comparing them to men.

Again remember this entire argument exists only because "Men" as predatory monsters that women need a "safe space" from exists.

I'm not arguing who gets into the women's safe spaces.
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:45 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
That is logically sound.
I reject the argument that segregating bathrooms is a "safety" issue.

It is a Privacy issue, based upon community standards.

A man who exposes his penis in the presence of a woman or girl outside of very specific sexual or medical circumstances is a pervert in any context. This has been and remains to be the community standard of indecent behavior throughout the lifetimes of every poster on this forum.

Changing the womens' name from Ellen to Ellis does not magically transform this behavior into something acceptable.

Wow. Straight out of the playbook of Reefer Madness. Reactionary bollocks intended to scaremonger and demonise. For shame.

(And the final sentence completes the picture: transgender people are apparently nothing more than people who "choose" to identify as a gender other than that they've been assigned at birth. Oh, plus all transwomen who want to use women's changing/bathroom facilities are "perverts". Jesus.)
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:46 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm not comparing black people to transpeople, I'm comparing them to men.

Again remember this entire argument exists only because "Men" as predatory monsters that women need a "safe space" from exists.

I'm not arguing who gets into the women's safe spaces.
Why not Women-only elevators, offices, restaurants, alleyways, etc...?
The arguments, as ST points out, are based upon the same logic.
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:48 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm not comparing black people to transpeople, I'm comparing them to men.

Again remember this entire argument exists only because "Men" as predatory monsters that women need a "safe space" from exists.

I'm not arguing who gets into the women's safe spaces.

Then go tell your own legislators - who, I'm very confident, understand this issue an awful lot better than you do, and who will have sought expert advice and consultation from all interested parties - who are indeed granting transgender people these rights (with caveats attached, of course).

Or would you just handwave that inconvenient truth away with the ridiculous "policy capture" mantra?
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:50 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Wow. Straight out of the playbook of Reefer Madness. Reactionary bollocks intended to scaremonger and demonise. For shame.

(And the final sentence completes the picture: transgender people are apparently nothing more than people who "choose" to identify as a gender other than that they've been assigned at birth. Oh, plus all transwomen who want to use women's changing/bathroom facilities are "perverts". Jesus.)
Actually, the penis I had in mind when I wrote that post was my own.
Is there any reason I should not have the privlidge of showering at my local Gymnasium without risk of exposing my penis to a woman or girl whom I do not know?
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:52 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm not comparing black people to transpeople, I'm comparing them to men.

Again remember this entire argument exists only because "Men" as predatory monsters that women need a "safe space" from exists.

I'm not arguing who gets into the women's safe spaces.
It's a bit of an off topic tangent, but I often find myself thinking about the "women's only" railcars seen in some countries, and other more extensive forms of gender/sex segregation in the name of safety from male aggression.

I wonder how much of this is simply a cope to deal with a society that is totally unwilling and/or unable to deal with male sexual violence and misbehavior. To my mind, the obviously superior solution is to have a society that sufficiently punishes or otherwise discourages subway groping that such separation is not necessary, but in the absence of such a rigorous cultural expectation, I suppose you have to make other arrangements.

That's a long way to say I often see these sex segregated places not so much as a triumph of feminism, but rather a sign of failure. They are a resignation to the fact that nothing really can be done about routine sexual violence/harassment, so instead society has to use these crutches.

I suppose this is somewhat on topic, but not really. It's not really a question, thanks for letting me dump out my brain here.
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:54 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Actually, the penis I had in mind when I wrote that post was my own.
Is there any reason I should not have the privlidge of showering at my local Gymnasium without risk of exposing my penis to a woman or girl whom I do not know?

Then you should have written clearly that you were only talking about your own penis (wow, we're in weird territory here).

And there are so many nested negatives in that sentence where you talk about "having the privlidge" (privilege?) that it's very difficult indeed to figure out what you actually mean to say. Would you be able to re-phrase it in simpler terms?
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:55 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's a bit of an off topic tangent, but I often find myself thinking about the "women's only" railcars seen in some countries, and other more extensive forms of gender/sex segregation in the name of safety from male aggression.
Okay. Do you see the definition of "woman" to be anywhere in the solution to these railcars?
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:56 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay. Do you see the definition of "woman" to be anywhere in the solution to these railcars?
Not really.
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:58 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Then you should have written clearly that you were only talking about your own penis (wow, we're in weird territory here).

And there are so many nested negatives in that sentence where you talk about "having the privlidge" (privilege?) that it's very difficult indeed to figure out what you actually mean to say. Would you be able to re-phrase it in simpler terms?
The statement (sans misspelled word) is clear enough.
What compelling argument do you have for insisting that women be allowed into a mens' showering area? Other than rebranding Women as Men?
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Old 16th September 2021, 10:06 AM   #251
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By the way, it appears to me that an awful lot of the scaremongering taking place within this thread is predicated on the breezy belief that if/when transwomen are granted access to certain women-only spaces, this will open the door to hetero cismen masquerading as transwomen in order to do their filthy business in those women-only spaces.

Among many in this thread, this seems to be pretty much an automatic assumption of what will happen. But, again, what does the real-world evidence show? Well, in countries such as canada and (in a limited manner) the UK, there's no evidence at all of cismen trying to "game the system" in this manner. On top of that, I suspect that psychiatrists and psychologists might point out that it's rather unlikely that a hot-blooded hetero cisman would want to undergo the perceived (and, most likely, internalised) emasculation of declaring himself to be a transwoman.

Of course, it's an easy (and lazy) weapon to use in a fact-lite debate: "Oh, I'm concerned enough about "genuine" () transwomen accessing these facilities; but in a self-ID regime the far greater menace will come from hetero cismen declaring themselves to be transwomen - meaning that in practice every single male will be able to access these spaces if he so desires". It's just rather a shame for that argument that the real-world data (so far) suggests otherwise...
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Old 16th September 2021, 10:09 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Not really.
*Makes the 'Get There Faster' motion with my hand"
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Old 16th September 2021, 10:11 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The statement (sans misspelled word) is clear enough.
What compelling argument do you have for insisting that women be allowed into a mens' showering area? Other than rebranding Women as Men?

Ah there you go again with "rebranding". You don't believe that transmen are experiencing a valid condition, do you?

And, by the way, my answer is: as a hetero cisman I would have no problem whatsoever with a transman using a men-only space in my presence. I would expect the transman in question to take as much care as possible to show consideration - eg to have a towel round genital areas when changing and walking around, to use the end shower cubicle if at all possible, and so on. And I would without doubt report the transman to the management of the facility if he was behaving in an inconsiderate/provocative/inappropriate manner wrt his transgender identity. Otherwise, absolutely fine.


ETA: Oh I see - in your original post, where you wrote "...to a woman or girl whom I do not know", you meant to write "...to a transman or transboy whom I do not know". Right?

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Old 16th September 2021, 10:14 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Makes the 'Get There Faster' motion with my hand"
I don't get it.

Like I said in my long post, it's an off topic tangent. There's no point really. I'm not working towards one here, at least, beyond the basic notion that gender segregated spaces generally strike me as a tacit acknowledgement that a given society has generally failed to address root causes of violence/harassment.
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Old 16th September 2021, 10:17 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't get it.

Like I said in my long post, it's an off topic tangent. There's no point really. I'm not working towards one here, at least, beyond the basic notion that gender segregated spaces generally strike me as a tacit acknowledgement that a given society has generally failed to address root causes of violence/harassment.
The ultimate root cause of violence is human nature. There is no solution to that. It can be mitigated, and sex segregation (not gender segregation) is one of the tools to do that, but it cannot be eliminated.
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Old 16th September 2021, 10:19 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't get it.

Like I said in my long post, it's an off topic tangent. There's no point really. I'm not working towards one here, at least, beyond the basic notion that gender segregated spaces generally strike me as a tacit acknowledgement that a given society has generally failed to address root causes of violence/harassment.
Women Restrooms = Women's Railcars.

And it's not "off topic." You just want to keep the discussion on the one arbitrary level where you think you don't have the burden of proof.

Your argument is

"We have to discuss this one arbitrary point of segregation!"
"What about the points of segregation above and below that point?"
"THOSE ARE OFF TOPIC!"
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Old 16th September 2021, 10:21 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The ultimate root cause of violence is human nature. There is no solution to that. It can be mitigated, and sex segregation (not gender segregation) is one of the tools to do that, but it cannot be eliminated.
There seems to be an awful lot of variation. Some places an unattended woman showing a bit of ankle is open invite to be mob raped, in other places it's not uncommon for there to be coed nude spaces. Hard to chalk that all up to human nature.
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Old 16th September 2021, 10:25 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There seems to be an awful lot of variation. Some places an unattended woman showing a bit of ankle is open invite to be mob raped, in other places it's not uncommon for there to be coed nude spaces. Hard to chalk that all up to human nature.
Actually, it's pretty easy, if you understand human nature.
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Old 16th September 2021, 10:29 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There seems to be an awful lot of variation. Some places an unattended woman showing a bit of ankle is open invite to be mob raped, in other places it's not uncommon for there to be coed nude spaces. Hard to chalk that all up to human nature.
And like I said, it can be mitigated. Western countries do a reasonable job in that respect, showing ankle won't get a woman raped.

But some of the cultural rules necessary to make something like a coed nude space safe require a kind of cultural uniformity and cohesion that, frankly, large multicultural countries like the US cannot achieve. There is no path from here to there. There is no way to create such a unified culture in a country like the US without doing stuff that, quite frankly, is a cure far worse than the disease. Given that reality, maintaining sex segregated spaces makes a lot of sense.
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Old 16th September 2021, 10:35 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
hell, the crime and race statistics actually exist, which is more than the trans bathroom panic mongers ever had.

I must admit that I was among those who thought there would be a lot more voyeurism following the liberalization of trans access laws. I thought a lot more men would be caught dressing up as women to gain access for peeping. Some of that has, indeed, happened, but not much.

A much bigger problem has been in cases where institutions have introduced unisex facilities, with minimal individual private spaces.

Be that as it may, I think it's wrong to say, or imply, that there is no harm if there is no crime. I think the loss of modesty/privacy constitutes harm in and of itself.

The degree of harm is debatable. I think there are a lot more people willing to compromise on bathroom access than changing rooms due to the perception that the degree of privacy lost is smaller.
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Old 16th September 2021, 10:37 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I must admit that I was among those who thought there would be a lot more voyeurism following the liberalization of trans access laws. I thought a lot more men would be caught dressing up as women to gain access for peeping. Some of that has, indeed, happened, but not much.

A much bigger problem has been in cases where institutions have introduced unisex facilities, with minimal individual private spaces.

Be that as it may, I think it's wrong to say, or imply, that there is no harm if there is no crime. I think the loss of modesty/privacy constitutes harm in and of itself.

The degree of harm is debatable. I think there are a lot more people willing to compromise on bathroom access than changing rooms due to the perception that the degree of privacy lost is smaller.
I imagine that many, if not most, would opt for personal privacy over communal single sex/gender arrangements if that were actually an option. I recall my years taking high school gym that only had large communal showers. Since showering was not mandatory, I do not recall a single instance in which they were ever used. Students preferred leaving the class sweaty rather than bathe in front of their peers.

Generally speaking, we would probably be better off if more effort was made to accommodate the desire for individual bodily autonomy and privacy.

That's a long way of saying I recognize the desire for modesty is a valid concern worth respecting, but I don't see how sex segregated communal spaces are a good way to accomplish this.
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Old 16th September 2021, 10:41 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Ah there you go again with "rebranding". You don't believe that transmen are experiencing a valid condition, do you?

And, by the way, my answer is: as a hetero cisman I would have no problem whatsoever with a transman using a men-only space in my presence. I would expect the transman in question to take as much care as possible to show consideration - eg to have a towel round genital areas when changing and walking around, to use the end shower cubicle if at all possible, and so on. And I would without doubt report the transman to the management of the facility if he was behaving in an inconsiderate/provocative/inappropriate manner wrt his transgender identity. Otherwise, absolutely fine.


ETA: Oh I see - in your original post, where you wrote "...to a woman or girl whom I do not know", you meant to write "...to a transman or transboy whom I do not know". Right?
Your 'ETA" indicates that you completely agree that it is "rebranding".

As to whether or not you are comfortable with women and girls sharing your shower space. Is that the most compelling argument you have for insisting that I do so?
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Old 16th September 2021, 10:49 AM   #263
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Outside of "branding" being a scare word and "identity" being a sacrosanct inarguable fact, what's the goddamn difference?
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Old 16th September 2021, 11:02 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I recall my years taking high school gym that only had large communal showers. Since showering was not mandatory, I do not recall a single instance in which they were ever used. Students preferred leaving the class sweaty rather than bathe in front of their peers.
This has come up many times, but it still leaves me saying, "Kids these days. "

(Just in case there's someone who hasn't heard it a billion times, we had the same showers and the same rules, and we all took showers after gym class.)
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Old 16th September 2021, 11:05 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Why not Women-only elevators, offices, restaurants, alleyways, etc...?
The arguments, as ST points out, are based upon the same logic.
No. Don't fall for the trickery. As I said in the previous installment:
Men's and women's restrooms have been separate and equal just fine, for a long time now. Men's and women's sports leagues have been separate and equal just fine. There's lots of gender segregation that's been separate and equal just fine for almost everyone.

And even today you're not saying that the segregation should be abolished. Rather, the trans petition is that the segregation be upheld, but that they should be permitted to transcend it if they wish.

So I think your concerns about separate but equal are a red herring.

Too, not all prejudice is inherently bad. Not all prejudice needs to be prejudicially dismissed. We are rightly* prejudiced against the idea of men and women in the same sports leagues. Separate but equal sports leagues for the two sexes is in fact the right way to "appease" that prejudice. And it has the track record to prove it.

The problem with transwomen in women's sports leagues is that their claim to separation is contrafactual. A man claiming to be a woman does not change any of the underlying biological and physical facts of their existence. None of the reasons that justify the prejudice against this go away just because the transwoman says they'd rather compete as a woman.

"We segregate blacks because they're subhuman." Well, that turns out to be evil and wrong.

"We segregate women at the polling booth and in the board room because they're subhuman." Well, that also turns out to be evil and wrong.

"We segregate women in sports because of the significant biological disparity between the two genders. This has economic and safety implications that are impossible to ignore. Segregation along gender lines is in fact the optimal solution for all parties." Well, that turns out to be entirely correct.
The analogy to racial segregation is introduced because of the apparently insurmountable difficulty in arguing against sex-based segregation on its own terms. There are biological realities of sex that are not analogous to anything in race-based discrimination or gender-based (misogynistic) discrimination.

Don't be fooled by ST's attempt at analogy. The two things aren't actually analogous.

And really, you should probably have suspected as much the moment you saw an analogy being deployed, rather than an argument about the thing as such.
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Old 16th September 2021, 11:14 AM   #266
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The other issue is despite so many attempts at retcons the truth is man/male and woman/female were synonyms for most the history we're talking about. And male/female were always the more clinic term so we tended to call things on a day to day level "a woman's bathroom" instead of a "female bathroom" and "woman's basketball" instead of "female basketball."

So now we get the "Well I define as a woman, not a female, ergo I use the women's bathroom" thing. No it's the woman/female bathroom because those words meant the same thing in that context when that term was created.
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Old 16th September 2021, 11:21 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No. Don't fall for the trickery. As I said in the previous installment:
Men's and women's restrooms have been separate and equal just fine, for a long time now. Men's and women's sports leagues have been separate and equal just fine. There's lots of gender segregation that's been separate and equal just fine for almost everyone.

And even today you're not saying that the segregation should be abolished. Rather, the trans petition is that the segregation be upheld, but that they should be permitted to transcend it if they wish.

So I think your concerns about separate but equal are a red herring.

Too, not all prejudice is inherently bad. Not all prejudice needs to be prejudicially dismissed. We are rightly* prejudiced against the idea of men and women in the same sports leagues. Separate but equal sports leagues for the two sexes is in fact the right way to "appease" that prejudice. And it has the track record to prove it.

The problem with transwomen in women's sports leagues is that their claim to separation is contrafactual. A man claiming to be a woman does not change any of the underlying biological and physical facts of their existence. None of the reasons that justify the prejudice against this go away just because the transwoman says they'd rather compete as a woman.

"We segregate blacks because they're subhuman." Well, that turns out to be evil and wrong.

"We segregate women at the polling booth and in the board room because they're subhuman." Well, that also turns out to be evil and wrong.

"We segregate women in sports because of the significant biological disparity between the two genders. This has economic and safety implications that are impossible to ignore. Segregation along gender lines is in fact the optimal solution for all parties." Well, that turns out to be entirely correct.
The analogy to racial segregation is introduced because of the apparently insurmountable difficulty in arguing against sex-based segregation on its own terms. There are biological realities of sex that are not analogous to anything in race-based discrimination or gender-based (misogynistic) discrimination.

Don't be fooled by ST's attempt at analogy. The two things aren't actually analogous.

And really, you should probably have suspected as much the moment you saw an analogy being deployed, rather than an argument about the thing as such.
I was addressing only a slice of the issue. And doing so in a manner which- I thought- was blatantly sarcastic.

Arguments that rely on the "safety" of women who might find themselves alone with Men all are based upon the same premise. Which is why I reject that argument as a fundament for maintaining separate Womens' and Mens' changing facilities.
I support segregating the areas, however, based upon privacy concerns.
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Old 16th September 2021, 11:28 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post

And really, you should probably have suspected as much the moment you saw an analogy being deployed, rather than an argument about the thing as such.
An analogy would be, activists demand that black males or gay males are allowed into women's facilities, women object, and activists scream that this is because they are being racist or homophobic. I don't believe that anyone really thinks that the objection is due to trans people rather than male people. It's just a lazy and dishonest slur to bully women into submission.

Of course, the objection really comes down to refusing to accept that being male has no more relevance to being a woman than does being black or gay, that is, to act as though sex is entirely erased by self identity. This is a contested philosophical/ideological position, but this fact can't be admitted because the analogy rides on assuming the truth of what is contested.
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Old 16th September 2021, 11:38 AM   #269
dann
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is an easy one. I don't even have to tell you about the bedroom. You're about to tell me.

I am?! I still have no idea what you are talking about.

Quote:
Consider these propositions, and tell me whether you agree or disagree:

Your gender identity is determined not by how you perceive yourself, but by how others perceive you.

I have no idea. I am a man. That's how I perceive myself and how others perceive me.

Quote:
For example, sexual attraction ("in the bedroom"): If you are sexually attracted to women, it doesn't matter if your prospective partner tells you they're a woman. If you perceive them to be a man, and are therefore not sexually attracted to them, this is the determining factor.

I am sexually attracted to (some) women and to no men - not even George Clooney. It doesn't change anything if a woman I am not sexually attracted to tells me that she is a woman. It doesn't suddenly make her attractive to me. In other words, I can find a woman unattractive and perceive her to be a woman. I don't have to perceive her to be a man in order to find her unattractive, so no, I don't see how this is the determining factor.
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Old 16th September 2021, 11:56 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I am?! I still have no idea what you are talking about.




I have no idea. I am a man. That's how I perceive myself and how others perceive me.




I am sexually attracted to (some) women and to no men - not even George Clooney. It doesn't change anything if a woman I am not sexually attracted to tells me that she is a woman. It doesn't suddenly make her attractive to me. In other words, I can find a woman unattractive and perceive her to be a woman. I don't have to perceive her to be a man in order to find her unattractive, so no, I don't see how this is the determining factor.

Ooooh no no no dann! You must obey the weird rules set out by your interlocutors. You're required to be attracted to a) all ciswomen, b) no transwomen, and c) no ciswomen who don't, erm, "look" like ciswomen.

And may the Lord have mercy on your dark soul if you ever have the misfortune to glance at a woman in a bar and find her very attractive, then subsequently learn that she is a transwoman. I dunno, maybe the "rules" require you to self-flagellate if that catastrophe should befall you, not to mention berating the transwoman for misleading you in such a disgraceful manner.
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Old 16th September 2021, 11:57 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is an easy one. I don't even have to tell you about the bedroom. You're about to tell me. Consider these propositions, and tell me whether you agree or disagree:

Your gender identity is determined not by how you perceive yourself, but by how others perceive you.

For example, sexual attraction ("in the bedroom"): If you are sexually attracted to women, it doesn't matter if your prospective partner tells you they're a woman. If you perceive them to be a man, and are therefore not sexually attracted to them, this is the determining factor.
Do you know why I don't think we'll see significant pressure about bedroom choices? I'll explain exactly why I don't think the slope is that slippery--there are two big factors that are likely to keep it from sliding in that direction.

First, segregated spaces are assigned, by their nature, to a group of people--for example, where there are only two kinds of facilities available. Sexual partners are chosen individually. If every restroom were for individual use only, there would be no argument about who belonged there. While that is often impractical for restrooms, it is inherent in relationships.

Secondly, I think there is significant resistance across the board against cultural pressure interfering with choice of partner, let alone any kind of coercion. It's got little possibility of traction unless suddenly nobody cares about consent anymore, in which case we've got bigger problems.

Granted, this is just reasoning, not practice. I think we have an easy real-world analogue to contemplate. The acceptability of mixed race relationships and marriages is almost complete in the US. I wish I could say entirely, but that's another discussion. So has that led to harassing people over who they choose not to date? I won't say the amount is zero--you can find people grinding an axe on any topic. But for the most part I think it can be said that diminishing the significance of race has not pushed into people's bedrooms.
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:10 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Do you know why I don't think we'll see significant pressure about bedroom choices? I'll explain exactly why I don't think the slope is that slippery--there are two big factors that are likely to keep it from sliding in that direction.

First, segregated spaces are assigned, by their nature, to a group of people--for example, where there are only two kinds of facilities available. Sexual partners are chosen individually. If every restroom were for individual use only, there would be no argument about who belonged there. While that is often impractical for restrooms, it is inherent in relationships.

Secondly, I think there is significant resistance across the board against cultural pressure interfering with choice of partner, let alone any kind of coercion. It's got little possibility of traction unless suddenly nobody cares about consent anymore, in which case we've got bigger problems.

Granted, this is just reasoning, not practice. I think we have an easy real-world analogue to contemplate. The acceptability of mixed race relationships and marriages is almost complete in the US. I wish I could say entirely, but that's another discussion. So has that led to harassing people over who they choose not to date? I won't say the amount is zero--you can find people grinding an axe on any topic. But for the most part I think it can be said that diminishing the significance of race has not pushed into people's bedrooms.

Indeed. This "into the bedroom" nonsense is just more projection and scaremongering based entirely on biassed "domesday" predictions.

Humans in the 21st century fall along an extremely broad spectrum of attractions, permissions and consents. Frankly, all that matters (or should matter) is that 1) all parties to any given hookup (whether that's two or more than two) should have given informed and free consent to it, and 2) it all takes place in privacy (or in the reasonable expectation of privacy).

Look: I've worked and lived in the Far East over several years. A few of the people I've worked with have, for reasons I haven't asked them about (because it's none of my business), had hookups with Thai ladyboys. Personally, I have zero attraction to ladyboys, but I'm sure as heck not judging anyone else who does. So here we have ostensibly hetero cismen, who are capable of being sexually attracted to people who actually look (when clothed) like beautiful statuesque women, but who are in fact in possession of a penis. Some of these people identify as women; some of them identify as transvestite gay men. Again - that's entirely their choice. And the cismen who hook up with them are (almost always) under no illusion that the person with whom they're about to engage in sexual activity possesses a penis and not a vagina.

I just love the way that so many people - especially, it would appear, so many hetero cismen - automatically assume that what they find attractive (and unattractive) is pretty much the default that "normal" people ought to find attractive/unattractive.
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:11 PM   #273
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No one is going to tell you who you ought to sleep with, except some idiots writing in academic journals, and a few pervert pretendbians with their "cotton ceiling" stupidity.



It's a pity that those people aren't universally condemned for spouting idiocy.
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:15 PM   #274
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Some of you have a LOT more faith in this idea that there are separate "public" and "private" standards (and that those standards will forever be separate) then I do.

Again show me a Venn diagram of people who think "Blacks should use a separate water fountain is a racist idea" AND "I won't date a black woman is a racist idea" that isn't a perfect circle. Because it is a circle. If you think one and not the other you're not making sense.
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:16 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
In Canada? I don't recall any of note. Refresh my memory.
Of course you don't.

Like I said:

ST: That would never happen!
EC: It happened here <link>
ST: That's just an anecdote, it doesn't count
EC: It disproves your claim that it never happens, and here are several other instances <multiple links>
ST Canned Response 1: The plural of ancedote isn't data
ST Canned Response 2: A couple of outliers doesn't make it true for the generality
ST Canned Response 3: That's from a biased source so it doesn't count
~~~ Time Passes ~~~

ST: That never happens! I haven't seen any evidence of it!

[Repeat ad nauseum]
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:17 PM   #276
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Well, there's always the question of disclosure and whether it should be necessary in a physical relationship.

Last edited by Olmstead; 16th September 2021 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:18 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
About the only context in which the primacy of gender over sex has not been asserted has been in the bedroom. And even there, I think that some are already asserting it.
That one has been asserted too, within the context of sexual orientation being "redefined" as gender-identity orientation, and the fiction that people in general are attracted to and sexually interested in people's internal subjective sense of how well they conform to a stereotype, and has nothing at all to do with actual objective sex class.
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:20 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
This has come up many times, but it still leaves me saying, "Kids these days. "

(Just in case there's someone who hasn't heard it a billion times, we had the same showers and the same rules, and we all took showers after gym class.)
The times, they are a-changin'.
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:22 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The times, they are a-changin'.
That doesn't make the person on side of "change" always right.
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Old 16th September 2021, 12:34 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That doesn't make the person on side of "change" always right.
Deleted, confused you for someone else.
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