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Tags alec baldwin , gun incidents , shooting incidents

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Old 24th October 2021, 04:35 AM   #241
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
A person dies from a prop gun in a movie set, everyone talks about its safety relentlessly but when kids die from mass shootings in schools it's always 'too soon' to talk about it.
The lesson is still the same, schools should only employ unionized children.
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Old 24th October 2021, 06:25 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Well, technically, a prop is anything an actor uses on stage. But just as a whiskey bottle could be made of real glass or breakaway sugar "glass," a prop gun could be plastic or a toy or a realistic piece designed to only hold blanks or a real firearm that could fire real bullets if it was mistakenly loaded with them.

Replace the prop gun with a proppistol.
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Old 24th October 2021, 06:29 AM   #243
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Just use Airsoft. Who would tell the difference on a screen?

No one dies

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/airsoft-pistol

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/airsoft-assault-rifle

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/airsoft-submachine-gun

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 24th October 2021 at 06:32 AM.
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Old 24th October 2021, 07:23 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The lesson is still the same, schools should only employ unionized children.
And there should be a professional unionized armorer at every school!
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Old 24th October 2021, 08:49 AM   #245
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I see the media are already making the armourer focus of their hate campaign now,poor woman has deleted her social media accounts.
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Old 24th October 2021, 08:50 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Well, technically, a prop is anything an actor uses on stage. But just as a whiskey bottle could be made of real glass or breakaway sugar "glass," a prop gun could be plastic or a toy or a realistic piece designed to only hold blanks or a real firearm that could fire real bullets if it was mistakenly loaded with them. You may not understand that replica guns are not designed to fire real bullets.
http://cowboyprops.com/replica-western-guns.html
http://replicaweaponry.com/replica-g...-replica-guns/

If they were using a "replica" on the set they couldn't have loaded it with a real cartridge.
Real ammunition shoudlnt be on set.
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Old 24th October 2021, 09:14 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Azrael 5 View Post
I see the media are already making the armourer focus of their hate campaign now,poor woman has deleted her social media accounts.

It's not a hate campaign to report accurately that the armorer is responsible for maintaining firearms safety, and that there were serious firearms safety problems on this set.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/alec-b...oting?ref=home
https://www.thedailybeast.com/what-w...t-set?ref=home

More broadly, it's not a hate campaign when "the media" tell you something that you don't want to hear.
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Old 24th October 2021, 09:14 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Azrael 5 View Post
Real ammunition shoudlnt be on set.
At this time there's no confirmation that there was.
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Old 24th October 2021, 09:25 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
At this time there's no confirmation that there was.
I know I was just stating generally
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Old 24th October 2021, 09:26 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It's not a hate campaign to report accurately that the armorer is responsible for maintaining firearms safety, and that there were serious firearms safety problems on this set.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/alec-b...oting?ref=home
https://www.thedailybeast.com/what-w...t-set?ref=home

More broadly, it's not a hate campaign when "the media" tell you something that you don't want to hear.
Maybe I shoudl have said "pile on" taking quotes out of context using particlar pictures from her social media to create a narrative.
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Old 24th October 2021, 09:39 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Azrael 5 View Post
I see the media are already making the armourer focus of their hate campaign now,poor woman has deleted her social media accounts.
"The media" is not a monolithic hive mind.

"Some outlets" sure, but "the media" I consume has been mostly informative and objective.
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Old 24th October 2021, 11:00 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
"The media" is not a monolithic hive mind.

"Some outlets" sure, but "the media" I consume has been mostly informative and objective.
Maybe its just UK outlets.
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Old 24th October 2021, 12:25 PM   #253
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This was expected.

The fatal shooting of Halyna Hutchins is prompting calls to ban real guns from sets
Quote:
The accidental shooting was not the first gun death on a film or TV set, but it has refocused attention on how firearms can be used safely by the entertainment industry ó and also raised the question of whether they should be banned outright.
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Old 24th October 2021, 12:39 PM   #254
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Of course, Lauren Boebert keeps it classy-

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/la...cid=uxbndlbing
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Old 24th October 2021, 12:42 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Way overdue..

There is no shortage of idiots who thought 'real' guns were an important part of movie lore..
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Old 24th October 2021, 01:05 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Azrael 5 View Post
Maybe its just UK outlets.
Choose your 'outlets' with more care.
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Old 24th October 2021, 02:29 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Way overdue..

There is no shortage of idiots who thought 'real' guns were an important part of movie lore..
Movie audiences have long had to deal with fake-looking money, "555-" telephone numbers, actors drinking from empty cups, and punches that miss by a mile. I think we could get used to guns that don't really work.
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Old 24th October 2021, 02:39 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Movie audiences have long had to deal with fake-looking money, "555-" telephone numbers, actors drinking from empty cups, and punches that miss by a mile. I think we could get used to guns that don't really work.
Not to mention sarlaccs that don't actually provide new definition of pain and suffering, as you are slowly digested over a thousand years.
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Old 24th October 2021, 03:08 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Replace the prop gun with a proppistol.
Wow... serious old school.
But, it needs the little flag that says "BANG!".
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Old 24th October 2021, 03:15 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Movie audiences have long had to deal with fake-looking money, "555-" telephone numbers, actors drinking from empty cups, and punches that miss by a mile. I think we could get used to guns that don't really work.
Even a real firearm shooting blanks does not look or sound like a gun that really works. A real gun has recoil and is much louder than anything heard on film. Even the gun videos I post on Youtube don't really seem real at times.

Ranb
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Old 24th October 2021, 03:22 PM   #261
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I've been thinking about this incident for a few days now and I can't really wrap my head round how this would happen. A person is handed a gun and told it is "cold", as in not loaded with ammo. So?

Handing a firearm to a person who is unwilling to examine it for themselves to verify that it is safe to handle on a film set while pointing it at people is just strange to me. It is like the babysitter (armorer) is handing a knife to a baby (actor) and telling them it does not have an edge on it.
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Old 24th October 2021, 03:29 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Even a real firearm shooting blanks does not look or sound like a gun that really works. A real gun has recoil and is much louder than anything heard on film. Even the gun videos I post on Youtube don't really seem real at times.

Ranb
Remember a lot of the old gangster movies where they shoot the gun and push forward on it, like they're throwing something out of the barrel? Comical.
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Old 24th October 2021, 03:30 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I've been thinking about this incident for a few days now and I can't really wrap my head round how this would happen. A person is handed a gun and told it is "cold", as in not loaded with ammo. So?

Handing a firearm to a person who is unwilling to examine it for themselves to verify that it is safe to handle on a film set while pointing it at people is just strange to me. It is like the babysitter (armorer) is handing a knife to a baby (actor) and telling them it does not have an edge on it.
Yeah. But you are approaching this as someone who uses firearms. Alec Baldwin is an actor who thinks he is using a fake gun. They point guns at each other all the time in the movies which violates everything a person might do if they think they are holding a real gun. I donít know what there is to be surprised about.
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Old 24th October 2021, 03:34 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I've been thinking about this incident for a few days now and I can't really wrap my head round how this would happen. A person is handed a gun and told it is "cold", as in not loaded with ammo. So?

Handing a firearm to a person who is unwilling to examine it for themselves to verify that it is safe to handle on a film set while pointing it at people is just strange to me. It is like the babysitter (armorer) is handing a knife to a baby (actor) and telling them it does not have an edge on it.
The armorer is supposed to be the paid expert. The average actor probably doesn't have the experience to check a firearm properly, and his bosses probably don't want him fumbling with it on the set, especially if it's been loaded with blanks. But it shouldn't be hard to train all actors to never point a gun at anyone, whether or not they think it's loaded.
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Old 24th October 2021, 03:37 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah. But you are approaching this as someone who uses firearms. Alec Baldwin is an actor who thinks he is using a fake gun. They point guns at each other all the time in the movies which violates everything a person might do if they think they are holding a real gun. I donít know what there is to be surprised about.
Theoretically they could and usually do cheat with camera angles, so a gun that looks like it's pointed at someone really isn't.
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Old 24th October 2021, 03:39 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I've been thinking about this incident for a few days now and I can't really wrap my head round how this would happen. A person is handed a gun and told it is "cold", as in not loaded with ammo. So?

Handing a firearm to a person who is unwilling to examine it for themselves to verify that it is safe to handle on a film set while pointing it at people is just strange to me. It is like the babysitter (armorer) is handing a knife to a baby (actor) and telling them it does not have an edge on it.

I'm not sure it can be reduced to that type of simplistic level. I guess the overarching point is that there are certain procedural conventions related to the handling and usage of real firearms on TV/movie/theatre sets. Those procedural conventions a) are rigid and unambiguous, and b) are there specifically to prevent the sort of thing that appears to have happened in this horrible incident in NM. The problem, I guess, comes when one or more people goes through the motions of following the verbal elements of the procedures in the convention, but hasn't actually (for whatever reason) carried out the acts underpinning the procedures properly.

In any event...... I can't help feeling that in this particular case, right now there's only so much speculating that's either reasonable or sensible. I think due process should take place, so that the facts can be established (as much as they can be) free from rumours and speculation.
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Old 24th October 2021, 04:42 PM   #267
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Lauren Boebert weighs in:
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Old 24th October 2021, 06:10 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I've been thinking about this incident for a few days now and I can't really wrap my head round how this would happen. A person is handed a gun and told it is "cold", as in not loaded with ammo. So?



Handing a firearm to a person who is unwilling to examine it for themselves to verify that it is safe to handle on a film set while pointing it at people is just strange to me. It is like the babysitter (armorer) is handing a knife to a baby (actor) and telling them it does not have an edge on it.
I guess 99.999% of the time that system works.
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Old 24th October 2021, 06:54 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
When is a person to blame? It is always the gun.
No. There's no such thing as accidental discharge of a firearm. There's only negligent discharge.
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Old 24th October 2021, 06:55 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It seems to have been established that the round fire was live..it had a projectile. How the hell did that heppn is, to me, the big question.
Well I too am seeing the reports of rampant safety violations.

Quote:
No-one has been charged in the fatal incident, but concerning reports about disregarded safety protocols on the set of the low-budget movie have emerged, as well as a reported walk-out by several crew members hours before the fatal shooting...

...The lethal prop gun was handed to Mr Baldwin by Mr Halls, who has more than 20 years of experience in the business, court documents revealed.

His reputation as a manager was defended in the Los Angeles Times by film producer Aaron B Koontz, who worked with Mr Halls on two previous movies.

"Dave is extremely efficient and he's very good at keeping the pace going and moving at the speed you have to move at in order to make your days," Mr Koontz said.

But special effects technician Maggie Goll, who worked with Mr Halls on 2017 Hulu television series Into the Dark, had a different experience.

"He did not maintain a safe working environment," Ms Goll said.

"Sets were almost always allowed to become increasingly claustrophobic, no established fire lanes, exits blocked Ö safety meetings were nonexistent."
Source:

Alec Baldwin not responsible for on-set shooting death of Halyna Hutchins, her father says
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Old 24th October 2021, 07:18 PM   #271
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If true - the armorer and safety boss and stunt coordinator on that production were all horribly negligent.

Members of the film crew working on the set where a cinematographer was shot dead by the actor Alec Baldwin are reported to have been using the gun involved for live target practice.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...tice-fdcjd8tsc
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Old 24th October 2021, 07:49 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
If true - the armorer and safety boss and stunt coordinator on that production were all horribly negligent.

Members of the film crew working on the set where a cinematographer was shot dead by the actor Alec Baldwin are reported to have been using the gun involved for live target practice.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...tice-fdcjd8tsc
Clearly continued use of the phrase, "Prop Gun", while correct by Hollywood terms, is very misleading to those of use living in the real world. What we have here is a fully operational, real live, honest to goodness hand held firing weapon, and nothing less.
Originally Posted by The Times
Sources involved in the production told the celebrity website TMZ that the gun was used for recreational purposes off set, with real ammunition that may have accidentally been left in the weapon when it was handed to Baldwin, 63, during a rehearsal.
Somebody got very, very sloppy along the way.
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Old 24th October 2021, 07:50 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well I too am seeing the reports of rampant safety violations.







Source:



Alec Baldwin not responsible for on-set shooting death of Halyna Hutchins, her father says
Mr. Koontz and Ms. Gall are attributed as having different experiences.

To my mind, they both described the same kind of working conditions, just with different words.

One of my go-to witty comments when someone on a set observes we are on schedule is to reply "then obviously we're doing something terribly wrong." Sure, it's a joke, but it has a ring of truth.
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Old 24th October 2021, 08:27 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Clearly continued use of the phrase, "Prop Gun", while correct by Hollywood terms, is very misleading to those of use living in the real world. What we have here is a fully operational, real live, honest to goodness hand held firing weapon, and nothing less.


Somebody got very, very sloppy along the way.
Three people got very, very, sloppy.
While everybody is directing their attention to the armorer - the stunt coordinator and safety coordinator are also required to ensure all safeguards regarding firearms on set are met or exceeded.
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Old 24th October 2021, 09:26 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah. But you are approaching this as someone who uses firearms. Alec Baldwin is an actor who thinks he is using a fake gun. They point guns at each other all the time in the movies which violates everything a person might do if they think they are holding a real gun. I donít know what there is to be surprised about.
Ever hear the "I didn't know it was loaded" excuse for various firearm related accidents? This is what I'm hearing when an actor thinks they are not responsible for each piece of lead they pretend to, or actually, put down range.
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Old 24th October 2021, 09:31 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The armorer is supposed to be the paid expert. The average actor probably doesn't have the experience to check a firearm properly, and his bosses probably don't want him fumbling with it on the set, especially if it's been loaded with blanks. But it shouldn't be hard to train all actors to never point a gun at anyone, whether or not they think it's loaded.
Perhaps it is time for production companies to invest time and money into making sure everyone who touches a gun on set is actually competent to do so. This way when the gun expert hands a firearm to an actor, they can show the actor the exact condition of the piece and the actor can understand the exact condition of the firearm.
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Old 24th October 2021, 09:32 PM   #277
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Oh yeah, it's TOTALLY not the fault of the people whose entire jobs are ensuring that the props aren't dangerous. They're kinda the "you had one job" people, and the failure of that job isn't on them at all.
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Old 24th October 2021, 09:34 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I guess 99.999% of the time that system works.
I agree. But the person pulling the trigger needs to be the responsible individual.
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Old 24th October 2021, 10:37 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Three people got very, very, sloppy.
While everybody is directing their attention to the armorer - the stunt coordinator and safety coordinator are also required to ensure all safeguards regarding firearms on set are met or exceeded.
The Stunt Coordinator would have nothing to do with it.

Pointing a gun and pulling the trigger is not a "stunt" or anything a Stunt Coordinator needs to consult on. A Stunt Coordinator doesn't concern themselves with firearms safeguards (that's the Armourer's job).

I doubt a set cutting this many corners had a specific Safety Coordinator. The 1AD is the safety coordinator in most cases. Even if there is a Safety Coordinator, the 1AD is (in theory) still the absolute top authority on safety. They are literally the person who is supposed to get in the Director's face and say "no" when they are trying to push for something not safe (but obviously social power dynamics get in the way).

I do agree it is 3 key responsible parties.

Armourer (entirely failed at her job), 1st Assistant Director (for being that really awful mixture of spineless and reckless at the same time), and the Production Manager (for running a total **** show and totally whiffing on addressing the numerous safety concerns).
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Old 24th October 2021, 10:49 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
The Stunt Coordinator would have nothing to do with it.

Pointing a gun and pulling the trigger is not a "stunt" or anything a Stunt Coordinator needs to consult on. A Stunt Coordinator doesn't concern themselves with firearms safeguards (that's the Armourer's job).

I doubt a set cutting this many corners had a specific Safety Coordinator. The 1AD is the safety coordinator in most cases. Even if there is a Safety Coordinator, the 1AD is (in theory) still the absolute top authority on safety. They are literally the person who is supposed to get in the Director's face and say "no" when they are trying to push for something not safe (but obviously social power dynamics get in the way).

I do agree it is 3 key responsible parties.

Armourer (entirely failed at her job), 1st Assistant Director (for being that really awful mixture of spineless and reckless at the same time), and the Production Manager (for running a total **** show and totally whiffing on addressing the numerous safety concerns).

And Alec Baldwin, who was the one actually pulling the trigger. Anyone who is going to handle a gun should be trained in gun safety. I donít think Alec can 100% pass this responsibility off onto other parties.

If you donít know how to check a gun to see whether or not itís dangerous to point at someone else, then you have no business actually pointing it at someone else.

And why does anyone think pointing a gun at someone else gets a pass because it was a movie shoot? I call BS. Alec Baldwin is just as responsible as anyone else, being the one who pulled the trigger. Giving him a pass is dangerous.
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