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Tags alec baldwin , gun incidents , shooting incidents

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Old 25th October 2021, 07:37 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well those people can just get over it.

"Oh my God that's a Beretta 92FS not a Beretta M9 LOL Movie ruined forever" can go in the corner with the "OMG that person's grip on the Katana is .00000000002 centimeters too high I know while you were partying I studied the blade" and the "Akcusually that's a Panzer Type 345, the actual tank they should have used is a Panzer Type 344 which is identical except for the lugnuts go on counter-clockwise" types.
NCIS:LA, Criminal Minds, or any movie relatively similar that uses a "tech analyst" would be impossible for me to watch, if I had that mindset. Most of the stuff they say is complete IT gibberish but I enjoy all of those shows. I just laugh at the parts that are out of right field, and watch the rest.
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Old 25th October 2021, 07:40 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Even if you wanted a "to the eye" replica I am sure a 3D printed replica will cost a lot less than a real gun.
And most of these

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6be6417b57.jpg


look like a gun to me and the most expensive is only £13.99, how much is a handgun?
I don't want to see your version of John Wick.
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Old 25th October 2021, 07:49 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't want to see your version of John Wick.
Why ever not? It would look exactly the same.
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Old 25th October 2021, 07:50 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Airsoft pistols are cheap and accurate reproductions.
And it wouldn't surprise me if they are used for background guns all the time. But hero guns the ones that the camera plays over and say shows them loading or what have you are different and those guns are likely not mechanically accurate enough for that.

There are lots of grades of props, and the gun that an extra gets in a scene is different from the one the a list actor gets that the camera plays over for some time.
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Old 25th October 2021, 07:51 AM   #325
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Again it's been done, Once Upon a Time in Mexico had only static prop guns for most of its shooting and had amazing gun battles.
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Old 25th October 2021, 07:54 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Even if you wanted a "to the eye" replica I am sure a 3D printed replica will cost a lot less than a real gun.
And most of these

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...6be6417b57.jpg


look like a gun to me and the most expensive is only £13.99, how much is a handgun?
Again toys are used when you want a bunch of guns in the background that the camera never focuses on, when it is a gun the actors use you need a different level of prop, and one that is being used to discharge blanks yet a different level of prop.

For the purposes of this accident you need a gun that can discharge blanks
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Old 25th October 2021, 07:54 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why ever not? It would look exactly the same.
This is next-level stuff that someone needs to tell Hollywood, right away. Instead of the current system, they could have been using $20 airsoft guns the whole time. Look at the savings! And it looks "exactly" the same!

Brilliant!
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Old 25th October 2021, 07:57 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again it's been done, Once Upon a Time in Mexico had only static prop guns for most of its shooting and had amazing gun battles.
And lord of war bought 3000 real AK-47's because they were cheaper than prop guns.

"New Zealand director Andrew Niccol bought 3000 Kalashnikov automatic rifles for his latest movie, Lord of War, because it was cheaper than using props."

https://archive.ph/20120906102255/ht...887.0-2887.151
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:02 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And it wouldn't surprise me if they are used for background guns all the time. But hero guns the ones that the camera plays over and say shows them loading or what have you are different and those guns are likely not mechanically accurate enough for that.

There are lots of grades of props, and the gun that an extra gets in a scene is different from the one the a list actor gets that the camera plays over for some time.
I would defy you to tell the difference with the best ones without stripping them.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:03 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The choice of gun can be a driving factor how people perceive a movie - for some, the wrong gun a scene just pulls them right our of the suspension of disbelief. Not hard to find people going on endlessly about some character in a period movie using a gun that was not produced until a decade after the movie was made, or a soldier in a movie using a rifle that was not typically issued to whatever military unit that soldier is supposed to be in. It really blows gaskets in some people.

...snip...
But that's not what is being discussed here - it is about replacing real guns with non-working replicas. For instance to my eye the replica guns here: https://www.real-gun.com/replica-desert-eagle.html seem to be quite indistinguishable from a real one.

Thinking about this, any movie made in the UK can't be using real handguns and the like and that doesn't seem to hamper movies which feature guns.

Have to say these ideas are fine to discuss but I don't think there is a need to change the current practices as they seem to be working as wanted.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:04 AM   #331
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"We need to use potentially dangerous things because the safe things cost more" is not a compelling argument for me.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:05 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
This is next-level stuff that someone needs to tell Hollywood, right away. Instead of the current system, they could have been using $20 airsoft guns the whole time. Look at the savings! And it looks "exactly" the same!

Brilliant!
https://www.real-gun.com/replica-desert-eagle.html

That doesn't look realistic?
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:07 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The choice of gun can be a driving factor how people perceive a movie - for some, the wrong gun a scene just pulls them right our of the suspension of disbelief. Not hard to find people going on endlessly about some character in a period movie using a gun that was not produced until a decade after the movie was made, or a soldier in a movie using a rifle that was not typically issued to whatever military unit that soldier is supposed to be in. It really blows gaskets in some people.

So for fully-nonfunctional/non-possibly-functional replica prop guns, they would need a whole lot of them, made to look accurate. Some big-budget movies do that - Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers did that, making rubber replicas of many of the guns used by the soldiers portrayed, but a smaller budget movie can't quite do that.

Add to that some level of interactivity with the gun - loading it, cocking the hammer, spinning a revolver cylinder, racking the slide on a semi-auto, cracking open the way some shotguns and revolvers do, any of that kind of stuff. The kind of stuff we've all seen in a million movies.

At that point, you are getting to the point where it gets much, much easier to just use a real gun. Possibly a replica of an older gun, but a full function replica that can shoot real bullets. Possibly a gun that's been modified so it can't fire, but which started its life as a real gun.

I mean, even Han Solo carried a real gun. His "blaster" was a Mauser modified with a bunch of junk added on to make it look futuristic. But the core was a real gun, built to shoot bullets.
"Some few gun nerds can be anal about guns" is not a thing that should override increased safety. We have a few gun enthusiasts contributing to this thread and I have not seen any of them raise this point.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:08 AM   #334
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Airsoft replica weapons.
Best ones are full metal or wood where required and field strip able.

Just add the bang in Post

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/airsoft-pistol

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/airsoft-assault-rifle

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/airsoft-submachine-gun

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 25th October 2021 at 08:10 AM.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:09 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
"We need to use potentially dangerous things because the safe things cost more" is not a compelling argument for me.
Again 3 deaths in 40 years. I'd bet my next mortgage payment food poisoning from the catering table has probably killed as many.

It IS safe. They are already doing it the safe way.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:13 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I would defy you to tell the difference with the best ones without stripping them.
Do they fire blanks? Or would the gun in the actual accident in question not have been airsoft no matter what and it is just a pointless digression?
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:13 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again 3 deaths in 40 years. I'd bet my next mortgage payment food poisoning from the catering table has probably killed as many.

It IS safe. They are already doing it the safe way.
Zero deaths would be preferred, and can easily be accomplished.

Do you consider 3 deaths to be merely the cost of doing business?
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:14 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But that's not what is being discussed here - it is about replacing real guns with non-working replicas. For instance to my eye the replica guns here: https://www.real-gun.com/replica-desert-eagle.html seem to be quite indistinguishable from a real one.

Thinking about this, any movie made in the UK can't be using real handguns and the like and that doesn't seem to hamper movies which feature guns.

Have to say these ideas are fine to discuss but I don't think there is a need to change the current practices as they seem to be working as wanted.
Again those are not ones that fire blanks, so scenes of guns being fired would not use them anyway. So really it is a pointless digression as this was a scene that involved a gun being fired, not a gun that was not supposed to be fired going off unintentionally.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:16 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And lord of war bought 3000 real AK-47's because they were cheaper than prop guns.

"New Zealand director Andrew Niccol bought 3000 Kalashnikov automatic rifles for his latest movie, Lord of War, because it was cheaper than using props."

https://archive.ph/20120906102255/ht...887.0-2887.151

Also from your link:
Quote:
"We also got some tanks, and the guy said, 'I need them back by December because I'm selling them to Libya'."
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:17 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
"Some few gun nerds can be anal about guns" is not a thing that should override increased safety. We have a few gun enthusiasts contributing to this thread and I have not seen any of them raise this point.
And really just have the actor shout bang instead of firing a blank.

Non firing replicas are used but unless you get rid of firing blanks in movies and say add CGI smoke and muzzle flash only you still need blank firing guns on occasion, like for the scene being shot then.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:17 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It looks realistic to a point, and from a distance. But it has no functionality; meaning no active slide functionality (as in, during "firing"), no recoil, no ability to utilize a blank, etc.. As someone has mentioned, props like this are fine for background scenes and such. But to get a more authentic front-and-center onscreen experience, you will need something engineered differently. Or CGI.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:17 AM   #342
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Just like needing a pile of guns to sit there as background props is functionally very different from needing a weapon you will have an actor handle.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:17 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again 3 deaths in 40 years. I'd bet my next mortgage payment food poisoning from the catering table has probably killed as many.

It IS safe. They are already doing it the safe way.
It's hard to argue with the track record. These kinds of scenes can be done safely, the real question is why this one diverged from these best practices that clearly work so well.

The reporting indicates two prior misfires of the same stage gun, so obviously they weren't running a tight ship here.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:19 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Zero deaths would be preferred, and can easily be accomplished.

Do you consider 3 deaths to be merely the cost of doing business?
3 deaths from entirely different types of accident. That is certainly tragic but it also isn't something to get bent out of shape about when say you have mats in cars that kill more people than that every year.

Regulations are written in blood, and why should movie making be different from any other kind of industry?
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:20 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And really just have the actor shout bang instead of firing a blank.

Non firing replicas are used but unless you get rid of firing blanks in movies and say add CGI smoke and muzzle flash only you still need blank firing guns on occasion, like for the scene being shot then.
No.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:20 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Zero deaths would be preferred, and can easily be accomplished.

Do you consider 3 deaths to be merely the cost of doing business?
We allow people to take part in a lot more seriously risky activities, from climbing to fell walking to rugby to horse-riding and so on. We can never make anything 100% safe 100% of the time.

Given the current procedures the risks seem very minimal, as JoeM said probably more people killed by food poisoning by the caterers over 40 years!
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:21 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Zero deaths would be preferred, and can easily be accomplished.

Do you consider 3 deaths to be merely the cost of doing business?
Of course we don't want deaths. But, realistically, I am pretty sure that the number of gun deaths and injuries on set is a lot less than the totality of those caused by other stunt operations.

To a very, very large extent I think we can say that the current safety protocols have been effective. This doesn't mean we can't improve things, but it doesn't mean we have to start using water pistols, either.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:22 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
No.
Why not? it is much safer and gets rid of the firing of blanks which was the common element in those 3 deaths.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:22 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's hard to argue with the track record. These kinds of scenes can be done safely, the real question is why this one diverged from these best practices that clearly work so well.

The reporting indicates two prior misfires of the same stage gun, so obviously they weren't running a tight ship here.
Because of the oldest, most proven, and most ubiquitous rule of the universe.

**** Happens.

"But one incident is one too many" is an unrealistic truism.

This one incident should (and surely will) be investigated and appropriate consequences should applied once the facts are clear, no arguments there.

But it's not some watershed moment for onset gun safety. It's not the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire or Chernobyl for action films.

Sometimes an incident is just an incident, not a canary in a coal mine.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:22 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We allow people to take part in a lot more seriously risky activities, from climbing to fell walking to rugby to horse-riding and so on. We can never make anything 100% safe 100% of the time.

Given the current procedures the risks seem very minimal, as JoeM said probably more people killed by food poisoning by the caterers over 40 years!
Ok so no more safety needed. We have determined that a shooting death every 13 years is the cost of making movies. Carry on.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:23 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's hard to argue with the track record. These kinds of scenes can be done safely, the real question is why this one diverged from these best practices that clearly work so well.

The reporting indicates two prior misfires of the same stage gun, so obviously they weren't running a tight ship here.
This.

It would seem from the minimal information so far that this happened because the safety procedures weren't being followed, not that the safety procedures failed.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:25 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why not? it is much safer and gets rid of the firing of blanks which was the common element in those 3 deaths.
Dome times ludicrous comments can be amusing. Here, not so much.

I will consider the evidence you will be providing that the gun fired by Baldwin contained blanks
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:26 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Ok so no more safety needed. We have determined that a shooting death every 13 years is the cost of making movies. Carry on.
Nope. At least one of those we know was because safety procedures weren't followed and this one seems to be another one of those.

Had a quick look at deaths of stunt actors - https://www.thewrap.com/10-stuntmen-who-died-on-set/ that's 12 in the same period and I don't know how comprehensive that list is.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:26 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Ok so no more safety needed. We have determined that a shooting death every 13 years is the cost of making movies. Carry on.
You make that sound all sinister and evil but that's literally how risk/reward happens in literally everything and we do with a lot more than 3 deaths balanced against things a lot less important than movies all the time.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:27 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Ok so no more safety needed. We have determined that a shooting death every 13 years is the cost of making movies. Carry on.
A lot more years than that since the crow was filmed try 27 years since Brandon Lee was shot. Now how many deaths do to horses on set have there been in that time? Stunts kill a lot more and are likely a much more effective area to focus more resources on than firearms accidents on set.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:29 AM   #356
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Also we aren't just "LOL it happens"ing.

There were consequences and changes to the industry after the death of Brandon Lee. There will almost certainly be consequences and changes to the industry after the death of Halyna Hutchins.

(Again I sort of acknowledge but don't really count the death of Jon-Erik Hexum as that was functionally a very different scenario. There are some troubling aspects of it, as in why the gun was just left out between filming, but it's a very different beast from the Lee and Hutchins incidents)
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:29 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Dome times ludicrous comments can be amusing. Here, not so much.

I will consider the evidence you will be providing that the gun fired by Baldwin contained blanks
No it had a live round when it was supposed to have a blank. We don't know how the live round even got onto set. But if you are going with blank firing as an acceptable practice then you need to look at the specifics of this specific accident as to how it happened and why, which we don't know.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:32 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Also we aren't just "LOL it happens"ing.

There were consequences and changes to the industry after the death of Brandon Lee. There will almost certainly be consequences and changes to the industry after the death of Halyna Hutchins.

(Again I sort of acknowledge but don't really count the death of Jon-Erik Hexum as that was functionally a very different scenario. There are some troubling aspects of it, as in why the gun was just left out between filming, but it's a very different beast from the Lee and Hutchins incidents)
I do kind of wonder about injuries on sets during that time from firearms that did not result in death, but the only one that I am aware of is Bruce Willis losing his hearing in one ear firing the gun under the table in Die Hard.
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Old 25th October 2021, 08:32 AM   #359
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Compilation of full blowback and recoil Airsoft pistols with magazines a revolver and Winchester that load with and eject individual cartridges and an assault rifle with operating bolt and recoil.

If you 'over gas' them and operate without BB s you even get 'smoke' in the right places
Just add sound

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I AGREE

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Old 25th October 2021, 08:36 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I do kind of wonder about injuries on sets during that time from firearms that did not result in death, but the only one that I am aware of is Bruce Willis losing his hearing in one ear firing the gun under the table in Die Hard.
There's a lot of cases of hearing loss and of minor burns from handling firearms.

Some notable ones:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...sion_accidents

But on the same list are things like "Mathew Perry dislocated his shoulder doing a comical pratfall over a chair filming an episode of Friends" and we are don't have a discussion about making chairs safer.
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