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Old 14th November 2021, 07:54 AM   #1
Bikewer
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Michael Flynn wants theocracy.

Michael Flynn, ex security advisor to Trump said that “America needs one religion” while speaking to a group recently:

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/5...e-one-religion

“If we’re to be one nation under god, we need one religion.” Evidently he didn’t specify which one….
We see indications that this mind-set towards (presumably) Christian theocracy is common among the right-leaning and especially the Trump supporters. And what a vision of Christianity it is…. Racist, Nationalist, anti social safety nets and science….
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Old 14th November 2021, 09:35 AM   #2
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Ein Reich, ein Volk, und EIN GOTT!

Auch Blut und Boden u.s.w.

Nu.
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Old 14th November 2021, 10:00 AM   #3
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Even if the god-botherers are completely right and God is all they presume, we are one nation under God in the same sense that we're one nation under the stratosphere, one nation under the sun, one nation on top of the water table.

It's of course completely unsurprising that Flynn would so dreadfully misunderstand the importance of secular government as so many idiots do. He's an idiot's idiot.
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Old 14th November 2021, 10:03 AM   #4
dann
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Michael Flynn, ex security advisor to Trump said that “America needs one religion” while speaking to a group recently:

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/5...e-one-religion

“If we’re to be one nation under god God, we need one religion.” Evidently he didn’t specify which one….
We see indications that this mind-set towards (presumably) Christian theocracy is common among the right-leaning and especially the Trump supporters. And what a vision of Christianity it is…. Racist, Nationalist, anti social safety nets and science….

FTFY. Do you want him to go to hell?! (Don't answer that!)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th November 2021, 12:10 PM   #5
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Getting old is not much fun in many ways, but its useful in a few. When I was little I had a little 78 RPM phonograph and some of those little Golden records and the like to play on it. One was The Pledge of Allegiance. I am old enough to remember playing this over and over, and knowing it by heart, when I was shocked to discover in second grade that a jarring insertion had been made, which aside from striking me even at 6 as being unnecessarily silly, ruined the way the pledge, which I was rather proud to be able to recite, scanned. And even at that tender age, offended by the corruption, I vowed I would be silent for those two words, and have been ever since.

We became officially "one nation under God" when the idiot Eisenhower added it to the pledge in 1954. Before that we were a nice, secular one, with the correct emphasis (at least for us heirs of the Union side) on indivisible.
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Old 14th November 2021, 12:20 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
We became officially "one nation under God" when the idiot Eisenhower added it to the pledge in 1954. Before that we were a nice, secular one, with the correct emphasis (at least for us heirs of the Union side) on indivisible.

I don't know if it's accurate, but I've seen it claimed that some people believed at the time that the evil, Godless, Communist infiltrators plotting to undermine the country would be physically incapable of saying "under God", and the Pledge could expose them. Kind of like how people during the Witch Trials believed a witch couldn't recite the Lord's Prayer.
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Old 14th November 2021, 12:37 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
I don't know if it's accurate, but I've seen it claimed that some people believed at the time that the evil, Godless, Communist infiltrators plotting to undermine the country would be physically incapable of saying "under God", and the Pledge could expose them. Kind of like how people during the Witch Trials believed a witch couldn't recite the Lord's Prayer.
Rather like the more recent idea that devout Muslim terrorists would faint at the sight of a female breast.
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Old 14th November 2021, 12:51 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Michael Flynn, ex security advisor to Trump said that “America needs one religion” while speaking to a group recently:

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/5...e-one-religion

“If we’re to be one nation under god, we need one religion.” Evidently he didn’t specify which one….
We see indications that this mind-set towards (presumably) Christian theocracy is common among the right-leaning and especially the Trump supporters. And what a vision of Christianity it is…. Racist, Nationalist, anti social safety nets and science….
I suspect that neither you nor Flynn knows what a theocracy actually is.
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Old 14th November 2021, 01:13 PM   #9
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And I suspect that you, Mr. Prestigious, will never tell us what a theocracy is, certainly not in your own words.

And who doubts that the diseased chrrrristian funndies of modern America, corn-fed fascists every one of them, would impose a mad religion-based tyranny wherever they could reach with their nailed boots? A regime in which the chrrrristian Bible, interpreted as ignorantly as they could manage, would be the whole of the law? Yes, and with every attending barbarism.

Okay, maybe you can doubt it. I wonder how you'd express yourself.

No I don't. I have a pretty good idea.
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Old 14th November 2021, 02:26 PM   #10
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Theocracy is pretty much the Republican platform these days. The only question is whether they'd rather worship Jesus or Trump.
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Old 14th November 2021, 03:03 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Theocracy is pretty much the Republican platform these days. The only question is whether they'd rather worship Jesus or Trump.
It's always Mammon, but under an alias.
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Old 14th November 2021, 03:14 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I suspect that neither you nor Flynn knows what a theocracy actually is.
I imagine the idea of theocracy is somewhat malleable, but the ever-handy Oxford English Dictionary defines it thus:

" A form of government in which God (or a deity) is recognized as the king or immediate ruler, and his laws are taken as the statute-book of the kingdom, these laws being usually administered by a priestly order as his ministers and agents; hence (loosely) a system of government by a sacerdotal order, claiming a divine commission; also a state so governed.....etc."

I believe a government that decrees that this "nation under god" must have "one religion," satisfies at least the loose definition even if the adminstrators of it pretend not to be the priestly administrators of direct divine rule.

But since we're speaking of Americans and the government of the US, we probably ought to use the definition in an American dictionary, in this case the MW New Collegiate Dictionary, which is based on the New International #3:

"Government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials regarded as divinely guided."

Bingo. Flynn believes his god is real, that the nation is or should be "under" that god, and that his religion alone should be accepted as representing that submission. A ******* theocrat and an enemy of democracy however you'd like to slice the baloney.
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Old 14th November 2021, 03:28 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Theocracy is pretty much the Republican platform these days. The only question is whether they'd rather worship Jesus or Trump.
There is no god but Jesus and Donald Trump is his profit prophet.
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Old 14th November 2021, 03:42 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I imagine the idea of theocracy is somewhat malleable, but the ever-handy Oxford English Dictionary defines it thus:

" A form of government in which God (or a deity) is recognized as the king or immediate ruler, and his laws are taken as the statute-book of the kingdom, these laws being usually administered by a priestly order as his ministers and agents; hence (loosely) a system of government by a sacerdotal order, claiming a divine commission; also a state so governed.....etc."

I believe a government that decrees that this "nation under god" must have "one religion," satisfies at least the loose definition even if the adminstrators of it pretend not to be the priestly administrators of direct divine rule.

But since we're speaking of Americans and the government of the US, we probably ought to use the definition in an American dictionary, in this case the MW New Collegiate Dictionary, which is based on the New International #3:

"Government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials regarded as divinely guided."

Bingo. Flynn believes his god is real, that the nation is or should be "under" that god, and that his religion alone should be accepted as representing that submission. A ******* theocrat and an enemy of democracy however you'd like to slice the baloney.
Except he doesn't conflate the nation with the government.
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Old 14th November 2021, 04:15 PM   #15
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I would like that god that the USA would be under to be Bacchus. All the other ones are too ******* serious.
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Old 14th November 2021, 04:44 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I would like that god that the USA would be under to be Bacchus. All the other ones are too ******* serious.
As opposed to the country being seriously ******, which is what we have now.
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Old 14th November 2021, 04:47 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Except he doesn't conflate the nation with the government.
I suppose on the basis of the statement quoted that's technically true, but I think it would be out of character and pretty nonsensical if he called for such a radical religious regimen in society while advocating for a secular government, which I don't think he's on record as having done before, though he has gone on record as favoring a coup such as that in Myanmar.

So conceding to the technicality I would be extremely surprised if Flynn honored it or even acknowledged its existence.
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Old 14th November 2021, 05:27 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As opposed to the country being seriously ******, which is what we have now.
If we are going to be seriously ****** we should be under Bacchus. Although I would vote for Sheela Na Gigs. I expect a great deal of debate between those two primary candidates. Maybe we could get Baron Samedi as a third party candidate.

But with the way elections are going these days we will probably end up with something unexpected like Lyssa.
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Old 15th November 2021, 12:15 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Even if the god-botherers are completely right and God is all they presume, we are one nation under God in the same sense that we're one nation under the stratosphere, one nation under the sun, one nation on top of the water table.
Under Canada, above Mexico.
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Old 15th November 2021, 12:47 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I suspect that neither you nor Flynn knows what a theocracy actually is.
I'm sure you'll be along shortly to set the record straight...
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Old 15th November 2021, 01:33 AM   #21
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Crucially, Flynn wants Religion to supercede the Law, subject to his interpretation.
Like in a textbook Theocracy, it's about creating an alternative set for rules for the Insiders. It's what Republicans are already doing with regards to elections and presidential oversight.
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Old 15th November 2021, 01:49 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Except he doesn't conflate the nation with the government.
Hair-splitting. He declares that there "needs to be one religion" for the "nation"; a restriction that can only be enforced upon the nation by its government.
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Old 15th November 2021, 04:27 AM   #23
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I'm with Clinton on this one: y'all need to be One Nation Under A Groove!

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Old 15th November 2021, 05:19 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
There is no god but Jesus and Donald Trump is his profit prophet.
Trump is in fact the Anti-profit!
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Old 15th November 2021, 05:36 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Michael Flynn, ex security advisor to Trump said that “America needs one religion” while speaking to a group recently:

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/5...e-one-religion

“If we’re to be one nation under god, we need one religion.” Evidently he didn’t specify which one….
We see indications that this mind-set towards (presumably) Christian theocracy is common among the right-leaning and especially the Trump supporters. And what a vision of Christianity it is…. Racist, Nationalist, anti social safety nets and science….
Is he proposing that Congress make laws respecting an establishment of religion, and prohibiting the free exercise thereof?
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Old 15th November 2021, 05:50 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Is he proposing that Congress make laws respecting an establishment of religion, and prohibiting the free exercise thereof?
No.
He just expects Congress to ignore his crimes, because he is so pious.
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Old 15th November 2021, 07:57 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Except he doesn't conflate the nation with the government.
Even worse. Iran, which by most definitions can be classified as a theocracy, has an explicitely Islamic government. But it still has some tolerance for other religions such as Zoroastrianism and Christianity. Flynn isn't just arguing that the government should be of a single religion, but that the nation should allow only one religion to exist. Not sure how he thinks such a thing can be achieved, but if it involves forced conversions, inquisitions into whether Conversos are secretly still performing banned rituals is to be expected.
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Old 15th November 2021, 08:30 AM   #28
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The solution, my dear sister, is

Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Even worse. Iran, which by most definitions can be classified as a theocracy, has an explicitely Islamic government. But it still has some tolerance for other religions such as Zoroastrianism and Christianity. Flynn isn't just arguing that the government should be of a single religion, but that the nation should allow only one religion to exist. Not sure how he thinks such a thing can be achieved, but if it involves forced conversions, inquisitions into whether Conversos are secretly still performing banned rituals is to be expected.
to put them to the Question.

And remember, they always talk after the Boot.
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Old 15th November 2021, 08:48 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
Even worse. Iran, which by most definitions can be classified as a theocracy, has an explicitely Islamic government. But it still has some tolerance for other religions such as Zoroastrianism and Christianity. Flynn isn't just arguing that the government should be of a single religion, but that the nation should allow only one religion to exist. Not sure how he thinks such a thing can be achieved, but if it involves forced conversions, inquisitions into whether Conversos are secretly still performing banned rituals is to be expected.
Like many of his ilk, I'm sure he's long on rhetoric but very short on detail - likely because he hasn't got as far as thinking about the "how", he just wants to live inside his Christian bubble (though even then he may not have thought through the detail of what a Christian theocratic regime might end up entailing, especially if the official version of Christianity doesn't align with General Flynn's).
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Old 15th November 2021, 08:51 AM   #30
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Was this even a smart thing to say to his base? I can't imagine anyone would be a fan of a singular religion ruling the nation. It would be....stupid.
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Old 15th November 2021, 08:55 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Was this even a smart thing to say to his base? I can't imagine anyone would be a fan of a singular religion ruling the nation. It would be....stupid.
Dude a majority of Americans think a singular religion already runs the nation.
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Old 15th November 2021, 08:56 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Was this even a smart thing to say to his base? I can't imagine anyone would be a fan of a singular religion ruling the nation. It would be....stupid.
Not if you're a member of that singular religion and don't think too hard about the implications - from the uncurious person's perspective you'd be living in a society whose rules and laws align exactly with your views and surrounded by people exactly like yourself.

That sounds like an ideal situation for many people. *

It's only when you actually start thinking about the details that the absolute stupidity of it all becomes glaringly apparent.

edited to add......

* - especially if you view yourself as a member of a shrinking minority who is being attacked on all sides by Muslims, Jews, Atheists and people who identify as Christians who aren't really proper Christians. The idea of an unchanging country full of people just like you is very alluring.

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Old 15th November 2021, 09:08 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
There is no god but Jesus and Donald Trump is his profit prophet.
I think you have that backwards
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:10 AM   #34
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Guys you have to understand "It only works if you don't put any real thought into it and only react to it on a base emotional and thematic level" is a feature, not a bug, for these people.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:11 AM   #35
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Not if you're a member of that singular religion [...]
... or, more likely, of one of the many similar yet irreconcilably different religions, each of which likes to think it's that singular religion.

Dave
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:22 AM   #36
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Dude a majority of Americans think a singular religion already runs the nation.
As long as it isn't Sharia law.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:57 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
... or, more likely, of one of the many similar yet irreconcilably different religions, each of which likes to think it's that singular religion.

If you tell someone who supports you "We're only going to allow one religion", what they'll hear is "We're only going to allow your religion". That won't work out well.

Reposting a half-remembered joke that I posted in another thread.

The end of the world happens, and only eight religious leaders remain: two Catholics, two Baptists, two Jews, and two Muslims. They decide to create new religious organizations for the survivors. A year later, the Catholics have created the New Sacred Heart Catholic Church, the Jews have created the New Temple Beth Israel, the Muslims have created the New Al-Sadiq Mosque, and the Baptists have created the New Northern Baptist Church and the New Southern Baptist Church.
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Old 15th November 2021, 09:59 AM   #38
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Baptists are the...



... of the religious world.
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Old 15th November 2021, 11:26 AM   #39
autumn1971
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Is he proposing that Congress make laws respecting an establishment of religion, and prohibiting the free exercise thereof?
Yes, he is.

Reading is fundamentalist!

ETA: See Texas, where a minority religious sect has already decided that the entire population of the state must bow to the religious interpretations of a scant few.

Also all of Utah since it was founded.

Religion added to politics destroys the integrity, (such as there ever was any,) of both
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Last edited by autumn1971; 15th November 2021 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 15th November 2021, 12:46 PM   #40
Darat
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
As long as it isn't Sharia law.
Well apart from the flogging, the capital punishment, the man as the head of the household….
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