IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 17th November 2021, 06:57 PM   #1
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,592
£100million stealth jet up for grabs!

An RAF pilot had to eject himself from a new £100m 'stealth' jet, whilst the jet now lies at the bottom of the Mediterranean. So now, apparently there is a race to retrieve it before a hostile foreign power gets there first.

Quote:
Royal Navy submarines are racing against the Russians to recover a crashed £100million jet with top secret technology from the bottom of the Mediterranean.

An RAF pilot was forced to eject from his F-35B Lightning as it ditched into the sea soon after taking off on 'routine exercise' from the Navy's flagship aircraft carrier, HMS Queen Elizabeth. The aircraft was one of eight UK fast-jets onboard, along with 10 US aircraft.

By plunging into international waters, the crash triggered a scramble to find the next-generation jet from the sea bed before it could be reached by Russia. It s thought to be the first time an F35-B has crashed in such an area.

The technology aboard the US-designed aircraft, including top secret radar and sensors, is hugely sensitive as it allows the F-35 to fly 'unseen' in hostile territory at supersonic speeds. However, it is likely that China already knows all there is to know about the jet due to spying.
DM
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2021, 07:26 PM   #2
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 74,374
I like the editorial spin in that last sentence.
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2021, 08:37 PM   #3
jnelso99
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 999
China already obtained a stealth fighter. In Google Earth you can find an F-117 in the middle of a Chinese city.
jnelso99 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2021, 09:18 PM   #4
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 18,288
Originally Posted by jnelso99 View Post
China already obtained a stealth fighter. In Google Earth you can find an F-117 in the middle of a Chinese city.
That was the first I heard of that. So I did some googling...

I did find a few references to it (nothing so far in a "mainstream" site), but from what I did see, it appears that it isn't actually an F-117, but some sort of mockup (that isn't even complete).

Now there are also reports that China was searching for pieces of the F117 that was shot down in Serbia, and may have obtained pieces of it. But then, keep in mind that the F117 is decades old, and much of the technology (while decent for its day and still superior to many 4th generation planes) is outdated compared to what's in the F35 and F22.

See:
(cyberarms.wordpress)

CBS News
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th November 2021, 11:09 PM   #5
jnelso99
Muse
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 999
It's still neat tho. Now that I'm at my PC with Google Earth and all my saved places, it's at 34°39'44.61"N 112°25'45.60"E in Luoyang.
jnelso99 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2021, 12:42 AM   #6
Aber
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,796
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
An RAF pilot had to eject himself from a new £100m 'stealth' jet, whilst the jet now lies at the bottom of the Mediterranean. So now, apparently there is a race to retrieve it before a hostile foreign power gets there first.
Are you sure that they haven't started filming the next Bond film?
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2021, 04:13 AM   #7
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,434
Ah good. A report in the Daily Mail can always be relied on to be accurate and well-sourced.

Read a lot of the Daily Mail do you, Vixen?
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2021, 07:42 AM   #8
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 18,288
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Ah good. A report in the Daily Mail can always be relied on to be accurate and well-sourced.

Read a lot of the Daily Mail do you, Vixen?
True, the Daily Mail is often inaccurate and should not be a primary source.

But, the crash of the British F35 has been covered by more reputable sources, and we know that both China and Russia have made efforts in the past to recover advanced American military hardware, so their report doesn't seem to be that far fetched.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2021, 07:55 AM   #9
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 54,918
Originally Posted by jnelso99 View Post
China already obtained a stealth fighter. In Google Earth you can find an F-117 in the middle of a Chinese city.
The F-117 is literally decades behind the F-35. In shape, in materials, in electronics.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2021, 07:58 AM   #10
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 54,918
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
True, the Daily Mail is often inaccurate and should not be a primary source.

But, the crash of the British F35 has been covered by more reputable sources, and we know that both China and Russia have made efforts in the past to recover advanced American military hardware, so their report doesn't seem to be that far fetched.
What seems far fetched to me is that Russia or China could have recovery assets in the Med in time to get a look in. This isn't like snatching a downed plane out of the Balkans, or forcing one to land inside your borders. Do the Russians even have any ships in the Med right now?
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2021, 08:32 AM   #11
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 12,326
A more reputable source that also describes some similar earlier incidents.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/17/europ...cli/index.html
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2021, 09:07 AM   #12
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 49,998
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What seems far fetched to me is that Russia or China could have recovery assets in the Med in time to get a look in. This isn't like snatching a downed plane out of the Balkans, or forcing one to land inside your borders. Do the Russians even have any ships in the Med right now?
That's the question: what are their capabilities, how fast can they deploy them? It's an absolute certainty that they would want to get hold of it if they can.

Hell, we have spent quite a lot to recover Russian military tech from the bottom of the ocean. Of course, that took years to put that recovery operation together. On the other hand, that was also at a depth of 16k feet, trying to pull up something much larger. This is likely much shallower water, and an F35 isn't nearly as large or heavy as a ballistic missile submarine. So we're working with a much shorter clock.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2021, 09:25 AM   #13
Ranb
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 10,406
In the book Skunk Works, Ben Rich recalls how the CIA gave him a piece of the D-2 Drone that was found in Siberia by the Russians. It was a motor mount coated with radar absorbing material. He was of the opinion that the Russians thought it was current stealth tech when it was actually from the early 60's.

Ranb
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2021, 09:33 AM   #14
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 54,918
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's the question: what are their capabilities, how fast can they deploy them? It's an absolute certainty that they would want to get hold of it if they can.

Hell, we have spent quite a lot to recover Russian military tech from the bottom of the ocean. Of course, that took years to put that recovery operation together. On the other hand, that was also at a depth of 16k feet, trying to pull up something much larger. This is likely much shallower water, and an F35 isn't nearly as large or heavy as a ballistic missile submarine. So we're working with a much shorter clock.
Took years, was in the middle of the Pacific, had a plausible cover story, and was not obviously on top of the known location of the thing in question.

I think it would be blatantly obvious if the Russians had a recovery vessel in the Med, blatantly obvious if it were in the vicinity of the plane, and blatantly obvious what it was up to.

Unless they just have a recovery sub parked on the sea floor at all times in silent running, just in case a situation like this crops up.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2021, 10:00 AM   #15
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 18,288
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Quote:
True, the Daily Mail is often inaccurate and should not be a primary source.

But, the crash of the British F35 has been covered by more reputable sources, and we know that both China and Russia have made efforts in the past to recover advanced American military hardware, so their report doesn't seem to be that far fetched.
What seems far fetched to me is that Russia or China could have recovery assets in the Med in time to get a look in. This isn't like snatching a downed plane out of the Balkans, or forcing one to land inside your borders. Do the Russians even have any ships in the Med right now?
Technically it wouldn't have to be Russian or Chinese ships... they could (in theory) hire freelance salvage companies who work in the area.

I guess to me the big question is... How big of a search radius do they have? If the British know the exact location of the plane, or can identify where it probably is within maybe a kilometer, any 'race' would be short lived. What would make it more challenging is if they have to search many square kilometers of ocean floor.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2021, 05:17 PM   #16
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 17,553
Doesn't the US have a dog in this fight?
Don't they have assets in the area?
Wouldn't they be all over this along with the UK carrier group, to stake out the area until recovery can be made?
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "

Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 18th November 2021 at 05:43 PM.
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2021, 05:22 PM   #17
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 12,326
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Technically it wouldn't have to be Russian or Chinese ships... they could (in theory) hire freelance salvage companies who work in the area.
Only if you're willing to damage the word "theory" more than creationists have.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2021, 05:27 PM   #18
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 54,918
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Doesn't the US have a dog in this fight?
Don't they have assets in the area?
Wouldn't they be all over this along with the UK carrier group, to stake out area until recovery can be made?
I assume so, but good luck finding a professional journalist who will bother to report some basic facts in a clear concise manner (or a bumbling amateur editor who will spellcheck their draft copy and add a photo of an F-117 before clearing it for publication).
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2021, 05:50 PM   #19
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 17,553
Just read the actual story..

Quote:
The aircraft was located on Wednesday afternoon and the site on the sea bed will be manned by an Anglo-US dive security team until the jet is lifted to the surface.
The idea that anyone besides the UK/US would get anywhere near this jet was some headline grabber's pipe dream..
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th November 2021, 08:52 PM   #20
Jim_MDP
Philosopher
 
Jim_MDP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: N.Cal/S.Or
Posts: 8,577
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Just read the actual story..



The idea that anyone besides the UK/US would get anywhere near this jet was some headline grabber's pipe dream..
With the "soon after takeoff" ditch (how soon?), I'd half expect the carrier itself to have been sitting over the site all this time.
__________________
----------------------
Anything goes in the Goblin hut... anything.

"Suggesting spurious explanations isn't relevant to my work." -- WTC Dust.
"Both cannot be simultaneously true, and so one may conclude neither is true, and if neither is true, then Apollo is fraudulent." -- Patrick1000.
Jim_MDP is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 04:03 AM   #21
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,592
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Ah good. A report in the Daily Mail can always be relied on to be accurate and well-sourced.

Read a lot of the Daily Mail do you, Vixen?
Actually, I have a quality broadsheet delivered daily and am subscribed to the DAILY TELEGRAPH (special offer). This story is totally conducive to a comic strip, hence DM is the perfect purveyor of it.

Quote:
The unnamed pilot who ejected from the stricken F-35 jet was then left dangling from the HMS Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier which he had taken off from.

Rockets in his plane's seat blasted him more than 100feet upwards before his parachute opened.

But a source told The Sun that when the pilot floated back down towards the warship, he 'came within inches' of hitting the flight deck.

Instead, a cross-wind is said to have blown him sideways, where his parachute lines then became snagged on the edge of the 900feet long runway.

The quick-thinking pilot was then left dangling from the edge of the warship, around 60feet above the water.

He pulled an escape pin which released him from his harness and he then plunged into the water.

'He made the right decision,' a source said.
DM


Well done, that man, except I fear he will have to suffer ribbing and leg pulling for the rest of his career.


Graphics: credit ibid
Attached Images
File Type: jpg f-35 b.jpg (65.1 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg f-35.jpg (49.7 KB, 13 views)
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 04:09 AM   #22
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,592
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Took years, was in the middle of the Pacific, had a plausible cover story, and was not obviously on top of the known location of the thing in question.

I think it would be blatantly obvious if the Russians had a recovery vessel in the Med, blatantly obvious if it were in the vicinity of the plane, and blatantly obvious what it was up to.

Unless they just have a recovery sub parked on the sea floor at all times in silent running, just in case a situation like this crops up.
It is in international waters so there is little anyone can do de jure to stop them if they tried. If caught, they can always claim to have 'got lost', as did the captain of a Russian submarine stranded on rocks in Sweden. Strangely, the Swedish defence forces - having been summonsed by a bemused fishing hobbyist noticing the strange catch sitting on his bank - were not amused and it is reported that they heard the Russians being instructed to summarily destroy the vessel should the Swedes insist on entering it. This shows their ruthless attitude.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 04:23 AM   #23
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 20,876
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Actually, I have a quality broadsheet delivered daily and am subscribed to the DAILY TELEGRAPH (special offer). This story is totally conducive to a comic strip, hence DM is the perfect purveyor of it.

DM


Well done, that man, except I fear he will have to suffer ribbing and leg pulling for the rest of his career.


Graphics: credit ibid
Yeah, but at least he gets a tie.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 04:52 AM   #24
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,458
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Took years, was in the middle of the Pacific, had a plausible cover story, and was not obviously on top of the known location of the thing in question.

I think it would be blatantly obvious if the Russians had a recovery vessel in the Med, blatantly obvious if it were in the vicinity of the plane, and blatantly obvious what it was up to.

Unless they just have a recovery sub parked on the sea floor at all times in silent running, just in case a situation like this crops up.
Didn't they use it to sink the Estonia?
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 04:57 AM   #25
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,458
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post


Well done, that man, except I fear he will have to suffer ribbing and leg pulling for the rest of his career.


Graphics: credit ibid
Why?

He just joined the Martin-Baker 'Glow Worms' in the Ejection Tie Club

https://martin-baker.com/ejection-tie-club/
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 05:10 AM   #26
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,592
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why?

He just joined the Martin-Baker 'Glow Worms' in the Ejection Tie Club

https://martin-baker.com/ejection-tie-club/
How will it go down with his Wing Commander?

PILOT: Sorry Sir, I lost a plane - had to eject.

WC Huffington-Buffington: Good you're alive. Plane back in the hangar?

PILOT: Er, bottom of the Mediterranean Sea, Sir.

WC: Those friendly Spaniards and Italians will help fish it out, EU and all that. Jolly good, what-ho?

PILOT: You don't understand, Sir, it's not in Europe, it's in international waters, Sir, near Egypt.

WC: Bit of scrap metal for them, haha. Hundreds more where they came from -

PILOT: Sir, it was the latest F-35 -

WC: <visibly choking, turning puce>

PILOT: I'll help find it, Sir -

WC: We'll take it out of your wages.

PILOT: B-b-but it's £100,000,000, Sir.

WC: <splutter> But you've got the tie? What more do you want. Get out! Court martial him!

PILOT: Thank you, Sir.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 05:12 AM   #27
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,434
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Actually, I have a quality broadsheet delivered daily and am subscribed to the DAILY TELEGRAPH (special offer). This story is totally conducive to a comic strip, hence DM is the perfect purveyor of it.

DM


Well done, that man, except I fear he will have to suffer ribbing and leg pulling for the rest of his career.


Graphics: credit ibid

"Well done that man"?

Do you know the circumstances behind this aircraft's loss? Do you know that it was provably due to mechanical/electrical failure and not in any way due to pilot error?

You don't know what you're talking about. Let's wait to see whether the pilot gets either court-martialled or decorated before making fatuous statements like "well done that man", eh?
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 05:24 AM   #28
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,434
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What seems far fetched to me is that Russia or China could have recovery assets in the Med in time to get a look in. This isn't like snatching a downed plane out of the Balkans, or forcing one to land inside your borders. Do the Russians even have any ships in the Med right now?

Yes. Plus the US has more than enough assets to place the site under constant surveillance in multiple different ways. They'll know exactly who's sniffing around. And the Chinese and Russians will know that the US will know, and that Very Bad Things might happen if they were caught trying anything on.

"Race against time"? What a crock of Daily Mail crap.


Oh, and it's also very likely that the most sensitive/secretive electronics systems aboard that aircraft were/are capable of being totally destroyed in the event of the loss/capture of the aircraft, including remote destruction. So the likelihood is that even if the Chinese or Russians were able to get to the aircraft a) before the US and UK forces could and b) without the US/UK even knowing they were there (both of which I judge to be very highly unlikely in any event), they wouldn't find anything of value to them there anyhow.

The Russians and Chinese are far, far more likely to learn about the secret electronics capabilities of the F35 via industrial or military espionage than from diving down to this wrecked aircraft.

The Daily Mail joins Vixen in the "they don't know what they're talking about" club*.


ETA: * Maybe there should be a tie for membership of this club too.

Last edited by LondonJohn; 19th November 2021 at 05:45 AM.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 05:29 AM   #29
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,434
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Took years, was in the middle of the Pacific, had a plausible cover story, and was not obviously on top of the known location of the thing in question.

I think it would be blatantly obvious if the Russians had a recovery vessel in the Med, blatantly obvious if it were in the vicinity of the plane, and blatantly obvious what it was up to.

Unless they just have a recovery sub parked on the sea floor at all times in silent running, just in case a situation like this crops up.

Exactly. This "will the Russians or Chinese get there before the goodies do, and steal all our secrets?" breathlessness is nothing more than Bond-style nonsense from the Daily Mail (and sundry other similarly-ill-informed media outlets).
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 05:31 AM   #30
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,434
Side note: I bet neither the Daily Mail nor Vixen knows who HMS Queen Elizabeth is named for, and why (without Googling it, obviously).......
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 05:31 AM   #31
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,145
I think it is not impossible that somebody, not necessarily wing commander Huffington-Buffington, will have considered that each time the carrier launches an aircraft there is a chance of a failure which causes it to ditch, and to have thought through the consequences of having an intact* F35 playing submarines and what they might do next in that circumstance.

*Low mileage, one almost careful owner, full service history, £100M ono.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 05:34 AM   #32
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,434
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How will it go down with his Wing Commander?

PILOT: Sorry Sir, I lost a plane - had to eject.

WC Huffington-Buffington: Good you're alive. Plane back in the hangar?

PILOT: Er, bottom of the Mediterranean Sea, Sir.

WC: Those friendly Spaniards and Italians will help fish it out, EU and all that. Jolly good, what-ho?

PILOT: You don't understand, Sir, it's not in Europe, it's in international waters, Sir, near Egypt.

WC: Bit of scrap metal for them, haha. Hundreds more where they came from -

PILOT: Sir, it was the latest F-35 -

WC: <visibly choking, turning puce>

PILOT: I'll help find it, Sir -

WC: We'll take it out of your wages.

PILOT: B-b-but it's £100,000,000, Sir.

WC: <splutter> But you've got the tie? What more do you want. Get out! Court martial him!

PILOT: Thank you, Sir.

Jesus. Pitiful.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 05:36 AM   #33
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,434
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I think it is not impossible that somebody, not necessarily wing commander Huffington-Buffington, will have considered that each time the carrier launches an aircraft there is a chance of a failure which causes it to ditch, and to have thought through the consequences of having an intact* F35 playing submarines and what they might do next in that circumstance.

*Low mileage, one almost careful owner, full service history, £100M ono.

Exactly.

Funnily enough, this very obvious factor appears never to have occurred to those stellar journalists at the Daily Mail. Or to Vixen.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 05:36 AM   #34
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,458
Part of the dilemma of using new 'secret' technology.

In WW2 the Gloster Meteor jet fighters weren't allowed to fly over enemy territory in Europe in case one got shot down and the Germans recovered an engine and learned about RAF capability.
The Germans had jet engines but they weren't wonderful and in the event by that time the German air capability was so degraded they weren't really needed and spent their time intercepting V1 flying bombs and shooting them down.

Similarly when centimetric radar was developed a navigation set called 'HS2' was developed for bombers, it gave a map view of the ground below and at sea could resolve enough detail to spot U-boat conning towers and snorkels.

There was again reluctance to put them in to use over occupied territory in case the Germans got hold of one and learned about the Cavity Magnetron that made it work.
they were of course used as the extra capability they gave outweighed the risk of discovery.
In the end the Germans did capture a set but didn't realise what the Cavity Magnetron was and some of the scientists inspecting it thought the thing was a fake put in there to confuse them.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 05:39 AM   #35
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,458
On the 'take it out of your wages'

Spike Milligan met Harry Secombe in the Western Desert when he was looking for a field gun that had fallen in to a ravine nearly landing on the truck Secombe was sleeping in.
He always joked he was still paying for the gun.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 05:42 AM   #36
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,434
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Part of the dilemma of using new 'secret' technology.

In WW2 the Gloster Meteor jet fighters weren't allowed to fly over enemy territory in Europe in case one got shot down and the Germans recovered an engine and learned about RAF capability.
The Germans had jet engines but they weren't wonderful and in the event by that time the German air capability was so degraded they weren't really needed and spent their time intercepting V1 flying bombs and shooting them down.

Similarly when centimetric radar was developed a navigation set called 'HS2' was developed for bombers, it gave a map view of the ground below and at sea could resolve enough detail to spot U-boat conning towers and snorkels.

There was again reluctance to put them in to use over occupied territory in case the Germans got hold of one and learned about the Cavity Magnetron that made it work.
they were of course used as the extra capability they gave outweighed the risk of discovery.
In the end the Germans did capture a set but didn't realise what the Cavity Magnetron was and some of the scientists inspecting it thought the thing was a fake put in there to confuse them.

Indeed. The conundrum has usually been exactly this: that the locations where you'd want/need to deploy/apply this new technology are exactly the locations where you'd least like to lose this new technology.

The advent of long-range and satellite technology/weapons/defence systems has to a great degree solved this conundrum, but obviously there are still plenty of instances where you have little or no choice but to place your secrets into locations of potential jeopardy.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 06:00 AM   #37
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,434
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
In WW2 the Gloster Meteor jet fighters weren't allowed to fly over enemy territory in Europe in case one got shot down and the Germans recovered an engine and learned about RAF capability.
The Germans had jet engines but they weren't wonderful and in the event by that time the German air capability was so degraded they weren't really needed and spent their time intercepting V1 flying bombs and shooting them down.

Incidentally, exactly this also affected the deployment of the first US operational jet fighter, the Lockheed Shooting Star (which has consequently been pushed back into the shadows of history wrt WWII).

The USAAF originally had plans to ship hundreds of them over to Europe in late 1944 (they weren't suitable for the Asia-Pac theatre), but a combination of 1) the obvious signs that the war in Europe was reaching its end-game, with the imminent defeat of Nazi Germany, and 2) concerns about the technology falling into Soviet hands (the US weren't concerned about Germany per se at this point - other than the prospect of Germany somehow serving as a pathway back to USSR).... meant that only a few of them ever made it to Europe, where they dicked around doing trials in Italy and Corsica until they were withdrawn back to the US in mid-45.

Last edited by LondonJohn; 19th November 2021 at 06:02 AM.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 07:47 AM   #38
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,286
For that matter F-35s usually fly with radar reflectors on them, to make them more visible to radar. The idea is to not give potentially hostile nations the ability to try to pick up stealthy jets on radar, no ability to "practice" tracking one so to speak. Then if we needed to use them in a actual shooting war against an enemy with real air defense capability, we could take the reflectors off and use them stealthy for real.

Apparently there is some concern that Israel, while launching airstrikes against targets in Syria, may have been using their F-35s without radar reflectors close enough to Russian air defense sites for the Russians to "practice" this way. If so, Russia might be able to go over this data and eventually learn how to separate the wheat from the chaff and a program their systems to pick them up earlier.

Last edited by crescent; 19th November 2021 at 07:54 AM.
crescent is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 09:19 AM   #39
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,434
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
For that matter F-35s usually fly with radar reflectors on them, to make them more visible to radar. The idea is to not give potentially hostile nations the ability to try to pick up stealthy jets on radar, no ability to "practice" tracking one so to speak. Then if we needed to use them in a actual shooting war against an enemy with real air defense capability, we could take the reflectors off and use them stealthy for real.

Apparently there is some concern that Israel, while launching airstrikes against targets in Syria, may have been using their F-35s without radar reflectors close enough to Russian air defense sites for the Russians to "practice" this way. If so, Russia might be able to go over this data and eventually learn how to separate the wheat from the chaff and a program their systems to pick them up earlier.

All of the above is broadly true. In addition, when it comes to limited-warfare sub-critical strikes or peacetime exercises, allied stealth aircraft don't fly at wartime-operational speeds or (where applicable) in wartime-operational formations, for the same reason. And of course there are plenty of electronic-warfare systems (Radar jamming, electromagnetic comms jamming, and so on) that we don't employ - other than in very tightly controlled training & evaluation conditions such as those used at Nellis AFB in Nevada.

On the other hand, no nation can ever prevent itself from being porous to at least some degree, when it comes to state secrets (of any kind). So one can never be entirely certain whether the details of some or all of these advanced military systems might have been passed to enemies of "The West" - heck, it's can never be entirely discounted that the very guy who headed up the team that invented some of this stuff isn't passing it over to enemies for monetary/ideological/blackmail reasons.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th November 2021, 01:19 PM   #40
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,458
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
2) concerns about the technology falling into Soviet hands (the US weren't concerned about Germany per se at this point - other than the prospect of Germany somehow serving as a pathway back to USSR)
They shouldn't have worried about one of their jets falling in to Russian hands. They used the same RR engine as the Meteor, Rolls Royce sold some to the Russians just after the war.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:01 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.