IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 20th November 2021, 07:57 AM   #41
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,035
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I like the editorial spin in that last sentence.
BAe were involved in the F-35 project, therefore Russia and China know practically everything.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2021, 02:44 PM   #42
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,574
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
They shouldn't have worried about one of their jets falling in to Russian hands. They used the same RR engine as the Meteor, Rolls Royce sold some to the Russians just after the war.

No, by the time the aircraft had got to the pre-production stage (the aircraft sent over to Europe were pre-production models), they were using GE engines.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2021, 03:05 PM   #43
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,572
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No, by the time the aircraft had got to the pre-production stage (the aircraft sent over to Europe were pre-production models), they were using GE engines.
Which were W.2B/23 engines adapted for US production and also were the basis of the RR Derwent and Nene engines. Derwents and Nenes were sold to the Soviet Union by the British government, causing a major row, as the Nene was the most powerful production turbojet in the world at the time. The Soviets promptly reverse engineered to form the Klimov VK-1 for the MiG-15.

In the US the Nene was adapted for US production by Pratt & Whitney as the J42, and it powered the Grumman F9F Panther.
It wasn't much used in the UK as the Avon was also being developed by RR for the Canberra and went on to power the Hunter and Comet along with a mass of other aircraft and in it's final form the Lightning.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 21st November 2021 at 03:13 PM.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2021, 05:30 PM   #44
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,574
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Which were W.2B/23 engines adapted for US production and also were the basis of the RR Derwent and Nene engines. Derwents and Nenes were sold to the Soviet Union by the British government, causing a major row, as the Nene was the most powerful production turbojet in the world at the time. The Soviets promptly reverse engineered to form the Klimov VK-1 for the MiG-15.

In the US the Nene was adapted for US production by Pratt & Whitney as the J42, and it powered the Grumman F9F Panther.
It wasn't much used in the UK as the Avon was also being developed by RR for the Canberra and went on to power the Hunter and Comet along with a mass of other aircraft and in it's final form the Lightning.

Not to labour this point, but the engine used in those pre-production Shooting Stars was the J33, which had several US-originated technological innovations and evolutions - including a dramatic* increase in thrust - compared with the J31 (which was the US variant of the W.2B/23).

So there were most definitely things on the J33 engine which would have been of considerable interest to the Russians in early 1945.


* In fact, more than twice the thrust....
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2021, 05:53 PM   #45
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,572
J33 had 4,000 lbf (18 kN) of thrust as first designed and ended up with 4,600 lbf (20 kN) the Derwent had around 2,400 lbf (10.7 kN) depending on the version. That's why the Meteor had two.

To get the extra thrust the J33 was scaled up in size which is what RR did to produce the Nene with 5,000 lbf (22.2 kN). That's the one that was sold to the Soviets which is why it caused such a fuss.

The Derwent V that powered the later Meteors was a Nene reduced in diameter to fit the nacelles.

the large diameter needed to get high thrust in centrifugal compressor engines is the reason that development switched to axial flow designs. Nene was used mainly by the Soviets.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 21st November 2021 at 05:56 PM.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2021, 08:20 PM   #46
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 43,589
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Actually, I have a quality broadsheet delivered daily and am subscribed to the DAILY TELEGRAPH (special offer). This story is totally conducive to a comic strip, hence DM is the perfect purveyor of it.



DM





Well done, that man, except I fear he will have to suffer ribbing and leg pulling for the rest of his career.





Graphics: credit ibid
How much will they deduct from his pay each week to pay for it?
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
“Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2021, 05:36 AM   #47
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,574
Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
How much will they deduct from his pay each week to pay for it?



More to the point: how much will they deduct from his remaining career as an RAF pilot if he's found to have been substantially at fault for the loss of the aircraft?*

(Note that I'm not suggesting that this accident was necessarily due to pilot error in any significant manner. However, at this point in time, and with the (extremely limited) information in the public domain, pilot error remains firmly on the table as a possible cause (along with electrical/electronic failure or mechanical failure). One thing's for absolute certain at this point though: it's utterly ridiculous for anyone to be congratulating the pilot ("Well done that man" ), until/unless the full facts are known and those full facts fully or mainly exonerate the pilot....)



* Answer: all of it.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2021, 06:34 AM   #48
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,572
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post


More to the point: how much will they deduct from his remaining career as an RAF pilot if he's found to have been substantially at fault for the loss of the aircraft?*

(Note that I'm not suggesting that this accident was necessarily due to pilot error in any significant manner. However, at this point in time, and with the (extremely limited) information in the public domain, pilot error remains firmly on the table as a possible cause (along with electrical/electronic failure or mechanical failure). One thing's for absolute certain at this point though: it's utterly ridiculous for anyone to be congratulating the pilot ("Well done that man" ), until/unless the full facts are known and those full facts fully or mainly exonerate the pilot....)



* Answer: all of it.
But he steered it away from that school and saved all the fish!
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd November 2021, 06:38 AM   #49
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,574
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
But he steered it away from that school and saved all the fish!

"Will nobody think of all the leeetle feeeshies?!"
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2021, 08:50 AM   #50
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,740
Latest update, they are still trying to recover the sunken jet.


Quote:
There were concerns in NATO that Russia might attempt to get to the sunken wreck of the plane first and be able to glean insights into its cutting-edge technology.

"We'll get it first, I promise you," said Brigadier General Simon Doran, the top-ranking US officer on board.

"We're not concerned at all about recovering it," NATO's Deputy Supreme Allied Commander Europe, General Tim Radford, told journalists on board the vessel in the Mediterranean.

"We're not worried because we are working through the issue at the moment. There was obviously a concern when the plane went down. The pilot is safe which is the most important thing."

He and other officials declined to give any further details about the salvage effort.

Ads by
The commander of the nine-vessel allied strike group being led by HMS Queen Elizabeth, Commodore Steve Moorhouse, called the loss of the F-35B "a hugely unfortunate incident" and "a setback"
ND tv


Apparently, the pilots are part of the Number 617 Squadron, aka, the Dambusters.

Quote:
617 Squadron is a Royal Air Force aircraft squadron, originally based at RAF Scampton in Lincolnshire and currently based at RAF Marham in Norfolk.[3] It is commonly known as the "Dambusters", for its actions during Operation Chastise against German dams during the Second World War.
wiki


Cue: gratuitous excuse for the Dambusters theme.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2021-11-23 (2).jpg (31.2 KB, 4 views)
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2021, 04:49 PM   #51
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,868
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Latest update, they are still trying to recover the sunken jet.


Quote:
There were concerns in NATO that Russia might attempt to get to the sunken wreck of the plane first and be able to glean insights into its cutting-edge technology.

"We'll get it first, I promise you," said Brigadier General Simon Doran, the top-ranking US officer on board.

"We're not concerned at all about recovering it," NATO's Deputy Supreme Allied Commander Europe, General Tim Radford, told journalists on board the vessel in the Mediterranean.

"We're not worried because we are working through the issue at the moment. There was obviously a concern when the plane went down. The pilot is safe which is the most important thing."

He and other officials declined to give any further details about the salvage effort.

Ads by
The commander of the nine-vessel allied strike group being led by HMS Queen Elizabeth, Commodore Steve Moorhouse, called the loss of the F-35B "a hugely unfortunate incident" and "a setback"
ND tv
It's the military. They are not going to blab anything yet. Not until they have a solid result. AIUI, the aircraft ditched shortly after take off. It could be in a single piece. Or it could be in many pieces. Depends how hard it hit the sea. We don't know, so speculations is pointless.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Apparently, the pilots are part of the Number 617 Squadron, aka, the Dambusters.

Quote:
617 Squadron is a Royal Air Force aircraft squadron, originally based at RAF Scampton in Lincolnshire and currently based at RAF Marham in Norfolk.[3] It is commonly known as the "Dambusters", for its actions during Operation Chastise against German dams during the Second World War.
wiki


Cue: gratuitous excuse for the Dambusters theme.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Irrelevant. Actually I have no idea why you might think that is even vaguely relevant. The dambuster squadron flew Lancasters. How is that in any way connected to an F35B some 70 years later?

Are you suggesting that somehow that particular squadron designation makes it's pilots somehow more heroic? It does not. Nevertheless they are highly trained, same as any other squadron. The pilot bailed because that what he was trained to do in the circumstance in which he found himself. We know nothing more at this point.

For some reason, Vixen want's to assemble some mad conspiracy about it, in the absence of any actual evidence.

Now I wanted to get a PPL but ran out of loot. Nevertheless, I know quite a lot about it. Because it is a requirement before you even get airborne. Weirdly, not a legal requirement.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd November 2021, 05:45 PM   #52
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 74,444
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Irrelevant. Actually I have no idea why you might think that is even vaguely relevant.
Settle down. It's an interesting detail. I don't think it was intended to form any part of an argument.
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 01:32 AM   #53
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 32,946
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Settle down. It's an interesting detail. I don't think it was intended to form any part of an argument.
And I strongly suspect that it matters very much to the current members of 617 Squadron that they're carrying on the legacy of the 1943 squadron members. Tradition is hugely important to the forces.

Dave
__________________
There is truth and there are lies.

- President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 01:53 AM   #54
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,868
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
And I strongly suspect that it matters very much to the current members of 617 Squadron that they're carrying on the legacy of the 1943 squadron members. Tradition is hugely important to the forces.

Dave
Sure. It likely does. If anything, one should conclude that a member of 617 would not have ejected without a damn good reason.

Some other folks reach very different conclusions.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 03:41 AM   #55
erwinl
Illuminator
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,039
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Sure. It likely does. If anything, one should conclude that a member of 617 would not have ejected without a damn good reason.

Some other folks reach very different conclusions.
If anything, we can say that this member of 617 squadron damn well busted his plane.

(I'll get my coat).
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 03:50 AM   #56
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 43,589
Speculation on an aviation forum some remove before flight tags may not have been removed.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
“Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 05:15 AM   #57
erwinl
Illuminator
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,039
Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Speculation on an aviation forum some remove before flight tags may not have been removed.
Hmmm.
If (and that would be an IF at this stage) this is true, this could well point to some serious workflow related issues there.
Either discipline, training of operational tempo related ones.
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 05:29 AM   #58
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 12,206
Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
If anything, we can say that this member of 617 squadron damn well busted his plane.

(I'll get my coat).
The vital question is did it bounce?
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 05:48 AM   #59
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,574
Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Speculation on an aviation forum some remove before flight tags may not have been removed.

Blimey, that post took me a few seconds to parse in the absence of quotation marks around "remove before flight"

Personally, I'd be somewhat surprised if this speculation linked back to a primary source. When these sorts of events take place, there's a strict "lock the doors" protocol that immediately kicks into place: everybody with even the slightest involvement is warned that it's a very serious disciplinary offence if they're found to have leaked information ahead of the official investigation and report. In military aviation, this is an extremely important - and extremely strongly enforced - rule.

So it might be speculation on the part of someone who has a good understanding of the F35's flight systems and the possible adverse outcomes if certain "remove before flight" tags are not removed before flight. Or it might be a leak from someone who knows what actually happened in this instance. But as I said, I'd be far, far more surprised if it was the latter rather than the former.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 05:54 AM   #60
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,574
Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Hmmm.
If (and that would be an IF at this stage) this is true, this could well point to some serious workflow related issues there.
Either discipline, training of operational tempo related ones.

(and with reference to my previous post...)

An important factor to consider wrt those "remove before flight" tags is that - for obvious reasons - they're designed to be very noticeable (in my prior experience, they always used to have long red or dayglo-stripe "ribbons" attached to them, which were highly noticeable against either standard camouflage drab or flat grey, but the ones used on carrier-borne F35s might be different).

It would (again, in my experience only) be very difficult for an aircraft to get all the way to take-off without at least someone with abort authority noticing. But that's not to say of course that it couldn't happen, because clearly there's some degree of possibility that it could.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 06:57 AM   #61
erwinl
Illuminator
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,039
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
(and with reference to my previous post...)

An important factor to consider wrt those "remove before flight" tags is that - for obvious reasons - they're designed to be very noticeable (in my prior experience, they always used to have long red or dayglo-stripe "ribbons" attached to them, which were highly noticeable against either standard camouflage drab or flat grey, but the ones used on carrier-borne F35s might be different).

It would (again, in my experience only) be very difficult for an aircraft to get all the way to take-off without at least someone with abort authority noticing. But that's not to say of course that it couldn't happen, because clearly there's some degree of possibility that it could.
Exactly.
One would expect the workflow present on an airport or carrier to be so robust, that a thing like this simply cannot happen.
I found some photgraphs of F-35 planes in hangars (so not on a carrier) and the 'remove before flight' ribbons are very red indeed.

Although there's that whole swiss cheese and holes lining up stuff that messes things up.

Nothing else to do than wait for the report (which could very well take some months to clear).
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 01:25 PM   #62
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,574
Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Exactly.
One would expect the workflow present on an airport or carrier to be so robust, that a thing like this simply cannot happen.
I found some photgraphs of F-35 planes in hangars (so not on a carrier) and the 'remove before flight' ribbons are very red indeed.

Although there's that whole swiss cheese and holes lining up stuff that messes things up.

Nothing else to do than wait for the report (which could very well take some months to clear).

Yep. And part of my point (and, I suspect, yours) is that even if for some reason the system broke down to the extent that one or more of these tags was inadvertently left in.... it's hard to see quite how nobody would have spotted the tag(s) - at a point when there are multiple eyes on the aircraft - in the time period where the aircraft gets moved into TO position on the deck, performs the last-minute pre-TO checklist, and spools up.

As you say, the prudent and logically-correct thing to do is to wait for reliable information and supporting evidence to emerge. And as I said in a previous post (and as you agree), I'd be highly surprised if that position were to be reached any time prior to at least any interim investigation findings being publicly released.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 01:44 PM   #63
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,572
Here is how they used to do it.
A days flying on Ark Royal.
Everything was signed for, serviceability of each system, etc, final signature by the pilot.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 24th November 2021 at 01:52 PM.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 02:11 PM   #64
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,574
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Here is how they used to do it.
A days flying on Ark Royal.
Everything was signed for, serviceability of each system, etc, final signature by the pilot.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Ahhhhhh the Buccaneer!! One of my father's three career front-line aircraft - though in its RAF variant rather than RN. I've flown in the back seat three times, twice with my father piloting.

Yes, especially on a carrier - where the flight deck is a hectic, crowded environment (especially, of course, in a real combat situation) - it's paramount to have robust systems in place for these sorts of things. I can only imagine that things have got even more robust since those days. Only time will tell whether it was any sort of breakdown in these systems which contributed to - or caused - this F-35 incident to occur.



Small indulgence: about 15 years ago, I bought my father for Christmas a Corgi die-cast model of the Buccaneer, in his squadron's livery. I thought it was pretty cool that Corgi did a version for his squadron (15 Squadron, fact fans), since there were probably 7 or 8 RAF squadrons flying the Buccaneer operationally over the years. So I thought (correctly) that he'd be tickled to get the model (for those who don't know, these Corgi die-cast models really are beautiful things - totally different from something like an Airfix model - and they're pretty collectable items).

Anyhow, he opened it up on Christmas Day and was really pleased with it, and we set it up on its stand and admired it. Then he disappeared up to the attic and came down with several of his flight log books from that time period. He soon confirmed that the serial number on the model (which I'd thought was prob just a placeholder) was the true serial number of one of 15's aircraft. And of course he'd flown that very aircraft dozens and dozens of times. Which was rather cool.

Additional indulgence on my part: the RAF Museum in Hendon (London) has two aircraft on display which were flown by my father: a Canberra (his first aircraft) and a Buccaneer from one of the Operational Conversion Units (where pilots who are transferring onto a new aircraft type go to get fully up to speed with the new aircraft before going on to an operational front-line squadron).

Indulgence over!
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 02:26 PM   #65
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,740
News item: plastic rain covers left on during take-off. No time to abort take-off so the pilot/s ejected instead.

Quote:
In an exclusive story titled ‘”Flop Gun!” £100million Royal Navy fighter jet crashed ‘because cheap plastic rain cover was left on during take-off’ Jerome Starkey wrote on Nov. 23:

Sailors saw a red cover floating in the sea after the stealth jet splashed into the Mediterranean.

A source said: “They knew almost right away.

“The covers and engine blanks are supposed to be removed before flight.

“The ground crew do it and they are incredibly strict.

“Then the pilot walks round.”

The Navy pilot tried to abort take-off but ran out of runway so had to eject.

If confirmed, the crash of the F-35B would have been caused by a catastrophic chain of failures (by more than one person) in following the standard taxi and take off procedures, that will certainly include multiple visual checks of the actual removal of the air intake covers and safety pins (which are in red color and have the usual “Remove Before Flight” sign to attract the attention and prevent this kind of incidents).
The Aviationist
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 02:55 PM   #66
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,574
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
News item: plastic rain covers left on during take-off. No time to abort take-off so the pilot/s ejected instead.

The Aviationist

I'll wait for the official investigation and report. (For reasons which I've already set out.)


ETA: The F-35 is a single-seat aircraft with a single flight crew member (who performs the twin duties of pilot and weapons officer). And in any event, all fighters and fighter-bombers in current military service - even where they have two flight crew - only ever have one pilot. The other person is a navigator and/or weapons officer, who doesn't fly the aircraft.

Last edited by LondonJohn; 24th November 2021 at 03:24 PM.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 02:56 PM   #67
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 55,028
My dad has always been interested in airplanes and flying. When he retired, he seized the opportunity to take flying lessons. Turns out actual flying is like 0% slipping the surly bonds of earth, and 100% constantly running checklists.
__________________
There is no Antimemetics Division.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 03:00 PM   #68
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,574
(And I note that the original report* is in The Sun. Hardly a bastion of responsible/scrupulous journalism. So yeah, I'll wait. And on the offchance that The Sun did have a first-person source from among the ship's crew, well I hope that crewmember's career gets a hefty kick if/when he/she is discovered.)


* which should have been the report directly linked to here, and not the secondary media source (The Aviationist) which was merely reporting on the first media source. Still not got your head round proper sourcing huh, Vixen?
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 03:18 PM   #69
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,574
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My dad has always been interested in airplanes and flying. When he retired, he seized the opportunity to take flying lessons. Turns out actual flying is like 0% slipping the surly bonds of earth, and 100% constantly running checklists.

Hahaha yeah, coming from scratch there's a heck of a lot of book learning, classroom training, procedure-memorising and checklist-learning before anyone gets the chance to aviate.

But the truth is that even as little as a year into training, a decent pilot will have developed a sixth-sense for all this information and the procedural requirements. The many checklists still have to be done, but they're so ingrained into the pilot's DNA by that point that they're second nature. So it's really painful and somewhat mind-boggling at the start, but before long it starts to get a lot easier and more instinctual.

In my father's entire career, and in my shorter flying career, there was very little automation of flying, so most of the time it really was a case of making sure you did the basics right: looking out of the cockpit frequently, monitoring (and trusting) the three most important instruments in particular, knowing where you were, knowing what was around you in terms of other traffic etc, and being properly on top of radio comms. It wouldn't have been a good idea to have a head cluttered up with theory etc.

But for a few decades now, civil aviation has become hugely automated - to the degree that all airliners can now effectively fly themselves from the departure runway to the arrival runway (and flight crew mainly do manual TO/landings to keep their practice and their certification up). And over the past 10-15 years, military strike aircraft have developed far more automation: the pilot of an F35 is an electronics controller and a weapons officer at least as much as he/she is an aviator.

(To take an example: modern strike aircraft have sophisticated radar & radio-altimeter systems linked to the flight computers, which will fly the aircraft automatically at very low levels over undulating terrain with very little risk of impact. By contrast, when my father was flying operationally out of Germany and Cyprus, he'd have to do a lot of training flying below 100ft and at speeds well above 500MPH, all flown entirely manually. At those heights and those speeds, even a small error or loss in concentration could (and would) prove fatal - my Dad lost three colleagues (one of whom was a close family friend) over the years in low-flying training. But the training simply had to be done. These days, fortunately, computers take hair-raising jobs like that out of the pilot's hands.)
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 03:28 PM   #70
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,574
(Sad addendum to my previous post: when a military aircraft makes a hard impact with an igneous rock hillside at very high speed....... there's usually nothing left to collect of the flight crew (especially the pilot up front, who has virtually nothing to absorb the frontal impact). For all three funerals of the guys I mentioned, they had empty coffins.)
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 03:41 PM   #71
Doubt
Philosopher
 
Doubt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,220
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
The vital question is did it bounce?
Not enough back spin.
__________________
45 es un titere
Doubt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 03:44 PM   #72
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,572
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Ahhhhhh the Buccaneer!! One of my father's three career front-line aircraft - though in its RAF variant rather than RN. I've flown in the back seat three times, twice with my father piloting.

Yes, especially on a carrier - where the flight deck is a hectic, crowded environment (especially, of course, in a real combat situation) - it's paramount to have robust systems in place for these sorts of things. I can only imagine that things have got even more robust since those days. Only time will tell whether it was any sort of breakdown in these systems which contributed to - or caused - this F-35 incident to occur.



Small indulgence: about 15 years ago, I bought my father for Christmas a Corgi die-cast model of the Buccaneer, in his squadron's livery. I thought it was pretty cool that Corgi did a version for his squadron (15 Squadron, fact fans), since there were probably 7 or 8 RAF squadrons flying the Buccaneer operationally over the years. So I thought (correctly) that he'd be tickled to get the model (for those who don't know, these Corgi die-cast models really are beautiful things - totally different from something like an Airfix model - and they're pretty collectable items).

Anyhow, he opened it up on Christmas Day and was really pleased with it, and we set it up on its stand and admired it. Then he disappeared up to the attic and came down with several of his flight log books from that time period. He soon confirmed that the serial number on the model (which I'd thought was prob just a placeholder) was the true serial number of one of 15's aircraft. And of course he'd flown that very aircraft dozens and dozens of times. Which was rather cool.

Additional indulgence on my part: the RAF Museum in Hendon (London) has two aircraft on display which were flown by my father: a Canberra (his first aircraft) and a Buccaneer from one of the Operational Conversion Units (where pilots who are transferring onto a new aircraft type go to get fully up to speed with the new aircraft before going on to an operational front-line squadron).

Indulgence over!
We did exercises with Buccaneers several times aboard ship..
They flew incredibly low, they didn't appear out of the clutter until they were almost on you. They also flew in a very tight formation so on the plot they looked like one aircraft. they came over so low and banked over the ship that I swear that once the wing tip was between the masts.
My cousin Carol married a Buccaneer pilot. He just retired as a squadron leader, he was in control of the Drones flying over Iraq and Afghanistan.
The rotating bomb bay was always a good place to stow kit when flying abroad and made a good stowage for the booze he brought back.

Here's a film of RAF Buccaneers attacking HMS Kent with a Martel video guided missile. 1978
(ignore the misplaced sonar sounds)

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 24th November 2021 at 03:45 PM.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 04:18 PM   #73
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,574
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
We did exercises with Buccaneers several times aboard ship..
They flew incredibly low, they didn't appear out of the clutter until they were almost on you. They also flew in a very tight formation so on the plot they looked like one aircraft. they came over so low and banked over the ship that I swear that once the wing tip was between the masts.
My cousin Carol married a Buccaneer pilot. He just retired as a squadron leader, he was in control of the Drones flying over Iraq and Afghanistan.
The rotating bomb bay was always a good place to stow kit when flying abroad and made a good stowage for the booze he brought back.

Here's a film of RAF Buccaneers attacking HMS Kent with a Martel video guided missile. 1978
(ignore the misplaced sonar sounds)

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Halcyon Days of the Cold War

My father (who was too old for operational flying by then anyhow) was one of the OC Ops for liaison between the RAF and US Central Command during Gulf War I. And 15-Squadron Buccaneers performed with distinction in that conflict - the squadron was actually mid-conversion to Tornado at the time, but pulled all the Buccaneers out of the mothballs (and painted them that nice pinky-sandy colour) because they turned out to be the ideal aircraft for using in laser guiding of aerial ordnance.

Funnily enough, even though the foldable wings on the Buccaneer were specifically and solely designed with carrier operations in mind, the RAF used to regularly store its Buccaneers with wings folded. The quirky rear air brake (also specifically designed for landing on carriers) rarely saw action though!


ETA: Those particular Buccaneers were - if I remember my squadron crests correctly(!) - from 12 Squadron out of either Cottesmore or Lossiemouth (they moved bases at somewhere around that time)

ETA2: And yes, the quality of flying in those days was incredible. The combination of height and tight formation took real skill (though while close formation perhaps appears more impressive, it's easier to do than very low flying at high speed). A lot of my father's squadron colleagues had detachments with the Red Arrows (my father was part of a multinational weapons-testing programme (including testing and certification for the Pave Spike laser designator system, which was the very reason why Buccaneers were brought out of retirement many years later for Gulf War I) for most of the years when the Arrows would even have been a possibility, so he wasn't even considered - but in any case, he'd always said that he'd choose operational flying over air displays and cocktail parties )

Last edited by LondonJohn; 24th November 2021 at 04:32 PM.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 04:32 PM   #74
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,572
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Halcyon Days of the Cold War

My father (who was too old for operational flying by then anyhow) was one of the OC Ops for liaison between the RAF and US Central Command during Gulf War I. And 15-Squadron Buccaneers performed with distinction in that conflict - the squadron was actually mid-conversion to Tornado at the time, but pulled all the Buccaneers out of the mothballs (and painted them that nice pinky-sandy colour) because they turned out to be the ideal aircraft for using in laser guiding of aerial ordnance.

Funnily enough, even though the foldable wings on the Buccaneer were specifically and solely designed with carrier operations in mind, the RAF used to regularly store its Buccaneers with wings folded. The quirky rear air brake (also specifically designed for landing on carriers) rarely saw action though!
Optimised to fly very low and take maximum advantage of 'surface effect'. Very clean lines with a strict 'area rule' design and rotating bomb bay to keep it 'clean' and enhance transonic performance. So called 'boundary layer control' which bled high pressure air from the engines, which was "blown" against various parts of the aircraft's wing surfaces to increase lift at low speeds for carrier takeoff and recovery and also as part of the 'self trimming' system that let it sit at an incredibly low height above the sea surface.
That air brake was part of the boundary layer control system and also the 'dive-attack' system.

US Navy considered it but went with the Grumman A-6 Intruder and the Germans were going to go for it for the maritime strike role but went with the totally unsuitable Starfighter after those responsible for procurement were bribed by Lockheed.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 04:41 PM   #75
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,574
And, just FYI, here is the Corgi die-cast 15-Squadron Buccaneer I bought for my father. It can currently be yours for just £73.99




(The only small shame is that the roundels are of the older design with the white portion - by the time my dad arrived on 15, they'd been repainted with the blue-red roundels)
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th November 2021, 07:13 PM   #76
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 37,572
The Airfix kit, while a bit old can be built in to a good model with some aftermarket parts.



Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2021, 03:04 AM   #77
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 32,749
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
By contrast, when my father was flying operationally out of Germany and Cyprus, he'd have to do a lot of training flying below 100ft and at speeds well above 500MPH, all flown entirely manually. At those heights and those speeds, even a small error or loss in concentration could (and would) prove fatal - my Dad lost three colleagues (one of whom was a close family friend) over the years in low-flying training. But the training simply had to be done.


This is exactly the day when I decided that I did not want to be a fast jet pilot after all.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/55368

I would have failed the selection process in any case due to poor eyesight and an inability to multitask.
The Don is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2021, 03:42 AM   #78
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,574
Originally Posted by The Don View Post


This is exactly the day when I decided that I did not want to be a fast jet pilot after all.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/55368

I would have failed the selection process in any case due to poor eyesight and an inability to multitask.

Oh my gosh my father actually sat on the Board of Inquiry for that incident. The RAF - and military aviation in general - learned some good lessons about the phenomenon of spatial disorientation as a result.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2021, 05:22 AM   #79
Reactor drone
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,208
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Part of the dilemma of using new 'secret' technology.

In WW2 the Gloster Meteor jet fighters weren't allowed to fly over enemy territory in Europe in case one got shot down and the Germans recovered an engine and learned about RAF capability.
The Germans had jet engines but they weren't wonderful and in the event by that time the German air capability was so degraded they weren't really needed and spent their time intercepting V1 flying bombs and shooting them down.

Similarly when centimetric radar was developed a navigation set called 'HS2' was developed for bombers, it gave a map view of the ground below and at sea could resolve enough detail to spot U-boat conning towers and snorkels.

There was again reluctance to put them in to use over occupied territory in case the Germans got hold of one and learned about the Cavity Magnetron that made it work.
they were of course used as the extra capability they gave outweighed the risk of discovery.
In the end the Germans did capture a set but didn't realise what the Cavity Magnetron was and some of the scientists inspecting it thought the thing was a fake put in there to confuse them.
The Germans did figure out the cavity magnetron after getting hold of a couple from H2S radars and had a working centimetric AI set before the end of the war in the form of the FuG 240 Berlin.
Reactor drone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th November 2021, 06:54 AM   #80
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 18,574
Originally Posted by Reactor drone View Post
The Germans did figure out the cavity magnetron after getting hold of a couple from H2S radars and had a working centimetric AI set before the end of the war in the form of the FuG 240 Berlin.

Wow, that's some impressive high-information contribution right there!
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:45 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.