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Tags assault incidents , protest incidents , Wisconsin incidents

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Old 22nd November 2021, 02:17 PM   #81
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and Coffin?
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Old 22nd November 2021, 02:19 PM   #82
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Source




Source

The entire basis of us being a species that can even (kind of) do civilization is due to important evolutionary events throughout our species' history where certain types of individuals became more or less common.

If you want to continue to be a species that can "do civilization" it is necessary to prune undesirable genetic traits like propensity for violence, low impulse control, etc.

A huge culling of anyone with criminal / violent tendencies is exactly what must occur.

You can either hope that we somehow manage to pull this off with gene editing, or you can sign on to what I'm talking about. Spoiler alert: gene editing will come too slowly and face too much opposition.

Blimey (as we say on my side of the Pond)
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Old 22nd November 2021, 02:19 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
You can't see how the setting of cash bail - with its twin facets of a) the prospect of incurring a harmful financial penalty and/or b) the assistance offered by bail bond enforcers in assisting LE in tracking down bail-absconders - offers at least something in-between the all-or-nothing of remand or unconditional bail?
Nope. If you area flight risk, I don't think cash bail is any more helpful than the risk of jail time for skipping out on trial. If you are a violent threat, I don't see how cash bail helps that.

Instead, if you are a flight risk or otherwise a threat, there's other tactics that can be taken to get you out of jail until trial - like ankle monitors or something of that sort.

I do not think cash bail does anything to prevent people from failing to show up for trial or prevent them from committing any crimes while awaiting trial. All it does is punish people who can't afford the cash bail.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 02:24 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I
When you graft onto that the capacity for individual/collective/systemic incompetence, I'd say it's grimly inevitable that every now and then an outrage such as this is going to occur. But is there a one-shot panacea? I really don't think there is.
No, the idea is to grab on to a rare outcome and cynically use it to score political points by arguing for simple and draconian policies that sound tough on crime but make things way worse.

A no cash bond policy is a really easy target for this sort of thing because the downside of people getting out and committing another crime is way more obvious and tangible than the downsides of incarcerating people pending trial unless they and/or their families pay money for their freedom.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 02:28 PM   #85
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From the videos that I've seen it looks like he didn't end up in that place with the intention of killing anyone as his first choice. He drives the length of the crowd-lined parade route ignoring multitudes of potential victims until he arrives at the rear of the marching band which takes up the whole road.

From the overhead video, it looks like he hesitates; he definitely slows down and seems like he intends to try and get around the band at first; but when it becomes clear that's not going to happen he just says f-word it and plows through. Not getting caught for whatever crime he was fleeing from takes priority over not hurting anyone; seemingly a common thread among the suspects in high-speed vehicle chases. Not surprising I suppose, since that original crime had been stabbing a person - i.e, trying to kill them, probably over something stupid.

Looks like he's already been charged with murder, so that's that it would seem.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 02:34 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
The obvious middle-ground is ankle-tracking (or getting the vaccine).

To a degree, but......

1) Criminals out on a tag are increasingly finding ways to frustrate the technology (and criminals of all demographics and ethnicities are very accomplished at learning and disseminating this sort of information).

2) It's very difficult to impose tagging conditions which amount to a 24-hour curfew - meaning that the person in question can still be out committing crimes against the person, just in daylight hours instead.

3) No matter the length of curfew, tags do not stop people engaging in intimidation, and nor does it stop them from consorting with other criminals within their home (provided those other criminals aren't on tags too, of course).


And the important difference between bail and tags is that for many people, they're prepared to take certain risks on a tag that they're not prepared to take while on cash bail. There's an obvious reason for this: the consequence for getting caught breaking conditions when on a tag is a return to custody (plus potential additional charges); the consequence for getting caught breaking conditions when on cash bail is a return to custody (plus potential additional charges) plus a significant (to the person) financial penalty.


On top of that additional level of "self-policing" provided by cash bail, there's a further benefit of cash bail: if the person has had to get a friend or family member to post bail, then 1) that friend or family member is likely to put emotional pressure on the person not to breach bail conditions, and 2) if the person does breach bail conditions, the friend or family member is likely to at the very least put pressure on the person to hand themselves in (and occasionally will actually assist law enforcement in locating and capturing the person).

Plus there's the benefit I mentioned earlier: that where commercial bail bond houses become involved, they can do a lot of LE's dirty work for them in terms of tracing and corralling absconders.



ETA: Hehe
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Old 22nd November 2021, 02:41 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
No, the idea is to grab on to a rare outcome and cynically use it to score political points by arguing for simple and draconian policies that sound tough on crime but make things way worse.

A no cash bond policy is a really easy target for this sort of thing because the downside of people getting out and committing another crime is way more obvious and tangible than the downsides of incarcerating people pending trial unless they and/or their families pay money for their freedom.

Yes.

And as I said, the system would very quickly fall over and break if virtually everyone in this sort of situation were either a) flat-out refused bail and remanded into custody or b) granted bail, but at a price so high that neither they nor anyone they knew would realistically be able to afford it, and nor would any commercial bond house put that quantum of money at risk in those circumstances - so in other words setting bail too high would be tantamount to refusing bail in practice.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 02:45 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
From the videos that I've seen it looks like he didn't end up in that place with the intention of killing anyone as his first choice. He drives the length of the crowd-lined parade route ignoring multitudes of potential victims until he arrives at the rear of the marching band which takes up the whole road.

From the overhead video, it looks like he hesitates; he definitely slows down and seems like he intends to try and get around the band at first; but when it becomes clear that's not going to happen he just says f-word it and plows through. Not getting caught for whatever crime he was fleeing from takes priority over not hurting anyone; seemingly a common thread among the suspects in high-speed vehicle chases. Not surprising I suppose, since that original crime had been stabbing a person - i.e, trying to kill them, probably over something stupid.

Looks like he's already been charged with murder, so that's that it would seem.

I totally agree with your assessment of the situation and the putative motive & intent of this man.

And from the evidence that's already in the public domain, I can't see the state having any trouble at all securing convictions (correctly) for murder: to me, this is very obviously well above any manslaughter (or equivalent) threshold.

It's been quite a week for Wisconsin.....


ETA: Waits for someone to add yesterday's Packers result to the Wisconsin tale of woe

Last edited by LondonJohn; 22nd November 2021 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 03:11 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh goodie the racists have a statistically meaningless example to harp on from now until the walls falls that prove racism is a librul myth and white people are the real victims.
↑↑↑Clown world↑↑↑


↓↓↓Real world↓↓↓

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Old 22nd November 2021, 03:42 PM   #90
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Jason Whitlock on Twitter:

Quote:
Had Darrell Brooks been black, no way police take him into custody alive. #WhitePrivilege
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Old 22nd November 2021, 03:45 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post

The entire basis of us being a species that can even (kind of) do civilization is due to important evolutionary events throughout our species' history where certain types of individuals became more or less common.

If you want to continue to be a species that can "do civilization" it is necessary to prune undesirable genetic traits like propensity for violence, low impulse control, etc.

A huge culling of anyone with criminal / violent tendencies is exactly what must occur.

You can either hope that we somehow manage to pull this off with gene editing, or you can sign on to what I'm talking about. Spoiler alert: gene editing will come too slowly and face too much opposition.
Ethnic cleansing, by the sounds of it.

Are you a believer in a 'master race'? If so, it wouldn't happen to be the Aryan race, would it?
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Old 22nd November 2021, 04:38 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Ethnic cleansing, by the sounds of it.

Are you a believer in a 'master race'? If so, it wouldn't happen to be the Aryan race, would it?
The articles I linked talked about this being done / beneficial during the middle ages in Europe, in an entirely white context. So this was not "ethnic cleansing" or anything about a master race.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 04:51 PM   #93
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So another round of "race" being emphasized as

1. a weak tit-for-tat against the narrative of rampage killers in the U.S. being mostly white (which is true, but for unremarkable reasons)

or

2. yet more evidence of black crime

And spectacular fail for these people to claim CNN refused to cover it.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 04:54 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
On Nov 2 when he had contact with all the people he had court orders not to (as a condition of his 2020 bail), punched his ex in the face, then ran over her leg (with the same Ford Escape), then ignored police, locked himself in a house and resisted arrest, already had an open charge of 'bail jumping', and TWO open cases involving multiple felonies involving violence and guns....

They gave him bail of $1000?

It's the systemic racism built into the white supremacist judicial system, obviously.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 04:58 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Ethnic cleansing, by the sounds of it.

Are you a believer in a 'master race'? If so, it wouldn't happen to be the Aryan race, would it?
Just ignore it. This isn't the first time that poster has launched into a full-on cartoon villain speech. It shocked me a little the first time I saw it, too.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 05:00 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
The articles I linked talked about this being done / beneficial during the middle ages in Europe, in an entirely white context. So this was not "ethnic cleansing" or anything about a master race.
Yes, the Middle Ages. Civilization really had it figured out back then.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 05:13 PM   #97
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Wouldn't the willingness to "cull'" itself count as a "violent tendency"?
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Old 22nd November 2021, 05:16 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Just ignore it. This isn't the first time that poster has launched into a full-on cartoon villain speech. It shocked me a little the first time I saw it, too.
Don't ignore it, but do contextualize it and better, compare to the arguments of the 'totally not racists'. Avowed white supremacists and other racists often are making the exact same arguments as mainstream conservatives but the latter have a better veil.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 05:24 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Ethnic cleansing, by the sounds of it.

Are you a believer in a 'master race'? If so, it wouldn't happen to be the Aryan race, would it?
Skeptic Tank isn't proposing killing all the black people. They're proposing killing all the poor people. It just so happens that a lot of the poor people are also black.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 05:44 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
To a degree, but......
I'll preface my remarks by saying I'm not against cash bail full stop. As I'm sure you'll agree, electronic surveillance is a useful tool, not a panacea. In the case of this Wisconsin criminal, the state could have compelled him to finance ankle monitoring, which may have prevented all of this carnage. Remanding him to custody would have almost certainly prevented the atrocities.

Saying criminals are "increasingly finding ways" to circumvent the tech means little to me without the estimated base rate. I'm sure there are plenty of Youtube videos about how to hack the monitor -- as there is no shortage of videos about how to break out of handcuffs and zip-ties. In terms of relative effectiveness over time, it's a constant arms race to build a better mousetrap.

Maybe there's a language divide on "curfew," but I wouldn't want most people to be in quarantine for 24 hours. The majority on monitoring should spend most of their day at work (persistent, jobless criminal underclass addressed later).

Re: Intimidation and consorting with criminals
I do not see how this is different than cash bail. Intimidation is even carried out from behind bars. Electronic monitoring only needs to be better in some respects than the current regime.

Quote:
And the important difference between bail and tags is that for many people, they're prepared to take certain risks on a tag that they're not prepared to take while on cash bail. There's an obvious reason for this: the consequence for getting caught breaking conditions when on a tag is a return to custody (plus potential additional charges); the consequence for getting caught breaking conditions when on cash bail is a return to custody (plus potential additional charges) plus a significant (to the person) financial penalty.

On top of that additional level of "self-policing" provided by cash bail, there's a further benefit of cash bail: if the person has had to get a friend or family member to post bail, then 1) that friend or family member is likely to put emotional pressure on the person not to breach bail conditions, and 2) if the person does breach bail conditions, the friend or family member is likely to at the very least put pressure on the person to hand themselves in (and occasionally will actually assist law enforcement in locating and capturing the person).
You make good points. I'm not keen on seeing taxpayers fund all of this electronic surveillance. People should pay for their own monitor, including some who are indigent. I don't want to live in a society where GoFundMe raises money for surgery, but I don't mind using it to pay for tracking. In the case of a persistent criminal underclass, those who have no jobs to work during the day, no assets for collateral, and no family, friends, ministries, or bail bond companies willing to pony up the cash -- in other words, nothing left to lose -- then, well, they probably belong in custody.

A case from California that made national news involved a homeless man's crime spree. Dude was found in a stolen car with a meth pipe. Hours after release he stole a tip jar. After he was caught and arrested for that crime, he stole a flatbed truck parked in front of the police station! Now that's just ridiculous, and, granted, the situation is exacerbated by COVID protocols, but if you've been released back into the community, and continue to crime, then, I'm sorry, as much as I hate to say it, there's been a failure to communicate.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 05:47 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Wouldn't the willingness to "cull'" itself count as a "violent tendency"?
Depends if you're in an abortion thread or not.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 06:58 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Don't ignore it, but do contextualize it and better, compare to the arguments of the 'totally not racists'. Avowed white supremacists and other racists often are making the exact same arguments as mainstream conservatives but the latter have a better veil.

Really great point!


We have them all in one thread today. It is a great time to be a troll, racist and/or ignorant. So cute to see them hanging out together jerkin' each other off. They are so empowered!
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Old 22nd November 2021, 07:11 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
↑↑↑Clown world↑↑↑


↓↓↓Real world↓↓↓

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ictureid=12980
Again say that with your avatar AND a straight face.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 07:14 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Avowed white supremacists and other racists often are making the exact same arguments as mainstream conservatives but the latter have a better veil.
LOUDER FOR PEOPLE IN THE BACK.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 07:15 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Yes, the Middle Ages. Civilization really had it figured out back then.
Yup...

Women accused of being witches, anyone who questioned the teachings of the church, accused of stealing a loaf of bread, ......cleansed with extreme prejudice
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Old 22nd November 2021, 07:23 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Skeptic Tank isn't proposing killing all the black people. They're proposing killing all the poor people.
No, he's not:

Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
How about if you are someone who commits violent offenses against other members of society, in the form of provable physical domestic abuse, unprovoked assaults on other people, rape, knife crime and gun crime of any kind - we just straight up execute you?
It's just that the people that would end up being killed by this criterion would be disproportionately poor and disproportionately black. He also says second or third strike somewhere inn a later post. I don't think any of that is too radical, although I'm not sure the extent to which I agree. Probably more than most here.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 07:30 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
No, he's not:



It's just that the people that would end up being killed by this criterion would be disproportionately poor and disproportionately black. He also says second or third strike somewhere inn a later post. I don't think any of that is too radical, although I'm not sure the extent to which I agree. Probably more than most here.
There is a reason for the overlap between poverty, violent crime, and being black. Skeptic Tanks "proposal" would take care of all three things at once, at the expense of millions of human lives. Are you really comfortable advocating for mass executions?
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Old 22nd November 2021, 07:39 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There is a reason for the overlap between poverty, violent crime, and being black.
There are definitely reasons. We'd probably disagree on what some of them are, and I don't proclaim to have a full understanding of what they are.

Quote:
Skeptic Tanks "proposal" would take care of all three things at once, at the expense of millions of human lives. Are you really comfortable advocating for mass executions?
I don't think it'd be millions of lives, and also obviously the rates of such incidents would go down. Think of the Islamic societies i which they cut off a hand as a penalty for stealing. Not much theft there!

It also wouldn't take care (your words) of poverty and being black, because most poor people and black people don't commit such crimes.

He's basically just advocating for the death penalty (at least in this case). And if you're going to do the death penalty, you're probably going to choose it for those who have repeatedly committed violent crimes against others.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 07:48 PM   #109
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Certainly an enthusiasm for a culling spree based on the tentative conclusion of two evolutionary psychology papers would qualify as a 'violent tendency'
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Old 22nd November 2021, 07:53 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I don't think it'd be millions of lives, and also obviously the rates of such incidents would go down. Think of the Islamic societies i which they cut off a hand as a penalty for stealing. Not much theft there!
Oh yes, that's a shining example of civilisation in action! Truly something to aspire to.

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
It also wouldn't take care (your words) of poverty and being black, because most poor people and black people don't commit such crimes.
Like I said, in America there is a strong overlap between the three groups, and it would absolutely be millions of people.

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
He's basically just advocating for the death penalty (at least in this case). And if you're going to do the death penalty, you're probably going to choose it for those who have repeatedly committed violent crimes against others.
He's advocating for a massive expansion of the death penalty and the removal of all precautions and procedures that ensure that it is only ever applied appropriately*. And doing so for reasons that are literally mediaeval.

*Not that such a thing is possible, but for the sake of argument...
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Old 22nd November 2021, 07:56 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
He's advocating for a massive expansion of the death penalty and the removal of all precautions and procedures that ensure that it is only ever applied appropriately*. And doing so for reasons that are literally mediaeval.

*Not that such a thing is possible, but for the sake of argument...
* "Appropriately" meaning for anyone whose skin is not white.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 07:58 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
He's advocating for a massive expansion of the death penalty and the removal of all precautions and procedures that ensure that it is only ever applied appropriately*. And doing so for reasons that are literally mediaeval.

*Not that such a thing is possible, but for the sake of argument...
OK. I guess we just disagree on what he was saying.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 08:03 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
* "Appropriately" meaning for anyone whose skin is not white.
No, I'm pretty sure he'll be okay with killing white people too. It's just that such a policy would disproportionally affect poor black people because of the overlap.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 08:07 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I know a good way to avoid clogging up the prison system, etc.

How about if you are someone who commits violent offenses against other members of society, in the form of provable physical domestic abuse, unprovoked assaults on other people, rape, knife crime and gun crime of any kind - we just straight up execute you?
No because that's a relic of the uncivilized and mostly authoritarian past.

But given your affection for totalitarian regimes perhaps that's not surprising.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 08:34 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh so random violence is bad again because white people are the victims.
Which random violence, in which white people weren't the victims, wasn't bad before?
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Old 22nd November 2021, 08:44 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
Deliberately as in this was a planned attack? No.

IMO, there's 3 possible situations.

1. Planned attack. I'm not convinced of that yet, but it's possible.
2. Really drunk, unable to comprehend what was going on, and just drove into people when he couldn't avoid them anymore. Similar to a drunk person driving the wrong way on a highway.
3. Fleeing from something else, got stuck at the parade and took the risk of trying to drive through it and avoided people as best he could (or just didnt care) until he couldn't anymore.
Considering his previous statements on social media concerning the joys of smashing elderly whities to death, combined with the speed and path of the weapon involved and the fact that he tried to kill someone with a vehicle before, I'd say this was as deliberate as it comes. How this bag of filth managed to stay out on the street is a disgrace.
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Old 22nd November 2021, 09:32 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Wouldn't the willingness to "cull'" itself count as a "violent tendency"?
The expressed urge to murder millions of humans is okay as long as it is part of a wish that such an endeavor will one day be legal. I guess.

I seem to remember a Twilight Zone episode centered around a character very much like that, who finds himself empowered to make his wish a reality. I don't think it went well.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 03:07 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Skeptic Tank isn't proposing killing all the black people. They're proposing killing all the poor people. It just so happens that a lot of the poor people are also black.
No, they're proposing killing all the violent people. Are you going to tell me that most of the violent people are black?
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Old 23rd November 2021, 03:41 AM   #119
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Police rules it "not a terror attack".
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Old 23rd November 2021, 04:37 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Oh yes, that's a shining example of civilisation in action! Truly something to aspire to.
Which I think is one of the primary sticking points, even if we disregard morality. All places with such draconian measures were/are horrible places to live, except for the rich elite, if that.

The best ways to reduce crime have always been better social policies and a better prison system focused on rehabilitation.
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