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Old 23rd November 2021, 01:49 PM   #81
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
I think you missed the point. The media needs to invent this story about a secret society of thieves and Walgreens took advantage of this to drum up some PR to cover up for their planned store closings and distract from the fact they have stolen way more than these thieves.
I followed SuburbanTurkey's link on the subject, and I couldn't even figure out what it was about.

I don't know what Walgreen's did to "steal" from their employees, but I'll bet 10 to 1 that it was some sort of contractual dispute about exactly how to calculate pay and/or benefits, and that a judge ruled in the workers' favor.


I'm pretty sure that Walgreens didn't go to where their employees kept their stuff and take the employees' stuff away from them.

It's just not comparable.



Did Walgreens exaggerate the degree of theft and the influence of that theft on their decision to close some outlets? I have insufficient data to answer that question.....even after following a link about it.

To be fair, I also don't have sufficient data to even answer whether there was an increase in shoplifiting at San Francisco stores. That was basically the substance of the claim that I uncritically repeated earlier on, so I would welcome evidence that would confirm or refute the claim that theft is on the rise.

On the other hand, "ordinary" shoplifting is only peripheral to the topic anyway. It might indicate a general trend of people being willing to take stuff that doesn't belong to them. However, my opinion is that this wave of flash mob theft is fundamentally more threatening than ordinary shoplifiting.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 02:01 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I followed SuburbanTurkey's link on the subject, and I couldn't even figure out what it was about.

I don't know what Walgreen's did to "steal" from their employees, but I'll bet 10 to 1 that it was some sort of contractual dispute about exactly how to calculate pay and/or benefits, and that a judge ruled in the workers' favor.


I'm pretty sure that Walgreens didn't go to where their employees kept their stuff and take the employees' stuff away from them.

It's just not comparable.



Did Walgreens exaggerate the degree of theft and the influence of that theft on their decision to close some outlets? I have insufficient data to answer that question.....even after following a link about it.

To be fair, I also don't have sufficient data to even answer whether there was an increase in shoplifiting at San Francisco stores. That was basically the substance of the claim that I uncritically repeated earlier on, so I would welcome evidence that would confirm or refute the claim that theft is on the rise.

On the other hand, "ordinary" shoplifting is only peripheral to the topic anyway. It might indicate a general trend of people being willing to take stuff that doesn't belong to them. However, my opinion is that this wave of flash mob theft is fundamentally more threatening than ordinary shoplifiting.
Here's bloomberg:

Quote:
Mejia sued Walgreens in 2018 on behalf of other similarly situated employees under California’s Labor Code and Private Attorney Generals Act. He alleged Walgreens rounded down employees’ hours on their timecards, required them to undergo off-the-clock security checks before and after their shifts, and failed to pay premium wages for missed meal breaks.
https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-...lion-wage-deal

I suppose it's a "contract dispute" in the sense that workers probably expected their employers not to break the law and illegally withhold earned wages.


For all the pearl clutching reports about crime, it's strange that wage theft, which exceeds all other forms of theft combined, is very rarely reported on. Some guy at Walgreens filling a trashbag with merch is a viral video, but systematic, widespread illegal stealing from employees is just part of the background noise of life

Quote:
If these findings in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles are generalizable to the rest of the U.S. low-wage workforce of 30 million, wage theft is costing workers more than $50 billion a year.

It is useful to compare the cost of these wage and hour violations with crimes that are better recognized and greatly more feared, though they are much smaller in their overall dollar impact. All of the robberies, burglaries, larcenies, and motor vehicle thefts in the nation cost their victims less than $14 billion in 2012, according to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports.2 That is well over one-third of the estimated cost of wage theft nationwide.
https://www.epi.org/publication/epid...kers-hundreds/
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Old 23rd November 2021, 02:05 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Here's bloomberg:



https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-...lion-wage-deal

I suppose it's a "contract dispute" in the sense that workers probably expected their employers not to break the law and illegally withhold earned wages.


For all the pearl clutching reports about crime, it's strange that wage theft, which exceeds all other forms of theft combined, is very rarely reported on. Some guy at Walgreens filling a trashbag with merch is a viral video, but systematic, widespread illegal stealing from employees is just part of the background noise of life


https://www.epi.org/publication/epid...kers-hundreds/
You have to remember there is the good kinds of stealing like wage theft/police seizures that are totally not crimes even if not exactly legal. They take advantage of the poor and disenfranchized so of course they are socially sanctioned, while this kind of thing is a huge problem and shows the death of our culture. Luxury good stores are way more important than some worthless scum who works at walgreens for christs sake.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 02:36 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
For all the pearl clutching reports about crime, it's strange that wage theft, which exceeds all other forms of theft combined, is very rarely reported on. Some guy at Walgreens filling a trashbag with merch is a viral video, but systematic, widespread illegal stealing from employees is just part of the background noise of life

SQUIRREL!


Anyway, if anyone has any data on actual shoplifing rates in San Francisco and whether or not they are increasing, including whether or not this influenced Walgreens or other stores to close bay area outlets, let me know.


Yes, I think taking stuff without paying for it is fundamentally different from what you have described, and also that if people got a complete description of the details from the workers' lawsuit or complaint, that most people would say that your description was exaggerated.

I'm glad we have regulators and courts to settle the kinds of disputes Walgreens engaged in, and order restitution where appropriate, and I'm glad we have courts to punish people caught shoplifiting. And when it comes to people who organize criminal gangs to invade stores and steal large quantities of stuff, I really hope those people end up in front of those courts, and spend a long time away from normal society.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 02:46 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
SQUIRREL!


Anyway, if anyone has any data on actual shoplifing rates in San Francisco and whether or not they are increasing, including whether or not this influenced Walgreens or other stores to close bay area outlets, let me know.


Yes, I think taking stuff without paying for it is fundamentally different from what you have described, and also that if people got a complete description of the details from the workers' lawsuit or complaint, that most people would say that your description was exaggerated.

I'm glad we have regulators and courts to settle the kinds of disputes Walgreens engaged in, and order restitution where appropriate, and I'm glad we have courts to punish people caught shoplifiting. And when it comes to people who organize criminal gangs to invade stores and steal large quantities of stuff, I really hope those people end up in front of those courts, and spend a long time away from normal society.
How the media covers petty theft is very much on topic.

Why is the shrinkage rate of a massive retail chain anyone else's problem? Why is this something we should care about?

Surely it's not some right wing canard meant to drum up fear to tamp down on anti-police sentiment that has been brewing these last few years, surely not.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 03:09 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
How the media covers petty theft is very much on topic.
80 people converging on Nordstrom's isn't petty theft.

To be fair, the Walgreens aspect, is indeed petty theft, and I admit to uncritically passing on a claim about it, so I'll invite people to provide data about that claim. I'll even look for some myself.


Quote:
Why is the shrinkage rate of a massive retail chain anyone else's problem? Why is this something we should care about?
Where's that facepalm picture when you need it?

I think there's probably a pearls and swine issue here, but.......

The standard answer is that that shrinkage rate gets passed on to you and me, and that standard answer is true. However, it is far, far, worse than that. The other aspect of the answer is that in a society that tolerates that shrinkage rate, the shrinkage rate isn't confined to the massive retail chains. It also affects Ma and Pa Chang, the immigrants who opened up a liquor store. The massive retail chains have the means to cut their losses through specialized theft fighting tools, and the size to absorb losses. The individuals trying to make a living have no such resources, and it drives them out of business.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 03:20 PM   #87
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Quote:
Where's that facepalm picture when you need it?
Hope this helps..
Attached Images
File Type: jpg facepalm.jpg (77.0 KB, 1 views)
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Old 23rd November 2021, 03:30 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
80 people converging on Nordstrom's isn't petty theft.

To be fair, the Walgreens aspect, is indeed petty theft, and I admit to uncritically passing on a claim about it, so I'll invite people to provide data about that claim. I'll even look for some myself.

Finding data on the internet on a high interest subject like this is really hard. Everyone has an agenda. The articles could be cited in a textbook on lying with statistics.


Well, it's my own fault for bringing up the Walgreens article. I didn't know it was such a hot button issue, and subject to much dispute.
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Old 24th November 2021, 10:54 AM   #89
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It looks like felony charges for 9 suspects in the Union Square robbery.

Some local pundits aren't too happy with the resistance to the crimes.
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:14 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post

I think there's probably a pearls and swine issue here, but.......

The standard answer is that that shrinkage rate gets passed on to you and me, and that standard answer is true.
It may be passed on to you, but I don't shop at Nordstrom's. Minor shrinkage at the retail level doesn't raise production prices across the board.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
However, it is far, far, worse than that. The other aspect of the answer is that in a society that tolerates that shrinkage rate, the shrinkage rate isn't confined to the massive retail chains. It also affects Ma and Pa Chang, the immigrants who opened up a liquor store. The massive retail chains have the means to cut their losses through specialized theft fighting tools, and the size to absorb losses. The individuals trying to make a living have no such resources, and it drives them out of business.
If the news reports are to be believed, it's not "Ma and Pa" stores who are being hit by these massive thefts. "Ma and Pa" stores are being driven out of business, but it's not due to shrinkage care of flash-mob theft but rather due to competition by massive retail chains who can leverage their buying power to drive down prices across the market. It is a pre-existing problem with a well-studied and understood phenomenon underlying it; it has nothing to do with flash-mob theft. Can you provide, say, three examples of "Ma and Pa Chang" stores that were forced to close due to flash-mob theft?
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:27 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
How the media covers petty theft is very much on topic.
I'm actually pretty sympathetic to this argument. Systematic underpaying of employees is a big deal, and deserves attention. You're absolutely right about that. But...

Quote:
Why is the shrinkage rate of a massive retail chain anyone else's problem? Why is this something we should care about?
This is just stupid. The jobs of ordinary employees are strongly affected by shrinkage rates. The prices that ordinary consumers have to pay for goods are strongly affected by shrinkage rates. Whether or not stores even exist is strongly affected by shrinkage rates. And widespread criminality is corrosive to low income communities.

Crime matters. That isn't some right-wing conspiracy or paranoia.
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:31 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post



This is just stupid. The jobs of ordinary employees are strongly affected by shrinkage rates. The prices that ordinary consumers have to pay for goods are strongly affected by shrinkage rates. Whether or not stores even exist is strongly affected by shrinkage rates. And widespread criminality is corrosive to low income communities.

Crime matters. That isn't some right-wing conspiracy or paranoia.
The conspiracy theory is downstream when right wing pundits try to pin this rash of robberies on defunding the police (hasn't happened almost anywhere) or progressive prosecutors or some other hobby horse.

It's not a new phenomena, but it does pose a risk to retail stores if the trend becomes more popular. Mass mob robberies that are organized in a decentralized fashion are a hard problem to fix.
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:37 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It may be passed on to you, but I don't shop at Nordstrom's. Minor shrinkage at the retail level doesn't raise production prices across the board.



If the news reports are to be believed, it's not "Ma and Pa" stores who are being hit by these massive thefts. "Ma and Pa" stores are being driven out of business, but it's not due to shrinkage care of flash-mob theft but rather due to competition by massive retail chains who can leverage their buying power to drive down prices across the market. It is a pre-existing problem with a well-studied and understood phenomenon; it has nothing to do with flash-mob theft. Can you provide, say, three examples of "Ma and Pa Chang" stores that were forced to close due to flash-mob theft?
Ummmm....yeah. Well, I don't have three specific names of stores that cited flash mob theft in why they closed down, so I guess retail shrinkage probably isn't a problem.

Or something.
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:37 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The conspiracy theory is downstream when right wing pundits try to pin this rash of robberies on defunding the police (hasn't happened almost anywhere) or progressive prosecutors or some other hobby horse.

It's not a new phenomena, but it does pose a risk to retail stores if the trend becomes more popular. Mass mob robberies that are organized in a decentralized fashion are a hard problem to fix.
So you decided to be proactive and bring that up just in case anyone else did? Very forward thinking of you.

(To be fair, mgidm86 did link it to lowering penalties for certain crimes, which is sort of like what you said above.)
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:39 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Ummmm....yeah. Well, I don't have three specific names of stores that cited flash mob theft in why they closed down, so I guess it probably isn't a problem.

Or something.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to pressure you into providing evidence for a claim.
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:40 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
So you decided to be proactive and bring that up just in case anyone else did? Very forward thinking of you.

(To be fair, mgidm86 did link it to lowering penalties for certain crimes, which is sort of like what you said above.)
You need only click around this very thread, the comment section of the article you linked, or any other dip-**** opinion posted on right wing rags to find that this is the common response to this incident. Don't play dumb, it doesn't suit you.
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:48 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You need only click around this very thread, the comment section of the article you linked, or any other dip-**** opinion posted on right wing rags to find that this is the common response to this incident. Don't play dumb, it doesn't suit you.
All right, fine. I'll tie down the knees and read all of your answer.

You did acknowledge that it was a real problem, so I can't begrudge that you also took time to swat at some of the people suggesting things that might just be right wing talking points.
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:52 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's curious what crimes and thefts get coverage.

https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonnyc/s...72640679403521

I suppose Walgreens systematically stealing from their employees isn't as easy to capture for a viral video.
Well, yeah. Humans are visual creatures. People racing out to line of getaway cars with arms full of luxury goods will capture way, way more attention than reading about a mega-corporation systematically nickel and diming employees. While reality has a well-known liberal bias, human beings have their own blinders.
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Old 24th November 2021, 01:20 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Well, yeah. Humans are visual creatures. People racing out to line of getaway cars with arms full of luxury goods will capture way, way more attention than reading about a mega-corporation systematically nickel and diming employees. While reality has a well-known liberal bias, human beings have their own blinders.
That's true, a video of upper management of these companies being perp walked out of their fancy offices for committing wide scale wage theft would go a long way to helping create an understandable visual for the public. Unfortunately white collar crime is treated with kid gloves.
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Old 24th November 2021, 01:32 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That's true, a video of upper management of these companies being perp walked out of their fancy offices for committing wide scale wage theft would go a long way to helping create an understandable visual for the public. Unfortunately white collar crime is treated with kid gloves.
Wage theft would have to be a criminal matter first.
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Old 24th November 2021, 02:34 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That's true, a video of upper management of these companies being perp walked out of their fancy offices for committing wide scale wage theft would go a long way to helping create an understandable visual for the public. Unfortunately white collar crime is treated with kid gloves.
There was no crime committed by Walgreens management. No perp walks required. No jail.

There were civil infractions that were based on interpretation of labor laws, for which they paid compensation to affected employees....and their lawyers.

A little bit more about this just barely on topic thing with "wide scale wage theft"


There were a few major issues. (This came from a quick perusal of one article describing the lawsuit.)

First, due to retail theft being a problem, some employees were required to undergo security checks before and after work. Those security checks could take several minutes, and employees were not paid for those minutes.

Second, when employees worked a certain amount of time, their time on the payroll system was rounded down to the nearest fraction of a payable hour. I don't know exactly what that fraction was. I know it wasn't a whole hour. I would be amazed if it were larger than a tenth of an hour, because that's a very common pay system for hourly employees. So, if a worker worked 6.24 hours, he was paid for 6.2 hours. If a worker was paid 6.27 hours, he was paid for 6.2 hours.

Third, suppose the store was very busy and the worker worked through their lunch break, which meant they ended up working 8 1/2 hours. That should have meant 8 hours straight pay plus 1/2 hour overtime. They paid the other half hour as straight time. And, the article description was very brief on that. I'm surprised that there could be such an error in the payroll system, which makes me suspect it was a less significant error, or harder to program, than I just described. I know that it involved paying straight time for missed breaks, instead of overtime. Basically, it was a software bug, although probably in the requirements description rather than the programming. Probably.

And I'm not complaining. The employees were in the right, and they won, deservedly, but this is in no way comparable to getting a bunch of people together to loot a Nordstrom or Tiffany's.
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Old 24th November 2021, 03:11 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
There was no crime committed by Walgreens management. No perp walks required. No jail.

There were civil infractions that were based on interpretation of labor laws, for which they paid compensation to affected employees....and their lawyers.

A little bit more about this just barely on topic thing with "wide scale wage theft"


There were a few major issues. (This came from a quick perusal of one article describing the lawsuit.)

First, due to retail theft being a problem, some employees were required to undergo security checks before and after work. Those security checks could take several minutes, and employees were not paid for those minutes.

Second, when employees worked a certain amount of time, their time on the payroll system was rounded down to the nearest fraction of a payable hour. I don't know exactly what that fraction was. I know it wasn't a whole hour. I would be amazed if it were larger than a tenth of an hour, because that's a very common pay system for hourly employees. So, if a worker worked 6.24 hours, he was paid for 6.2 hours. If a worker was paid 6.27 hours, he was paid for 6.2 hours.

Third, suppose the store was very busy and the worker worked through their lunch break, which meant they ended up working 8 1/2 hours. That should have meant 8 hours straight pay plus 1/2 hour overtime. They paid the other half hour as straight time. And, the article description was very brief on that. I'm surprised that there could be such an error in the payroll system, which makes me suspect it was a less significant error, or harder to program, than I just described. I know that it involved paying straight time for missed breaks, instead of overtime. Basically, it was a software bug, although probably in the requirements description rather than the programming. Probably.

And I'm not complaining. The employees were in the right, and they won, deservedly, but this is in no way comparable to getting a bunch of people together to loot a Nordstrom or Tiffany's.
Sure, stealing from employees is treated as a paperwork problem. That's kind of my point. Swiping a $20 bottle of perfume is a crime, but systematically ripping off millions of dollars of earned wages is just an infraction. It's pretty clear who the law protects and who it doesn't. Arresting management for ripping off workers would radically change practices in the workplace, but we can't have that, can we?
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Old 24th November 2021, 05:25 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I checked out google news today. There have been some copy-cat incidents.

Twenty people at an LA Nordstrom. A high end consignment store in Palo Alto. Miscellaneous others.


It's easy to shrug and say no big deal, and if it remains confined to a small group of incidents, that's right. If it becomes a trend, though, it puts retail out of business. Drive more business to Amazon.

In reading about this incident, I read about shoplifting as a particular problem in San Francisco. Walgreens closed five outlets in the city, specifically citing shoplifting as the cause. That hurts everyone. It's a big deal.
I don't think it's no big deal. It is. People have to steal a microwave and a TV.
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Old 24th November 2021, 07:48 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
I don't think it's no big deal. It is. People have to steal a microwave and a TV.
Nobody's stealing a microwave or TV from Nordstrom's. They're stealing expensive clothes, and fencing them. (Well, they might keep them and wear them themselves, but it's more likely they are being fenced.)
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Old 24th November 2021, 07:55 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure, stealing from employees is treated as a paperwork problem. That's kind of my point. Swiping a $20 bottle of perfume is a crime, but systematically ripping off millions of dollars of earned wages is just an infraction. It's pretty clear who the law protects and who it doesn't. Arresting management for ripping off workers would radically change practices in the workplace, but we can't have that, can we?
A fictitious legal entity based on a piece of paper in an office in Deleware is responsible for this!
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Old 24th November 2021, 08:07 PM   #106
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Governor Gavin Newsom didn't hold back on criticizing the thieves and calling for their prosecution.


https://www.sfgate.com/california-po...e-16649502.php


Newsom isn't exactly part of the right wing hate machine.
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Old 25th November 2021, 05:22 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Governor Gavin Newsom didn't hold back on criticizing the thieves and calling for their prosecution.


https://www.sfgate.com/california-po...e-16649502.php


Newsom isn't exactly part of the right wing hate machine.
Sure, he isn't citing idiotic memes like how defunding the police or any other right wing boogiemen.

Smacks of "old man yells at cloud" though. No reasonable person, likely including the thieves, thinks they won't get punished if they get identified and caught. The problem remains that catching these people in the moment remains difficult. Finding out where and how these are being organized remains the root of tackling this semi-organized crime spree. It's possible there are leaders, but it's also possible it's a decentralized, opportunistic, and loosely organized phenomena.

I notice the Governor is very light on details. Vague statements of giving support. I guess the political nature of this required a response, but nothing being said here gives much reason to believe Newsom or anyone else has a specific solution.

ETA: I would note that the solution to this problem is likely not what police bootlickers are constantly demanding, a bunch of thuggish street cops harassing poor and black people. I don't even think the current police really need anything additional to solve this problem. Diligent detective work could shut this down, not more cops on the street.
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Old 25th November 2021, 12:48 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure, he isn't citing idiotic memes like how defunding the police or any other right wing boogiemen.
Similar situation in the UK, where this national legislator says the reason petty crime has increased in the country is because Dr. Who is a woman now.
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Old 25th November 2021, 01:52 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why would anyone steal an iceberg?
Frederic Tudor, the 'Ice King' made millions from shipping ice around the world.
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Old 25th November 2021, 03:37 PM   #110
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High risk, low reward (relatively speaking).

I think the first step should be figuring out why around 80 people are desperate enough to consider this worth their time.
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Old 25th November 2021, 09:12 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
High risk, low reward (relatively speaking).

I think the first step should be figuring out why around 80 people are desperate enough to consider this worth their time.
I don't think they see it that way. I think they see it as low risk, medium reward.

I hope the powers that be in California convince the next set of would be looters that the first group severely underestimated the risk.
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Old 27th November 2021, 10:10 AM   #112
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Meanwhile, in Minnesota:

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/...-black-friday/



Let me emphasize something. This ought to be impossible. It ought to be impossible to get 20-30 people together for an organized theft, because if there are that many people involved in a criminal conspiracy, somebody ought to snitch and foil the plot. That's what ought to be the case. The fact that it is not the case is very, very, disturbing to me.
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Old 27th November 2021, 10:17 AM   #113
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What kind of surprised me was how thin and young the perps appeared to be. After all, this is America -- you just don't normally see that many thin people all at once.
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Old 27th November 2021, 10:18 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Meanwhile, in Minnesota:

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/...-black-friday/



Let me emphasize something. This ought to be impossible. It ought to be impossible to get 20-30 people together for an organized theft, because if there are that many people involved in a criminal conspiracy, somebody ought to snitch and foil the plot. That's what ought to be the case. The fact that it is not the case is very, very, disturbing to me.
How far in advance is it organized?

I mean, if the whole group is in on the planning for weeks, then you've got a point. But if it is more that just two or three people plan the event for a time and then put out a call like "Hey everyone, lets crash Nordstrom's in a half hour", then your point holds up less well.

So:

1: Preplanned organized raid

or,

2: Semi-spontaneous robbery party?
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Old 27th November 2021, 11:00 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Let me emphasize something. This ought to be impossible. It ought to be impossible to get 20-30 people together for an organized theft, because if there are that many people involved in a criminal conspiracy, somebody ought to snitch and foil the plot. That's what ought to be the case. The fact that it is not the case is very, very, disturbing to me.
I'm not nearly as surprised. It seems where we differ is in our assessments on how many people think this kind of activity is OK and warranted. If you can get 20-30 people who think that way (with none that don't) the operation will be successful. Or at least it will be successful from the point of avoiding snitches.

Another possibility is that there may be a snitch or two within the group that is afraid to come forward because of the whole saying about stitches. But I really think our opinions are probably very different on how hard it would be to find 20-30 people who think this sort of thing is morally OK. With the idea that Nordstroms's is owned by rich, greedy white people that are exploiting the poor, etc. used as a justification/rationalization.

Remember, a lot of people really did think we should defund the police, and everything that goes along with it.
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Old 27th November 2021, 11:02 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Meanwhile, in Minnesota:

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2021/...-black-friday/



Let me emphasize something. This ought to be impossible. It ought to be impossible to get 20-30 people together for an organized theft, because if there are that many people involved in a criminal conspiracy, somebody ought to snitch and foil the plot. That's what ought to be the case. The fact that it is not the case is very, very, disturbing to me.
I doubt there's ever a "long term plan" in this sort of robbery. More likely just a short social media post saying something like, "Today @5 Best Buy on Tenth street.", and little more is required. You only need one or two to make a plan like that.
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Old 27th November 2021, 12:11 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I doubt there's ever a "long term plan" in this sort of robbery. More likely just a short social media post saying something like, "Today @5 Best Buy on Tenth street.", and little more is required. You only need one or two to make a plan like that.
I dunno, man. In the OP there were 80 people in 25 cars, in and out in a minute. That is a logistical feat, without planning and coordination.

You ever try to get a carload of people to leave on time? Multiply that by 25. Getting that many parked and everyone running in at the same instant, and getting out in 60 seconds without incident (even a self-made traffic jam) is pretty damned organized.
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Old 27th November 2021, 12:27 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Nobody's stealing a microwave or TV from Nordstrom's. They're stealing expensive clothes, and fencing them. (Well, they might keep them and wear them themselves, but it's more likely they are being fenced.)
Many of the invaders are likely going straight to the footwear department, where sneakers are located. https://www.nordstrom.com/browse/men...akers-athletic

and speaking of "flash Mobs" -- this is today's story from Baltimore:
https://www.wbaltv.com/article/raven...game/38363097#

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Old 27th November 2021, 12:50 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I dunno, man. In the OP there were 80 people in 25 cars, in and out in a minute. That is a logistical feat, without planning and coordination.
Damn, I remember the days when you couldn't find 25 empty parking spaces at a mall to save your life. Times have changed! Truly, the button that stops Mall Bitches has been pressed.
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Old 27th November 2021, 02:14 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I dunno, man. In the OP there were 80 people in 25 cars, in and out in a minute. That is a logistical feat, without planning and coordination.
I don't think so, necessarily. For one thing, it isn't really known that all of these cars arrived at the same time for instance; and it's not known how many cars arrived late, and their occupants decided not to participate because the window of opportunity was gone or they saw police beginning to respond.

I'll allow the possibility that the social media message could be something like "whoever wants in, meet up in the parking lot on 85th" and at go-time they all head to the target store at once. That might even be safer for the flash-thieves because there's no chance of anyone who sees the post alerting the targeted store ahead of time. But that's really the upper limit of any attempt at organization or coordination that's actually required to pull something like this off.
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