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Old 16th April 2018, 06:08 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It doesn't matter if the staff had no good reason to ask them to leave, once they didn't, that becomes a good reason for the call and the for the arrest.
And even if asking them to leave was a crime. See the cops have to enforce the stores illegal orders. And of course as is always the case the cops are not legally responsible for their actions.
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:08 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So, the cops clearly had an option not to arrest the men!!!!!!
Just passing through here... but thought I might respond to this. I'm not a LEO of any flavor, but I have neighbors who are.. Over beers in the backyard over the past few years both have lamented the sharp push back on their ability to use personal judgement in the field while on an official call. Its down to record keeping and metrics they are measured on for performance reviews.

Both of them, one a State Trooper, one a County deputy, describe an auditable process that starts when they are sent to respond to a complaint (often they start the process themselves by performing the required log entry when they pull someone for speeding - why they don't get out of their car immediately). Once that process is started, they are under pressure to produce and end result that is a summons, an arrest, etc... They've been told that judgement to let someone off the hook at that point is outside of their job scope and in the hands of a judge. They've been trained to always write a ticket if they've logged a traffic stop for speeding, always arrest a trespasser identified by a property owner. Circumstances don't much matter - leave the decision on circumstances to the judicial process.

This is just podunk rural NC. I assume large city PDs do the same - and for good reason. If you take away the responding officer's judgement, you also eliminate that officer's bias in deciding who to let go and who to arrest.

Given that, I'm thinking that it would not have mattered what race/creed/color/nationality/sex, etc... was at Starbucks against Starbucks' wishes. An arrest was going to happen the moment the 911 call was taken and the subjects encountered at Starbucks by the LEOs - the process was initiated and had to play out. The cops did their job as they've been trained.

The problem, as I see it, is the local Starbucks' inconsistent enforcement of its bathroom policy (and I bet that'll be the basis of a lawsuit here). Either you apply it strictly to everyone, or you don't apply it at all. Anywhere in between, when you leave it up to individual judgement, you encourage bias. Kind of the same reason my LEO neighbors are told not to use their judgement once they've initiated a stop.
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:22 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
No, while I agree it was probably racist, it's not illegal to be racist. They weren't refusing to serve them because they were black, that would be illegal. Asking them to leave because they weren't paying customers is an acceptable thing to do, even if it was done to them and not others because they were black. Arbitrarily deciding whether to enforce a policy or not, is not a human right violation.

It's like if a bar has a rule of No Shirt, No Service. They can arbitrarily allow women in without a shirt, but reject men who don't wear one because they are refusing the service for the lack of a shirt, not for being a male. If a rejected man put on a shirt, then he'd be able to get the service.
So you just need to have a no customers rule and only enforce it against blacks. Genius way to get around the civil rights laws about refusing service to blacks.
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:23 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
One may also wonder why Rosa Parks didn't simply stand when asked to by the bus driver. Difference here is magnitude, but not kind.
Because she was a troublemaker trying to be arrested of course. I am sure Starbucks will love this comparison as well.
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:27 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
The race of these guys may well have been a factor. But, the police can't really know that and have to do their jobs. That's all Im arguing here.
Except that chilling in starbucks is incredibly common and unless maybe it was very busy it wouldn't be an issue. But it was in this case. The cops would know that. But I guess they still have to enforce the stores "Blacks must do X" rules no matter if they are legal or not in your view.
Quote:
If it's the case that some racist starbucks employee just singled these guys out due to their race, and there wasn't something else at play, I wholeheartedly agree they should be subject to all manner of protests.
And of course the police will arrest them all too. Can't have the darkies in proper white people hang outs like starbucks.
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:50 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
"You're only a $45,000 a year employee," Ross stated in the video.
I think I need a bit of help as to what this is supposed to mean, and why it is significant.
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:56 AM   #167
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Boy, we really are scraping the bottom of the barrel in search for those social controversies, aren't we?
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:58 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Boy, we really are scraping the bottom of the barrel in search for those social controversies, aren't we?
Exactly blacks should know they are not welcome in many white institutions and just stay quiet about it and accept that starbucks, crackerbarrel and Denny's are not for them.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:06 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
One may also wonder why Rosa Parks didn't simply stand when asked to by the bus driver. Difference here is magnitude, but not kind.
Presumably Parks had actually paid her bus fare.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:16 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Presumably Parks had actually paid her bus fare.
And not ordering anything and waiting for a friend is normal in that situation. Why weren't all the other people there not buying things arrested for it?
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:20 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Boy, we really are scraping the bottom of the barrel in search for those social controversies, aren't we?
It's the paradox of social progress.

As we improve a problem individual cases of that problem occurring up get more attention, leading to the belief that the overall problem isn't being fixed.

That's why the narrative so many people just have to write is that this one incident is proof of... something greater than what even in the most evil version of the story is nothing more than one dickcheese barista.

As fat would have it David Wong (who has just been on fire for me as to how he conceptualizes the modern outrage culture in the last few years) mentioned in this in an article he wrote could days back.

13 Myths About Society Too Many People Believe
http://www.cracked.com/blog/13-myths...eople-believe/

Quote:
Myth: Racism Is On The Rise In America

That "Mistaking the spectacular for the common" mechanism that makes Americans in quiet towns fear being gunned down by a mass shooter or beheaded by MS-13 is at play here, too. And everywhere, really.

Racists want you to believe they're taking over, but all that's growing is a fringe of highly visible, spectacular racism. The number of hate groups in the USA has gone up about 7% since 2015, and that's right in line with the FBI's data showing hate crimes rose by about 5% last year, though reporting is spotty. I guess you could say that a 5-7% increase in extremism isn't exactly an explosion, but I don't want to downplay it, and it really does feel like white nationalist YouTube channels have exploded by 5,000%. Nice algorithm you've got there, guys. I love seeing these in my recommendations:

(Screen shots of various racist Youtube channels)

But overall, racist attitudes continue their sharp decline, even in the Trump era. You're not seeing a turning of the tide in racism. You're seeing increasing polarization, the losing side getting louder and crazier. This includes intentionally staging appearances they know will draw protests so that they can play victim. The fact that the rest of us find them repulsive is what generates the noise.
But for the "Cause People" that's not acceptable. An instance of something can't be the loud dying grasp of a fading problem, notable specifically because it's now less common enough to be newsworthy. Not it, must be, has to be a clear sign that the problem is getting worse and all the progress has been for naught.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:54 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly blacks should know they are not welcome in many white institutions and just stay quiet about it and accept that starbucks, crackerbarrel and Denny's are not for them.
Racist!!
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:55 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Remove doesn't equal arrest.
OK, but a similar thing happened to my white friend in New Orleans when he was in law school in Tulane. He asked the for an explanation as to why he and his friend (also white) were being asked to leave and ended up spending a night in jail. No charges. His friend was not arrested, but had to spend the night on the street. The friend was visiting from out of town and the cop wouldn't allow my friend to give him the keys to the apartment.

That said, while in his holding cell, he talked to a black guy who the officer had followed like ten miles before pulling him over for DUI.

Another incident: A group of teenagers, including my stepsons, had gathered at the local IGA parking lot. This was normal for a Friday night. There were rumors of a fight, so the cops told them to disperse. A couple hours later, my stepsons and their friend went back to the IGA and bought sodas. As they got back into their car, another friend pulled in (who had not been there earlier) and asked where everyone was hanging out. the police immediately pulled in and arrested all six of the kids for trespass (handcuffs and the whole bit) and they got to spend the night in jail. All of the kids were white (my stepsons are half Mexican, but look white) except for one Asian kid. And one of them was the son of a police dispatcher.

So...are police racist? Some of them. Is this an incident where police were racist? Maybe, maybe not. White people go to jail in similar circumstances sometimes as well. Like I said, my wife works security. Sometimes people of either race are arrested, and sometimes they are given notices to appear. It's hard to say sometimes why one option is selected over the other.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:57 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's the paradox of social progress.

As we improve a problem individual cases of that problem occurring up get more attention, leading to the belief that the overall problem isn't being fixed.
It isn't though. Schools are in many ways more segregated than they were in the 60's for example. We just are more subtle about it so it gets a pass.

But that involves to much numbers and stats and doesn't say what you want so it is easy to dismiss.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:13 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And not ordering anything and waiting for a friend is normal in that situation. Why weren't all the other people there not buying things arrested for it?
Wrong question.
They weren't arrested because they did not refuse to leave after being asked to do so.

The correct question is why they weren't asked to leave. And that's on Starbucks, not the police.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:22 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Wrong question.
They weren't arrested because they did not refuse to leave after being asked to do so.

The correct question is why they weren't asked to leave. And that's on Starbucks, not the police.
But the Philadelphia chief of police says the employees did ask them to leave.

Quote:
The employees allegedly told the two men they were not permitted to use the restroom since they weren't paying customers.

"And so they asked the two males to leave and they refused to leave and the police were called," Ross said in the video posted on the department's Facebook page.

The two men were then allegedly told that the police would be called and allegedly responded, "Go ahead and call the police. We don't care," according to Ross's retelling of the police officers' account.
http://abc13.com/handcuffing-of-2-bl...y-ceo/3344516/

Interestingly, this detail seems to be left out of the reporting of most of the major networks.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:28 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And even if asking them to leave was a crime. See the cops have to enforce the stores illegal orders. And of course as is always the case the cops are not legally responsible for their actions.
Asking someone who is not using the service of the shop to leave is not illegal regardless of the reason for the asking. It's illegal not to serve someone because of a protected class, it's not illegal to ask a person refusing to use the shop's service to leave, even if they are arbitrarily selected to be asked to leave because of a protected class.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:29 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So you just need to have a no customers rule and only enforce it against blacks. Genius way to get around the civil rights laws about refusing service to blacks.
No, because that is refusing service. Asking a person who is refusing to be served to leave is rather different to refusing to serve someone.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:31 AM   #179
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Remember a couple of years back when Freddie Gray was arrested in Baltimore and later found dead in the back of a police van?

Freddie Gray was an African American man and Baltimore has had problems a notoriously racially motivated police force in the past.

So immediately "the narrative" became clear and within that "narrative" was the only place the discussion could occur. Racist white police officers had murdered Freddie Gray.

And then... the released the pictures of the 6 arresting officers. 2 black guys, a black woman, and 3 white guys.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:32 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Asking someone who is not using the service of the shop to leave is not illegal regardless of the reason for the asking. It's illegal not to serve someone because of a protected class, it's not illegal to ask a person refusing to use the shop's service to leave, even if they are arbitrarily selected to be asked to leave because of a protected class.
So you are against the piggy park ruling by the supreme court. After all because of their religious convictions they would serve blacks food, just not seat them and as such they were protected by their religion from their violations of the civil rights act because the civil rights act doesn't apply to seating?

That is certainly a novel argument. Doesn't seem to hold any legal weight but still.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:34 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Remember a couple of years back when Freddie Gray was arrested in Baltimore and later found dead in the back of a police van?

Freddie Gray was an African American man and Baltimore has had problems a notoriously racially motivated police force in the past.

So immediately "the narrative" became clear and within that "narrative" was the only place the discussion could occur. Racist white police officers had murdered Freddie Gray.

And then... the released the pictures of the 6 arresting officers. 2 black guys, a black woman, and 3 white guys.
So what? Clearly that totally made their killing of him ok because when black officers beat a black man it is not police brutality? Do you really not see how damn racist sheriff Clarke is?
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:35 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
No, because that is refusing service. Asking a person who is refusing to be served to leave is rather different to refusing to serve someone.
You hold that a "Blacks, get your coffee and GTFO" is a legal policy for starbucks?
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:36 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
But the Philadelphia chief of police says the employees did ask them to leave.
He meant the other people who were there and apparently hasn't bought anything either.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:42 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You hold that a "Blacks, get your coffee and GTFO" is a legal policy for starbucks?
Having a policy that tables are for customers only is a legal policy. Enforcing it arbitrarily is also legal. There is also no evidence on the table that all Blacks who have sat in this store without ordering have been asked to leave, we just have a case of two of them. Your argument really is a strawman, if a customer is buying coffee, then sitting at a table is part of that service, removing a paying customer is again denial of service. If you aren't a customer, then the business is not required to provide you services.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:43 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
One has to wonder why they didn't just buy a cup of coffee when it was strongly hinted that that would resove the immediate issue?
Starbucks.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:47 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Having a policy that tables are for customers only is a legal policy. Enforcing it arbitrarily is also legal.
Of course arbitrary enforcement opens you up to claims of discrimination and so makes you have to not simply cite policy as your justification but you need to justify why you chose to enforce the policy(that doesn't exist) for them and not for others.

You don't get to back door in racial profiling that easily.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:49 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Reeco View Post
Starbucks.
Didn't have to drink it!
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:49 AM   #188
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This story makes as much sense as this scenario...
Starbucks white customer: "I'd like a large coffee, black".
Starbucks black employee: "You racist! Get out or I'm calling the cops."
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:52 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course arbitrary enforcement opens you up to claims of discrimination and so makes you have to not simply cite policy as your justification but you need to justify why you chose to enforce the policy(that doesn't exist) for them and not for others.

You don't get to back door in racial profiling that easily.
You're still missing the point, the Law says that you can't deny service. Asking someone who is refusing service to leave is not denying them service, regardless of the reason you ask them to leave. The Law doesn't say you can't discriminate on what non-customers you allow on your premises, it says you can't discriminate against the customers you have.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:57 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...one other thing to note was they weren't just escorted off the property, they were detained from 5PM that afternoon until 2AM the next morning. It was at 2AM that, according to the police, that "officers processing paperwork learned that Starbucks was no longer interested in prosecuting. The two men were then released from custody."

https://whyy.org/articles/philly-pol...doing-nothing/

If Starbucks did want to prosecute, how long would they have kept the two men in jail?
Until they posted bail or had an arraignment hearing, most likely.
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:09 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
No, you can also take a wild guess based on little evidence and get all outraged about it.
Or, if it involves a POC being inconvenienced, always assume it's racially motivated and go from there.
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:13 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
This is how I see it as well. Lots of people loiter at places like Starbucks. I doubt that these guys would have been asked to leave if they were white.

Maybe these guys were wrong for refusing to leave, but perhaps they were defiant because of a racist attitude of the barista. I'm sure this wasn't their first time getting treated as less than.
Or maybe they could've told the barista they were waiting for their friend to arrive and then they would order.
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:14 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You're still missing the point, the Law says that you can't deny service. Asking someone who is refusing service to leave is not denying them service, regardless of the reason you ask them to leave. The Law doesn't say you can't discriminate on what non-customers you allow on your premises, it says you can't discriminate against the customers you have.
I think you are not getting that ponderingturtle has a racist hammer and he's bludgeoning a white privilege nail with it. He can't hear you over the clang, clang, clang of that nail being hit.

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Old 16th April 2018, 09:18 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You're still missing the point, the Law says that you can't deny service. Asking someone who is refusing service to leave is not denying them service, regardless of the reason you ask them to leave. The Law doesn't say you can't discriminate on what non-customers you allow on your premises, it says you can't discriminate against the customers you have.
Maybe it is a US thing, or maybe even a more local thing, but part of the outrage here is down to the fact that Starbucks almost never asks people to leave. I've met people in Starbucks dozens of times and rarely buy anything. I feel no obligation to do so since their business model seems to hinge on being the defacto meeting place for strangers wanting a neutral place to meet at some time other than lunch. I've never been asked to buy anything even after spending hours typing away on my laptop waiting for some no-show meeting and deciding to just get some work done before moving on.

Starbucks wants to be known as the place where everyone is welcome. Where adults can loiter all afternoon. Don't believe me: see their CEO's response to this incident.
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:24 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
No, while I agree it was probably racist, it's not illegal to be racist. They weren't refusing to serve them because they were black, that would be illegal. Asking them to leave because they weren't paying customers is an acceptable thing to do, even if it was done to them and not others because they were black. Arbitrarily deciding whether to enforce a policy or not, is not a human right violation.

It's like if a bar has a rule of No Shirt, No Service. They can arbitrarily allow women in without a shirt, but reject men who don't wear one because they are refusing the service for the lack of a shirt, not for being a male. If a rejected man put on a shirt, then he'd be able to get the service.

In the same way, singling these two men out as unwelcome for not being paying customers was likely racist, but it was not illegal. Had the two bought a cup of coffee or simply went and waited outside for their friend and then returned, the issue would have been solved.

The staff acted in a racist manner yes, but the two men didn't help themselves out by refusing to leave because in doing so their actions became criminal. I can fully understand their action because they felt, and were probably right, that they were being singled out for their race, but when you make such a stand, sometimes you have to die on the hill where you make it.
Technically it is illegal in this country to refuse service to someone based on race. A group of young black men at a Woolworth's lunch counter paved the way for that law.

Service: sitting at a table waiting for a friend before ordering. If white people are allowed to do that then it is part of the service Starbucks offers. It's very common in a Starbucks to meet people there.

Unless you kick everyone out who sits at a table waiting for a friend, you have indeed discriminated on the basis of race.

Maybe it's different in New Zealand, but that's the law here. And it would be the judge that would conclude that, not the cops, BTW. Just because the police make an arrest does not mean guilt.
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:25 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
One has to wonder why they didn't just buy a cup of coffee when it was strongly hinted that that would resove the immediate issue?
I don't blame blacks who stand up to the discrimination they face every day.
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:26 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
I think the bigger picture is being missed.

Starbucks sells **** coffee. Why anyone would pay to drink it is a mystery, and selling it should be a crime.
Well we're getting into a matter of taste here, but IMO, Starbucks sells decent coffee; they just charge way too much for it.

I would boycott them over this incident, but
1. I very rarely patronize them anyway, because their coffee is way too expensive.
2. I don't really think they deserve to be boycotted because some employees of one of their stores are racist idiots, provided they take steps to properly train the racist idiots or fire them.
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:26 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
And you can be given a warning or a ticket, you are not always arrested.
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:29 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trespass is a criminal offence in the USA?

I am surprised.
Well, like many things in the US, laws vary depending on state and local jurisdiction, but, in most states anyway, trespass is a criminal offense (usually a low level misdemeanor). It can also be a civil cause of action.
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:33 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Again, you employ the tactic of ignoring the substance of my post and resort to deflection.


Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
To recap:

I explained to you why issuance of a citation would be inappropriate in this instance. You ignore it, clipping it from my post you quoted.
You were wrong.

Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
I explain it again, you deny and you demand a source.
Yes, because I posted a source saying the police had the discretion to warn, write a ticket or arrest.

Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
I explain it yet again, and included a source spelling out very clearly what I was trying to explain, and you discount/ignore it without any justification.
You posted the same source I did, the one that refutes what you said and you ignored what the source said and cherry picked this:
Quote:
There are reasonable grounds to believe the person poses a danger to persons or property, or that the offense will continue...
The friend they were waiting for arrived. There were no more reasonable grounds to believe the offense would continue.


Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Your posts/anger are there for everyone to read. I now see after conversing with you multiple times that this is your normal behavior, which is pretty sad considering you have "skeptic" in your username but refuse to accept even very basic information contrary to your viewpoints.
Spare me.
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