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Old 15th April 2018, 08:57 AM   #1081
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Lavrov now claims the nerve agent that poisoned the Skripals was BZ. based on an analysis by the Swiss Spiez laboratory, and uses that to point fingers at the UK and/or the US.

Of course, if Lavrov says it rains I'd look out the window to see if it's true.

But wait:

Ah, so there was also Novichok. But:

I think we call that "cherry picking".
??? BZ isn't a nerve agent, nor is it particularly toxic. It's also very persistent.
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Old 15th April 2018, 10:42 AM   #1082
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Of course the A-234 would not be in "virgin state" after several weeks , either in the Skripals or at the door knob.
"Of course"? Not my field so I wouldn't know. Do you know?

Quote:
And you are insinuating that this world class laboratory doesn't know what it does with your "atropine" rationalization.
Nope. Not at all. I'm sure they reported exactly what they found, without comment. i.e. Without speculating on why it was in their sample/s.

I literally never heard of this BZ stuff before today. How about you? I'm just trying to make sense of the information people are bringing to the thread.
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Old 15th April 2018, 10:53 AM   #1083
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
"Of course"? Not my field so I wouldn't know. Do you know?


Nope. Not at all. I'm sure they reported exactly what they found, without comment. i.e. Without speculating on why it was in their sample/s.

I literally never heard of this BZ stuff before today. How about you? I'm just trying to make sense of the information people are bringing to the thread.
Me neither - but a quick googling suggests that it works in the same way as atropine (do not use atropine as a treatment - it exacerbates it, for example), which supports what Planigale says (and which is consistent with what Catsmate says)

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Quite right. BZ would in fact be an antidote for a novichok type nerve gas. It is possible that it was used as such, it is more effective theoretically than atropine the 'standard' antidote. If BZ had been used as an antidote and declared as such then its presence is of no significance.
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:02 AM   #1084
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One comment about the volatility or otherwise of novichok agents - it has been reported that at least some are solids, so not very volatile at all.
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:18 AM   #1085
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Good podcast in the BBC World Service about the rise of novichok agents

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cswmp4
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:36 AM   #1086
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
you are insinuating that this world class laboratory [Spiez]doesn't know what it does with your "atropine" rationalization.
You can't just claim Spiez to be world class, to infer that because this 'result' happens to fit you hypothesis, that because they are "world class" then they are better than other labs that have also completed testing but threw up results that don't fit your hypothesis.

DSTL lab at Porton Down and the other labs tasked with analysis by OPCW are also "world class" (whatever that means)

Stop doing things ass backwards. You look at the evidence THEN come up with a hypothesis. Coming up with a story that fits your own biases and then jamming the evidence in later. Jumping on and accentuating bits that bolster your case while minimising the parts that don't is doing it wrong.
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Old 15th April 2018, 11:42 AM   #1087
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Lavrov now claims the nerve agent that poisoned the Skripals was BZ. based on an analysis by the Swiss Spiez laboratory, and uses that to point fingers at the UK and/or the US.

Of course, if Lavrov says it rains I'd look out the window to see if it's true.

But wait:
Quote:
Lavrov said the Swiss laboratory also identified a high concentration of A-234 agent, known as Novichok. Such a concentration would have quickly resulted in Skripal’s death, Lavrov said.
Ah, so there was also Novichok. But:
Quote:
“Taking into account its (A-234) high volatility, the issue of identification of this poisoning substance in its initial state and in high concentration by specialists at the Spiez (research) center seems to be very suspicious,” Lavrov said.
I think we call that "cherry picking".



Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
One comment about the volatility or otherwise of novichok agents - it has been reported that at least some are solids, so not very volatile at all.
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Good podcast in the BBC World Service about the rise of novichok agents

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cswmp4
And indeed this programme states that part of the problem of novichok agents is that they can be a fine powder.
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Old 15th April 2018, 01:24 PM   #1088
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
ddt, you have yet to comment on the actual quotes of the lab and the little Bz issue you were hand-waving away. After that you can try to find a rationalization for virgin state A-234 in samples over two weeks after alleged usage.
I think I've already commented enough on the quotes from the Spiez lab.

As to the BZ issue, others have commented on it. Spiez got several samples, from several origins, including the Skripals themselves. Lavrov did not say in which samples the BZ was found.

As to the A-234 "volatility", Lavrov is not a chemist nor a physicist, but a professional liar. Back up his claim with a reputable source.
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Old 15th April 2018, 01:54 PM   #1089
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I think

I think you've reached a dead end here, ddt. And again insulting someone who is so incredibly far above your shameful ex-foreign minister and assorted slime sitting at the UN and elsewhere licking the Empire's boot, after already fallen on your face the last time you tried it ... well. Sad.
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Old 15th April 2018, 02:21 PM   #1090
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I think you've reached a dead end here, ddt. And again insulting someone who is so incredibly far above your shameful ex-foreign minister and assorted slime sitting at the UN and elsewhere licking the Empire's boot, after already fallen on your face the last time you tried it ... well. Sad.
Which doesn't answer the fact that the OPCW report agreed with the UK's assessment on the identity of the poison.

And that BZ is not what one would use in conjunction with novichok agents to poison people.
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Old 15th April 2018, 02:28 PM   #1091
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I think you've reached a dead end here, ddt. And again insulting someone who is so incredibly far above your shameful ex-foreign minister and assorted slime sitting at the UN and elsewhere licking the Empire's boot, after already fallen on your face the last time you tried it ... well. Sad.
Russia obviously has other standards how truthful the utterances of its FM must be. Halbe Zijlstra (who resigned the day after his lie was exposed) is a choir boy compared to Lavrov. Just catalogue how many different and contradictory explanations he's given about MH17.

I note you cannot back up Lavrov's claim of "volatility" of A-234 with a scientific source.
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Old 15th April 2018, 02:57 PM   #1092
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I note you cannot back up Lavrov's claim of "volatility" of A-234 with a scientific source.

No, what you note is that I don't let you get away with dishonest games. You stay honest or the discussion stops.

Having said that, I personally am quite clueless on chemistry, so I can't back it up without asking some of the chemists I read discussing it recently, none of whom objected to that alleged property of the substance. And I have better things to do. You might check out the comment section of the recent MoA articles if you are genuinely interest.

I'd recommend you instead use the time to do some soul-searching on where you are standing while it gets blindingly obvious which side is plotting and lying here, trying to provoke a major escalation.
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Old 15th April 2018, 03:05 PM   #1093
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Alternatively you could read that many novichok agents are actually solid - that being an attractive feature as far as their utility is concerned. I am sure that Lavrov sometimes tells the truth, when it's convenient, but that's all.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:33 AM   #1094
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Back to tried and tested "conventional" methods....
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Old 18th April 2018, 12:45 AM   #1095
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The poison used was in liquid form. Contaminated sites are identified here for a clean up.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43798068
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Old 18th April 2018, 02:32 AM   #1096
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I reckon it was done by these Jewish terrorists. They are at war with Iran, and they wish to drag America and Britain and France into it, and then blame it all on the Russians. I feel sorry for the Kurds up against Adolf Erdogan and Johnny Turk. The Kurds seem to be the only moderate people in Syria at the moment. Turkey and Saudi Arabia should clear off from Syria. They were never invited there in the first place.
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Old 18th April 2018, 02:40 AM   #1097
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I reckon it was done by these Jewish terrorists.
Why am I not surprised?


Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
They are at war with Iran, and they wish to drag America and Britain and France into it, and then blame it all on the Russians. I feel sorry for the Kurds up against Adolf Erdogan and Johnny Turk. The Kurds seem to be the only moderate people in Syria at the moment. Turkey and Saudi Arabia should clear off from Syria. They were never invited there in the first place.
You do know that Iran and Syria are different countries?

I suggest a bigger tinfoil hat. You current one seems to be restricting blood flow.
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Old 18th April 2018, 02:50 AM   #1098
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I reckon it was done by these Jewish terrorists. They are at war with Iran, and they wish to drag America and Britain and France into it, and then blame it all on the Russians. I feel sorry for the Kurds up against Adolf Erdogan and Johnny Turk. The Kurds seem to be the only moderate people in Syria at the moment. Turkey and Saudi Arabia should clear off from Syria. They were never invited there in the first place.
Did you mean to post this in the "Why Hitler Declared War On The United States" thread?

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Old 18th April 2018, 03:51 AM   #1099
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Gareth Porter has a piece out with some interesting information. It describes the court cases about the selling of the original Novichok stuff to the black market and the murder that was done with it in 1995. The guy Leonid Rink actually sold several vials to several people, including a Chechen organized crime syndicate. And he has Mizayanov claiming that even in storage the A-234 loses several percent of its effectiveness in a year and would not be deadly anymore after a decade or two. So that could be an explanation why the Skripals are still alive - the stuff was actually over twenty years old. I don't think Porter's conclusion is logical, though, as everyone who would use that stuff must have known that it would make waves and the finger would be pointed at Russia. So some patriotic Russian with a personal beef with the traitor Skripal would likely have used something much more profane to kill him. While someone who got hold of such a vial, maybe through the Chechen terrorists he or his organization pampered (Berezovsky anyone?), and had personal beef with a certain VV and his "regime" - well, that would be quite useful.

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Old 18th April 2018, 04:25 AM   #1100
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
... And he has Mizayanov claiming that even in storage the A-234 loses several percent of its effectiveness in a year and would not be deadly anymore after a decade or two. So that could be an explanation why the Skripals are still alive - the stuff was actually over twenty years old...
That hypothesis would appear more plausible if the testing lab had reported on the samples being degraded, but of course they actually remarked on the high purity.

And even if we assume both received a potentially lethal dose, the Skripal's survival can be explained by timely and effective treatment compared to the slow rate of onset when nerve agents are introduced through skin contact. So there really isn't a puzzle that needs explaining there.
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Old 18th April 2018, 04:30 AM   #1101
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
That hypothesis would appear more plausible if the testing lab had reported on the samples being degraded, but of course they actually remarked on the high purity..

That certainly speaks against the theory although I don't know how purity and effectiveness relate here, if they are the same.

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
And even if we assume both received a potentially lethal dose, the Skripal's survival can be explained by timely and effective treatment compared to the slow rate of onset when nerve agents are introduced through skin contact. So there really isn't a puzzle that needs explaining there.

That's plain untrue. I'll say it again: They were originally treated for drug abuse. And by now we can say when the hospital realized that something else was going on, because we collected early reports. It was the morning of the next day.
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Old 18th April 2018, 04:48 AM   #1102
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
That's plain untrue. I'll say it again: They were originally treated for drug abuse.
Yes, you keep saying that because it's a good smear.

Quote:
And by now we can say when the hospital realized that something else was going on, because we collected early reports. It was the morning of the next day.
Their obvious symptoms will have been treated immediately and continuously - the paramedics and then the hospital would not have somehow just waited until the following morning.
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Old 18th April 2018, 05:52 AM   #1103
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Which doesn't answer the fact that the OPCW report agreed with the UK's assessment on the identity of the poison.

And that BZ is not what one would use in conjunction with novichok agents to poison people.
From todays OPCW statement:

Quote:
The precursor of BZ that is referred to in the public statements, commonly known as 3Q, was contained in the control sample prepared by the OPCW Lab in accordance with the existing quality control procedures. Otherwise it has nothing to do with the samples collected by the OPCW Team in Salisbury. This chemical was reported back to the OPCW by the two designated labs and the findings are duly reflected in the report
Seems the Russians were either lying or mistaken.
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Old 18th April 2018, 06:10 AM   #1104
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Their obvious symptoms will have been treated immediately and continuously - the paramedics and then the hospital would not have somehow just waited until the following morning.

Contrary to your underlined claim, mine is a link and goes to reports about the "major incident" in the morning. Deny all you wish.
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Old 18th April 2018, 06:45 AM   #1105
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Contrary to your underlined claim, mine is a link and goes to reports about the "major incident" in the morning. Deny all you wish.
You are assuming the publication time of a news report of a major incident in the town defines the timeline of the hospital's treatment of the Skripal's symptoms. That's illogical.

You have no idea when doctors identified their symptoms as resembling nerve agent exposure or what treatment they chose.

A major incident in the town would only be announced to the press after it became clearer that the Skripals had not just accidentally poisoned themselves, they had come into contact with something really dangerous and that there was a potential serious risk to others.
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Old 18th April 2018, 06:56 AM   #1106
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Contrary to your underlined claim, mine is a link and goes to reports about the "major incident" in the morning. Deny all you wish.
LOL! You think all the medical staff just shrugged and said, "We have no idea what has caused their symptoms, so we won't bother treating those symptoms until we do..."?
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Old 18th April 2018, 06:58 AM   #1107
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
... Seems the Russians were either lying or mistaken.
I'd be content to go with 'mistaken' if the BZ was a control sample and the testing lab simply reported detecting it. I might go as far as 'eagerly seizing on any opportunity to shift the blame' but of course that's not everyone's opinion, as we'll doubtless be reminded.
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Old 18th April 2018, 06:59 AM   #1108
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
You are assuming the publication time of a news report of a major incident in the town defines the timeline of the hospital's treatment of the Skripal's symptoms. That's illogical.

I'm assuming nothing. You are rationalizing without even having read the reports.

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Old 18th April 2018, 07:13 AM   #1109
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Actually, what's more important than what they would've been treated for is what actual treatment was given.

Atropine is given for a lot of conditions other than nerve agents. Including cardiac events and drug overdoses.

So without knowing specifics, saying they were "treated for drug overdose" might well mean they were given the nerve agent antidote immediately.
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Old 18th April 2018, 07:24 AM   #1110
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I'm assuming nothing. You are ratinalizing without even having read the reports.
Just to please you, I re-read the reports.

I read this one too: http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/ne...y_at_Maltings/

I will grant you that the hospital declared a major incident while the Wiltshire police said on Monday they did not think there was a risk to the wider public.

But I stand by my assertion that you have no idea of how soon doctors identified their symptoms as resembling nerve agent exposure or what treatment they chose.

I will note, however, that the report I linked above was from the Sunday and shows crews in elaborate protective clothing removing material, carefully wrapped, from the area where the Skripals were found and decontaminating the area with hoses. The report talks about fentanyl at that stage but I wonder if you think this level of decontamination is normal procedure whenever someone is found with a suspected drugs overdose.
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Old 18th April 2018, 08:02 AM   #1111
Childlike Empress
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Just to please you, I re-read the reports.

The four reports from Monday morning? And our discussion over there so you have read that the report you linked doesn't fit the others and is subject to suspicion? Clever.

edit: Actually the report does fit the others as it only talks about Fentanyl which must be a pretty vicious stuff in itself.

Here the report from Monday morning:

Originally Posted by Salisbury Journal
[...] A MAJOR incident at Salisbury District Hospital this morning (Monday) is linked to a medical emergency in the city last night, police have confirmed.

The accident and emergency (A&E) department at SDH was closed this morning and the fire service was called in to decontaminate the area.

Two people collapsed in the Maltings shopping centre last night and were taken to hospital after they came into contact with an unknown substance.

Emergency services suspect the powerful drug fentanyl - a synthetic opiate 50-100 times stronger than heroin - may have been involved, but nothing has yet been confirmed.

Today two ambulance vehicles marked "incident response unit" attended the hospital.

A green tent was set up outside and security guards turned people away from the department entrance.

A triage unit was set up at the Nunton entrance to treat emergency patients.

The cordon was lifted at around 11.20am and the department is now open again. [...]

Pics and videos are in plain daylight. The other three reports from different sources say the same.

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 18th April 2018 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 18th April 2018, 08:24 AM   #1112
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
From todays OPCW statement:



Seems the Russians were either lying or mistaken.
Surprising no one in this thread or indeed on this planet.
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Old 18th April 2018, 08:30 AM   #1113
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Childlike Empress - can you explain your theory as to what happened? You seem to be just asking questions about things that you personally find incredible, but which are unremarkable.

My theory is that the Skripals were poisoned by novichok in a liquid form by skin contact - probably placed on the door handle and that Russia was responsible for the poisoning.
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Old 18th April 2018, 08:47 AM   #1114
Henri McPhee
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There is an interesting opinion about all this which makes sense to me at this website:

http://stephenlendman.org/2018/03/in...spy-poisoning/

Quote:
Like phony accusations against the Kremlin discussed above and others, not a shred of evidence links Russia to Skripal’s poisoning.

No motive for wanting him harmed exists, knowing Moscow would be automatically blamed.
US, UK and other Russophobes benefit greatly from what happened.

Maybe dark forces in America and/or Britain were responsible for Skripal’s poisoning as a way to blame Russia. Their sordid history of dirty tricks suggests it.

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 18th April 2018 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 18th April 2018, 08:52 AM   #1115
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
The four reports from Monday morning? And our discussion over there so you have read that the report you linked doesn't fit the others and is subject to suspicion? Clever.

edit: Actually the report does fit the others as it only talks about Fentanyl which must be a pretty vicious stuff in itself.

Here the report from Monday morning:




Pics and videos are in plain daylight. The other three reports from different sources say the same.
As you see, the gallery of pics on the 'fentanyl' report dated Sunday show the area in what looks like evening light and at night, including firefighters in hazmat suits, collecting material and hosing down in the street.

I'm not clear what point you're making about other daylight pics, but these ones appear to be from Sunday evening.

Again - do you think firefighters usually take such precautions and hose down the streets when a suspected drugs overdose case is found?

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Old 18th April 2018, 09:00 AM   #1116
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There is an interesting opinion about all this which makes sense to me...
Oh. Yet another opinion piece from someone who can't think of any motive beyond America and Britain just being, you know, the baddies, and who seemingly doesn't remember that Putin won another presidential landslide in the middle of this furore with his vote boosted by the sense that Russia was being blamed and threatened by nasty foreign powers.

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Old 18th April 2018, 09:36 AM   #1117
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That's an interesting article which Childlike Empress presented on this thread, and which I have just read:

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/04/1...ripal-mystery/

Quote:
By Gareth Porter Special to Consortium News

For weeks, British Prime Minister Theresa May and Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson have insisted that there is “no alternative explanation” to Russian government responsibility for the poisoning of former double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury last month.
But in fact the British government is well aware that such an alternative explanation does exist.

It is based on the well-documented fact that the “Novichok” nerve agent synthesized by Soviet scientist in the 1980s had been sold by the scientist–who led the development of the nerve agent– to individuals linked to Russian criminal organizations as long ago as 1994 and was used to kill a Russian banker in 1995.

The connection between the Novichok nerve agent and a previous murder linked to the murky Russian criminal underworld would account for the facts of the Salisbury poisoning far better than the official line that it was a Russian government assassination attempt.

The credibility of the May government’s attempt to blame it on Russian President Vladimir Putin has suffered because of Yulia Skripal’s relatively rapid recovery, the apparent improvement of Sergei Skripal’s condition and a medical specialist’s statement that the Skripals had exhibited no symptoms of nerve agent poisoning.

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 18th April 2018 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 18th April 2018, 10:15 AM   #1118
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
As you see, the gallery of pics on the 'fentanyl' report dated Sunday show the area in what looks like evening light and at night, including firefighters in hazmat suits, collecting material and hosing down in the street.

I'm not clear what point you're making about other daylight pics, but these ones appear to be from Sunday evening.

Again - do you think firefighters usually take such precautions and hose down the streets when a suspected drugs overdose case is found?
I think one would be hard-pressed to find examples of such intensive decontamination being needed in cases of mere "abuse." Rather it seems that that is what is merited when fentanyl is encountered in a weaponised form, with widespread contamination. Ironically, the incapcitant used by the Russian authorities in the Moscow Theatre siege was.... fentanyl-based.

This is clearly at odds with CE's narrative, since while the Skripals may indeed have been treated for the effects of fentanyl, it was not in the context of "abuse," but rather a large-scale poisoning.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 18th April 2018 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 18th April 2018, 12:29 PM   #1119
Childlike Empress
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
This is clearly at odds with CE's narrative...

My narrative doesn't matter. I have ripped the narrative of your war criminal government to shreds here, that is the point. The facts about the black market trade and the following trials, which will be known to UK "intelligence", therefor Maggie May and BoJo the Clown, as well, add another dimension to the ridiculousness of "Putin did it and everything else is unthinkable".
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Old 18th April 2018, 01:00 PM   #1120
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
My narrative doesn't matter. I have ripped the narrative of your war criminal government to shreds here, that is the point. The facts about the black market trade and the following trials, which will be known to UK "intelligence", therefor Maggie May and BoJo the Clown, as well, add another dimension to the ridiculousness of "Putin did it and everything else is unthinkable".

Once more:
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Childlike Empress - can you explain your theory as to what happened? You seem to be just asking questions about things that you personally find incredible, but which are unremarkable.

My theory is that the Skripals were poisoned by novichok in a liquid form by skin contact - probably placed on the door handle and that Russia was responsible for the poisoning.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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