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Old 14th April 2018, 01:11 AM   #241
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Let me assure you that it is absolutely a real thing, especially when people are born and raised into a culture that teaches that such things are possible.

You may personally think that, say, Scientology is ridiculous and you can't understand how people can possibly take it seriously. That doesn't change the fact that there are people who do take it seriously.
Exactly, just like Mormonism and Christianity. The stories are ridiculous, yet people believe it as history and truth.
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Old 14th April 2018, 04:25 AM   #242
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The whole genre of martial arts is hocus pocus so it's not a big step for participants in the "art" to believe another facet of it.
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Old 14th April 2018, 06:15 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
The whole genre of martial arts is hocus pocus so it's not a big step for participants in the "art" to believe another facet of it.
What makes you so baldly assert such a sweeping generalization? Do you ridicule high school wrestlers? How about boxers? Tae Kwon Do and Judo Olympic athletes? Are they all deluding themselves with mystical mumbo-jumbo?
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Old 14th April 2018, 07:05 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by solfe View Post
Fascinating stuff. What I am struck by is the number of things that start off like an actual block or strike, but then turn into some sort of rubber wrist thing. I mean, gee, if you just hammered someone's face while pushing their hand away, I am pretty sure they'd go down.
I trained in a Chinese art called Wing Chun for a couple years, and that was one of the staple techniques, called a pak dar, simultaneous block/deflection with one hand and punch with the other. Simple efficiency, works great without all the time-wasting movements.

Quote:
The last video was particularly bad, you could see the attacker bend and load up to do a flip to the ground. It didn't contain any showmanship.
A legit break-fall (throwing your body into a roll) saves you from getting your arm broken when done defensively. You're right, the hapkiyusul vid showed theatrical break-falling though. My fave was the head throws. Attacker put hands on defenders head and the defender just nodded, and flying through the air he went.
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Old 14th April 2018, 07:48 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What makes you so baldly assert such a sweeping generalization? Do you ridicule high school wrestlers? How about boxers? Tae Kwon Do and Judo Olympic athletes? Are they all deluding themselves with mystical mumbo-jumbo?
Up to exactly this point I don't see where I'm ridiculing anybody; other than pointing out the, to me, obvious.

In my country we don't have high school wrestlers but I would put them, along with boxers, into the combat sport category. I'd put my money on either of them coming out top against any so called martial artist at a similar level. Tae Kwon Do - bollocks to me. Judo? Whenever I've watched it it looks like pulling each others clothes off with some wrestling thrown in.

It's all a game. Watch....

I practice a little known fighting technique originating in Scotland. I'm at Malkie level - which is the highest level you can achieve and I am happy to instruct you in it should you find yourself on our shores. Believe me when I insist I'm legitimate here and let me give you a flavour.

The technique is called Blooterye. To begin you will be at Nippiesweetie level and I will teach you basic moves such as Yoorclaimed and Haudmacoat. These are primarily defensive moves designed to cause your opponent to pause and reconsider getting into a fight with you in the first place.

Close combat moves will follow, which include the most famous move of the technique - the Heed, I'm sure you have heard of that one (told you it was legitimate). At the higher levels (you would have to attain Stoater level to move into this area) I will introduce you to the Chib and instruct you in how to deliver the Glasgow Smile. Trust me when I say your opponent will not be laughing when on the receiving end of that! It is delivered with the cry "Stitchtdatyabastart" and is a game changer not know in any other martial art.

So, I've done exactly what every school of martial arts has done. I've named my style, I've formalised the techniques and given them exotic names and finally, I've identified various levels of expertise that can be attained. It's as legitimate a fighting technique as any you may care to mention. What I haven't done is spank money out of poor deluded marks by suggesting I'll make them invincible with magical moves whilst promising that that is not what my technique is for.

Have I used it? Yes, I've used variations of the two defensive moves against some pretty tough characters (and more than a few chop socky proponents) and have found them very effective and they achieved what I designed them to do. On the few occasions when I've had to deploy Getintaehim (formal fighting techniques) I've been very successful and have wiped the smug look off of many a martial artists mug; if I've had to use the Chib then I've replaced that look with something completely different! As a bonus, my technique is well known to reduce delusion in martial artists.

If you need further proof that martial arts are no more than a joke and a money making scam then go here and part with £40 or so and you'll immediately be a Kenpo Master and instructor.
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Old 14th April 2018, 08:24 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Up to exactly this point I don't see where I'm ridiculing anybody; other than pointing out the, to me, obvious.
'The whole genre of martial arts is hocus pocus'. Yeah, that's ridicule.

Quote:
Tae Kwon Do - bollocks to me.
Why? TKD is almost entirely sport-focused. What, based on your observation, makes it bollocks?

Quote:
Judo? Whenever I've watched it it looks like pulling each others clothes off with some wrestling thrown in.
Watch some more. They do grab clothing (in close combat, why wouldn't you expect this?), unlike a wrestler in his lycra (because that is much more realistic apparel for a combat situation ).

Quote:
It's all a game. Watch....

<snip for brevity>

...What I haven't done is spank money out of poor deluded marks by suggesting I'll make them invincible with magical moves whilst promising that that is not what my technique is for.
I never trained in a school that promises magic anything or invincibility. I've trained in a lot that offer a great workout and a lot of fun sparring. In competition, you get to see just how effective or ineffective your techniques are. By your reasoning, I guess you conclude that all MMA fighters are deluded? Have you ever seriously watched a match? Most are BJJ and Muay Thai based, both martial arts. Just bollacks, then?

Quote:
If you need further proof that martial arts are no more than a joke and a money making scam then go here and part with £40 or so and you'll immediately be a Kenpo Master and instructor.
Yeah, I was the poster who referenced that eBay ad jokingly in Community yesterday. There are hacks and shmucks out there, of course. Serious question: do you think, as a skeptic, that the one smacked ass hack discredits millions of practitioners in hundreds of centuries-old combat styles?
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Old 14th April 2018, 09:30 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
'The whole genre of martial arts is hocus pocus'. Yeah, that's ridicule.



Why? TKD is almost entirely sport-focused. What, based on your observation, makes it bollocks?



Watch some more. They do grab clothing (in close combat, why wouldn't you expect this?), unlike a wrestler in his lycra (because that is much more realistic apparel for a combat situation ).



I never trained in a school that promises magic anything or invincibility. I've trained in a lot that offer a great workout and a lot of fun sparring. In competition, you get to see just how effective or ineffective your techniques are. By your reasoning, I guess you conclude that all MMA fighters are deluded? Have you ever seriously watched a match? Most are BJJ and Muay Thai based, both martial arts. Just bollacks, then?



Yeah, I was the poster who referenced that eBay ad jokingly in Community yesterday. There are hacks and shmucks out there, of course. Serious question: do you think, as a skeptic, that the one smacked ass hack discredits millions of practitioners in hundreds of centuries-old combat styles?
Your training should teach you to be more relaxed and not see ridicule from people who don't agree with you.

Look, I get it that you've bought in to the whole thing and that's perfectly fine, you are in good company. I will never be convinced that it is anything more than a good way to keep fit and can give some badly needed confidence to some ( unfortunately the reverse is also true). MMA from what I've seen is populated by hardnuts and is no more than a street fight what with the kicks and lunges. If you can take a punch and restore well you'll do fine there provided you're fit enough.

Capoeira? What's going on there if not a load of bollocks? Taekwondo? As long as your opponent behaves according to the rules you might land one of those fancy spinning kicks but don't expect your average street hardman to play ball and that 's where all martial arts fail and that is what sells them to most. The ability to defend yourself with mystical powers.
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Old 14th April 2018, 09:45 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Your training should teach you to be more relaxed and not see ridicule from people who don't agree with you.

Look, I get it that you've bought in to the whole thing and that's perfectly fine, you are in good company. I will never be convinced that it is anything more than a good way to keep fit and can give some badly needed confidence to some ( unfortunately the reverse is also true). MMA from what I've seen is populated by hardnuts and is no more than a street fight what with the kicks and lunges. If you can take a punch and restore well you'll do fine there provided you're fit enough.

Capoeira? What's going on there if not a load of bollocks? Taekwondo? As long as your opponent behaves according to the rules you might land one of those fancy spinning kicks but don't expect your average street hardman to play ball and that 's where all martial arts fail and that is what sells them to most. The ability to defend yourself with mystical powers.
I did kyokukishinkiai for a few years as a way of keeping fit and it was fun. I can easily see it being useful in some situations and better than nothing, but equally, against some hardnut with experience, not so much.

When I moved to a different part of the country I tried to find something similar. I did try Taekwondo, but didn't like it because my first reaction to the kicks was to trap the leg and throw, which was frowned upon.

All in all I prefer the far more openly artificial environment of fencing. Of the three, I think that sabre is the most enjoyable.
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Old 14th April 2018, 09:55 AM   #249
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Let me point out at most fights involve some grappling, so MMA really is as close as you can get to a real one on one fight as far as sanctioned sports, as well as its constituent martial arts; boxing, wrestling, kickboxing, BJJ, etc.

Most real fights also largely consist of large, rudimentary movements, so the implicit real fight (with "dirty" tactics) canard is next to groundless in my eyes.

Most average people will throw a big right hook when in the moment, followed up by sloppy lunging strikes and grappling, either the "schoolyard" headlock or grabbing some appendage or the neck and punching, so the most practical avenue would be to practice boxing and wrestling or jiujitsu, where you actually get as close to real practice as possible.
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Old 14th April 2018, 10:28 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Let me point out at most fights involve some grappling, so MMA really is as close as you can get to a real one on one fight as far as sanctioned sports, as well as its constituent martial arts; boxing, wrestling, kickboxing, BJJ, etc.

Most real fights also largely consist of large, rudimentary movements, so the implicit real fight (with "dirty" tactics) canard is next to groundless in my eyes.

Most average people will throw a big right hook when in the moment, followed up by sloppy lunging strikes and grappling, either the "schoolyard" headlock or grabbing some appendage or the neck and punching, so the most practical avenue would be to practice boxing and wrestling or jiujitsu, where you actually get as close to real practice as possible.
Good points. "Real" fighting is 90% instinct and 10% luck; what worked last time might be useless next time.
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Old 14th April 2018, 01:13 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
In my country we don't have high school wrestlers but I would put them, along with boxers, into the combat sport category. I'd put my money on either of them coming out top against any so called martial artist at a similar level. Tae Kwon Do - bollocks to me. Judo? Whenever I've watched it it looks like pulling each others clothes off with some wrestling thrown in.
What the hell are judo & taekwondo if not combat sports? Why, as you seem to imply, is boxing not a martial art?
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Old 14th April 2018, 05:11 PM   #252
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Do I need to post another image of a swordsman putting his sword through a dude's face?
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Old 14th April 2018, 07:04 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
... I will never be convinced ....
Was going to do the point by point thing, but your declared commitment to being closed-minded renders it pointless.
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Old 15th April 2018, 01:43 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Was going to do the point by point thing, but your declared commitment to being closed-minded renders it pointless.
Your slavish devotion to random defensive/aggressive movements and the rendering of said movements into a mystical force is noted.
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Old 15th April 2018, 02:04 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
What the hell are judo & taekwondo if not combat sports? Why, as you seem to imply, is boxing not a martial art?
I didn't categorically state that judo or taekwondo weren't combat sports. I stated that one is clothed wrestling and the other is bollocks.

If I'm forced to make a judgement, I suppose I would concede both could be considered combat sports and boxing could be considered a martial art.

I tend to view the genre "martial arts" as covering those esoteric, obscurely named, made-up fighting techniques such as we are seeing in the videos herein. The reliance on fancy hand waving, posturing, whoops n' hollers, choreographed dance moves and dependence on your opponent behaving in a prescribed way is what separates them from traditional combat sports in my mind.

I appreciate that my view is somewhat jaded and that it is in all probability a minority view, especially in this forum which has a high number of self confessed wimps whose lives have been transformed by learning a "particular set of skills"

Still, like all devotees of the fighting arts, I know when I'm onto a hiding and I yield the floor on these points.

I will think up a name for this yielding of my position and formalise it to add to the pantheon.

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Old 15th April 2018, 11:52 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Up to exactly this point I don't see where I'm ridiculing anybody; other than pointing out the, to me, obvious.

In my country we don't have high school wrestlers but I would put them, along with boxers, into the combat sport category. I'd put my money on either of them coming out top against any so called martial artist at a similar level. Tae Kwon Do - bollocks to me. Judo? Whenever I've watched it it looks like pulling each others clothes off with some wrestling thrown in.

It's all a game. Watch....

I practice a little known fighting technique originating in Scotland. I'm at Malkie level - which is the highest level you can achieve and I am happy to instruct you in it should you find yourself on our shores. Believe me when I insist I'm legitimate here and let me give you a flavour.

The technique is called Blooterye. To begin you will be at Nippiesweetie level and I will teach you basic moves such as Yoorclaimed and Haudmacoat. These are primarily defensive moves designed to cause your opponent to pause and reconsider getting into a fight with you in the first place.

Close combat moves will follow, which include the most famous move of the technique - the Heed, I'm sure you have heard of that one (told you it was legitimate). At the higher levels (you would have to attain Stoater level to move into this area) I will introduce you to the Chib and instruct you in how to deliver the Glasgow Smile. Trust me when I say your opponent will not be laughing when on the receiving end of that! It is delivered with the cry "Stitchtdatyabastart" and is a game changer not know in any other martial art.

So, I've done exactly what every school of martial arts has done. I've named my style, I've formalised the techniques and given them exotic names and finally, I've identified various levels of expertise that can be attained. It's as legitimate a fighting technique as any you may care to mention. What I haven't done is spank money out of poor deluded marks by suggesting I'll make them invincible with magical moves whilst promising that that is not what my technique is for.

Have I used it? Yes, I've used variations of the two defensive moves against some pretty tough characters (and more than a few chop socky proponents) and have found them very effective and they achieved what I designed them to do. On the few occasions when I've had to deploy Getintaehim (formal fighting techniques) I've been very successful and have wiped the smug look off of many a martial artists mug; if I've had to use the Chib then I've replaced that look with something completely different! As a bonus, my technique is well known to reduce delusion in martial artists.

If you need further proof that martial arts are no more than a joke and a money making scam then go here and part with £40 or so and you'll immediately be a Kenpo Master and instructor.
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Old 16th April 2018, 12:42 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
No, your'e not getting it. Banter is verbal jousting and is one of the gentle arts.

My dissertation was a vicous take down. No iron fist in a velvet glove from me.

Your effort is akin to shouting "Ya fanny" to an unknown individual across the street.

Hold on! Did you just call me a fanny?

HAUDMACOAT!
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Old 16th April 2018, 04:11 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I tend to view the genre "martial arts" as covering those esoteric, obscurely named, made-up fighting techniques such as we are seeing in the videos herein. The reliance on fancy hand waving, posturing, whoops n' hollers, choreographed dance moves and dependence on your opponent behaving in a prescribed way is what separates them from traditional combat sports in my mind.
Just because some martial arts are like that doesn't mean that they all are.
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Old 16th April 2018, 04:45 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Just because some martial arts are like that doesn't mean that they all are.
Indeed, and I know that you are keen swordsman which is another martial art.

I'll declare my (perhaps unreasonable) position and try to clear up confusion.

I consider all martial arts, and specifically those which the majority originate from China, Japan and Brazil to be bogus, hocus pocus. I include all derivations of such martial arts, even MMA (which relies heavily on boxing/wrestling skills to gain knock outs and submissions). I'm not talking about stick fighting in Africa etc. I'm talking about the ***** you see in the movies, 'cos that's what most people think about when martial arts are talked about and that's how most participants see themselves at some point when they take these sports up and they can deny it till Kwai Chang Caine comes home.

These games seem, on the face of it, to be an excellent way to keep fit and in many cases instill discipline, which is laudable. Otherwise, they are useless and at the worst end up with the sort of credulous garbage we see in the videos in this thread. You'll never see such nonsense in boxing or wrestling but throw an origination of East Asia into the mix and...........

I understand that a lot of people have a lot invested in martial arts in terms of time alone not to mention money. I understand that some have attained fancy honorifics that they may not be willing to concede are pretty meaningless outside the gym and the same goes for colourful belts and other attire. Not to mention the fact that it is unlikely they are going to be of any real help against a handy street fighter and may well help you on the way to getting your arse handed to you if you rely too heavily upon them.

I also understand that I'm being close minded but I don't have to eat my dogs vomit to know it's not gonna taste very good!

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Old 16th April 2018, 05:04 AM   #260
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Yeah. Took part in a lot of discussions on the "street fighter" idea back in the 90s. It kind of ignores the fact that a good number of (especially MMA) martial artists employ their skills against these street fighters as part of their job. Geoff Thompson's "Watch my back" is pretty much required reading in close protection courses.
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Old 16th April 2018, 05:16 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Yeah. Took part in a lot of discussions on the "street fighter" idea back in the 90s. It kind of ignores the fact that a good number of (especially MMA) martial artists employ their skills against these street fighters as part of their job. Geoff Thompson's "Watch my back" is pretty much required reading in close protection courses.
I'll have look for/at that. Not surprised to hear about MMA fighters employing their skills as I'm willing to bet they employ mainly wrestling holds.

ETA - I've just bought the paperback from Amazon, as I suspected he's a bouncer. I've yet to meet one who wasn't a thug operating in at least pairs. It'll arrive next week, we'll see.

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Old 16th April 2018, 05:55 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I'll have look for/at that. Not surprised to hear about MMA fighters employing their skills as I'm willing to bet they employ mainly wrestling holds.

ETA - I've just bought the paperback from Amazon, as I suspected he's a bouncer. I've yet to meet one who wasn't a thug operating in at least pairs. It'll arrive next week, we'll see.
I wouldn't call myself a thug but that was in the rather refined environs of the QMU (at Glasgow Uni) if you know it 78-81. And doorman operating in pairs is just good sense. The point isn't to offer a square go, it's to nip trouble in the bud. This was not the attitude of the bouncers at the Apollo in the same era however. Though it was of guys I knew who worked Princes(?) casino at the same time.
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:11 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I wouldn't call myself a thug but that was in the rather refined environs of the QMU (at Glasgow Uni) if you know it 78-81. And doorman operating in pairs is just good sense. The point isn't to offer a square go, it's to nip trouble in the bud. This was not the attitude of the bouncers at the Apollo in the same era however. Though it was of guys I knew who worked Princes(?) casino at the same time.
If you don't like the book, name a charity and I'll donate the price of the book.
I'm not familiar with the QMU, coming from the North East Coast although the era you talk of was quite a tasty time down that way, gangwise. I doubt they encroached much upon Uni property but I'd understand if a less than kid glove approach was employed when dealing with them if they did.

My experience with bouncers has been more the Apollo and has never went well for me (I'm talking many decades ago now). The worst was when asked to leave (The Ballroom Dunfermline) and getting up to do so quite happily I was goosestepped out of the building by two bouncers and despite allowing them to "escort" me in this way I was thrown down stairs and set upon. I still have a scar across the bridge of my nose!

You may well be a exception, with respect, in your own mind, but you'll be very much that in mine. Please don't take offence.

I paid the princely sum of £0.01 for the book with postage at £2.80 so thank you for your kind offer but I'll take the book on face value and you'll not be out of pocket. I have to say that, reading some of the more balanced reviews, Mr Thompson seems a bit of a sucker punch specialist if they are to be believed. As I say, we'll see.

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Old 16th April 2018, 06:13 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Yeah. Took part in a lot of discussions on the "street fighter" idea back in the 90s. It kind of ignores the fact that a good number of (especially MMA) martial artists employ their skills against these street fighters as part of their job. Geoff Thompson's "Watch my back" is pretty much required reading in close protection courses.
My two favorite sparring partners in Wing Chun were both part-time bouncers in Atlantic City, NJ USA, and law enforcement and military have openly borrowed techniques from the Asian arts for years. My Kosho-Ryu Kempo instructor from way back was an active duty MP in the Nat'l Guard, my Goju-Ryu instructor taught local cops, and half the NY testing board in Hapkido are cops. They bring a great perspective on what works and what doesn't to the schools.
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:19 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My two favorite sparring partners in Wing Chun were both part-time bouncers in Atlantic City, NJ USA, and law enforcement and military have openly borrowed techniques from the Asian arts for years. My Kosho-Ryu Kempo instructor from way back was an active duty MP in the Nat'l Guard, my Goju-Ryu instructor taught local cops, and half the NY testing board in Hapkido are cops. They bring a great perspective on what works and what doesn't to the schools.
I've watched countless police takedowns from all over the US and have yet to see a situation when the perp wasn't simply wrestled to the ground by one or more officers (or shot out of hand). Can't speak of military and that's probably because there isn't much hand to hand combat these days.

I'd be interested to see any videos where obvious Asian martial arts moves have been deployed. I'm off to have a look-see but if you can help I'd appreciate it.
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:36 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I've watched countless police takedowns from all over the US and have yet to see a situation when the perp wasn't simply wrestled to the ground by one or more officers (or shot out of hand). Can't speak of military and that's probably because there isn't much hand to hand combat these days.

I'd be interested to see any videos where obvious Asian martial arts moves have been deployed. I'm off to have a look-see but if you can help I'd appreciate it.
I'll check too but I don't watch many videos so I'll be starting off pretty much from where you are. Watch for basic moves like the arm bar, rear naked chokes, and escort moves. All are jiu-jitsu/judo based and are incorporated because they work efficiently.

BTW, I don't know what experience you have with Asian arts, but regarding the honorifics and fancy attire: the last three places I trained, the attire was sweats or shorts and a t-shirt. Our mystical greetings were 'Sup, Barry' and 'Hey, Thermal'. It's really not like what you see in the movies.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:06 AM   #267
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Grabbed an article and a security video of a cop doing a takedown and arm bar, I'm sure there are better out there.

https://blackbeltmag.com/masters/jim...tics-training/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE4UMBQVuX4

eta: wanted to include another showing Aikido techniques, since a lot of posters think it is all dancing. This one shows a move called nikkyo about halfway through, it puts pressure on the arm's radial nerve and drops you like a rock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=578EP6pZeqU

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Old 16th April 2018, 07:08 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I'll check too but I don't watch many videos so I'll be starting off pretty much from where you are. Watch for basic moves like the arm bar, rear naked chokes, and escort moves. All are jiu-jitsu/judo based and are incorporated because they work efficiently.

BTW, I don't know what experience you have with Asian arts, but regarding the honorifics and fancy attire: the last three places I trained, the attire was sweats or shorts and a t-shirt. Our mystical greetings were 'Sup, Barry' and 'Hey, Thermal'. It's really not like what you see in the movies.
Lets just say my search results thus far didn't exactly promote the use of Asian martial arts by LEO, what with being mainly spoofs and the tactic of describing a basic rugby tackle, followed by a short period of wrestling ended by use of a tazer as "JIU-JITSU".

To clarify, I'm unikely to be impressed by this tactic. A rear choke isn't a specialised move and will be adopted by just about anybody if the circumstances permit. The arm bar, I'd like to see but it's a wrestling move and not specific to Asian martial arts.

You practice Wing Chun, that has a sash system and the honorifics, "Shifu", "Gong Sao Wong" and probably a few more I don't know about. Your gyms clearly differ.

I, as you might be aware, have zero experience with formal martial arts apart from boxing (and of course Blooterye) for reasons that will be obvious from my participation in this thread
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:15 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Grabbed an article and a security video of a cop doing a takedown and arm bar, I'm sure there are better out there.

https://blackbeltmag.com/masters/jim...tics-training/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE4UMBQVuX4
Thanks, I'll give you the arm bar video, a good take down.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:41 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Lets just say my search results thus far didn't exactly promote the use of Asian martial arts by LEO, what with being mainly spoofs and the tactic of describing a basic rugby tackle, followed by a short period of wrestling ended by use of a tazer as "JIU-JITSU".

To clarify, I'm unikely to be impressed by this tactic. A rear choke isn't a specialised move and will be adopted by just about anybody if the circumstances permit. The arm bar, I'd like to see but it's a wrestling move and not specific to Asian martial arts.

You practice Wing Chun, that has a sash system and the honorifics, "Shifu", "Gong Sao Wong" and probably a few more I don't know about. Your gyms clearly differ.

I, as you might be aware, have zero experience with formal martial arts apart from boxing (and of course Blooterye) for reasons that will be obvious from my participation in this thread
I switched from WC to Hapkido last year. Sashes appear to be a recent thing, as traditional schools don't even use ranking. I guess some are giving in to commercial pressure, I dunno. We did use Sifu, which just means teacher.

You mentioned the arm bar as being a wrestling move (takedowns are,too). The thing is, wrestling adopted them from centuries-old jiu-jutsu.

If you were to walk into my previous Wing Chun kwoon, you would no doubt be surprised. It would remind you a lot of a boxing gym, both in how the training worked and the motivation of the students. A new student will sometimes come to learn to be super-ninja, which I think is your impression. They don't last long when they find out that there are no mystical tricks, it's all technique and training, training, training.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:59 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I switched from WC to Hapkido last year. Sashes appear to be a recent thing, as traditional schools don't even use ranking. I guess some are giving in to commercial pressure, I dunno. We did use Sifu, which just means teacher.

You mentioned the arm bar as being a wrestling move (takedowns are,too). The thing is, wrestling adopted them from centuries-old jiu-jutsu.

If you were to walk into my previous Wing Chun kwoon, you would no doubt be surprised. It would remind you a lot of a boxing gym, both in how the training worked and the motivation of the students. A new student will sometimes come to learn to be super-ninja, which I think is your impression. They don't last long when they find out that there are no mystical tricks, it's all technique and training, training, training.
We need to be careful we don't end up trying to prove which came first (wrestling or jiu-jutsu) as one, wrestling, is recorded as far back as circa 770BC. I'm guessing that they developed seperately.

You're right about my impression that people take it up as they see it as being a step towards some super-ninja, zen like state. It's marketed that way, albeit subtly. The number of times I've heard "you need to watch so and so he's a [insert colour] belt or [insert number] dan informs me that the general public have bought in to the whole shebang too.This has been the case since before the movies took things a whole stage further.

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Old 16th April 2018, 08:25 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
We need to be careful we don't end up trying to prove which came first (wrestling or jiu-jutsu) as one, wrestling, is recorded as far back as circa 770BC. I'm guessing that they developed seperately.

You're right about my impression that people take it up as they see it as being a step towards some super-ninja, zen like state. It's marketed that way, albeit subtly. The number of times I've heard "you need to watch so and so he's a [insert colour] belt or [insert number] dan informs me that the genral public have boufght in to the whole shebang too.This has been the case since before the movies took things a whole stage further.
Both fair points. I am trying to lobby for the non-super-ninja crowd that trains. A lot of schools teach their whole curriculum, as they learned it from their teacher and on and on, so you do get some of that Ancient Oriental Secrets vibe. But ultimately, it's a way to have fun. I have no interest, for instance, in getting in street fights and using mystical powers, but it is a ton of fun to gear up and spar with buddies. Martial arts are a great way to do that in a more or less controlled setting. Self-defense techniques are kind of a back-burner thing, but it is true that they provide the initial incentive for some people to come check it out. Some guys get into running, some like sparring, but it's all good clean fun and exercise.

eta: belts. The colors mean literally nothing outside the school. It's true that some folks will be all in awe about them, but that is usually because they have no idea what they mean or represent. Some schools will award a black belt in a year or two. Some take 15 years. It's completely arbitrary, so whether your school is recognized is what matters. Remember the eBay ad you posted upthread? It would mean nothing to a martial artist. It would just be a tip-off that the holder was a smacked ass.

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Old 16th April 2018, 09:29 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Both fair points. I am trying to lobby for the non-super-ninja crowd that trains. A lot of schools teach their whole curriculum, as they learned it from their teacher and on and on, so you do get some of that Ancient Oriental Secrets vibe. But ultimately, it's a way to have fun. I have no interest, for instance, in getting in street fights and using mystical powers, but it is a ton of fun to gear up and spar with buddies. Martial arts are a great way to do that in a more or less controlled setting. Self-defense techniques are kind of a back-burner thing, but it is true that they provide the initial incentive for some people to come check it out. Some guys get into running, some like sparring, but it's all good clean fun and exercise.

eta: belts. The colors mean literally nothing outside the school. It's true that some folks will be all in awe about them, but that is usually because they have no idea what they mean or represent. Some schools will award a black belt in a year or two. Some take 15 years. It's completely arbitrary, so whether your school is recognized is what matters. Remember the eBay ad you posted upthread? It would mean nothing to a martial artist. It would just be a tip-off that the holder was a smacked ass.
This, this and this.
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:54 AM   #274
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Yeah belts are like degrees. You can get a degree online for a few quid or you can invest years at Oxford or MIT. You can get a black belt 4th dan before your voice breaks at a TKD class down the mall or you can earn a purple belt in Gracie JJ. My style the only rank sign was you weren't supposed to wear a black club t shirt until you'd done the conditioning training that meant people could play a bit rough with you. Most didn't bother.
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:10 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I, as you might be aware, have zero experience with formal martial arts apart from boxing (and of course Blooterye) for reasons that will be obvious from my participation in this thread
I boxed for a while and I annoy some people because when someone asks "What MA should I take to learn to fight" instead of the prescribed "Well it's a question of what works for you....." I always reply "Boxing. Hands down, no question." and judge them by how they respond.
Like many things in life, most people don't want to learn a martial art. They want to have learned a martial art. They don't want to be asking the best treatment for a torn ACL or "Does this nose look straight to you?" or last that one more minute on the mat.
I've also found it a great way to make friends. Most of my longest lasting friendships were built on that, some with people I massively disagree with on many subjects.
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:41 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I boxed for a while and I annoy some people because when someone asks "What MA should I take to learn to fight" instead of the prescribed "Well it's a question of what works for you....." I always reply "Boxing. Hands down, no question." and judge them by how they respond.
Like many things in life, most people don't want to learn a martial art. They want to have learned a martial art. They don't want to be asking the best treatment for a torn ACL or "Does this nose look straight to you?" or last that one more minute on the mat.
I've also found it a great way to make friends. Most of my longest lasting friendships were built on that, some with people I massively disagree with on many subjects.
You should now add Blooterye to your list of options.

You are bang on with regards to your observations.
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Old 16th April 2018, 11:04 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Up to exactly this point I don't see where I'm ridiculing anybody; other than pointing out the, to me, obvious.

In my country we don't have high school wrestlers but I would put them, along with boxers, into the combat sport category. I'd put my money on either of them coming out top against any so called martial artist at a similar level. Tae Kwon Do - bollocks to me. Judo? Whenever I've watched it it looks like pulling each others clothes off with some wrestling thrown in.

It's all a game. Watch....

I practice a little known fighting technique originating in Scotland. I'm at Malkie level - which is the highest level you can achieve and I am happy to instruct you in it should you find yourself on our shores. Believe me when I insist I'm legitimate here and let me give you a flavour.

The technique is called Blooterye. To begin you will be at Nippiesweetie level and I will teach you basic moves such as Yoorclaimed and Haudmacoat. These are primarily defensive moves designed to cause your opponent to pause and reconsider getting into a fight with you in the first place.

Close combat moves will follow, which include the most famous move of the technique - the Heed, I'm sure you have heard of that one (told you it was legitimate). At the higher levels (you would have to attain Stoater level to move into this area) I will introduce you to the Chib and instruct you in how to deliver the Glasgow Smile. Trust me when I say your opponent will not be laughing when on the receiving end of that! It is delivered with the cry "Stitchtdatyabastart" and is a game changer not know in any other martial art.

So, I've done exactly what every school of martial arts has done. I've named my style, I've formalised the techniques and given them exotic names and finally, I've identified various levels of expertise that can be attained. It's as legitimate a fighting technique as any you may care to mention. What I haven't done is spank money out of poor deluded marks by suggesting I'll make them invincible with magical moves whilst promising that that is not what my technique is for.

Have I used it? Yes, I've used variations of the two defensive moves against some pretty tough characters (and more than a few chop socky proponents) and have found them very effective and they achieved what I designed them to do. On the few occasions when I've had to deploy Getintaehim (formal fighting techniques) I've been very successful and have wiped the smug look off of many a martial artists mug; if I've had to use the Chib then I've replaced that look with something completely different! As a bonus, my technique is well known to reduce delusion in martial artists.

If you need further proof that martial arts are no more than a joke and a money making scam then go here and part with £40 or so and you'll immediately be a Kenpo Master and instructor.
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Old 16th April 2018, 11:14 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I didn't categorically state that judo or taekwondo weren't combat sports. I stated that one is clothed wrestling and the other is bollocks.

If I'm forced to make a judgement, I suppose I would concede both could be considered combat sports and boxing could be considered a martial art.

I tend to view the genre "martial arts" as covering those esoteric, obscurely named, made-up fighting techniques such as we are seeing in the videos herein. The reliance on fancy hand waving, posturing, whoops n' hollers, choreographed dance moves and dependence on your opponent behaving in a prescribed way is what separates them from traditional combat sports in my mind.

I appreciate that my view is somewhat jaded and that it is in all probability a minority view, especially in this forum which has a high number of self confessed wimps whose lives have been transformed by learning a "particular set of skills"

Still, like all devotees of the fighting arts, I know when I'm onto a hiding and I yield the floor on these points.

I will think up a name for this yielding of my position and formalise it to add to the pantheon.
I'm with you on this.
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Old 16th April 2018, 12:13 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I consider all martial arts, and specifically those which the majority originate from China, Japan and Brazil to be bogus, hocus pocus.
Wait. You think both Judo and BJJ are bogus hocus pocus?

I've sparred takedowns with Judo black belts and they are good. My wrestling is okay and they leave themselves open to some leg attacks, but if they get in tight you can go flying.

The idea that BJJ is bogus hocus pocus is odd. It's effectiveness was proven pretty well in the 90's.

Quote:
I include all derivations of such martial arts, even MMA (which relies heavily on boxing/wrestling skills to gain knock outs and submissions).
MMA is bogus hocus pocus? Can you maybe clarify what you mean by this because I don't really understand.
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Old 16th April 2018, 12:14 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
It's definitely a real thing. While no one can know exactly what goes in their minds, if it were not a real thing they would not allow themselves to be challenged and we see several examples of genuine challenges being accepted in this thread. At some level, at least some of them must believe that they really do have special powers.
I don't think that necessarily follows. I believe these folks accept challenges because they either believe even the challenger will defer to them due to the cultural taboo against disrespecting venerated elders, or (especially in the case of western charlatans) they expect their underlings to have properly filtered out true skeptics with bad intentions and to only be allowing phony/complicit "challengers" to have access to the master for dramatic demonstration purposes.
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