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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 16th April 2018, 06:25 AM   #2321
lomiller
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
“I shouldn’t have to read links.”

What’s not to understand? “There is something in this link that I think is important, but I won’t tell you what or why anyone should bother with it” isn’t worth the time it took you to embed the link. If you can’t describe your position in your own words then it has no merit and we with our rights to dismiss it out of hand.
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Old 16th April 2018, 06:40 AM   #2322
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
What’s not to understand? “There is something in this link that I think is important, but I won’t tell you what or why anyone should bother with it” isn’t worth the time it took you to embed the link. If you can’t describe your position in your own words then it has no merit and we with our rights to dismiss it out of hand.
He can clearly describe it. Links help to describe it. Not sure what the big deal is.

This site regularly asks people to put up sources and links.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:00 AM   #2323
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
He can clearly describe it.
If he can explain the argument in his own words why does he keep refusing to do so?
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:09 AM   #2324
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Trump is now asking that he be the one to go through materials taken in the raid on his lawyer's office, saying that he personally is the only one who should be allowed to determine what is and isn't fair game.

Normally this would be done by a team unrelated to the case at hand, who would be bound by attorney client privilege to not reveal anything. This isn't exactly the first time this has been needed.

Trump thinks the courts will allow him to go through this material personally even though he's biased AND would see things he's not privileged to see. There's zero chance this will work, so the question is did he think it would work or is it something where he thinks this will somehow make it look better for him?
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:11 AM   #2325
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
If he can explain the argument in his own words why does he keep refusing to do so?
The poster who does not state his argument is indiscernible from the poster who can not state his argument.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:18 AM   #2326
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Trump is now asking that he be the one to go through materials taken in the raid on his lawyer's office, saying that he personally is the only one who should be allowed to determine what is and isn't fair game.
It sounds like he's kind of missing the whole point of a search warrant.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:21 AM   #2327
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Trump is now asking that he be the one to go through materials taken in the raid on his lawyer's office, saying that he personally is the only one who should be allowed to determine what is and isn't fair game.

Normally this would be done by a team unrelated to the case at hand, who would be bound by attorney client privilege to not reveal anything. This isn't exactly the first time this has been needed.

Trump thinks the courts will allow him to go through this material personally even though he's biased AND would see things he's not privileged to see. There's zero chance this will work, so the question is did he think it would work or is it something where he thinks this will somehow make it look better for him?
I don't think that's the suggestion. Rather, Trump and Cohen will review the documents and ask the judge to approve their choices of privileged communication, rather than a "tainted team".

That's what I got from the Post article.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:27 AM   #2328
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Trump is now asking that he be the one to go through materials taken in the raid on his lawyer's office, saying that he personally is the only one who should be allowed to determine what is and isn't fair game.

Normally this would be done by a team unrelated to the case at hand, who would be bound by attorney client privilege to not reveal anything. This isn't exactly the first time this has been needed.

Trump thinks the courts will allow him to go through this material personally even though he's biased AND would see things he's not privileged to see. There's zero chance this will work, so the question is did he think it would work or is it something where he thinks this will somehow make it look better for him?
You are quite correct.

I do not expect that the courts will allow Trump (or any other potential defendant) to determine just what materials that were discovered by a search warrant that the courts should be allowed to see and just what materials should be excluded from the courts.

That is rather like letting the fox guard the hen house.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:32 AM   #2329
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It's another attempt at Obstruktion Obstruction of Justice., plain and simple.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:34 AM   #2330
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's another attempt at Obstruktion of Justice., plain and simple.
A side note - I think I read there is no such thing as attempted obstruction of justice.

If you attempt it, it IS obstruction of justice.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:42 AM   #2331
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Trump is now asking that he be the one to go through materials taken in the raid on his lawyer's office, saying that he personally is the only one who should be allowed to determine what is and isn't fair game.

Normally this would be done by a team unrelated to the case at hand, who would be bound by attorney client privilege to not reveal anything. This isn't exactly the first time this has been needed.

Trump thinks the courts will allow him to go through this material personally even though he's biased AND would see things he's not privileged to see. There's zero chance this will work, so the question is did he think it would work or is it something where he thinks this will somehow make it look better for him?
It's like Nixon asking to provide summaries of the tapes instead of the tapes themselves.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:46 AM   #2332
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
The poster who does not state his argument is indiscernible from the poster who can not state his argument.
Because I am not making an "argument" I am reciting facts regarding what the OIG's report said.

It was demanded that I state with SPECIFICITY what those facts were, and I went one better: I provided direct links to the report.

This bizarrely caused much gnashing of the teeth for reasons for which I cannot even begin to speculate.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:54 AM   #2333
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
He can clearly describe it. Links help to describe it. Not sure what the big deal is.

This site regularly asks people to put up sources and links.
Sources and links can be very helpful, but as a practical matter, if you are directing someone to something that will take more than 5 minutes to read, your post should either have quotes from the source that you think are relevant or directions to where in the source the information you think is relevant is. Linking to a thirty page government document written in bureaucracy without further guidance is asking people to take an hour out of their day to try to figure out what you are talking about.

Detailed instructions and advice about directing people to outside sources of information in a helpful way can be found here.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:57 AM   #2334
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
Sources and links can be very helpful, but as a practical matter, if you are directing someone to something that will take more than 5 minutes to read, your post should either have quotes from the source that you think are relevant or directions to where in the source the information you think is relevant is. Linking to a thirty page government document written in bureaucracy without further guidance is asking people to take an hour out of their day to try to figure out what you are talking about.

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Everyone has their style. I’ve had complaints of no links to why should we believe you and now I have no time to read the links.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:59 AM   #2335
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
If he can explain the argument in his own words why does he keep refusing to do so?
Maybe he doesn’t like playing the games posters who have no argument like to play?
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:01 AM   #2336
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
Sources and links can be very helpful, but as a practical matter, if you are directing someone to something that will take more than 5 minutes to read, your post should either have quotes from the source that you think are relevant or directions to where in the source the information you think is relevant is. Linking to a thirty page government document written in bureaucracy without further guidance is asking people to take an hour out of their day to try to figure out what you are talking about.

Detailed instructions and advice about directing people to outside sources of information in a helpful way can be found here.
The document had a summary, a conclusion, a table of contents, and I specifically directed our readers to the place in the table of contents and the page number where the analysis began.

That wasn't good enough?
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:11 AM   #2337
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Because I am not making an "argument"
On this we can agree. No argument at all. I guess we are done then?
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:25 AM   #2338
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
On this we can agree. No argument at all. I guess we are done then?
Thank you! You nailed it, it was not an argument, it was the presentation of easily ascertainable objective facts, and I provided a link to those easily ascertainable objective facts.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:35 AM   #2339
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The document had a summary, a conclusion, a table of contents, and I specifically directed our readers to the place in the table of contents and the page number where the analysis began.

That wasn't good enough?
Eh, kinda no. It's a pretty dense chunk of text and not exactly written in simple English. The portion of the report going into what he actually did wrong is nine pages of stuff like...

Quote:
...Comey did not testify that McCabe affirmatively and explicitly denied having authorized the disclosure, but rather that McCabe “in form or fashion” led him to believe that McCabe did not know how the WSJ got the account of the PADAG call, and “definitely didn’t tell [Comey] he authorized it.” The FBI Offense code 2.5 (Lack of Candor – No Oath) does not require an explicit false statement to establish lack of candor. It applies to “the failure to be fully forthright, or the concealment or omission of a material fact/information.” We concluded that McCabe lacked candor in concealing from Comey his role in authorizing the disclosure to the WSJ...
...Followed by a footnote that takes up half a page. There's two "did not"s, a "denied", and a "didn't" in a single sentence. Now I am not exactly stupid, but this is a hard slog through the swamp for me. Directing people to something like this without further instruction as to what it means or how to figure out what it means is asking everyone else to do a lot of work to find something that you seem to think is fairly straightforward.

I would recommend writing a brief summary about what he lied about (twenty-five words or less for each lie), point out what sections of the report deals with each lie, and if people want to get lost in the weeds about it they can.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:38 AM   #2340
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thank you! You nailed it, it was not an argument, it was the presentation of easily ascertainable objective facts, and I provided a link to those easily ascertainable objective facts.
Great.

And if someone wants to assert something about those facts I may even look into them. But, facts alone don't make for much of a conversation. I'm wearing black socks.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:40 AM   #2341
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
You are quite correct.

I do not expect that the courts will allow Trump (or any other potential defendant) to determine just what materials that were discovered by a search warrant that the courts should be allowed to see and just what materials should be excluded from the courts.

That is rather like letting the fox guard the hen house.
From WaPo:

Quote:
Any disputes about what material was or wasn’t covered by the attorney-client privilege would then be decided by a judge, under the president’s proposal.
Trump is not proposing that he or Cohen has the last word.

I'm not defending this suggestion, but it's not as bad as people are making it out to be.
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:04 AM   #2342
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Originally Posted by logger View Post

This site regularly asks people to put up sources and links.
I’m note sure what’s so hard about this. All you need to do is explain the argument you are making and provide supporting evidence to the key points for your explanation.

Yes, may need links to support your argument, but they are not a substitute for actually explaining your argument.
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Old 16th April 2018, 09:59 AM   #2343
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Because I am not making an "argument" I am reciting facts regarding what the OIG's report said.

It was demanded that I state with SPECIFICITY what those facts were, and I went one better: I provided direct links to the report.

This bizarrely caused much gnashing of the teeth for reasons for which I cannot even begin to speculate.
You said McCabe LIED 5 TIMES. I asked you tell us what those 5 lies were. Instead you referred everyone to read a dense 35 PAGE REPORT.

I read it over and over again and found it difficult to follow. I thought perhaps since you are so outraged over these lies you could summarize what they were. Because I'm still confused. And I bet you are too and I guess you are just faking your outrage.

Care to show us what you are outraged over specifically? Or are you going to punt?
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:01 AM   #2344
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You said McCabe LIED 5 TIMES. I asked you tell us what those 5 lies were. Instead you referred everyone to read a dense 35 PAGE REPORT.

I read it over and over again and found it difficult to follow. I thought perhaps since you are so outraged over these lies you could summarize what they were. Because I'm still confused. And I bet you are too and I guess you are just faking your outrage.

Care to show us what you are outraged over specifically? Or are you going to punt?
Oh, sorry to hear that. I found it very easy to read, follow and understand. Oh well.
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:03 AM   #2345
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh, sorry to hear that. I found it very easy to read, follow and understand. Oh well.
The usual dodge.
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:07 AM   #2346
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh, sorry to hear that. I found it very easy to read, follow and understand. Oh well.
Your argument would be more convincing if you put a link to the report and quoted the key parts.

It's not difficult.
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:24 AM   #2347
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Your argument would be more convincing if you put a link to the report and quoted the key parts.

It's not difficult.
I did put a link to the report... they want me to cut and paste a report....

wow...

Hey Big Dog, retype the OIG's report because when the OIG said he testified falsely under oath we can't understand that!

Quote:
For these reasons, we concluded that McCabe violated FBI Offense Code 2.6
(Lack of Candor Under Oath) when he falsely told INSD agents on May 9, 2017, that he did not know who authorized the disclosure of the PADAG call to the WSJ.

....

We concluded that McCabe lacked candor during his OIG audio-recorded interview under oath on July 28, 2017, when he falsely stated that: (a)he was not aware of Special Counsel being authorized to speak to reporters around October 30and (b)he did not know,because he was out of town,“where [Special Counsel] was or what she was doing”during the relevant time period.

....

We concluded that McCabe lacked candor during an OIG interview under oath on November 29, 2017, when he falsely told the OIG in a recorded interview that: (a) he told Comey on October 31, 2016, that he (McCabe) had authorized the disclosure to the WSJ and that Comey agreed it was a “good” idea; (b) he did not deny to the INSD agents on May 9 that he had authorized the disclosure to the WSJ.
Hey, that was a big pain in the ass. You can't just cut and paste from Scribd and you have to reformat PDFs entirely

In fact there were numerous of other individual lies mentioned in the report, and in fact another whole major lie that I overlooked ("(c) the May 9 INSD interview occurred at the end of an unrelated meeting") which makes at least SIX major lies, and I left out two entire sections of the report about lack of candor and violating media policies.

I cannot wait for the posts that follow to minimize, ignore or nitpick these findings.

"when he falsely told the OIG in a recorded interview that..." So confusing!
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:28 AM   #2348
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Thank you
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:33 AM   #2349
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh, sorry to hear that. I found it very easy to read, follow and understand. Oh well.
I don't believe you've read it, and I very much doubt anybody else believes it. You've been told there are 5 lies revealed in there and you believe it because you want to, and believing what you want to believe is how you get through life.
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:39 AM   #2350
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh, sorry to hear that. I found it very easy to read, follow and understand. Oh well.
So that's a punt then. That's what I thought.
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:40 AM   #2351
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Such a simple thing, but it's worth reminding everyone:

Why are conservatives so concerned with the thought that Comey or McCabe lied, but when Donald lies over and over again, welp...that's no big deal?
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:43 AM   #2352
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Such a simple thing, but it's worth reminding everyone:

Why are conservatives so concerned with the thought that Comey or McCabe lied, but when Donald lies over and over again, welp...that's no big deal?
As near as I can figure, the reason why so many conservatives constantly kiss up to Trump is is because Trump is not a black man and because Trump is not a female Clinton.
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Old 16th April 2018, 10:57 AM   #2353
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
I don't believe you've read it, and I very much doubt anybody else believes it. You've been told there are 5 lies revealed in there and you believe it because you want to, and believing what you want to believe is how you get through life.
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
So that's a punt then. That's what I thought.
'k.

although there are actually at least six major lies...
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Old 16th April 2018, 11:00 AM   #2354
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post

Hey, that was a big pain in the ass. You can't just cut and paste from Scribd and you have to reformat PDFs entirely
Not sure what to tell you. I did it with no problem with Google Chrome. Straight copypaste job.

Quote:
In fact there were numerous of other individual lies mentioned in the report, and in fact another whole major lie that I overlooked ("(c) the May 9 INSD interview occurred at the end of an unrelated meeting") which makes at least SIX major lies, and I left out two entire sections of the report about lack of candor and violating media policies.

I cannot wait for the posts that follow to minimize, ignore or nitpick these findings.

"when he falsely told the OIG in a recorded interview that..." So confusing!
OK, that's a little more clear. It does seem that McCabe was lying or dissembling in a couple of conversations, mostly about the release of info to the WSJ. Not sure if I would consider that a firable offense with Scott Pruitt still going strong but whatever.

It does seem to punch some holes in the FBI conspiracy nonsense with McCabe and Comey basically testifying against each other, which I didn't know before.
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Old 16th April 2018, 11:28 AM   #2355
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Such a simple thing, but it's worth reminding everyone:

Why are conservatives so concerned with the thought that Comey or McCabe lied, but when Donald lies over and over again, welp...that's no big deal?
The official spokespersons are well trained, well oiled, well practiced talking points repeaters, truth and reality matter not.

For the Trump base, they simply don't hear "Trump lied". They only hear, "fake news".
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Old 16th April 2018, 11:31 AM   #2356
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
Not sure what to tell you. I did it with no problem with Google Chrome. Straight copypaste job.


OK, that's a little more clear. It does seem that McCabe was lying or dissembling in a couple of conversations, mostly about the release of info to the WSJ. Not sure if I would consider that a firable offense with Scott Pruitt still going strong but whatever.

It does seem to punch some holes in the FBI conspiracy nonsense with McCabe and Comey basically testifying against each other, which I didn't know before.
They were looking for a reason.
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Old 16th April 2018, 12:14 PM   #2357
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Not so sure that Whataboutism is worth "reminding" people of...
Bob the Coward is entitled to play that card with a straight face.

I haven't seen you accept the fact that Trump is fundamentally dishonest on all levels, from cheating on his golf score through adultery, to what looks like money laundering and conspiring with enemies of the US.

I'll grant that you might disagree with the last one, but the rest are pretty well documented.
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Old 16th April 2018, 12:53 PM   #2358
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Bob the Coward is entitled to play that card with a straight face.

I haven't seen you accept the fact that Trump is fundamentally dishonest on all levels, from cheating on his golf score through adultery, to what looks like money laundering and conspiring with enemies of the US.

I'll grant that you might disagree with the last one, but the rest are pretty well documented.
More to the point: I haven't seen you accept the fact that McCabe is fundamentally dishonest on all levels, from half assing the Clinton investigations to lying under oath to sitting on new explosive evidence.
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Old 16th April 2018, 01:30 PM   #2359
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
From WaPo:



Trump is not proposing that he or Cohen has the last word.

I'm not defending this suggestion, but it's not as bad as people are making it out to be.
"Hand over all of the evidence to me, and I promise I will give you all of it back. Not just the stuff I want you to see. I'll even pinkie swear."

Trump has no dignity, and has given no reason to be trusted at all. Maybe if there were redundant backups of all of that information then I wouldn't have a problem. Till then, nope.
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Old 16th April 2018, 01:34 PM   #2360
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
More to the point: I haven't seen you accept the fact that McCabe is fundamentally dishonest on all levels, from half assing the Clinton investigations to lying under oath to sitting on new explosive evidence.
McCabe was fired for lying, therefore we should impeach Trump for lying.

Deal?
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