|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
![]() |
#81 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 42,254
|
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#82 |
Good of the Fods
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,430
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#83 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 42,254
|
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#84 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,895
|
Whereas the Russian media: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43330498
... joke in a not-at-all-sinister way about how unhealthy it is to be a traitor, especially if you go to live in the UK where mysterious accidents seem to befall you. Or complain that it's mere hysteria to imagine that out-of-favour Russians in Britain being poisoned by extremely exotic substances might not be mere coincidence or might have any link back to Russia. There are probably any number of innocent explanations for Russians overseas being poisoned by rare radionuclides and nerve toxins. It's just the Russian equivalent of a Spinal Tap drummer's bizarre gardening accident. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#85 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,711
|
|
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#86 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 4,413
|
|
__________________
Freedom you all want, you want freedom. Why then do you haggle over a more or less? Freedom can only be the whole of freedom; a piece of freedom is not freedom. You despair of the possibility of obtaining the whole of freedom, freedom from everything - yes, you consider it insanity even to wish this? - Well, then leave off chasing after the phantom, and spend your pains on something better than the - unattainable. - Max Stirner |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#87 |
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 39,869
|
I just looked at the papers in our break room, and both the Times and the Telegraph used 'Policeman' in their headlines for the story (though not in the body of the reports).
ETA: Something about the way the reports I heard were being worded caught my attention; I wonder if they'd have been so careful if it had been a man. |
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#88 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,895
|
I don't know why the radio news reports I heard kept the story gender neutral but had begun to suppose it was because it might have uniquely identified the officer concerned to her local area. Maybe it was the police who requested that. The headlines would presumably be written by a sub-editor who didn't know more than the written article they were presented with and also assumed a male officer.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#89 |
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 39,869
|
Hmm, Ambrosia needs to check their sources.
![]() https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ripal-improves |
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#90 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,895
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#91 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66,263
|
The pattern of others affected suggests contact, not ingestion. As for airborne, unless it was an agent on clothing which let off fumes that were inhaled, the pattern doesn't quite fit but is possible.
An officer might take a pulse. They might try to position a head so as to open an airway. They might reach in a pocket for an ID. It's possible that with those or similar actions a vaporized substance on clothing, or a substance on the victims' hands fits the scenario. |
__________________
"Why do people say 'grow some balls'? Balls are weak and sensitive! If you really want to get tough, grow a vagina! Those things take a pounding!" — Betty White |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#92 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,390
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#93 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 15,724
|
b, as usually way ahead of the "news", has some interesting thoughts on the affair, including some based on a Telegraph article which make it seem as if the victim was close to the gang around Christopher Steele who made up the "Piss dossier", and might have tried to profit from his insider knowledge.
Assuming that this was a hit job at all, which is less silly than blaming Putin, but still speculation. |
__________________
Then They Came for the Globalists |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#94 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,895
|
Not especially ahead of the news as quite a bit of that has been overtaken already by other revelations. The authorities haven't named the agent used but they ruled out sarin and VX. Fentanyl wouldn't also have harmed the policeman who first tried to help the pair.
It is a fair point that the motive for attacking him is hardly likely to be his original spying. And whoever was pissed off with him used what is suggested to be a very exotic toxin. That article tries to join the dots to the Clinton campaign trying to hush him up rather than someone in Russia wanting to stop whatever he was currently up to or punish whatever he recently did. It doesn't seem very persuasive to me that whatever work Skripal might have done for Orbis could directly embarrass anyone high enough up the chain toward the Clinton campaign as to reach anyone with access to nerve agents, and if such a person wanted to hush things up, they wouldn't have chosen such a dramatic method of assassination. (That would just cause others involved to seek ways to protect themselves, either by spilling the beans immediately or preparing confessions to be revealed in event of their death.) This looks like someone sending a warning that if anyone crosses whichever line was crossed, they will come after you with no fear of investigators coming after them. The report that Skripal lost his temper in the restaurant just before they left suggests to me the daughter told him something he really didn't want to hear. If either recovers we might learn what that was. I gather the great risk now is that the nerve agent may have suppressed their breathing long enough to cause serious brain damage so I don't know what their prospects are of recovering. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#95 |
Good of the Fods
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,430
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#96 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 15,724
|
|
__________________
Then They Came for the Globalists |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#97 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,711
|
Focusing on the house as the location of poisoning, and that Officer Bailey was poisoned when he was a first responder entering the house...
Originally Posted by DailyMail
Does anyone here have any reports saying that Bailey attended to the victims at the bench? Or, was his involvement strictly limited to going into the house? |
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#98 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,895
|
Okay, I take that back. If the their clothes had somehow been contaminated with fentanyl powder, that might indeed have harmed a would-be rescuer. I guess we'll have to wait and see after all.
Though looking at the scale and expertise of the deployment for investigation and decontamination, I'm still not putting any money on fentanyl being the substance used. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43344725 |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#99 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,711
|
Why are we discussing fentanyl when the police have already confirmed that the poison is a very rare nerve agent? Fentanyl would not be described as very rare or as a nerve agent.
|
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#100 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 42,254
|
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#101 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,895
|
Now that's curious. It makes more sense that a detective sergeant would be sent to check the home of someone in this situation rather than be called to assist people collapsed in the street, but it makes for an interesting timeline. It implies the pair might have been poisoned before they left home, but when both seem to have collapsed at about the same time, a slow-acting toxin seems unlikely.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#102 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,895
|
Indeed. The article CE linked to mentioned it, but it's hard to take the suggestion seriously. It looks to me like a rather desperate attempt to plant the idea the pair might have been poisoned by a substance they got hold of by themselves. It doesn't fit the bill as a rare nerve agent. You wouldn't call it rare compared to sarin or VX.
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#103 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,711
|
The very strange behavior and loud yelling at the restaurant may have been some of the first symptoms of a poisoning that happened back at the house.
|
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#104 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,895
|
Feasibly, yes, though if he realised he'd been poisoned I imagine he'd have called for help.
It seems less likely they could each have been dosed with just the right amount of a slow-acting toxin to visit a pub, and then a restaurant and then both collapse at about the same time. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#105 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 15,724
|
Actually the article brings it up because CNN reported that "Local media had on Monday reported the substance found at the scene to be similar to fentanyl: a lethally strong opioid available even on Salisbury's soporific streets", as quoted and sourced there. edit: Meanwhile the article was updated to include this quote from The Independent (website seems to be unavailable atm) which states:
Originally Posted by The Independent
|
__________________
Then They Came for the Globalists |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#106 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,711
|
Why or how would he realize or even imagine that he had been poisoned if it occurred by way of covert agency?
There is the possibility that he was poisoned at the house and then symptoms began to develop while he is eating at the restaurant. He imagines that these symptoms are actually being caused by the food he is eating and so he becomes aggressively belligerent and loud and demands the check right away. This nerve agent could initially cause psychological and physical symptoms. The advancing effects of the poison may have compelled him to believe that he had just eaten the worst food he had ever eaten in his life.
Quote:
|
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#107 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,895
|
Indeed. But before that article was published it had already been announced that the toxin used was a rare nerve agent. So it appeared to me that its referring back to that early speculation about opioids was an effort to keep alive the notion that the pair might have poisoned themselves with street drugs obtained locally, after that had realistically been ruled out.
Do you think it likely? |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#108 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 15,724
|
|
__________________
Then They Came for the Globalists |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#109 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,237
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#110 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 42,254
|
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#111 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 15,724
|
|
__________________
Then They Came for the Globalists |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#112 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 15,724
|
|
__________________
Then They Came for the Globalists |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#113 |
Show me the monkey!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,711
|
The police certainly aren't behaving as if this is an accidental overdose of a recreational opioid. No, not acting or talking like that at all.
|
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#114 |
Good of the Fods
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,430
|
CNN wins the award for worst use of cliched alliteration in a space filling article.
You can get pretty much any drugs you like here. Same as any other city in the UK. If that's what local media are reporting then they are as guilty of making **** up as CNN are. It wasn't Fentanyl, it's been identified and it's a rare nerve agent. they have drafted in more military people trained in decontamination who are walking around in full on Biohazard regalia. They're not going to do that for a bog standard opiod. The pair were poisoned in their home with whatever it was, presumably the plan was for them to take ill quickly and die at home. Were it not for the fact that Porton Down is very close by so that whatever the poison was could be identified quickly then they would be dead already. Had they not gone out for the evening they'd be dead now and might not yet have been discovered. The police officer who was seriously ill was taken ill after attending the house, and because the woman police officer who first attended them was vomited on and was not taken seriously ill then we can surmise that it wasn't something that was ingested and that they were poisoned while at home. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#115 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,237
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#116 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 1,175
|
Do keep in mind in 1999, Prime Minister Putin attended an APEC Summit in New Zealand, when the second bombing was happening in Moscow.
I don't think I have to say much more about that. Putin doesn't have to behave a certain way for anything as long as he can keep the most henious things under wraps. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#117 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,390
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#118 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 15,724
|
|
__________________
Then They Came for the Globalists |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#119 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 17,228
|
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#120 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 42,254
|
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | |
|
|