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Old 13th March 2018, 04:02 AM   #161
Henri McPhee
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Corbyn seems to be talking sense about all this. That formula for Novichok is on the internet. It's more likely that it was done by Turkey, or Ukraine, or dare I say Israel, or rogues in Russia, or Nikki Haley at the UN, just before the Russian presidential elections and football World Cup, and the Russian military events in Syria which don't please many people. They would have the technical know-how. If it was done by Putin he would have been stupid and I don't think he is stupid.

I agree that the UK government should take a firm line with regard to radioactive and nerve agent assassinations. The House of Commons have been big soft things with regard to the Russian Mafia, and corrupt Russian businessmen operating in London, and tax evasion in the Cayman Islands and Bank of Belize. That doesn't mean that the Russians have no right to their own opinion about elections in Europe, or America, or that RT should be closed down.
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Old 13th March 2018, 04:14 AM   #162
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so evidence of guilt is actually evidence of innocence?

that sounds plausible...
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Old 13th March 2018, 04:37 AM   #163
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I don't see why we don't just cut off all communication with Russia. They are a corrupt terrorist state and have little benefit to the UK. We should freeze all Russian accounts, kick out the oligarchs, the diplomats and anybody who has connection with the Russian government (after warning Britons in Russia first, of course) and we should certainly not go ahead with the World Cup. We should ban all Russian immigration aside from on humanitarian grounds. It's absurd that Russian can carry out repeated acts of terrorism on the UK mainland with essentially no reaction from the UK government. I bet Putin is laughing his tiny Action Man cock off right now.
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Old 13th March 2018, 05:33 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I don't see why we don't just cut off all communication with Russia. They are a corrupt terrorist state and have little benefit to the UK ...
How about the corrupt terrorist states - and similar bad guys - that do provide significant benefit to the UK?

p.s. I recalled the opening credits of 'Have I Got News For You' and it turns out that not that much Russian gas fuels the UK. No doubt we could source it elsewhere.
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Old 13th March 2018, 05:39 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Corbyn seems to be talking sense about all this. That formula for Novichok is on the internet. It's more likely that it was done by Turkey, or Ukraine, or dare I say Israel, or rogues in Russia, or Nikki Haley at the UN, just before the Russian presidential elections and football World Cup, and the Russian military events in Syria which don't please many people. They would have the technical know-how. If it was done by Putin he would have been stupid and I don't think he is stupid.
Of course, Nikki Haley made it in her spare time in her garden shed.

From another WaPo article:
Quote:
I spoke to one scientist, Andrei Zheleznyakov, who had been exposed to a minute amount of Novichok in a lab accident five years prior. He staggered out after the mishap, his vision, as I wrote, “seared by brilliant colors and hallucinations.” Zheleznyakov never fully recovered, and he died shortly after I interviewed him.
May I suggest you google the phrase "tickling the dragon's tail", and read the story of accomplished chemist Karen Wetterhahn?
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Old 13th March 2018, 05:58 AM   #166
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Imagine the blushes if it turns out not to have been Russia at all. I can only presume the UK authorities have some pretty firm evidence that it was.
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Old 13th March 2018, 07:29 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by BBC News
Prime Minister Theresa May told the Commons on Monday that the poison used in the attack was a military-grade nerve agent developed by Russia. She said it was part of a group of nerve agents known as Novichok.

"Either this was a direct action by the Russian state against our country, or the Russian government lost control of its potentially catastrophically damaging nerve agent and allowed it to get into the hands of others," she said.

Mrs May said the Foreign Office had summoned Russia's ambassador to "explain which of these two possibilities it is".

She warned that if there was no "credible response" by the end of Tuesday, the UK would conclude there has been an "unlawful use of force" by Moscow...

And there it is.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43381880
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Old 13th March 2018, 07:33 AM   #168
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What are Novichok nerve agents and what do they do?

Originally Posted by BBC News
Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia remain critically ill after the attempted murder in Salisbury on 4 March.

The chemical was identified by experts at the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL) at Porton Down.

So what do we know about this group of military-grade nerve agents?...
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43377698
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Old 13th March 2018, 07:43 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
How about the corrupt terrorist states - and similar bad guys - that do provide significant benefit to the UK?
Each case should be assessed on its merits. In relation to the Saudis, who are the spawn of the West, I've said before we should have no dealings with them whatsoever, then they can go back to fishing and herding goats as opposed to spreading terrorism across the world on the back of Western money.
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Old 13th March 2018, 08:56 AM   #170
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Well who would have thought Rex Tillerson's career as Secretary of State would be the first casualty of this? Fired on twitter after he had the nerve to state the obvious.
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Old 13th March 2018, 09:45 AM   #171
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Intelligent life spotted in Salisbury: Sergei Skripal, Salisbury and the Dangerously Hysterical Response of the British Government

Originally Posted by Rob Slane
Readers of this blog may be aware that I happen to live in the rather lovely city of Salisbury [...]

What I would like to comment on, though, is what can only be described as the irrational, hysterical and frankly propagandistic reaction of the British media and Government. Within hours of the incident, before any of the essential facts can have been known to them, many of them came out and either implicitly or explicitly pointed the finger at the Kremlin and Vladimir Putin as having ordered the assassination.

And today, the British Prime Minister, Theresa May, after just one week of what is bound to be an intensely complex investigation, in which the authorities have not yet ascertained where, when and how the poison was administered, went to the House of Commons to blame the incident on a sovereign state, reversing the burden of proof by informing the Government of Russia that it has 36 hours to effectively prove its innocence, or it will be assumed guilty.

I am thoroughly ashamed of the Government of my country and indeed Parliament (not for the first time, and probably not the last). Whether or not Mr Putin was behind the attack, this is simply not how a law-governed state goes about its business. The sheer speed at which fingers have been pointed, accusations made, and threats uttered, before any facts arose as to where, when and how the poison was administered, let alone who administered it, shows that as a nation we are closer to becoming the kind of state that we claim Mr Putin heads than we would like to imagine. [...]

Indeed.

Lavrov has already stated that he doesn't intend to further reply to the "nonsense" of this "proof you didn't do it or else". While his speaker called it a "circus show" and advised that the Brits should tell the world the results of earlier inquiries before "making up new fairy tales".

Not that any true believer would be interested in these statements, but ftr.
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Old 13th March 2018, 09:55 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Imagine the blushes if it turns out not to have been Russia at all. I can only presume the UK authorities have some pretty firm evidence that it was.
There needs to be one or two whistleblowers with regard to this matter to elicit the truth, which the Americans in particular seem to hate. What about Assange? The police have to be told who did it. Detection in the Sherlock Holmes sense does not exist. The police just go around asking questions, and operate on information received, often with tunnel vision. The public and the media are apt to jump to conclusions. Criminals often pin the blame on other people. That Litvinenko business was a mistake by Putin, which has come back to cause him political embarrassment now. Russian courts are not British courts.
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Old 13th March 2018, 09:56 AM   #173
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A highly sophisticated military nerve agent, in other words a chemical WMD, was used on UK soil.
Hell yeah the government should get hysterical about this - it's the only appropriate response.
And is is hilarious that some blogger thinks the government doesn't have the data to make a verdict, just because it hasn't made it public: this is a matter of national security.
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Old 13th March 2018, 10:09 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There needs to be one or two whistleblowers with regard to this matter to elicit the truth[1], which the Americans in particular seem to hate[2]. What about Assange?[3] The police have to be told who did it[4]. Detection in the Sherlock Holmes sense does not exist.[5] The police just go around asking questions, and operate on information received, often with tunnel vision.[6] The public and the media are apt to jump to conclusions[7]. Criminals often pin the blame on other people[8]. That Litvinenko business was a mistake by Putin, which has come back to cause him political embarrassment now. [9]Russian courts are not British courts.[10]
I have no idea what you are trying to say.

  1. Why whistleblowers? What about forensic investigation?
  2. What evidence do you have for Americans hating the truth?
  3. What about Assange? He's utterly irrelevant to this. What about the Easter Bunny?
  4. What does this mean?
  5. Generally true, but irrelevant
  6. Arguable in some situations, but pretty irrelevant to this.
  7. True but irrelevant in this case
  8. True but irrelevant in this case - criminals often deny their crimes as well
  9. What adverse consequences did Putin suffer as a result
  10. True but irrelevant in this case






Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
A highly sophisticated military nerve agent, in other words a chemical WMD, was used on UK soil.
Hell yeah the government should get hysterical about this - it's the only appropriate response.
And is is hilarious that some blogger thinks the government doesn't have the data to make a verdict, just because it hasn't made it public: this is a matter of national security.

Whilst this makes perfect sense
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Old 13th March 2018, 10:12 AM   #175
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https://www.politico.eu/article/niko...ead-in-london/

Quote:
Russian exile found dead in London
Nikolai Glushkov had close to ties to Boris Berezovsky.

By ZACH SAYER 3/13/18, 5:44 PM CET Updated 3/13/18, 5:52 PM CET
Nikolai Glushkov, a Russian exile and former close associate of the late oligarch Boris Berezovsky, was found dead in his London home Monday night, the Telegraph reported.

The death of Glushkov, who worked for Berezovsky’s car company as well as Russian state airline Aeroflot in the 1990s, was confirmed by his lawyer on Russia’s Business FM radio. No cause of death was given
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Last edited by jimbob; 13th March 2018 at 10:12 AM. Reason: Missing "R"
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Old 13th March 2018, 10:12 AM   #176
Henri McPhee
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
A highly sophisticated military nerve agent, in other words a chemical WMD, was used on UK soil.
Hell yeah the government should get hysterical about this - it's the only appropriate response.
And is is hilarious that some blogger thinks the government doesn't have the data to make a verdict, just because it hasn't made it public: this is a matter of national security.
The government does not have conclusive evidence, and the perpetrators hope the government never will have conclusive evidence, so that the Russians can be blamed for it, and RT closed down. It could be the perfect crime, unless it's a monumental misjudgement by Putin. 'Highly likely' is an opinion not a fact.

When Russia held the Winter Olympics in Sochi, Putin went to great trouble to dispense with controversial legal cases, like imprisoned Greenpeace people, and that imprisoned Russian oligarch. He doesn't want political embarrassment, or controversy, now and talk of boycotts of the football World Cup in Russia to give him a headache.

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Old 13th March 2018, 10:14 AM   #177
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That nerve agent could bring London to its knees.
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Old 13th March 2018, 10:21 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
A highly sophisticated military nerve agent, in other words a chemical WMD, was used on UK soil.
Hell yeah the government should get hysterical about this - it's the only appropriate response.
And is is hilarious that some blogger thinks the government doesn't have the data to make a verdict, just because it hasn't made it public: this is a matter of national security.
On his About page he begins with

Quote:
Rob Slane dwells in the Country Formerly Known as Great Britain, now known as The Quagmire.
then continues to describe how's he is a beacon of Christian morality in the 'nasty, nihilistic, intolerant' country of Great Britain.

So sure, he sounds like a reasonable, unbiased individual, the like of which is perfectly placed to make balanced comment on issues of national security, international politics and the technical procedures of Porton Down.

Sorry, my mistake, I meant to say, "He's a complete anus who nobody in their right minds would take seriously."
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Old 13th March 2018, 10:22 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
On his About page he begins with



then continues to describe how's he is a beacon of Christian morality in the 'nasty, nihilistic, intolerant' country of Great Britain.

So sure, he sounds like a reasonable, unbiased individual, the like of which is perfectly placed to make balanced comment on issues of national security, international politics and the technical procedures of Porton Down.

Sorry, my mistake, I meant to say, "He's a complete anus who nobody in their right minds would take seriously."
Childlike Empress seems to think his views are worth promoting.
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Old 13th March 2018, 10:39 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That nerve agent could bring London to its knees.

While in Salisbury it injures three people.
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Old 13th March 2018, 10:56 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post

When Russia held the Winter Olympics in Sochi, Putin went to great trouble to dispense with controversial legal cases, like imprisoned Greenpeace people, and that imprisoned Russian oligarch. He doesn't want political embarrassment, or controversy, now and talk of boycotts of the football World Cup in Russia to give him a headache.
However there is an election at the weekend, and Putin wants to show he's a real strong Russian manly man, who won't hesitate to knock-off a few enemies of the state...
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Old 13th March 2018, 11:02 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
While in Salisbury it injures three people.
And your point is ?
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Old 13th March 2018, 12:44 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
The government does not have conclusive evidence, and the perpetrators hope the government never will have conclusive evidence, so that the Russians can be blamed for it, and RT closed down.
Really? That's the end-game for releasing a military-grade nerve agent in public? Whatever next? A small tactical nuke to end the UK circulation of Pravda?
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Old 13th March 2018, 01:15 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well who would have thought Rex Tillerson's career as Secretary of State would be the first casualty of this? Fired on twitter after he had the nerve to state the obvious.
Called Trump a ‘****ing moron’ and was not fired, spoke out against Russia and was fired the next day.
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Old 13th March 2018, 01:18 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Really? That's the end-game for releasing a military-grade nerve agent in public? Whatever next? A small tactical nuke to end the UK circulation of Pravda?
Hmm I have to wonder what are industrial grade nerve agents or consumer grade nerve agents...
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Old 13th March 2018, 01:40 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hmm I have to wonder what are industrial grade nerve agents or consumer grade nerve agents...

lambda-cyhalothrin

AKA: Spectracide Triazicide


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Old 13th March 2018, 02:14 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Big scandal over similar chemicals in the UK decades ago.
Farmers and Shepherds getting ill after using them in sheep dips and spays.
Manufacturers denying responsibility and the Govt backing the manufacturers over the farmers.

One of my old school friends suffered nerve damage and long term illness directly connected with his work as an agricultural contractor.
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:37 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Big scandal over similar chemicals in the UK decades ago.
Farmers and Shepherds getting ill after using them in sheep dips and spays.
Manufacturers denying responsibility and the Govt backing the manufacturers over the farmers.

One of my old school friends suffered nerve damage and long term illness directly connected with his work as an agricultural contractor.
Indeed the organophosphate sheep dip was an under-reported scandal. An utterly cavalier r=approach to people's health when the issues had been understood - in my view similar in type to the asbestos scandals.
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:43 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
A highly sophisticated military nerve agent, in other words a chemical WMD, was used on UK soil.
Hell yeah the government should get hysterical about this - it's the only appropriate response.
And is is hilarious that some blogger thinks the government doesn't have the data to make a verdict, just because it hasn't made it public: this is a matter of national security.
Actually, I wouldn't want my government to become hysterical about it, that sounds very irrational. I would expect them to become very angry about it. But that's only mincing words.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hmm I have to wonder what are industrial grade nerve agents or consumer grade nerve agents...
Fipronil, you can get it from the flea collars for your dog. Or from Dutch eggs.
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:45 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Really? That's the end-game for releasing a military-grade nerve agent in public? Whatever next? A small tactical nuke to end the UK circulation of BBC-Pravda?
FTFY so that Henry understands what you're talking about. Or well, frankly, I don't even understand what Henry meant in the first place.
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Old 13th March 2018, 06:24 PM   #191
William Parcher
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The Nerve Agent Too Deadly to Use. Until Someone Did.

Originally Posted by The New York Times
For nearly three decades, since a Soviet whistle-blower told the world of its existence, the nerve agent Novichok has scared American weapons experts. The Pentagon sent teams to destroy abandoned laboratories that once produced the chemical, believed to be orders of magnitude more lethal than sarin or VX.

There was no sign of it ever being used. Until last week.

Now, Britons are taking in the disquieting information that a Novichok nerve agent, a weapon invented for use against NATO troops, was released in the quiet town of Salisbury, its target a former Russian spy named Sergei V. Skripal. Mr. Skripal and his daughter, Yulia, collapsed onto a bench in a catatonic state on March 4, and remain hospitalized, in critical condition.

Britain’s Home Ministry on Tuesday indicated that it viewed state-sponsored violence by Moscow as a larger problem, announcing that it would scrutinize a series of suspicious deaths of Russians on British soil. Home Minister Amber Rudd said the police and MI5, Britain’s domestic security agency, would review 14 cases cataloged last year in an investigation by BuzzFeed. The British police also announced an investigation into the death on Monday of Nikolai Glushkov, a close associate of one of Mr. Putin’s most prominent foes.

In interviews, chemical weapons experts said it was possible that Novichok nerve agents had been used before on Kremlin targets in Britain, but had escaped detection.

Exposure, either by inhalation or through the skin, leads to muscle spasms, secretion of fluid into the lungs and organ failure, sometimes accompanied by foaming at the mouth. But if the victim has already died, experts said, the police could easily mistake the cause of death for a simple heart attack...
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/03/1...poisoning.html
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Old 13th March 2018, 07:11 PM   #192
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The Nerve Agent Too Deadly to Use. Until Someone Did. And It Failed To Kill Anyone.
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Old 13th March 2018, 07:12 PM   #193
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Imagine just for a second if Edward Snowden or Julian Assange had been deathly ill a few hours/days after contact with a shady American double agent, and there was evidence that the stuff had been all over the agent's hotel and he made a run for it immediately after contact.

RT talking heads EXPLODING in all directions . Henry McPhee and Childlike Empress call for a new investigation and brand all of you terrorists. We may need to clean up the entire subforum in the aftermath of a ishstorm of an event.
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Old 13th March 2018, 07:50 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hmm I have to wonder what are industrial grade nerve agents or consumer grade nerve agents...
Well all cholinesterase inhibitors are nerve agents; so your consumer grade would be your Raid/Ortho wasp killers and similar insecticides, for instance.
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Old 13th March 2018, 08:44 PM   #195
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Statement by Permanent Representative of the Russian Federation to the OPCW, Ambassador Alexander Shulgin, at the 87th session of the OPCW Executive Council on the chemical incident in Salisbury, The Hague, March 13, 2018

Originally Posted by Alexander Shulgin
Mr Chairperson,

In connection with the vicious attacks launched by British officials in London, as well as the statement by the head of the British delegation to the OPCW with regard to Russia concerning the suspicious story of two persons poisoned with a toxic agent in Salisbury, we would like to state the following.

The British authorities’ unfounded accusations of Russia’s alleged involvement in using poisonous agents on their territory are absolutely unacceptable. Our British colleagues should recall that Russia and the United Kingdom are members of the OPCW which is one of the most successful and effective disarmament and non-proliferation mechanisms. We call upon them to abandon the language of ultimatums and threats and return to the legal framework of the chemical convention, which makes it possible to resolve this kind of situation.

If London does have serious reasons to suspect Russia of violating the CWC - and the statement read by distinguished Ambassador Peter Wilson indicates directly that this is so - we suggest that Britain immediately avail itself of the procedures provided for by paragraph 2 of Article 9 of the CWC. They make it possible, on a bilateral basis, to officially contact us for clarifications regarding any issues that raise doubts or concerns.

We would also like to emphasise that such clarifications under the Convention are provided to the requesting member state as soon as possible, but in any case no later than 10 days following receipt of the request. As such, the ultimatum’s demand that information be provided immediately, by the end of today, is absolutely unacceptable.

Our British colleagues should save their propaganda fervour and slogans for their unenlightened domestic audience, where perhaps they will have some effect. Here, within the walls of a specialised international organisation, such as the OPCW, one must use facts and nothing but the facts. Stop fomenting hysteria, go ahead and officially formalise your request to begin consultations with us in order to clarify the situation. A fair warning, we will require material evidence of the alleged Russian trace in this high-profile case. Britain’s allegations that they have everything, and their world-famous scientists have irrefutable data, but they will not give us anything, will not be taken into account. For us, this will mean that London has nothing substantial to show, and all its loud accusations are nothing but fiction and another instance of the dirty information war being waged on Russia. Sooner or later, they will have to be held accountable for their lies.

In addition, in this particular case, it would be legitimate for the British side to seek assistance from the OPCW Technical Secretariat in conducting an independent laboratory analysis of the available samples that allegedly show traces of nerve agents in Salisbury.

Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

We ask you to circulate this statement as an official document of the 87th session of the OPCW's Executive Council and post it on the Organisation’s external server.

[This is an official document in the public domain and reprinted here in full to benefit people who don't want to visit the website of the Russian foreign ministry out of fear of consequences of that electronic communication being monitored by both the Russian and their own governments. (as of now, the statement has not been made available on the OPCW website as requested, contrary to the ones by Peter Wilson and representatives from other five star countries like Bangladesh and Cuba)]
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Old 13th March 2018, 09:44 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Statement by Permanent Representative of the Russian Federation to the OPCW, Ambassador Alexander Shulgin, at the 87th session of the OPCW Executive Council on the chemical incident in Salisbury, The Hague, March 13, 2018




[This is an official document in the public domain and reprinted here in full to benefit people who don't want to visit the website of the Russian foreign ministry out of fear of consequences of that electronic communication being monitored by both the Russian and their own governments. (as of now, the statement has not been made available on the OPCW website as requested, contrary to the ones by Peter Wilson and representatives from other five star countries like Bangladesh and Cuba)]
But they would say that wouldn't they?

And as we know from past incidents that Russia doesn't give a flying **** about the international rule of law, and thinks its just fine to assassinate ex spies and other political undesirables on foreign soil, even using signature weapons that only serve to show how little Russia cares about what others think, it is right of us to consider such words to be the self serving lies and propaganda that they are.


I am betting that this will end up with OPCW investigation as well - its early days. Of course when that investigation confirms the UK investigation Russia will have a whole new set of propaganda (probably attacking OPCW) for you to defend.
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Old 13th March 2018, 10:28 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by mifune View Post
But they would say that wouldn't they?

They obviously do. But you would check if what they say about the mechanisms that provide incident resolution through this organization is true, wouldn't you?
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Old 13th March 2018, 11:09 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by mifune View Post
And as we know from past incidents that Russia doesn't give a flying **** about the international rule of law, and thinks its just fine to assassinate ex spies and other political undesirables on foreign soil, even using signature weapons that only serve to show how little Russia cares about what others think, it is right of us to consider such words to be the self serving lies and propaganda that they are.
Russia provided Russian-backed rebels in Ukraine with a Buk missile platform which the incompetent rebels used to accidentally shoot down a civilian passenger airliner killing 298 innocent people, allowed the missile platform to be quickly smuggled back into Russia where it could be made inaccessible to any investigation, and then vetoed a UN Security Council resolution to establish a multinational tribunal to prosecute the crime. Yes, they literally do not care. Even their OPCW representative's statement pretending to be "offended" at the UK's assertions regarding the assassination of the spy is half-hearted theatre at best. They do not care. They don't play by the rules the rest of the world agrees to follow, and they do not care what anyone thinks about it.
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Last edited by Checkmite; 13th March 2018 at 11:12 PM.
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Old 14th March 2018, 02:46 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hmm I have to wonder what are industrial grade nerve agents or consumer grade nerve agents...
I said "military-grade." There's a difference between something complex produced with all the resources of a state for its military, and something relatively simple than can be cooked up in a clandestine lab. Cf the difference between C4 or Semtex, and fertiliser and fuel oil (notwithstanding the fact that ANFO is produced commercially).
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Old 14th March 2018, 02:49 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
FTFY so that Henry understands what you're talking about. Or well, frankly, I don't even understand what Henry meant in the first place.
It's just one of his "things," which he couldn't adequately explain when I queried it some time ago.
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