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#321 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,897
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Not sure about that. The death of a sixty-something man in his own home might well be put down as whichever mundane cause it most closely matched; heart attack or whatever, but the simultaneous deaths of the man and his thirty-something daughter, not so much.
And when the people who enter his home start falling ill too... |
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#322 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,548
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Corbyn is right to suggest that we should test the evidence. At the moment it's like all these religious strange beliefs with no facts or evidence and just jumping to conclusions. These silly journalists on TV are saying that this would never have happened if we had intervened earlier on behalf of the Syrian head choppers and beyond, and supported Manchester and London bombers, and that we should now have a cyber war with Russia!
It looks now as though Russia will now ban the importation of Kettle crisps to Russia, and stop the export of natural gas to the UK during cold snaps. Personally, I'm a great believer in sound trade, but I suppose that's too logical for the House of Commons. I have never understood why there has to be wars and sanctions over the construction of oil and gas pipelines. I agree that the Arabs have never wanted a peaceful settlement, but neither have the Jews. There are people in the Tory party who have spoken to Russians in the past and have been involved in Russian business. As a citizen of Salisbury has recently said it's all outside of their understanding. These MI6 goons are not much help by saying that Corbyn is not up to the job of Prime Minister, and that RT should be closed down. |
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#323 |
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 22,408
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"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut |
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#324 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 38,620
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Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes |
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#325 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 38,620
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Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes |
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#326 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,968
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#327 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,935
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"I am a liar as well as a dwarf!" |
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#328 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,157
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Really?
When do you think the UK informed the OPCW?
Quote:
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#329 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,399
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#330 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 4,413
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With regards to the politics victimhood thats central to Russian propaganda, this has its roots in the collapse of the Soviet Union.
When it was falling apart two main narratives arose: the "liberal nationalist" and the "authoritarian imperialist". The former viewed Russia as being no different from any other union republic. Russians were as much victims as the Estonians. This was popular at first when people were optimistic of change. The latter viewed Russia as the centre of the Soviet union. In fact the Soviet Union was just a continuation of the Russian empire. It was glorious. Russia was a standard and model for others. It was only because traitors like Gorbachev invited weakness that the union fell apart. Because the west see the Soviet Union as a villain that was defeated the imperialists see this no differently from the west cheering the defeat of this is itself. This indignity must be avenged. The reactionary authoritarianism that now is effectively state ideology has now regards for human rights and freedom. It's a dog eat dog world, both in and between societies. Might makes right. Liberal tolerance for sodomites, such effimant men and other deviants is a sign of weakness. Weakness invites death, as it did when Gorbachev tolerated dissidents. |
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Freedom you all want, you want freedom. Why then do you haggle over a more or less? Freedom can only be the whole of freedom; a piece of freedom is not freedom. You despair of the possibility of obtaining the whole of freedom, freedom from everything - yes, you consider it insanity even to wish this? - Well, then leave off chasing after the phantom, and spend your pains on something better than the - unattainable. - Max Stirner |
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#331 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 80,918
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I wish I knew how to quit you |
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#332 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 80,918
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I wish I knew how to quit you |
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#333 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 80,918
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Sorry but I disagree. Russia's response would have been the same no matter what procedures we followed. If found next to the bodies there was a bottle marked with crossbones and skull with "made in Russia by V Putin" with Putin's fingerprints and DNA on it Russia would be issuing the same crap.
Who is going to be fooled by Russia in this matter that don't want to be fooled? |
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#334 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 18,558
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The Uzbek site was not a production site, but a test site. It was cleaned up with American help, during the time that Craig Murray was UK ambassador to Uzbekistan.
The production site was in Shikhany, Saratov Oblast, Russia, which until today, is the Russian equivalent of Porton Down, and has never been closed down. That is also the site where the Russian chemists developed novichoks in the first place. The possibility that someone smuggled some out of the Uzbek test site, 25 years ago before the cleanup, and that it still is stable (*), seems to be a very remote one. From the Guardian:
Quote:
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Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa" "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf |
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#335 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,237
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#336 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,237
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Rather amusingly, it looks like Ripon unilaterally assumed itself to be a city in 1836 when bits of the dioceses of York and Chester were hived off to create a new one. It only officially became a city in 1865, while at the time Leeds - within the Ripon diocese - was still a town. These things be complicated...
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#337 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,913
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It is clear to me the MOSSAD was responsible for this attempted assassination. Once again they achieved a false-flag attack as they did in 2001. (see "The Anthrax Mystery: Solved") Their motive was to overthrow and isolate the Putin regime. They are still upset over Putin kicking out all the Jewish oligarchs. The Jews still dream of ruling Russia.
The nerve agent came from Ness Ziona, Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel...gical_Research |
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#338 |
Misanthrope of the Mountains
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 23,322
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It is clear to me that this was obviously the work of a robot assassin from the future that may look Austrian or very Robert Patricky.
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"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
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#339 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,897
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#340 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,407
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Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 |
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#341 |
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 22,408
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"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut |
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#342 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,100
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"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi Wollen owns the stage |
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#343 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 23,230
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#344 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,157
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#345 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 15,399
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On the moors near Barnard Castle is a site that in WW2 was a POW camp. After the war it was used to store all the German Chemical Weapons that were rounded up. This included Nerve gas.
It wasn't actually finally cleared and disposed of until just a few years ago. All the buildings and sheds etc were demolished and shipped away foe careful disposal in sealed containers by men in Hazmat suits. The site is still off limits with signs warning of the hazard. It won't be completely safe for a long time yet. |
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#346 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 7,237
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BBC News: Murder inquiry over Russian's London death (breaking)
"UK police launch murder investigation after death of Russian businessman Nikolai Glushkov in south-west London." |
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#347 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,548
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I do have my doubts, and very little confidence, in that new sixth form college kid defence minister proposing anthrax vaccines for the soldiers. There is no real proof yet either that Putin wants to restore the old Soviet administrations, as this Toryboy seems to think. These doctor-like people have never come up with an explanation for Gulf war syndrome, which is real, and very unfair on the soldiers and their families affected, both in Britain and America:
https://www.naturodoc.com/library/pu...ax_vaccine.htm |
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#348 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,192
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Why is it a bad analogy? The nerve agent is Russian in origin, no other nation or orginization is known to have produced or procured it. The U.K. Asked Moscow for any reason it might have ended up in the hands of any other organization or national agency. The result was silence. Putin gave a giant middle finger to the civilized world.
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'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard |
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#349 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,548
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Putin did say in the initial investigation that he was willing to participate in the investigation. This was immediately rejected and ignored by the British. Part of the trouble is the lack of extradition agreements with countries like Russia. There is an extradition agreement between the UK and America but that has been proved controversial in several cases. British people have been extradited to America, but there is no question of any IRA murderers being extradited to the UK from America.
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#350 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,476
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#351 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 138
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For all those saying the UK should have waited/should be waiting to make accusations, or shouldn't be "jumping to conclusions" - the problem is that that approach is exactly what Putin wants. And by waiting a few months/years for the thorough and full investigation first the UK would lose all impetus from its Allies.
I do hope - and expect - that in due course a full and thorough investigation will be done and published. The UK actually has a pretty good track record on this front (in dramatic opposition to Russia who are the very model of a secret state). In this situation where Porton Down has positively indentified the agent as something only ever made and stored by Russia, and in light of what we know about the Russian state, eg. read the litvinenko report: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...der-litvinenko I think it is entirely reasonable to act now while the UK government can get maximum effect from its allies. |
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#352 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,548
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Putin isn't responsible for every Russian that gets murdered.
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#353 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 15,725
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Well, any would be a step in the right direction, preferably before laying blame. So if you have a time capsule, we can go back to the 4th and see if a less ridiculous story develops. b has put out another essential piece on the issue, going a bit into the timing as well. I agree with him that the most likely motive has something to do with Skripal's connection to Steele and the "piss dossier" on Trump. Depending on what you think about the credibility of that work, the motive could lay on "both sides" to make him stop using his insider knowledge. As I happen to understand that it is total rubbish, I think the old guy tried to benefit financially by blackmailing Steele and gang threatening to go public. Bad idea, they took him out with something much more profane and just made sure that some extravagant "samples" were delivered to Porton Down - maybe from own stock - to use the opportunity to start another "blame Putin" hysteria. |
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Then They Came for the Globalists |
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#354 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,476
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#355 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 17,238
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#356 |
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 22,408
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__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut |
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#357 |
Ewige Blumenkraft
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 15,725
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Then They Came for the Globalists |
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#358 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 138
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It is a stretch. Because there is absolutely no evidence that this happened. Nerve agents are not simple to handle or store. They are extremely dangerous and this particular one is extremely persistent. Very few states (let alone non state actors) would even have the infrastructure and training to handle this stuff without *********** it up. Deploying a nerve agent in this way, as an assassination weapon is not simple or easy. No one has any indication that any other state or organisation has this agent, and it makes quite a lot of sense given Russia's MO for them to still have some and we know they have the organisational capability of using it in an assassination on foreign soil. And we know they have done this sort of thing before not so long ago. Also for it to be a non russian actor then we are talking about a false flag operation. Thats not impossible but it does seem unlikely. Of who might want to conduct such a false flag who would risk it? If some pissant country or organisation does this and the UK finds out retribution might be pretty severe. Russia is big and dangerous enough to ride this out, others are not. Hopefully when the investigation is complete there will be strong evidence linking (presumably) russian individuals to the act. See the Litvinienko report for the sort of evidence the UK collected last time this happened. In an ideal world I would say wait and see the full results of the investigation. But that plays into Putin's hands and the end result would be a much damper response. So in the realpolitik of today I think it makes sense for the UK to start acting now. |
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#359 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 4,413
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What is a stretch is that someone would get a hold of it, safely keep it in storage for over two decades (how long of a shelf-life does it have?), discretely bring it into the UK and finally use it to assassinate a Russian double agent. It's far more likely that the British authorities just made up everything and that they are really fine at some safe-house.
I mean why the hell would anyone go through such an incredibly convoluted plot instead of just shooting him dead with a gun? Likewise if you wanted to be conspiratorial, "they" could probably stage it as suicide and not drawn any attention to themselves. |
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Freedom you all want, you want freedom. Why then do you haggle over a more or less? Freedom can only be the whole of freedom; a piece of freedom is not freedom. You despair of the possibility of obtaining the whole of freedom, freedom from everything - yes, you consider it insanity even to wish this? - Well, then leave off chasing after the phantom, and spend your pains on something better than the - unattainable. - Max Stirner |
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#360 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 17,238
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In the pipeline blogpost tgat covers some of this
http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline...lies-and-liars
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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