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Old 13th March 2018, 03:33 AM   #161
baron
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The BBC this morning introduced the Telford topic with the words "...committed by Pakistani and Bangladeshi men." The BBC no less, no equivocation, I guess the fact is so far beyond dispute it can no longer be withheld. Nazir Afzal, the lawyer who prosecuted the Rochdale cases, stated that this criminality was occurring in every town and city in the UK. Nevertheless, when the next 'scandal' breaks we'll still get half the country scratching their heads and pondering, "Gee, another gang, how shocking and unexpected!"
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Old 13th March 2018, 03:35 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
The BBC this morning introduced the Telford topic with the words "...committed by Pakistani and Bangladeshi men." The BBC no less, no equivocation, I guess the fact is so far beyond dispute it can no longer be withheld. Nazir Afzal, the lawyer who prosecuted the Rochdale cases, stated that this criminality was occurring in every town and city in the UK. Nevertheless, when the next 'scandal' breaks we'll still get half the country scratching their heads and pondering, "Gee, another gang, how shocking and unexpected!"


Not "Asian Grooming Gang"? Which always sounds to me like a rogue band of Japanese hair stylists?
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Old 13th March 2018, 03:51 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post


Not "Asian Grooming Gang"? Which always sounds to me like a rogue band of Japanese hair stylists?
During the interview the presenter auto-reverted to 'Asian' (the effort of accurate reporting sans obfuscation evidently could not maintained for more than a couple of minutes) but the autocued introduction told it as it is.

'Asian Grooming Gang' is a very clever piece of terminology. 'Asian' spreads the blame, inviting the argument that the vast majority of Asians do not behave in this way and thus diluting the accusation. 'Grooming' suggests the actions of a sly old pervert, plying a girl with sweets and promises of puppy interaction in the likely vain hope of a sexual encounter, as opposed to violent rape, forced prostitution and torture by criminals possessing not a shred of humanity. And 'Gang' tagged on the end further reduces the phrase almost to parody, a quirky group comprising a bunch of diverse and bumbling characters with unpleasant intentions towards kids. All rather distasteful, what O, and we British must make a stand against this silliness!
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Old 13th March 2018, 05:11 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
'Asian Grooming Gang' is a very clever piece of terminology. 'Asian' spreads the blame, inviting the argument that the vast majority of Asians do not behave in this way and thus diluting the accusation. 'Grooming' suggests the actions of a sly old pervert, plying a girl with sweets and promises of puppy interaction in the likely vain hope of a sexual encounter, as opposed to violent rape, forced prostitution and torture by criminals possessing not a shred of humanity. And 'Gang' tagged on the end further reduces the phrase almost to parody, a quirky group comprising a bunch of diverse and bumbling characters with unpleasant intentions towards kids. All rather distasteful, what O, and we British must make a stand against this silliness!
You're scraping the barrel a bit by trying to pretend that "grooming" and "gang" are not negative things. Still, what would you prefer? "Predatory Collective"?
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Old 13th March 2018, 05:13 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You're scraping the barrel a bit by trying to pretend that "grooming" and "gang" are not negative things.
Except I never said that.
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Old 13th March 2018, 05:38 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You're scraping the barrel a bit by trying to pretend that "grooming" and "gang" are not negative things. Still, what would you prefer? "Predatory Collective"?
They are negative. But these are soft words chosen for PR reasons.

The same reason that the label on sausage says 'haemoglobin' and not 'pig blood'.
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Old 13th March 2018, 05:41 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Except I never said that.
OK, "not negative enough," then.
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Old 13th March 2018, 05:43 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
They are negative. But these are soft words chosen for PR reasons.
You're kidding, right? They're terms used on a wide scale, especially by organisations that would have no wish to "soften" the practice.

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Old 13th March 2018, 08:11 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What you would hate isn't really relevant, though, is it? I mean, your preferences are three or four degrees of abstraction away from the question I asked.
when I say that I would hate to think something, I mean (as you surely know) that I think that it would be an unjust or preposterous law that recognised no difference between consensual sex and rape, and I am therefore certain that the Professor was giving her own opinion, not attributing an opinion to the law.

Consider; people accused of rape often argue: this was not rape, it was consensual. The law recognises that distinction, and so it must.
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Old 13th March 2018, 09:19 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
when I say that I would hate to think something, I mean (as you surely know) that I think that it would be an unjust or preposterous law that recognised no difference between consensual sex and rape, and I am therefore certain that the Professor was giving her own opinion, not attributing an opinion to the law.

Consider; people accused of rape often argue: this was not rape, it was consensual. The law recognises that distinction, and so it must.
This seems like an appeal to incredulity. And ill-founded incredulity, at that: We encounter unjust and preposterous laws all the time. Indeed, most modern legal systems include provisions for identifying and nullifying unjust and preposterous laws.

It seems to me that she could be arguing that the laws as written or interpreted effectively establish a consent-rape continuum, with a lot of unjust and preposterous gray area in the middle; instead of the clear binary distinction you and I would hope for in the law.

But without the original context for the passage you quote, it's hard to tell.

That said, I did manage to find the source for your quote (it wasn't the Mirror, as I had originally thought), and in that context I do tend towards your own conclusion.
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Old 13th March 2018, 09:27 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
They are negative. But these are soft words chosen for PR reasons.

The same reason that the label on sausage says 'haemoglobin' and not 'pig blood'.
Grooming is a clearly well understood term, it is illegal in the UK and is very negative. The children in these reports were first of all groomed, then the actual sexual assaults occurred.

Authorities are meant to be on the look out for signs of grooming to help stop it moving to the next stage.

I know no one at all who thinks grooming is anything but a completely despicable and terrible behaviour.
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Old 13th March 2018, 09:39 AM   #172
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I'm not sure what "grooming" brings to mind elsewhere but here in the UK it's associated with pedophiles and has a deeply sinister tone. "Gangs" likewise brings to mind an organised criminal enterprise, not something out of an Ealing comedy. I feel there might be a bit of seeing what you expect to see if you perceive a tone of downplaying the seriousness of what's happened.

"Asian" or "South Asian" is a bit of a language trap the UK has fallen into, wanting a word for people of Indian or Pakistani origin when you can't tell them apart and don't want to offend anyone. You can't win that one; you're going to offend someone.
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Old 13th March 2018, 10:08 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I'm not sure what "grooming" brings to mind elsewhere but here in the UK it's associated with pedophiles and has a deeply sinister tone.
Whether it has sinister overtones or not, it describes a behaviour that is orders of magnitude less damaging than the core criminal behaviour in which these gangs partake, e.g. rape, beating, kidnap, drugging, torture, arson and murder. The point is not whether the word has unpleasant connotations, it's whether it accurately describes the given behaviour, and in this case it clearly does not, any more than 'harrasser' is an appropriate term for someone who pesters a woman in a park then bludgeons her head in with a rock.

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
"Gangs" likewise brings to mind an organised criminal enterprise, not something out of an Ealing comedy. I feel there might be a bit of seeing what you expect to see if you perceive a tone of downplaying the seriousness of what's happened.
As I explained, it depends on the usage. It can be a lighthearted term (as evidenced by all the kids' shows with 'gang' in the title, or it can reference criminality with a variety of associations. A 'grooming gang', prior to the terminology being appropriated to describe these violent pimp rapists, put people in mind of a bunch of grubby old perverts who, whilst clearly distasteful, are not in danger of becoming Public Enemy No. 1. The term is used to sanitise the actual criminality of these people, and those who use the more accurate phraseology such as 'Pakistani rape gangs' are routinely labelled 'far right' and accused of indulging in 'hate speech'.

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
"Asian" or "South Asian" is a bit of a language trap the UK has fallen into, wanting a word for people of Indian or Pakistani origin when you can't tell them apart and don't want to offend anyone. You can't win that one; you're going to offend someone.
You won't find many Indians involved.
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Old 13th March 2018, 10:36 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
They are negative. But these are soft words chosen for PR reasons.

The same reason that the label on sausage says 'haemoglobin' and not 'pig blood'.
Got any alternatives that aren't "soft words" then? Perhaps corruption of youth? seduction of a minor?
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Old 13th March 2018, 10:46 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Got any alternatives that aren't "soft words" then? Perhaps corruption of youth? seduction of a minor?
Perhaps it would be more accurate to focus on the end result, rather than the preliminaries. Call them "rape gangs"?

In the USA, there was a serial killer called ""BTK" for bind-torture-kill. News anchors didn't describe him simply as "the guy who likes to tie up women".
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Old 13th March 2018, 11:21 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I understand that but they were no more vulnerable than "other" children and given how the word is bandied around in these reports I think it causes a terrible sense of "safety" for some people "Oh my child isn't vulnerable so they will be OK".
No one is saying that, that's your straw man.

While I applaud your attempt at egalitarianism, the fact is that some children are more vulnerable to sexual predators than others, due to their circumstances, and your commentary smacks of #AllChildrenMatter denialism.

It is an established fact that children and teens in certain circumstances -- unstable or abusive home lives, LGBTQ, severe poverty, marginalized communities, homeless, refugees, illicit drug users, illegal immigrants, mental illness, developmental disability, and so on -- are disproportionately vulnerable to predators. They are both easier to manipulate and more readily available to predators than children and teens from more stable and socially acceptable groups.

Denying this smacks of the same classism, elitism, and denialism you're accusing others of engaging in. It denies the need for allocating additional resources and time to prevent them from becoming victims in the first place. That #AllChildrenAreVulnerable attitude prevents government and society from recognizing and addressing the heightened needs and risks of these groups. It's dismissive and perpetuates the problem rather than solves it.

Yes, all children can be vulnerable to sexual predation; but for stable, middle-and-higher-class children of the dominant culture, that risk is predominantly from within the family, or from close family friends and acquaintances, most of whom are themselves authority figures, and use their authority to prey on children -- clergy, teachers, medical professionals, conservative politicians, and so on.

"Vulnerable" children are more likely to be targeted by strangers or others not well known to them, by gangs, by sociopaths, by traffickers. They are not well-served by denying that they are at greater risk than others. The degree and nature of the threat to them is significantly different. These are the children that the real bottom feeders target preferentially, 1) because as noted by myself and others, they're much easier to manipulate with promises of improved circumstances, or at least some temporary relief from their circumstances; 2) because they're less likely to have someone watching out of them, someone who will care enough or be secure enough to contact authorities should something untoward happen; and 3) because the authorities are less likely to care about them or make efforts to address the problem.

#AllChildrenAreVulnerable goes a long way to perpetuating number 3. I realize what you are trying to say, but you're going about it in entirely the wrong way, and perpetuating attitudes that exacerbate rather than help.
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Old 13th March 2018, 11:33 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Perhaps it would be more accurate to focus on the end result, rather than the preliminaries. Call them "rape gangs"?

But that's an emotionally-loaded term that brings an entirely different image to mind, one which is profoundly and dangerously misleading in this context.

This is not a case where children are being violently abducted and raped. This is a case where the overwhelming majority of victims are being manipulated over a substantial period of time,

That stereotype of "rape gangs" and violent child molesters has for a very long time obfuscated the true nature and scope of the problem, and made it less likely the victims would either feel secure enough to report their victimization, or be believed and when they did. "Well, no one put a gun to your head, you just went along with it, so it couldn't really have been rape." "Well, you were just prostituting yourself to get drugs, so it couldn't really have been rape." "Well there are no bruises or other evidence of violence, so you probably just misunderstood what was going on." "Well, you didn't resist, so you must have wanted it." And so on like that.

That's why so many sexual predators are so effective and get away with their predation for so long. They are able to use the circumstances and social prejudices and stereotypes to make their victims look and feel complicit in the act, like they are responsible for their own victimization. And society far too often goes along with that.
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Old 13th March 2018, 11:43 AM   #178
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The other aspects of this case aren't being ignored. But this isn't just about kidnapping and rape. It's also about systematic entrapment and conditioning of children, to be complicit in their own abuse.

We understand that "grooming" in this context does not mean something so innocent as "hairdressing a dog" or "mentoring a protege". We understand that it is a specialist term describing an obscene technique for long-term exploitation.
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Old 13th March 2018, 12:21 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Perhaps it would be more accurate to focus on the end result, rather than the preliminaries. Call them "rape gangs"?
It was not just the fact that they raped people that made them noteworthy rather it was how they did it. Moreover, depending on the circumstances, it's quite possible that the behavior in question doesn't amount to rape but rather some other form of sexual coercion or exploitation.

This is one of the reasons why i question the focus upon children and youth. Surely there are adults who are subject to much of the same sexual exploitation as well? Why don't they get as much media exposure? Can you even legally "groom" an adult?
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Old 13th March 2018, 12:48 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
It was not just the fact that they raped people that made them noteworthy rather it was how they did it. Moreover, depending on the circumstances, it's quite possible that the behavior in question doesn't amount to rape but rather some other form of sexual coercion or exploitation.

This is one of the reasons why i question the focus upon children and youth. Surely there are adults who are subject to much of the same sexual exploitation as well? Why don't they get as much media exposure? Can you even legally "groom" an adult?
You would have to ask the perpetrators why they find it "noteworthy" to groom and then sexually assault and rape children rather than adults.

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Old 13th March 2018, 01:09 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
This is one of the reasons why i question the focus upon children and youth. Surely there are adults who are subject to much of the same sexual exploitation as well? Why don't they get as much media exposure? Can you even legally "groom" an adult?

If you mean by "legally 'groom' an adult" that there are laws against doing so, then yes, there are such laws protecting adults in certain circumstances; but those are more limited than in the case of children, since adults are typically assumed to be knowledgeable and experienced enough to have full agency, which children do not.

The most common legal protections involve a category known as "vulnerable adults", which is similar to vulnerable children. This includes those who are "non compos mentis" for reasons of mental illness, age-related mental disorders, and developmental disabilities; the severely disabled who are dependent on outside assistance for their survival or day-to-day functioning; and those who are dependent on medical caregivers for survival (either permanently or temporarily). There are typically degrees to which those laws apply, dependent on the degree of vulnerability of the adult.
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:34 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
<snip>

This is one of the reasons why i question the focus upon children and youth. Surely there are adults who are subject to much of the same sexual exploitation as well? Why don't they get as much media exposure? Can you even legally "groom" an adult?

I think the applicable term would then be "seduce", and assumes a minimum level of statutory competence.
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Old 13th March 2018, 03:51 PM   #183
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I shouldn't have said groom legally, because I knew that such laws were explicitly aimed towards underage people. I was thinking more in a general sense.

Basically, it must be possible to sexually exploit adults in a way that's perfectly legal yet just as detestable as if it was done against a minor.

Adults, and to a lesser degree minors over the age of consent, are expected to be able to assert themselves and reject sexual advances and requests that they don't want. But what if an adult was in a relationship with someone who pressured them into having sex with others?

I guess if they got paid for it it's pimping, but in case they didn't what kind of offence could it fall under? There's no force or violent threats but perhaps threats of breaking up the relationship, meaning that they can't stay in this guy's apartment. Guilt tripping them also might occur.
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Old 13th March 2018, 05:50 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I shouldn't have said groom legally, because I knew that such laws were explicitly aimed towards underage people. I was thinking more in a general sense.

Basically, it must be possible to sexually exploit adults in a way that's perfectly legal yet just as detestable as if it was done against a minor.

Well, no. Because adults, unless they're "vulnerable adults" as noted in my previous post, are expected to have the presence of mind, the knowledge and experience, to understand the potential risks and consequences of a sexual relationship. "Grooming" requires an inherent power imbalance, and a lack of knowledge and experience on the part of the victim. It's not possible "groom" a victim without that imbalance.

"Seducing" an adult presumes that the target is aware of the nature of the interaction, is fully capable of understanding and consenting to it. It is an attempt to overcome the resistance of a relative equal through charm and persuasion. Anything else is coercion or fraud, and generally illegal in civilized societies.

The reason that actions that are legal between adults are illegal when involving children and younger teens is that children are not sexually developed at all and entirely capable of understanding sex, and younger teens are too immature and insufficiently experienced to adequately understand the implications and consequences of a sexual relationship.
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Old 13th March 2018, 08:27 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Chance would be a fine thing. But more seriously, this fermentation of culture I mentioned actually means that each generation is worse than the one preceding. You'd imagine that the seniors would be more conservative, more intolerant and less willing to integrate that the youngsters, but the reverse tends to be true. Some of these communities are like lawless countries with a country, and nothing is being done to address this.
There really isn't an equivalent of that in the US that I've heard of, with the possible exception of one Somalian community in exactly one state. Even our slightly insular undocumented communities from Mexico have kids who are basically sweating apple pie by Jr High, and the moms are all on pinterest. Mainstream Mexican culture is really quite similar to mainstream American culture, too, and the immigrants are generally people fleeing gang violence.

Our FBI is really on top of anything that hints of child prostitution, with local state FBI offices integrated with local police in every major city. It's hard to tell from a quick google search who, exactly, is in charge of what in the UK. Local police? NCA? Whatever agency it is, they do seem to be dropping the ball.
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Old 13th March 2018, 11:14 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
During the interview the presenter auto-reverted to 'Asian' (the effort of accurate reporting sans obfuscation evidently could not maintained for more than a couple of minutes) but the autocued introduction told it as it is.

'Asian Grooming Gang' is a very clever piece of terminology. 'Asian' spreads the blame, inviting the argument that the vast majority of Asians do not behave in this way and thus diluting the accusation. 'Grooming' suggests the actions of a sly old pervert, plying a girl with sweets and promises of puppy interaction in the likely vain hope of a sexual encounter, as opposed to violent rape, forced prostitution and torture by criminals possessing not a shred of humanity. And 'Gang' tagged on the end further reduces the phrase almost to parody, a quirky group comprising a bunch of diverse and bumbling characters with unpleasant intentions towards kids. All rather distasteful, what O, and we British must make a stand against this silliness!
When the BBC says "Asian" in the context of a sex scandal, we all know what they mean.
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Old 14th March 2018, 01:39 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
'Asian Grooming Gang' is a very clever piece of terminology. 'Asian' spreads the blame, inviting the argument that the vast majority of Asians do not behave in this way and thus diluting the accusation. 'Grooming' suggests the actions of a sly old pervert, plying a girl with sweets and promises of puppy interaction in the likely vain hope of a sexual encounter, as opposed to violent rape, forced prostitution and torture by criminals possessing not a shred of humanity. And 'Gang' tagged on the end further reduces the phrase almost to parody, a quirky group comprising a bunch of diverse and bumbling characters with unpleasant intentions towards kids.

Absolutely spot on paragraph. And of course the damage control immediately began. The last thing they want is the light of truth to shine. They want wiggle words. It helps them sleep at night.
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Old 14th March 2018, 01:50 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
When the BBC says "Asian" in the context of a sex scandal, we all know what they mean.
Really? Not sure I do. What do YOU think they mean?
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Old 14th March 2018, 01:58 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The reason that actions that are legal between adults are illegal when involving children and younger teens is that children are not sexually developed at all and entirely capable of understanding sex, and younger teens are too immature and insufficiently experienced to adequately understand the implications and consequences of a sexual relationship.
True, although the dividing lines are somewhat arbitrary. There isn't a mechanism that switches from one state to another in the human mind when it hits 16 or 18 or whatever. Many 19+ year olds can self-evidently still be stupendously immature and open to manipulation and exploitation, while some of those below such age limits can be the exact opposite. I've known 14 and 15 year old who could wipe the floor with anyone who tried to take advantage of them, but also 20-30 year olds too gullible for their own good.

Disclaimer: The above is a general observation, and I am in no way implying any direct relevance to the case under discussion.
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Old 14th March 2018, 02:01 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Absolutely spot on paragraph. And of course the damage control immediately began. The last thing they want is the light of truth to shine. They want wiggle words. It helps them sleep at night.
Who is this "they"?
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Old 14th March 2018, 02:32 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Our FBI is really on top of anything that hints of child prostitution, with local state FBI offices integrated with local police in every major city. It's hard to tell from a quick google search who, exactly, is in charge of what in the UK. Local police? NCA? Whatever agency it is, they do seem to be dropping the ball.
I would seem that it's primarily up to the territorial police forces, although all are answerable to the Home Office in England & Wales, and adhere to common guidance on a whole host of crime issues. Scotland has a single unified police force, and as Nessie's earlier post illustrated, they are also actively looking for this sort of thing. It's notable that while some of the gangs have operated outside of their own areas in terms of transporting victims around, it's doubtful whether there is any real connection between any of them, simply because none has been established. The NCA does get involved in child protection issues, but it's not clear the extent to which they are in these specific types of cases.
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Old 14th March 2018, 02:46 AM   #192
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For new immigrants to the UK, particularly from rural Pakistan or Afghanistan, unaccompanied, single, young females who will speak to them, is a new experience. Then some of those girls are confident and are not opposed to extra-marital sex. That is quite a culture shock for the males.

Those males are often limited in the work they can find. Much of the grooming activity centred around takeaway shops. Those shops brought the males into contact with girls, who would be invited to parties and/or given gifts, to then be asked for favours. Some of those more confident girls would then recruit other girls to come and party.

So, whilst the grooming was organised, it was like organising a piss up in a brewery, as everything needed was to hand.
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Old 14th March 2018, 03:08 AM   #193
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Here is what happened. Chief Constables morning meeting, English urban force with large Asian population;

Superintendent - sir, there has been a claim by a social worker than girls under her care are being groomed by Asian males for sex.
Chief - how long has that being going on for and how many are involved?
Super - a few years now and maybe as many as a few hundred males and many girls are in care.
Chief - ridicule the social worker, cover up the scandal. We do not want to look like racists gong after Asian males who are having sex with a few slags from the children's home (thinking, I am retired soon and my pension is secure as no one is ever held to account for what happened when they were in charge).

Chief Constables morning meeting, Scotland;

Superintendent - I have been told there may be a grooming issue in England in areas with large Asian populations.
Chief - we don't have any areas like that, do we?
Super - no, it is unlikely we have the same problem.
Chief - great, investigate thoroughly and then declare not finding a problem that is not there a huge success.
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Old 14th March 2018, 03:35 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
No one is saying that, that's your straw man.

While I applaud your attempt at egalitarianism, the fact is that some children are more vulnerable to sexual predators than others, due to their circumstances, and your commentary smacks of #AllChildrenMatter denialism.

It is an established fact that children and teens in certain circumstances -- unstable or abusive home lives, LGBTQ, severe poverty, marginalized communities, homeless, refugees, illicit drug users, illegal immigrants, mental illness, developmental disability, and so on -- are disproportionately vulnerable to predators. They are both easier to manipulate and more readily available to predators than children and teens from more stable and socially acceptable groups.

Denying this smacks of the same classism, elitism, and denialism you're accusing others of engaging in. It denies the need for allocating additional resources and time to prevent them from becoming victims in the first place. That #AllChildrenAreVulnerable attitude prevents government and society from recognizing and addressing the heightened needs and risks of these groups. It's dismissive and perpetuates the problem rather than solves it.

...snip...
If I had denied it you'd have a point but since I didn't you are arguing against something I haven't said. You've taken the entirely wrong point from my posts.

Statistically yes children from poor and poverty backgrounds are more likely to be "vulnerable children" in the sense social services use the term, but that is as a general statistic not as individuals.

The problem (in the cases we have proper reports about) is that simply because a child came from a poor area or a rough area they were assumed to be a problem kid by the police and other authorities (and most weren't - or weren't when the abuse started) so their reports of abuse were brushed aside and ignored.

This is why we shouldn't allow the idea that it was "just" vulnerable children that are targeted, that are at risk to be bandied about. All parents and authorities need to understand that all children can fall victim to the predation of such despicable people.
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Old 14th March 2018, 03:39 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I shouldn't have said groom legally, because I knew that such laws were explicitly aimed towards underage people. I was thinking more in a general sense.

Basically, it must be possible to sexually exploit adults in a way that's perfectly legal yet just as detestable as if it was done against a minor.

Adults, and to a lesser degree minors over the age of consent, are expected to be able to assert themselves and reject sexual advances and requests that they don't want. But what if an adult was in a relationship with someone who pressured them into having sex with others?

I guess if they got paid for it it's pimping, but in case they didn't what kind of offence could it fall under? There's no force or violent threats but perhaps threats of breaking up the relationship, meaning that they can't stay in this guy's apartment. Guilt tripping them also might occur.
Of course - children can't legally give consent to having sex to anyone - whether they are being groomed or just in love it doesn't matter.

But I think I know what you mean and we have in the UK incorporated in some jurisdictions "Controlling or Coercive Behaviour" as a type of offence.
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Old 14th March 2018, 03:43 AM   #196
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The police had a choice;

A - dismiss reports from young girls with care home or disfunctional backgrounds and not investigate further
B - investigate and accuse predominantly Asian males in what would be huge and expensive operation that would be embarrassing to do.

A was far easier to do, so A happened. It should not be surprising that took place as the senior police managers in the UK are risk averse and inclined to suppress problems.
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Old 14th March 2018, 03:47 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
...
This is why we shouldn't allow the idea that it was "just" vulnerable children that are targeted, that are at risk to be bandied about. All parents and authorities need to understand that all children can fall victim to the predation of such despicable people.
Their MO was to use the girls who came to them and then use the more confident cooperative girls to recruit other girls. That is a closed group, where girls who have no contact with the males are not at risk.

There was not the same level of predatory action as is required for online grooming of younger children. Any kid who went onto any online site was at risk.
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Old 14th March 2018, 03:54 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The police had a choice;

A - dismiss reports from young girls with care home or disfunctional backgrounds and not investigate further
B - investigate and accuse predominantly Asian males in what would be huge and expensive operation that would be embarrassing to do.

A was far easier to do, so A happened. It should not be surprising that took place as the senior police managers in the UK are risk averse and inclined to suppress problems.
luchog - I hope you can see this is exactly why I don't like this "vulnerable" children meme that has started up.

Nessie - your A should have read

A - dismiss reports from young girls without any known previous behavioural issues and dismiss reports from concerned parents with no known previous issues of bad parenting and dismiss social workers oh and dismiss a small number of reports from young girls with care home or disfunctional backgrounds and not investigate further.

Many of the children involved came from good households, had good parents who cared about their children, that attempted to get the police and social services to do something about the terrible abuse they believed may be happening to their child but because they were poor many of the authorities used that as a way of dismissing the reports as they came from as I posted earlier "the wrong side of the tracks" and we all know chavs are slags.

Many of the children abused did go on to become "problem" children - because they were abused and the authorities didn't do anything about it.
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Old 14th March 2018, 04:03 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Their MO was to use the girls who came to them and then use the more confident cooperative girls to recruit other girls. That is a closed group, where girls who have no contact with the males are not at risk.

There was not the same level of predatory action as is required for online grooming of younger children. Any kid who went onto any online site was at risk.
The first contacts were often via takeaways and taxi drivers. Children going to a local takeaway are not "vulnerable children" they are simply children going to a local takeaway. Some of those children buying food or hanging out in the local takeaway may well be "vulnerable children" but many aren't.

In these reports we know that predominantly the children moved from being everyday kids to being "vulnerable children" because of the abuse they suffered. Indeed developing such such behaviours are well known to be a sign of child abuse, yet in these reports when those behaviours were taken to the police or authorities they were dismissed, usually based on terrible generalisations.

In these types of incidents we know that the egg came before the chicken.
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Old 14th March 2018, 04:34 AM   #200
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I think you in the UK need to name and shame (if not prosecute) the specific officers in positions of leadership responsible for letting this go on.

The situation in the US is such that "normal" prostitution busts get called sex trafficking stings sometimes, because the police seem to want the kudos of saving someone as opposed to merely stamping out a vice. I'd never before now realized how fortunate we are in that respect over here.
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