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Old 14th March 2018, 06:24 AM   #201
Craig B
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
That's why so many sexual predators are so effective and get away with their predation for so long. They are able to use the circumstances and social prejudices and stereotypes to make their victims look and feel complicit in the act, like they are responsible for their own victimization. And society far too often goes along with that.
That might be true of certain behaviours which might it might not constitute rape, but what for example Baron is talking about admits of no ambiguity as regards responsibility.
Originally Posted by baron View Post
thousands of children are raped, tortured and murdered in towns and cities across the UK all the police can do (when they're not actively aiding the rapists) is sit on their hands for thirty years then make excuses for why they have done next to nothing.
There's nothing ambiguous about that at all. Thousands of children are being raped, tortured and murdered, and the typical response of the police is actively to aid these crimes. To reduce this to something that victims may feel confused or complicit about is preposterous in the extreme circumstances of the crimes described by Baron. Nor may we dare to question him.
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Just come right out and deny it's happening. That's at least being honest. Don't do any research, don't try to gain any knowledge of the topic, just claim the problem doesn't exist and be true to your real agenda.
He makes it even more clear here.
Originally Posted by baron View Post
The usual suspects will always try to force the thread off-topic whilst accusing those who discuss the topic itself of 'playing up' the situation. Because merely posting on the subject of thousands of children being raped, beaten, kidnapped, tortured and murdered is 'playing up' the situation. Nothing to see here, just a big misunderstanding of 'transactional' issues in certain communities, let's not make a fuss.
So it's not about misunderstandings it's about
Quote:
thousands of children being raped, beaten, kidnapped, tortured and murdered
That in my view is what we should be talking about. Is that a fair description of what is happening or not? If it is a fair description, the situation is orders of magnitude more grave than any other social issue confronting us
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Old 14th March 2018, 07:16 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
luchog - I hope you can see this is exactly why I don't like this "vulnerable" children meme that has started up.

Sounds like a cultural thing then, a result of the profoundly classist British culture. In the US, when we use the world "vulnerable", we do not mean "dismissable underclass", we mean "more likely to be victimized due to their social status".

I think it's a matter of how it's addressed. In the US, recognition that the underclasses are being dismissed and inadequately protected by the overculture comes first, then we tag such people as "vulnerable" to motivate more attention and resources to be dedicated to solving their problems and ensuring additional protections. It doesn't do as much as it could, but it's gradually getting better despite setbacks such as our current administration.

In the UK it sounds like it they have a different definition of the word, and people are identified as "vulnerable" so that they can be dismissed by the overculture. And the people do not call out their leadership for doing so.

Simply denying their vulnerable status or complaining about terminology in either case doesn't do anything to help, nor does #AllChildrenAreVulnerable help them any more than #AllLivesMatter helps black people stop getting routinely murdered by police. The facts are what they are, poor and underclass children are several times more likely to be victimized than middle and upper class children, and it's important to recognize those facts, and respond accordingly, allocating resources where necessary, and not get sidetracked into semantic quibbling.
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Old 14th March 2018, 08:36 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Is that a fair description of what is happening or not?
A fair description without a shadow of doubt, although I'd like to point out I omitted 'suicide', which took the lives of countless girls as a direct result of the abuse they endured. We know these things have happened, no guesswork is involved. The evidence is obtainable via the media (to an extent), in the official reports and more pertinently in the accounts of the victims and those few professionals who have the balls to speak up. An official report (IMO watered down) by Alexis Jay states, "It is hard to describe the appalling nature of the abuse that child victims suffered", and indeed the true nature of it is rarely if ever broadcast by the mainstream media.
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Old 14th March 2018, 08:51 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Here is what happened. Chief Constables morning meeting, English urban force with large Asian population;

Superintendent - sir, there has been a claim by a social worker than girls under her care are being groomed by Asian males for sex.
Chief - how long has that being going on for and how many are involved?
Super - a few years now and maybe as many as a few hundred males and many girls are in care.
Chief - ridicule the social worker, cover up the scandal. We do not want to look like racists gong after Asian males who are having sex with a few slags from the children's home (thinking, I am retired soon and my pension is secure as no one is ever held to account for what happened when they were in charge).
I still don't buy the idea that merely a fear of "looking racist" would have been enough to ignore such clear warnings, if they were made. They certainly can't be seen in isolation of wider social issues, merely because they look "obvious" in retrospect. Cases of abuse both within and external of the care system have been rife for decades. It's certainly been known for a very long time that being "in care" is not incarceration, and those in charge have little control or means of restraint over them.

Quote:
Chief Constables morning meeting, Scotland;

Superintendent - I have been told there may be a grooming issue in England in areas with large Asian populations.
Chief - we don't have any areas like that, do we?
Super - no, it is unlikely we have the same problem.
Chief - great, investigate thoroughly and then declare not finding a problem that is not there a huge success.
Are you suggesting that this sort of thing "only" happens in such areas, and because Scotland does not have such areas, it can't happen or have been have happened there? How big does such an area have to be before "peak abuse" occurs?

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Old 14th March 2018, 09:09 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
A fair description without a shadow of doubt, although I'd like to point out I omitted 'suicide', which took the lives of countless girls as a direct result of the abuse they endured.
Why "countless"? Surely any likely suicides have been identified and thus can be tabulated?
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Old 14th March 2018, 09:50 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Why "countless"? Surely any likely suicides have been identified and thus can be tabulated?
How can you be certain as to the definitive cause of the suicide? It's not easy to ask the victims on account of them being dead. However, when disproportionately large numbers of very young victims kill themselves it's clear that the abuse played a major part.
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Old 14th March 2018, 09:58 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
luchog - I hope you can see this is exactly why I don't like this "vulnerable" children meme that has started up.

Nessie - your A should have read

A - dismiss reports from young girls without any known previous behavioural issues and dismiss reports from concerned parents with no known previous issues of bad parenting and dismiss social workers oh and dismiss a small number of reports from young girls with care home or disfunctional backgrounds and not investigate further.

Many of the children involved came from good households, had good parents who cared about their children, that attempted to get the police and social services to do something about the terrible abuse they believed may be happening to their child but because they were poor many of the authorities used that as a way of dismissing the reports as they came from as I posted earlier "the wrong side of the tracks" and we all know chavs are slags.

Many of the children abused did go on to become "problem" children - because they were abused and the authorities didn't do anything about it.
Can you cite examples of such victims? Back when I was in Operation Dash, the known victims were all from a care home/social work supervision background. Many were from good households with good parents, but they were foster parents, not the natural parents. I did not check or remember any victim who was from a "good" household.
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Old 14th March 2018, 10:06 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
A fair description without a shadow of doubt, although I'd like to point out I omitted 'suicide', which took the lives of countless girls as a direct result of the abuse they endured. We know these things have happened, no guesswork is involved. The evidence is obtainable via the media (to an extent), in the official reports and more pertinently in the accounts of the victims and those few professionals who have the balls to speak up. An official report (IMO watered down) by Alexis Jay states, "It is hard to describe the appalling nature of the abuse that child victims suffered", and indeed the true nature of it is rarely if ever broadcast by the mainstream media.
But thousands murdered? There is no way that happened!
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Old 14th March 2018, 10:07 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I still don't buy the idea that merely a fear of "looking racist" would have been enough to ignore such clear warnings, if they were made. They certainly can't be seen in isolation of wider social issues, merely because they look "obvious" in retrospect. Cases of abuse both within and external of the care system have been rife for decades. It's certainly been known for a very long time that being "in care" is not incarceration, and those in charge have little control or means of restraint over them.
Victim dismissal due to consideration that their testimony was no credible was also a major reason. I thought that was clear from my post when I referenced slags from a children's home.

Quote:
Are you suggesting that this sort of thing "only" happens in such areas, and because Scotland does not have such areas, it can't happen or have been have happened there? How big does such an area have to be before "peak abuse" occurs?
I do not have a precise figure for you, but the likely hood of a grooming gang grows where there is an area populated by more like minded males. There have been instances in Scotland;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-29550068

"Afghan national Javaid Akhond, 20, targeted three girls aged, 12, 13 and 15 in Glasgow between 2011 and 2013.
The High Court in Glasgow heard how he lured them into having sex by buying them presents and inviting them to parties at his flat in Shawlands.
The failed asylum seeker was caught by a police operation to root out child sexual exploitation."

but the lower population means the instances are rarer, more isolated and involve fewer victims.
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Old 14th March 2018, 10:15 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But thousands murdered? There is no way that happened!
No, that would be an obtuse interpretation of what I wrote.
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Old 14th March 2018, 10:30 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...jailed-6398013

""The combination of inadequate parenting leading to rebellious children lacking supervision provided an opportunity.
"If they pursued Asian under-age girls, they would have paid a heavy price in their community."
The two victims came from troubled backgrounds and wanted to feel grown up when they were befriended by the men."

Quote:
Cannot find details about victim background.

Quote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-30078503

"Bristol Crown Court heard one victim, aged 16, was assaulted by five Somali men after she was moved to the city while in the care of another authority.
Her 14-year-old sister was raped by a member of the gang while visiting her....The first trial centred on a group of drug dealers from the Easton area and their exploitation of primarily one teenage girl.
She had been moved into a flat on her own in the city and left almost unsupervised by social workers from outside the area."

So far, where there is a sex abuse ring of Asian males, I cannot find a victim who was not also the subject of social work supervision or who had spent time in care.
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Old 14th March 2018, 10:50 AM   #212
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Quote:
"From 2004–2012, the men groomed children from 11 to 15-years-old from dysfunctional backgrounds who were unlikely to be believed with others living in care homes...Karrar visited the girl at her house where she was a carer for her deaf and ill parents...A 14-year-old girl was threatened with a gun into having sex with member of the sex ring. She said the gang members were aware she lived in a children's home."
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Old 14th March 2018, 10:57 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
For new immigrants to the UK, particularly from rural Pakistan or Afghanistan, unaccompanied, single, young females who will speak to them, is a new experience. Then some of those girls are confident and are not opposed to extra-marital sex. That is quite a culture shock for the males.

Those males are often limited in the work they can find. Much of the grooming activity centred around takeaway shops. Those shops brought the males into contact with girls, who would be invited to parties and/or given gifts, to then be asked for favours. Some of those more confident girls would then recruit other girls to come and party.

So, whilst the grooming was organised, it was like organising a piss up in a brewery, as everything needed was to hand.

Amazing how far people will go to try and soften kids being drugged, beaten, and repeatedly and violently raped. Way to perfectly illustrate the problem.
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Old 14th March 2018, 11:15 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
How can you be certain as to the definitive cause of the suicide? It's not easy to ask the victims on account of them being dead. However, when disproportionately large numbers of very young victims kill themselves it's clear that the abuse played a major part.
So a "disproportionately large number" that you can't actually substantiate?
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Old 14th March 2018, 11:18 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Amazing how far people will go to try and soften kids being drugged, beaten, and repeatedly and violently raped. Way to perfectly illustrate the problem.
I don't think Nessie is the problem. He (she?) is trying to identify the cause. It's always worthwhile to understand the problem, how else can you address it effectively?
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Old 14th March 2018, 11:18 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Amazing how far people will go to try and soften kids being drugged, beaten, and repeatedly and violently raped. Way to perfectly illustrate the problem.
How is seeking to clarify the scale and nature of the problem "softening" it?
One would think that it would be a good thing that there we less victims than some of the wilder estimates, but instead it seems that some want there to be more.
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Old 14th March 2018, 11:21 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
So a "disproportionately large number" that you can't actually substantiate?
Now this is the post that illustrates the problem - constantly trying to minimize or cast doubt upon what happened.
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Old 14th March 2018, 11:58 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Amazing how far people will go to try and soften kids being drugged, beaten, and repeatedly and violently raped. Way to perfectly illustrate the problem.
What do mean by "soften"?
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Old 14th March 2018, 12:08 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I don't think Nessie is the problem. He (she?) is trying to identify the cause. It's always worthwhile to understand the problem, how else can you address it effectively?
I worked on Operation Dash for a time, so I know a lot about the issues.

The Scottish police reaction was far more proactive and organised than any response in England. In England reports of CSE and grooming were ignored. In Scotland the police did not wait for reports to be made. Potential victims were identified and interviewed to see if anything had happened to them.
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Old 14th March 2018, 12:17 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I worked on Operation Dash for a time, so I know a lot about the issues.

The Scottish police reaction was far more proactive and organised than any response in England. In England reports of CSE and grooming were ignored. In Scotland the police did not wait for reports to be made. Potential victims were identified and interviewed to see if anything had happened to them.
And it's worth digging into why the differences in approach existed. Was it:
- political pressure to look the other way didn't exist (as the offending communities were less numerous)
- police training and procedure in Scotland emphasizes proactiveness more than in England
- different levels of resources (per capita of population, or per capita of 'vulnerable ' population)
- etc
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Old 14th March 2018, 12:54 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
And it's worth digging into why the differences in approach existed. Was it:
- political pressure to look the other way didn't exist (as the offending communities were less numerous)
- police training and procedure in Scotland emphasizes proactiveness more than in England
- different levels of resources (per capita of population, or per capita of 'vulnerable ' population)
- etc
Going by the briefing meeting I attended prior to starting my role, it was because senior managers wanted to check and make sure they were not going to be caught out as they had been down south. Plus, it was not expected that there was a major problem, so the operation would not be too expensive and it could be temporary.
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Old 14th March 2018, 01:31 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Sounds like a cultural thing then, a result of the profoundly classist British culture.
That sounds very bigoted.
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Old 14th March 2018, 01:57 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That sounds very bigoted.
Not really. Classism generally accompanies high levels of inequality in a society.
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Old 14th March 2018, 02:11 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Going by the briefing meeting I attended prior to starting my role, it was because senior managers wanted to check and make sure they were not going to be caught out as they had been down south. Plus, it was not expected that there was a major problem, so the operation would not be too expensive and it could be temporary.
You know, I was going to say I hope there be no cause in the future to question your sense of certainty, but it seems that time has already passed...

Daily Record: Concerns have been raised that eight teenage girls in Lanarkshire are being sexually groomed by a gang of Asian men from Glasgow
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Old 14th March 2018, 02:12 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
So a "disproportionately large number" that you can't actually substantiate?
I can. You can't. That's because you don't know anything about the subject. If you did, you could too.
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Old 14th March 2018, 02:12 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Not really. Classism generally accompanies high levels of inequality in a society.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that...
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Old 14th March 2018, 02:13 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Now this is the post that illustrates the problem - constantly trying to minimize or cast doubt upon what happened.
Ten years ago his arguments would have been listened to. Today, only a small number of fringe apologists are willing to go down that nasty alley.
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Old 14th March 2018, 02:18 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that...
Sure, but it's still a rule that generally holds.
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Old 14th March 2018, 02:25 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You know, I was going to say I hope there be no cause in the future to question your sense of certainty, but it seems that time has already passed...

Daily Record: Concerns have been raised that eight teenage girls in Lanarkshire are being sexually groomed by a gang of Asian men from Glasgow
I have said and exampled instances happening in Scotland already. I said in the post you quoted "it was not expected that there was a major problem". I said that where I worked we found no instances.

I did not say there was no problem anywhere in Scotland.
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Old 14th March 2018, 03:05 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
What do mean by "soften"?

Well, your entire help everyone sleep at night story for one. Which at best was a description of an entirely different problem. And at worst the "more confident girls" BS is being complicit in a cover-up of the crime.

It has been proven without a doubt that many police forces in the UK have been involved in covering up these horrible crimes. Please don't be a part of it.

This fantasy grooming fairy tale BS needs to end.

I have a feeling many people in these agencies simply have no idea what drugs can do to a young teenager.
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Old 15th March 2018, 01:13 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Well, no. Because adults, unless they're "vulnerable adults" as noted in my previous post, are expected to have the presence of mind, the knowledge and experience, to understand the potential risks and consequences of a sexual relationship. "Grooming" requires an inherent power imbalance, and a lack of knowledge and experience on the part of the victim. It's not possible "groom" a victim without that imbalance.

"Seducing" an adult presumes that the target is aware of the nature of the interaction, is fully capable of understanding and consenting to it. It is an attempt to overcome the resistance of a relative equal through charm and persuasion. Anything else is coercion or fraud, and generally illegal in civilized societies.

The reason that actions that are legal between adults are illegal when involving children and younger teens is that children are not sexually developed at all and entirely capable of understanding sex, and younger teens are too immature and insufficiently experienced to adequately understand the implications and consequences of a sexual relationship.
I don't think seduce is the right word to use.

Here's very realistic scenario: a 15 year old youth is thrown out of his home by his parents after they discover that he's gay. Legally they can't do this but it still happens even in Sweden, primarily among immigrants. He contacts a guy he his thirties that had been with earlier and gets to stay there on the condition that they become boyfriends and have lots of sex.

While this can quite clearly be classified as exploitive it's, as far as I can see, not illegal at all according to Swedish law.

There was a case 4 years back where something similar happened, although they were 20 years old, and the abuser was only convicted because they used violence to force them into sex and because they were pressured into prostituting themselves.
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Old 15th March 2018, 03:03 AM   #232
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Also here in Sweden, the case of the two pedophile brothers was just up on appeal and the judges actually lowered their sentence based in part on the motivation, as explained by the chief judge, that - "all children say they have had an exchange of relationship with the brothers."

Essentially, because they played video and role-playing games together and associated with each other at other times, their relationships with the accused cannot be exclusively considered to be one of one-sided sexual abuse. Naturally people have criticized this judgement.

No idea what ethnicity or religious persuasion the brothers had, although since they won't be deported after serving their sentence it means they have Swedish citizenship. Besides, it's a well known fact that Swedes are gay.

Racist xenophobes need only fear being raped by swarthy Muslims and black people if they are a woman. I guess the exception is Afghanis, who have a reputation of raping (mostly afghani) teenage boys. If you are a pretty boy in his mid to late teens then I'd consider keeping a large distance in between you and any refugee accommodations.
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Old 15th March 2018, 03:05 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
It has been proven without a doubt that many police forces in the UK have been involved in covering up these horrible crimes.
Yes, South Yorkshire Police - spectacularly - with Rotherham, and to a lesser extent Thames Valley Police with Oxford, Greater Manchester Police for Rochdale, and West Mercia Police for Telford. So four out of 39 English forces, or the 45 UK territorial forces. Does 9-10% constitute "many"?

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Old 15th March 2018, 03:23 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Well, your entire help everyone sleep at night story for one. Which at best was a description of an entirely different problem. And at worst the "more confident girls" BS is being complicit in a cover-up of the crime.

It has been proven without a doubt that many police forces in the UK have been involved in covering up these horrible crimes. Please don't be a part of it.

This fantasy grooming fairy tale BS needs to end.

I have a feeling many people in these agencies simply have no idea what drugs can do to a young teenager.
Research during Operation Dash, the Police Scotland response to grooming gangs, found that more confident girls did help the males recruit other girls to go and party. That is no part of the cover up, it is part of the MO by the perpetrators.

I am not denying there were police forces whose initial response was to cover up and ignore reports.

It is not a fantasy fairy tail that certain Asian males groomed girls for sex. It has been proven time and time again in numerous trials.
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Old 15th March 2018, 05:00 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Research during Operation Dash, the Police Scotland response to grooming gangs, found that more confident girls did help the males recruit other girls to go and party. That is no part of the cover up, it is part of the MO by the perpetrators.

I am not denying there were police forces whose initial response was to cover up and ignore reports.

It is not a fantasy fairy tail that certain Asian males groomed girls for sex. It has been proven time and time again in numerous trials.
I appreciated your informative posts. I don't really understand what the criticism is beyond something like "these facts aren't satisfactorily damning: kindly change the facts to be more horrible".
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Old 15th March 2018, 06:34 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Research during Operation Dash, the Police Scotland response to grooming gangs, found that more confident girls did help the males recruit other girls to go and party. That is no part of the cover up, it is part of the MO by the perpetrators.

<snip>

I am not trying to diminish the seriousness of some of these allegations, but I do want to point out that if persuading pretty girls to go partying in the hope of having sex with them at some future time is "grooming", then yes, there's 'a whole lotta that goin' on', and it is hardly limited to dirty, sleazy "Asian" thugs.

Unless, of course, it is when "Asians" are doing it that makes it "grooming".
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Old 15th March 2018, 06:59 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I am not trying to diminish the seriousness of some of these allegations, but I do want to point out that if persuading pretty girls to go partying in the hope of having sex with them at some future time is "grooming", then yes, there's 'a whole lotta that goin' on', and it is hardly limited to dirty, sleazy "Asian" thugs.

Unless, of course, it is when "Asians" are doing it that makes it "grooming".
Yes, there does seem to be an elemnt of retroactive (re)defining of what happened. We don't have some sort of new interpretation of the Nuremberg Laws on the statute book, so a girl - underage or not - being chatted up by an "racial undesirable" doesn't automatically attract the attention of the authorities.

It's notable that in some of these cases there were reckoned to be a number of girls from within the perpetrators own communities being abused, as well, but how they were "recruited" and controlled was different. Once ensnared, the simple threat of informing their families they'd had sex was enough. In turn this means that even after exposure, arrest, and prosecution of some of the perpetrators, victims from within their own community keep silent, when those outside it can feel comfortable enough to come forward. This reinforces the "Pakistani-Muslim men preying only on white girls" image.
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Old 15th March 2018, 07:30 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes, there does seem to be an elemnt of retroactive (re)defining of what happened. We don't have some sort of new interpretation of the Nuremberg Laws on the statute book, so a girl - underage or not - being chatted up by an "racial undesirable" doesn't automatically attract the attention of the authorities.

It's notable that in some of these cases there were reckoned to be a number of girls from within the perpetrators own communities being abused, as well, but how they were "recruited" and controlled was different. Once ensnared, the simple threat of informing their families they'd had sex was enough. In turn this means that even after exposure, arrest, and prosecution of some of the perpetrators, victims from within their own community keep silent, when those outside it can feel comfortable enough to come forward. This reinforces the "Pakistani-Muslim men preying only on white girls" image.
Cite?
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Old 15th March 2018, 07:40 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Not really. Classism generally accompanies high levels of inequality in a society.
I think you missed my point.
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Old 15th March 2018, 08:07 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes, South Yorkshire Police - spectacularly - with Rotherham, and to a lesser extent Thames Valley Police with Oxford, Greater Manchester Police for Rochdale, and West Mercia Police for Telford. So four out of 39 English forces, or the 45 UK territorial forces. Does 9-10% constitute "many"?
Yes, it does.
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