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Old 15th March 2018, 08:12 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes, it does.
Especially when it is not yet clear if the remaining 90% of forces are actually in the clear, or just haven't 'detected ' any wrong doing.

There may also be demographics involved. I.e. Cornwall is unlikely to have a large Pakistani community, so including their police force in the statistics is a bit misleading (you haven't passed the test if you haven't been tested ).
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Old 15th March 2018, 08:18 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes, South Yorkshire Police - spectacularly - with Rotherham, and to a lesser extent Thames Valley Police with Oxford, Greater Manchester Police for Rochdale, and West Mercia Police for Telford. So four out of 39 English forces, or the 45 UK territorial forces. Does 9-10% constitute "many"?
Ten percent according to your post, then the ones you've missed out, like West Yorkshire.

Then, if go by the population / number of police officers in the relevant forces as opposed to counting each force as equal (which is not an informative measure of the extent of the problem), your percentage jumps to well over 50%.

Then, you didn't mention that the CPS itself has apologised, plus some councils and social services departments.

And these figures will unquestionably rise, IMO drastically.

Is it still 'not many' people who have apologised?
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Old 15th March 2018, 08:24 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes, it does.
Not in my maths. It's an unacceptable number, but it's not "many."
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Old 15th March 2018, 08:32 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Ten percent according to your post, then the ones you've missed out, like West Yorkshire.
Goign on the accounts of Halifax and Keighley, I wouldn't put WYP in the same category as the other four

Quote:
Then, if go by the population / number of police officers in the relevant forces as opposed to counting each force as equal (which is not an informative measure of the extent of the problem), your percentage jumps to well over 50%.
I'd like to see your working out on that calculation.

Quote:
Then, you didn't mention that the CPS itself has apologised, plus some councils and social services departments.
There have been lots of apologies, but not all apologies are equal, because self-evidently not all cases are equal.

Quote:
And these figures will unquestionably rise, IMO drastically.
It would be surprising if they didn't, but it would be equally surprising if they did not get progressively more historic in nature. There must obviously be a lot of perpetrators still looking over their shoulders, both for the law and those in their own communities.
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Old 15th March 2018, 08:34 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Ten percent according to your post, then the ones you've missed out, like West Yorkshire.

Then, if go by the population / number of police officers in the relevant forces as opposed to counting each force as equal (which is not an informative measure of the extent of the problem), your percentage jumps to well over 50%.

Then, you didn't mention that the CPS itself has apologised, plus some councils and social services departments.

And these figures will unquestionably rise, IMO drastically.

Is it still 'not many' people who have apologised?
The original disputed wording was "many police forces in the UK have been involved in covering up" --- It looks like it's what would usually be called "at least several" police forces, and many individuals within and outside of police departments.
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Old 15th March 2018, 08:55 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I'd like to see your working out on that calculation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...United_Kingdom
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Old 15th March 2018, 09:51 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Your claim:

Quote:
Then, if go by the population / number of police officers in the relevant forces as opposed to counting each force as equal (which is not an informative measure of the extent of the problem), your percentage jumps to well over 50%.
Utter nonsense. The page you cited shows that the four forces I named have between them 23,131 officers out of 132,173 total in England, and 164,156 in the UK (territorial forces only). That's 18% and 14% respectively. Not even remotely close to 50%. If you want the population served split, feel free to post the exact calculations here.
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Old 15th March 2018, 10:39 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Your claim:



Utter nonsense. The page you cited shows that the four forces I named have between them 23,131 officers out of 132,173 total in England, and 164,156 in the UK (territorial forces only). That's 18% and 14% respectively. Not even remotely close to 50%. If you want the population served split, feel free to post the exact calculations here.
I included the Met Police, but on re-checking I see they were just apologising for child protection failures in general, not specifically regarding rape gangs, although some may well have been and probably were.

So let's take your figure of 18%. When 18% of the UK police force to date have apologised for a systemic failure to protect children in the most serious of circumstances, do you see this as a damning indictment of law enforcement for which no excuses can be offered, or a chance to crow about how everyone's making a fuss over nothing?
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Old 15th March 2018, 11:01 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I am not trying to diminish the seriousness of some of these allegations, but I do want to point out that if persuading pretty girls to go partying in the hope of having sex with them at some future time is "grooming", then yes, there's 'a whole lotta that goin' on', and it is hardly limited to dirty, sleazy "Asian" thugs.

Unless, of course, it is when "Asians" are doing it that makes it "grooming".
It is the tactics used that makes it grooming. What was taking place was not just a party where guys and girls hope to cop off with each other and accept they may not get lucky that night.

The party was organised so that the males got to have sex with girls, pretty much whether the girls wanted it or not.

The the means used to achieve that were; drugs/alcohol or bribes with gifts or threats or conning the girl to think she was actually in a loving relationship or combination thereof.
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Old 15th March 2018, 11:37 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Not in my maths. It's an unacceptable number, but it's not "many."
That seems like an entirely unnecessary distinction. Counter-productive, even.
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Old 15th March 2018, 03:04 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I appreciated your informative posts. I don't really understand what the criticism is beyond something like "these facts aren't satisfactorily damning: kindly change the facts to be more horrible".

Okay, how about this. Let us agree that is bad. But surely you agree that doing the opposite is worse right?

So if anything of the sort is done while defining what crimes are occurring can we please err on the side of not whitewashing it??
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Old 16th March 2018, 02:20 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Okay, how about this. Let us agree that is bad. But surely you agree that doing the opposite is worse right?

So if anything of the sort is done while defining what crimes are occurring can we please err on the side of not whitewashing it??
Who here is whitewashing what has happened?
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Old 16th March 2018, 02:40 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I included the Met Police, but on re-checking I see they were just apologising for child protection failures in general, not specifically regarding rape gangs, although some may well have been and probably were.
There are a finite number of localised street grooming gangs, none of them being based in London. The Met is having a problem with sexual abuse and exploitation being rife in London gang culture, but although I've mentioned it before, nobody seems interested in that.

Quote:
So let's take your figure of 18%. When 18% of the UK police force to date have apologised for a systemic failure to protect children in the most serious of circumstances, do you see this as a damning indictment of law enforcement for which no excuses can be offered, or a chance to crow about how everyone's making a fuss over nothing?
It's 18% of English territorial forces, and 18% of UK territorial forces. It is very unlikely now that anything on the scale of the larger gangs/networks such as in Rotherham has somehow escaped detection, given that a number of the much smaller ones elsewhere were uncovered because police forces were more proactive in the wake of Rotherham. Rotherham was unforgivable, simply because the sheer scale of should not have been ignored. Elsewhere there were nothing like the same warning signs, if any.

Wanting to have an accurate picture of what actually happened is not "crow[ing] about how everyone's making a fuss over nothing." That you seem to prefer hyperbole and exaggeration is your own problem.

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Old 16th March 2018, 02:42 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That seems like an entirely unnecessary distinction. Counter-productive, even.
How is tarring non-involved police forces with the same brush productive?
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Old 16th March 2018, 03:54 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
There are a finite number of localised street grooming gangs, none of them being based in London. The Met is having a problem with sexual abuse and exploitation being rife in London gang culture, but although I've mentioned it before, nobody seems interested in that.
I don't know what you're referring to. And if you're right that nobody is interested, what of it? That surely makes the whole situation worse, not better. Are you making an ethnic / cultural point?

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It's 18% of English territorial forces, and 18% of UK territorial forces. It is very unlikely now that anything on the scale of the larger gangs/networks such as in Rotherham has somehow escaped detection
You don't seem to understand. None of these gangs have ever escaped detection; the problem is not detection, it's doing something about it. It's been common knowledge in towns up and down the country for over 30 years that this was going on and nothing was done (aside from, occasionally, persecution of the victims). Still, next to nothing is being done. A failure of detection would at least knock the accusations down to incompetence, rather than wilful indifference and abetment.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
given that a number of the much smaller ones elsewhere were uncovered because police forces were more proactive in the wake of Rotherham. Rotherham was unforgivable, simply because the sheer scale of should not have been ignored. Elsewhere there were nothing like the same warning signs, if any.
Rotherham is typical of towns with that level of Pakistani / Bangladeshi community. Most people realise this now, or are coming round to that fact. For others it appears to take a little longer.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Wanting to have an accurate picture of what actually happened is not "crow[ing] about how everyone's making a fuss over nothing." That you seem to prefer hyperbole and exaggeration is your own problem.
Wanting to have an accurate picture of what happened involves researching the facts, not repeatedly trying to play down the crimes for which you just admitted you don't have a full understanding.
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Old 16th March 2018, 04:45 AM   #256
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10%?


Damn. They have been decimated.
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Old 16th March 2018, 07:47 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
How is tarring non-involved police forces with the same brush productive?
You're changing horses. Your original complaint was that the number of involved police forces was not "many". Nobody said anything about non-involved police forces until later.
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Old 16th March 2018, 07:52 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I don't know what you're referring to. And if you're right that nobody is interested, what of it? That surely makes the whole situation worse, not better. Are you making an ethnic / cultural point?
Yes I am. I'm surprised that you of all people don't get it, given your self-evident fixtation.

Quote:
You don't seem to understand. None of these gangs have ever escaped detection; the problem is not detection, it's doing something about it. It's been common knowledge in towns up and down the country for over 30 years that this was going on and nothing was done (aside from, occasionally, persecution of the victims). Still, next to nothing is being done. A failure of detection would at least knock the accusations down to incompetence, rather than wilful indifference and abetment.
It seems you don't understand what you're quoting. Try rereading it until you do. Clearly the cases we know about have been detected and prosecuted. It would seem unliely that there is anything yet to be detected on the scale of Rotherham or most of teh other larger cases, except in your fevered wish fulfillment.

Quote:
Rotherham is typical of towns with that level of Pakistani / Bangladeshi community. Most people realise this now, or are coming round to that fact. For others it appears to take a little longer.
So which towns would those be that have not already been investigated?
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Old 16th March 2018, 07:54 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're changing horses. Your original complaint was that the number of involved police forces was not "many". Nobody said anything about non-involved police forces until later.
How do you know what constitutes "many" if you don't know the denominator?
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Old 16th March 2018, 08:27 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes I am. I'm surprised that you of all people don't get it, given your self-evident fixtation.
Yes, I do have a fixation with facts, and no, I don't have time to disentangle your obtuse and apparently baseless insinuations.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It seems you don't understand what you're quoting. Try rereading it until you do. Clearly the cases we know about have been detected and prosecuted.
It's self-evident that a case can't be prosecuted unless it's detected. The entire authority-based scandal is that this criminality has been 'detected' for over 30 years and rarely prosecuted.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It would seem unliely that there is anything yet to be detected on the scale of Rotherham or most of teh other larger cases, except in your fevered wish fulfillment.
Something you state with no evidence. How about some links? Fortunately, not many people believe that cases on the scale of that documented only last week are now fully in the past. Rape gang apologists wish they were, of course, because they're rather see kids raped than admit there is a cultural problem with certain foreign ethnicity.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
So which towns would those be that have not already been investigated?
Investigated by whom?
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Old 16th March 2018, 11:07 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
How do you know what constitutes "many" if you don't know the denominator?
Having a denominator doesn't mean tarring the denominator with the same brush as the numerator. I think you may have lost track of what you're complaining about.
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Old 16th March 2018, 12:43 PM   #262
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The BBC has a feature article about this and I'd like to focus on the victims story that they included: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-43400336

Quote:
"I was in cars that were stopped and searched by police with older men and it was never questioned why I was in there or who I was. My name was never asked. I just think if they had been more proactive at points like that, things could have changed earlier.
Since no specific age was mentioned beyond her being gang raped at the age of 16 I'll assume that she was at least 16 years old when these incidents occurred. In the case of traffic stops i don't see why the police would ask for the identity of any passenger unless they suspect that they have committed, been a victim of or otherwise witnessed a criminal offence.

Again, in the case she was 16 years old, there's presumably nothing illegal with being in a car with adult male strangers even if they are swarthy Asians. They have yet to impose sharia law in the UK, at least for now.

Quote:
"I was also going to the doctor and the youth sexual health clinic a couple of times a week for three years and getting the morning-after pill.

"Nobody asked any questions.
If she's old enough to have sex then it's obvious why they didn't ask any questions: they would presumably assume that it's consensual sex that she's engaging in and they have no business being nosy about their private sex life.

What would they ask her anyways? "Hey, if your boyfriend likes to have raw bareback sex, then have you considered the possibility of him having a vasectomy, so you won't have to take the pill?"

Quote:
"I had two abortions and again, no questions were asked as to what was going on in my life."
Again as above. It sounds really harsh, because it is, but unless they tell others about their troubles then there's nothing that can be done about it. If you are old enough to have a sex life then you are (presumably) old enough to be afforded the privacy associated with it. It really shouldn't matter whether they are 16, 18, 20 or 35 years old.

In other cases showcased in the article there were pretty clear examples of dereliction of duty and professional misconduct. That's not to say that police officers should be expected, let alone obligated, to be busy bodies interrogating people over their private intimate relationships and performing spot checks in the hope that they can sniff out anything suggesting improper or abusive relationships.
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Old 16th March 2018, 01:04 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
The BBC has a feature article about this and I'd like to focus on the victims story that they included: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-43400336



Since no specific age was mentioned beyond her being gang raped at the age of 16 I'll assume that she was at least 16 years old when these incidents occurred. In the case of traffic stops i don't see why the police would ask for the identity of any passenger unless they suspect that they have committed, been a victim of or otherwise witnessed a criminal offence.

Again, in the case she was 16 years old, there's presumably nothing illegal with being in a car with adult male strangers even if they are swarthy Asians. They have yet to impose sharia law in the UK, at least for now.
Why did you skip to the ambiguous part, rather than quote some of the examples at the start of the article such as:

Quote:
One 13-year-old girl, "with disrupted clothing", was found by police in a house in the early hours with a group of men who had given her vodka. A neighbour had called the police after hearing the girl scream. The teenager was arrested for being drunk and disorderly. The men were not questioned.
and

Quote:
A 12-year-old girl was found, being plied with alcohol, in a car with a 22-year-old man. He had indecent images of her on his phone. No action was taken.
That last example alone would have got the culprit at least two years in jail in any normal situation, i.e. where the culprit is not Pakistani.

You mention it at the end but why focus on the equivocal parts?
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Old 16th March 2018, 04:11 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Why did you skip to the ambiguous part, rather than quote some of the examples at the start of the article such as:



and



That last example alone would have got the culprit at least two years in jail in any normal situation, i.e. where the culprit is not Pakistani.

You mention it at the end but why focus on the equivocal parts?
I don't feel i have anything to add when it comes to quite obvious examples of police misconduct, nor do i feel any need to engage in value-signaling by declaring my bafflement at their actions.

On the other hand this more nuanced story was published by the BBC without any elaboration at all. The victim of sexual abuse here apparently wanted someone to confront her and ask about how she felt or how she was doing. She wanted someone to save her yet in the situations she mentioned there were really no reason to expect that of them. I understand that she might've felt let down, frustrated and ultimately hopeless because she simply slipped by unnoticed without eliciting any response, but it's important to explain that there are good reasons why they didn't do so.
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Old 17th March 2018, 04:11 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
On the other hand this more nuanced story was published by the BBC without any elaboration at all. The victim of sexual abuse here apparently wanted someone to confront her and ask about how she felt or how she was doing. She wanted someone to save her yet in the situations she mentioned there were really no reason to expect that of them.
You seem to be reading a different article. The one you linked to states clearly that the girl was first targeted by an individual who

Quote:
...started violently raping me, he would beat me with his belt if I didn't let him rape me...
then she was

Quote:
quickly moved on to being sold to men maybe two or three times a night. I was taken to a place I can only describe as a 'rape house' which was set up for the purpose of young girls being sold to men
She further states that

Quote:
They said they'd rape my mum and rape my sisters. They knew all about my family. There was just no escape at all.
followed by her being

Quote:
...gang-raped just after I turned 16
Since you're fixated on the age issue, maybe explain why you made the frankly absurd assumption that all the abuse she detailed prior to her being gang raped 'just after [she] turned 16' occurred after her 16th birthday, when any interpretation even impinging on the credible is that she was abused for many months or perhaps years prior to her being 16.

Then if you can write a paragraph or two about the 'good reasons' why any 16 year old living in a civilised society should not expect help when she is threatened, beaten, repeatedly raped, prostituted, forced to undergo two abortions and driven to attempt suicide, and why you consider it 'virtue signalling' to even acknowledge this may be indicative of a societal problem.
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Old 17th March 2018, 06:34 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yes, I do have a fixation with facts, and no, I don't have time to disentangle your obtuse and apparently baseless insinuations.
Really? You seem to have plenty of time to rabbit on about this and other subjects here.

Quote:
It's self-evident that a case can't be prosecuted unless it's detected. The entire authority-based scandal is that this criminality has been 'detected' for over 30 years and rarely prosecuted.
Not all the cases of localised grooming fit that pattern. Some clearly were ignored, but others were clearly not known about until the revelations about the former cases came to light. You seem to be of the opinion that every singal case has been long-running and systematically "ignored," which is just not true.

Quote:
Something you state with no evidence. How about some links?
Links to what? I said I think it very unlikely that anything like Rotherham in terms of scale has yet to be discovered. Do you think otherwise? Can you "prove" what you think?

Quote:
Fortunately, not many people believe that cases on the scale of that documented only last week are now fully in the past.
That would make any such perpetrators staggeringly stupid, then.

Quote:
Rape gang apologists wish they were, of course, because they're rather see kids raped than admit there is a cultural problem with certain foreign ethnicity.
Stop projecting nonsense and insults.

Quote:
Investigated by whom?
Why should I answer your question, when you didn't answer mine?
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Old 17th March 2018, 06:41 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
No, that would be an obtuse interpretation of what I wrote.
Then quote and paste here whatever it is you wrote which best represents your views on this subject. Have thousand been killed, raped, become victims of suicide, arson or not? These are not trivial claims. Now state here clearly what you think has been happening, in terms which have the clarity appropriate to the gravity of the situation you describe.
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Old 17th March 2018, 08:09 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
You seem to be reading a different article. The one you linked to states clearly that the girl was first targeted by an individual who



then she was



She further states that



followed by her being



Since you're fixated on the age issue, maybe explain why you made the frankly absurd assumption that all the abuse she detailed prior to her being gang raped 'just after [she] turned 16' occurred after her 16th birthday, when any interpretation even impinging on the credible is that she was abused for many months or perhaps years prior to her being 16.
The author should have clearly stated that she was underage at the time. If anything it's quite possible that she was 17 or 20 years old when she was in "the car with the adult men". Since, despite your assertion, there's nothing that suggests that it's in chronological order.

Where i live it's perfectly legal to have group sex with a 15 year old white British girl or boy even if you happen to be smelly, fat Muslim immigrants from Pakistan (there are not many Pakistanis living in Sweden though). Although the age of consent is 16 in the UK, this one of the reasons why i find it really important to differentiate sexual abuse against someone aged 16 rather than 15.

Although most civil servants who come are in contact with minors in Sweden are legally obligated to report any suspected abusive conditions (although not those that they came in contact with while off duty), they cannot of course simply assume that any sexual relationships are abusive simply because of the ethnicity, religious affiliation or skin pigmentation of the people involved. If they happen to be underage then it's all but irrelevant why they reported it since having sex with someone under the age of 15 is a crime, except of course if the age difference between the people involved is minimal.

Quote:
Then if you can write a paragraph or two about the 'good reasons' why any 16 year old living in a civilised society should not expect help when she is threatened, beaten, repeatedly raped, prostituted, forced to undergo two abortions and driven to attempt suicide, and why you consider it 'virtue signalling' to even acknowledge this may be indicative of a societal problem.
Well, since you completely and inexplicably ignored that i explained why there were perfectly good reasons for the police or social services not to "ask any questions" in the situations mentioned:

In a "civilised society" we have this thing called privacy. If you are deemed old enough to have your own sex life without law enforcement and social services intervening then you are entitled to the privacy associated with such a sex life. Whether you happen to be 16 or 25 years old and are in an abusive intimate relationship with someone, who beats and pressures you into prostituting yourself, there's generally nothing that can be done unless you (or someone else) reports it to the police. This does not change just because they threatened to rape your mother, sister, brother, father or even that they would burn down your home.

Why don't you actually explain what the police should've done? Assume that any sexual relationship between "Asians" and anyone that looks even remotely young is abusive and constitutes grooming until it can be proven to be otherwise? Should girls and boys under the age of 18 in such communities be required to have mandatory counseling and police interrogations in order to try and sniff out any and all "improper" familial and intimate relationships?

Back in ye olde good times here in Sweden we used to have mandatory yearly catecheticals where the parish priest made sure everyone could read and understand the bible. Bible knowledge and other information that was deemed relevant was recorded for posterity. I guess the British could have something similar. They'd only interrogate swarthy immigrants from south-asia though. For example, if there's a teenage boy who looks and sounds a little fruity, then ask him if he's been pressured into chem-sex parties. Yeah, that sounds doable.
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Old 17th March 2018, 08:41 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Really? You seem to have plenty of time to rabbit on about this and other subjects here.


Not all the cases of localised grooming fit that pattern. Some clearly were ignored, but others were clearly not known about until the revelations about the former cases came to light.
Wrong. The police and social services were aware in the majority of the cases. If that were not true there would not be a scandal, would there? What do you imagine all these authorities apologised for? Have you even read the reports?

Here's a thread where I discussed one of the reports and related issues in detail with A'isha, and whilst I believe she was totally wrong, she at least bothered to research the topic before holding forth.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...therham&page=4

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You seem to be of the opinion that every singal case has been long-running and systematically "ignored," which is just not true.
Which ones were not long-running and not ignored, then? Let's see you start to support your claims.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Links to what? I said I think it very unlikely that anything like Rotherham in terms of scale has yet to be discovered. Do you think otherwise? Can you "prove" what you think?
You made the claim! Support it! Why would I comment on the ponderings you've excavated from the back of your brain unless they are based on at least some evidence? Post some evidence and I may then be moved to respond by quoting a fraction of the overwhelming expert testimony that states these cases are just the tip of the iceberg.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
That would make any such perpetrators staggeringly stupid, then.


Stop projecting nonsense and insults.


Why should I answer your question, when you didn't answer mine?
Let's see some evidence. I won't hold my breath.
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Old 17th March 2018, 08:42 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Then quote and paste here whatever it is you wrote which best represents your views on this subject.
No. You'd do better reading up on the topic rather than posting smart-ass replies.
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Old 17th March 2018, 09:07 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
The author should have clearly stated that she was underage at the time.
The author probably thought, and rightly so, that anybody who doubted she was 'underage' from the clear evidence stated had an agenda that a single extra fact would not discourage.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
If anything it's quite possible that she was 17 or 20 years old when she was in "the car with the adult men". Since, despite your assertion, there's nothing that suggests that it's in chronological order.
So it's quite possible she was 13 or 14 when she was 'in the car with the adult men' too. The fact is much of the account is in clear chronological order and it is equally obvious that the abuse started prior to her being 16.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Where i live it's perfectly legal to have group sex with a 15 year old white British girl or boy even if you happen to be smelly, fat Muslim immigrants from Pakistan
Sounds idyllic, although personally I wouldn't boast about living somewhere where a 15 year old girl can be banged by a car-full of 50 year old Pakistanis, or indeed 50 year old anybodies, and nobody bats an eyelid.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
(there are not many Pakistanis living in Sweden though). Although the age of consent is 16 in the UK, this one of the reasons why i find it really important to differentiate sexual abuse against someone aged 16 rather than 15.
It's not remotely important to make that distinction. The legal age of consent deals with the legal age of, you know, consent, not the legal age of rape, violence and forced prostitution. If a cop who sees a very young white girl in a car filled with adult Pakistanis doesn't at the very least ask a question or make a few inquiries then they should hand in their badge. Especially since that cop will have known exactly what was going on; it has been common knowledge for 30+ years.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Although most civil servants who come are in contact with minors in Sweden are legally obligated to report any suspected abusive conditions (although not those that they came in contact with while off duty), they cannot of course simply assume that any sexual relationships are abusive simply because of the ethnicity, religious affiliation or skin pigmentation of the people involved.
No they don't assume, they do their job and that starts with asking questions. Just like a cop might enquire about your intentions if you're walking down a street that's had 50 recent burglaries wearing a balaclava and carrying a sack full of large items over your shoulder. Maybe in Sweden the cop would give you a hand to carry it.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
If they happen to be underage then it's all but irrelevant why they reported it since having sex with someone under the age of 15 is a crime, except of course if the age difference between the people involved is minimal.

Well, since you completely and inexplicably ignored that i explained why there were perfectly good reasons for the police or social services not to "ask any questions" in the situations mentioned:

In a "civilised society" we have this thing called privacy. If you are deemed old enough to have your own sex life without law enforcement and social services intervening then you are entitled to the privacy associated with such a sex life.
This is getting too ridiculous for words. I don't see anybody advocating SWAT teams bursting into people's bedrooms and quizzing them about their sex lives. This is young half-dressed teenagers in cars full of Pakistani gang members at midnight in a car park, for Christ's sake.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Whether you happen to be 16 or 25 years old and are in an abusive intimate relationship with someone, who beats and pressures you into prostituting yourself, there's generally nothing that can be done unless you (or someone else) reports it to the police. This does not change just because they threatened to rape your mother, sister, brother, father or even that they would burn down your home.
Maybe that's the case in Sweden (I very much doubt it) but it certainly is not the case in the UK. There is no requirement for the victim to testify if the evidence is available from other sources.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Why don't you actually explain what the police should've done? Assume that any sexual relationship between "Asians" and anyone that looks even remotely young is abusive and constitutes grooming until it can be proven to be otherwise? Should girls and boys under the age of 18 in such communities be required to have mandatory counseling and police interrogations in order to try and sniff out any and all "improper" familial and intimate relationships?
I'm almost convinced you believe the crap you're coming out with. I'm not going to waste my time any further with you, I should have read the whole post before I started to reply.
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Old 17th March 2018, 10:12 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Wrong. The police and social services were aware in the majority of the cases. If that were not true there would not be a scandal, would there? What do you imagine all these authorities apologised for? Have you even read the reports?
I went through all the Wikipedia articles on localised grooming cases. Only the four I highlighted seem to fit what you allege. Others only came to light because of proactive investigations after Rotherham, and there was nothing like the prior avoidance culture. If you want to keep maintaining your viewpoint that every single case has involved ignoring the same amount of warnings signs as Rotherham, then it's up to you to tabulate them.

Quote:
You made the claim! Support it! Why would I comment on the ponderings you've excavated from the back of your brain unless they are based on at least some evidence? Post some evidence and I may then be moved to respond by quoting a fraction of the overwhelming expert testimony that states these cases are just the tip of the iceberg.

Let's see some evidence. I won't hold my breath.
You want me to prove that things are not still happening on anything like the scale that you think they are? How does that work?
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Old 17th March 2018, 10:15 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
If a cop who sees a very young white girl in a car filled with adult Pakistanis doesn't at the very least ask a question or make a few inquiries then they should hand in their badge. Especially since that cop will have known exactly what was going on; it has been common knowledge for 30+ years.
I think this perfectly encapsulates the racist and circular nature of your "reasoning."
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Old 17th March 2018, 10:28 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Who here is whitewashing what has happened?

First of all, I hope you aren't implying that all whitewashing has to be intentional... It's possible to have written something in a way that, to many people, is clearly whitewashing without realizing it. Just because that is the language you are used to.

Secondly, have you read about any of these cover-ups that have been occurring?? They are jam packed full of whitewashing.
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Old 17th March 2018, 10:43 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Not all the cases of localised grooming fit that pattern. Some clearly were ignored, but others were clearly not known about until the revelations about the former cases came to light. You seem to be of the opinion that every singal case has been long-running and systematically "ignored," which is just not true.
Frankly it doesn't matter whether "every single case has been long-running and systematically ignored". It only matters that some cases were long-running and were definitely systematically ignored.
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Old 17th March 2018, 11:11 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I went through all the Wikipedia articles on localised grooming cases. Only the four I highlighted seem to fit what you allege. Others only came to light because of proactive investigations after Rotherham, and there was nothing like the prior avoidance culture. If you want to keep maintaining your viewpoint that every single case has involved ignoring the same amount of warnings signs as Rotherham, then it's up to you to tabulate them.
That tired old canard. I spend ages detailing massive failings across the country and you discover a couple of minor cases that comprise one percent of the whole and it's gotcha! Told you so! No thanks, not interested.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You want me to prove that things are not still happening on anything like the scale that you think they are? How does that work?
I don't know, you claimed it so you're best place to account for it. If you can't justify what you claim then I suggest you don't assert it in the first place.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I think this perfectly encapsulates the racist and circular nature of your "reasoning."
That's right, I'm racist for suggesting that a very young white girl found in the company of a car full of adult Pakistanis in a car park at midnight warrants a question to be asked by the discovering officer. You're not fooling anyone. Racist on one hand, so be it, vs supporting child rape on the other. I'm happy with my side of the fence, how about you?
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Old 17th March 2018, 11:20 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Quote:
"I was also going to the doctor and the youth sexual health clinic a couple of times a week for three years and getting the morning-after pill.

"Nobody asked any questions.
If she's old enough to have sex then it's obvious why they didn't ask any questions: they would presumably assume that it's consensual sex that she's engaging in and they have no business being nosy about their private sex life.

What would they ask her anyways? "Hey, if your boyfriend likes to have raw bareback sex, then have you considered the possibility of him having a vasectomy, so you won't have to take the pill?"
This is not the regular anti-conception pill she's talking about. She's talking about the morning-after pill, which is only meant as an emergency, last-resort, after the fact, measure. Going to the clinic a couple of times a week, week-in, week-out, to get that should certainly raise red flags.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Quote:
"I had two abortions and again, no questions were asked as to what was going on in my life."
Again as above. It sounds really harsh, because it is, but unless they tell others about their troubles then there's nothing that can be done about it. If you are old enough to have a sex life then you are (presumably) old enough to be afforded the privacy associated with it. It really shouldn't matter whether they are 16, 18, 20 or 35 years old.
There's no definite timeline mentioned in the piece, but as Baron already noted, her story begins way before she was 16. It's very likely at least one of those abortions was before she was 16. I wonder why no-one questioned her WTH she was doing - not out of an idea of "abortion is evil", but what she was doing wrong that she had to resort to an abortion twice in a row. That would not necessarily be out of abuse, but could equally be the result of ignorance or carelessness in a consenting relation.

The account is murky on details. For instance, in this passage:
Quote:
"I was gang-raped just after I turned 16 and that was probably the worst thing that has ever happened to me. After that I tried to commit suicide. People would say to me 'was that a cry for help?' and I would say 'no - I genuinely wanted to die' because I thought that was the only way out.
Did no-one ask the obvious follow-up question: "why do you want to die?".

There seems, in her case, to have been a break-down in communication. She complains no-one asks about what's going on her life, but equally, she doesn't seem to have confided to anyone about that either; not to her parents, not to the healthcare workers she met. not to anyone. About the suicide, she says "I wanted to die", but not "I wanted to die because I'm in the grip of a sexual abuse gang".
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Old 17th March 2018, 11:21 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
The author probably thought, and rightly so, that anybody who doubted she was 'underage' from the clear evidence stated had an agenda that a single extra fact would not discourage.



So it's quite possible she was 13 or 14 when she was 'in the car with the adult men' too. The fact is much of the account is in clear chronological order and it is equally obvious that the abuse started prior to her being 16
.
Oh okay then.

Quote:
Sounds idyllic, although personally I wouldn't boast about living somewhere where a 15 year old girl can be banged by a car-full of 50 year old Pakistanis, or indeed 50 year old anybodies, and nobody bats an eyelid.
I just love how obvious it is that you really don't object to them being gang-banged by 50 year olds as much as it's about them being gang-banged by 50 year old Pakistanis. Your prejudice and xenophobia is really telling.

Quote:
It's not remotely important to make that distinction. The legal age of consent deals with the legal age of, you know, consent, not the legal age of rape, violence and forced prostitution. If a cop who sees a very young white girl in a car filled with adult Pakistanis doesn't at the very least ask a question or make a few inquiries then they should hand in their badge. Especially since that cop will have known exactly what was going on; it has been common knowledge for 30+ years.

No they don't assume, they do their job and that starts with asking questions. Just like a cop might enquire about your intentions if you're walking down a street that's had 50 recent burglaries wearing a balaclava and carrying a sack full of large items over your shoulder. Maybe in Sweden the cop would give you a hand to carry it.
Right. White teenage British girl + pakis = Muslamic rape gang. Got it. Case closed.

Quote:
This is getting too ridiculous for words. I don't see anybody advocating SWAT teams bursting into people's bedrooms and quizzing them about their sex lives. This is young half-dressed teenagers in cars full of Pakistani gang members at midnight in a car park, for Christ's sake.
Exactly. It's not about protecting children and youth from sexual abuse, it's about protecting children and youth (or at least white British ones) from being sexually abused by swarthy Muslims.

Quote:
Maybe that's the case in Sweden (I very much doubt it) but it certainly is not the case in the UK. There is no requirement for the victim to testify if the evidence is available from other sources.
Please do explain how the police would be able to suspect that someone is being abused physically, emotionally, sexually or otherwise without the victim, or someone close to them, reporting it?

You can't prosecute anyone without at the very least having a criminal investigation beforehand. Merely being in a intimate relationship with "pakis" isn't, and certainly shouldn't, be considered indications of abuse which would warrant opening an criminal investigation.

Quote:
I'm almost convinced you believe the crap you're coming out with. I'm not going to waste my time any further with you, I should have read the whole post before I started to reply.
I'll take this as an admission that you aren't interested in the least to discuss this subject with an open mind and a view towards coming up with actual credible solutions.

Pathetic.
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Old 17th March 2018, 11:32 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Frankly it doesn't matter whether "every single case has been long-running and systematically ignored". It only matters that some cases were long-running and were definitely systematically ignored.
Exactly. Some cases were ignored by the sin of commission: The authorities knew they should investigate, but did not.

Other cases were ignored by the sin of omission: Had the former cases been investigated promptly and properly, the latter would have been discovered and dealt with much sooner.
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Old 17th March 2018, 11:47 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
This is not the regular anti-conception pill she's talking about. She's talking about the morning-after pill, which is only meant as an emergency, last-resort, after the fact, measure. Going to the clinic a couple of times a week, week-in, week-out, to get that should certainly raise red flags.


There's no definite timeline mentioned in the piece, but as Baron already noted, her story begins way before she was 16. It's very likely at least one of those abortions was before she was 16. I wonder why no-one questioned her WTH she was doing - not out of an idea of "abortion is evil", but what she was doing wrong that she had to resort to an abortion twice in a row. That would not necessarily be out of abuse, but could equally be the result of ignorance or carelessness in a consenting relation.

The account is murky on details. For instance, in this passage:

Did no-one ask the obvious follow-up question: "why do you want to die?".

There seems, in her case, to have been a break-down in communication. She complains no-one asks about what's going on her life, but equally, she doesn't seem to have confided to anyone about that either; not to her parents, not to the healthcare workers she met. not to anyone. About the suicide, she says "I wanted to die", but not "I wanted to die because I'm in the grip of a sexual abuse gang".
I'm not going to say that they should never ask any questions about young peoples sex lives, including those that are adults, especially if they are considered a regular at youth health clinics. It's common for victims of long-term sexual, or other forms of, abuse to show signs of it in one way or another. I can fully agree that when it comes to someone who has had multiple abortions, let alone a suicide attempt, it might be more than prudent to ask and do an investigation into the cause behind it. Although it's important to note that if the person in question doesn't want to cooperate it can be pretty hard to do anything, even in cases of spousal abuse for example.

You have to balance between, on one hand, being too nosy and suspect that you risk making youth run off because they don't want their private sex lives being exposed. On the other hand you don't want to be so completely indifferent that you don't even bother to subtly ask questions when there's signs that everything isn't right.

Especially when it comes to some immigrant communities you have to take into account that sex outside of marriage, being gay or simply being seen as a "slut" can result in serious repercussion from their family and relatives. In one extreme case recently in Sweden a father was murdered with a pair of scissors by a relative because he wouldn't kill his own daughter for blackening their clans reputation, since rumors were apparently swirling around that she was "promiscuous" and supposedly had made out with some fellow student.

In fact this one of the reasons why sexual abuse and exploitation of this kind is more common among social conservative immigrant groups: they tend to be extremely fearful of their reputation and are thus easy to blackmail. There was a "riot" in Sweden a couple of years ago because an immigrant teenage girl was accusing other, mostly immigrant, teenage girls on social media of being promiscuous whores. If the people in question were ethnic Swedes it wouldn't cause nearly as much commotion.

It's also quite possible that there's a lack of communication between different actors here. Those she was in contact with didn't necessarily have the full picture and only saw fragmented parts of a larger problem.
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