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Old 19th March 2018, 10:58 AM   #1
Ron Swanson
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Self-Driving Uber Car Kills Arizona Pedestrian

Self-Driving Uber Car Kills Arizona Pedestrian

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/19/t...-fatality.html
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Old 19th March 2018, 11:04 AM   #2
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I for one welcome our robot overlords.
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Old 19th March 2018, 11:09 AM   #3
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article seems to totally overlook this part:

Quote:
The Uber vehicle was in autonomous mode with a human safety driver at the wheel when it struck the woman
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Old 19th March 2018, 11:10 AM   #4
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Too ambitious too soon.
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Old 19th March 2018, 11:17 AM   #5
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The victim was crossing an eight-lane road at night, outside of a crosswalk, for whatever that is worth. There's a two-mile stretch there with no crosswalks, according to the Slate article.
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Old 19th March 2018, 11:55 AM   #6
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Quote:
The victim was crossing an eight-lane road at night, outside of a crosswalk, for whatever that is worth
This is exactly where an autonomous vehicle should work better than a human....apparently neither sorted it
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Old 19th March 2018, 12:29 PM   #7
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This will set the cause back. It was bound to happen sooner or later. You know how people are. You can argue till you're blue in the face that statistically they're much safer, but they'll just think of that guy, run down by the self-driving car. Or worse: you stuck in an autonomous car, helpless, while it malfunctions and careens out of control.
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Old 19th March 2018, 12:30 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The victim was crossing an eight-lane road at night, outside of a crosswalk, for whatever that is worth. There's a two-mile stretch there with no crosswalks, according to the Slate article.
An eight-lane road???
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Old 19th March 2018, 12:34 PM   #9
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~5,300 pedestrians are killed by human drivers every year in the US alone averaging out to a death just over every hour and a half.

One person is killed by a prototype driverless car "OMG SKYNET OMG BLACK MIRROR OMG THERE ARE SOME THINGS MAN IS NOT MEANT TO KNOWN OMG THE HUBRIS OMG YOUR SO PREOCCUPIED WITH IF THEY COULD THEY DIDN'T ASK IF THEY SHOULD..."
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Old 19th March 2018, 12:38 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
An eight-lane road???
That's what the Slate article says. A center lane for sit in while waiting to make left turns, some right turn lanes. Three lanes in each direction, maybe? That would not be odd in a city or decent sized town.

Looking at it on Google Earth, there is an intersection in that general area with a right-turn lane off the southbound, two southbound lanes, two left-turn lanes off the southbound direction, two northbound lanes and one northbound lane for cars turning onto the street to accelerate on before merging. Not very unusual.
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Old 19th March 2018, 12:41 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
That's what the Slate article says. A center lane for sit in while waiting to make left turns, some right turn lanes. Three lanes in each direction, maybe? That would not be odd in a city or decent sized town.

Looking at it on Google Earth, there is an intersection in that general area with a right-turn lane off the southbound, two southbound lanes, two left-turn lanes off the southbound direction, two northbound lanes and one northbound lane for cars turning onto the street to accelerate on before merging. Not very unusual.
For some reason, I was thinking eight lanes in each direction.
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Old 19th March 2018, 01:41 PM   #12
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Not meaning to be cold and unfeeling, but many pedestrians are knocked down and killed by cars every year so why is this a big deal?
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Old 19th March 2018, 01:43 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
~5,300 pedestrians are killed by human drivers every year in the US alone averaging out to a death just over every hour and a half.

One person is killed by a prototype driverless car "OMG SKYNET OMG BLACK MIRROR OMG THERE ARE SOME THINGS MAN IS NOT MEANT TO KNOWN OMG THE HUBRIS OMG YOUR SO PREOCCUPIED WITH IF THEY COULD THEY DIDN'T ASK IF THEY SHOULD..."
Out of millions of cars in the US. Another way to look at it is to ask if there are 5300 times more conventional cars than driverless. I think there are. How is the ratio now?

I think the OP raises the reasonable question of why did this happen, and how is responsibility assigned
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Old 19th March 2018, 01:47 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
~5,300 pedestrians are killed by human drivers every year in the US alone averaging out to a death just over every hour and a half.

One person is killed by a prototype driverless car "OMG SKYNET OMG BLACK MIRROR OMG THERE ARE SOME THINGS MAN IS NOT MEANT TO KNOWN OMG THE HUBRIS OMG YOUR SO PREOCCUPIED WITH IF THEY COULD THEY DIDN'T ASK IF THEY SHOULD..."
These are my sentiments as well. Self-driving cars are risky compared to what? People driving cars? Things need to be put into perspective and relative risks.
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Old 19th March 2018, 01:55 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Not meaning to be cold and unfeeling, but many pedestrians are knocked down and killed by cars every year so why is this a big deal?
Because it's technology and evil!

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think the OP raises the reasonable question of why did this happen, and how is responsibility assigned
Self driving cars will never equal human drivers until they can program a self driving car to go on the internet and argue about the trolley problem.

If we can reduce pedestrian deaths I don't give a toss that we don't have a framework to assign blame to the deaths that do happen.

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Old 19th March 2018, 01:56 PM   #16
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Was she riding a bicycle or what? I keep seeing a pic of a car that hit a bicycle associated with this story.

https://www.abc15.com/news/arizona-p...rash-overnight

I have always been wary of these human attendant drivers in autonomous vehicles.

It seems to me that the human is always going to be late to react because of the expectation that the car will take care of the problem.
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Old 19th March 2018, 01:59 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Out of millions of cars in the US. Another way to look at it is to ask if there are 5300 times more conventional cars than driverless. I think there are. How is the ratio now?
Still pretty darn good.

Quote:
But how safe is it for people to ride in autonomous vehicles? The qualitative answer is “pretty darn safe.” Waymo has logged over two million miles on U.S. streets and has only had fault in one accident, making its cars by far the lowest at-fault rate of any driver class on the road— about 10 times lower than our safest demographic of human drivers (60–69 year-olds) and 40 times lower than new drivers, not to mention the obvious benefits gained from eliminating drunk drivers.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b03b105b44bc6b

As it stands the only anomolous bit of data against self driving cars is, get this, that human drivers tend to hit them more often because, and I'm not making this up, they are often taken off guard by the fact that self driving cars obey the law in situations where a human would tend not to.

And these are early prototype systems which are only going to get better as technology advances and data on their use is collected.

But there was a Black Mirror episode about self driving cars and that was scawy!
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Old 19th March 2018, 02:00 PM   #18
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http://metro.co.uk/2018/03/19/self-d...-road-7400145/

There is definitely a mangled bicycle at the scene.

Was she riding it or walking it?
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Old 19th March 2018, 02:03 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because it's technology and evil!



Self driving cars will never equal human drivers until they can program a self driving car to go on the internet and argue about the trolley problem.

If we can reduce pedestrian deaths I don't give a toss that we don't have a framework to assign blame to the deaths that do happen.

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/self_driving_issues.png
Ok, but based on that 1v 5300 fatality figure, I'm not sure it is reducing deaths, at least proportionally.

If driverless reduce casualties, that's great. Fantastic even. But the liability question is still interesting. Could maintanence personnel who service the car be found to be criminally negligent for improperly servicing sensors?
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Old 19th March 2018, 02:06 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Still pretty darn good.


https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b03b105b44bc6b

As it stands the only anomolous bit of data against self driving cars is, get this, that human drivers tend to hit them more often because, and I'm not making this up, they are often taken off guard by the fact that self driving cars obey the law in situations where a human would tend not to.

And these are early prototype systems which are only going to get better as technology advances and data on their use is collected.

But there was a Black Mirror episode about self driving cars and that was scawy!
Now that is intriguing
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Old 19th March 2018, 02:07 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If driverless reduce casualties, that's great. Fantastic even. But the liability question is still interesting. Could maintanence personnel who service the car be found to be criminally negligent for improperly servicing sensors?
I mean sure in the same way that bus, train, and aircraft (and I'm assuming maritime) maintenance and support personnel have been given some level of culpability for incidents in the past.

Sure the laws will have to be adjusted, but not completely rebuilt from scratch.
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Old 19th March 2018, 02:14 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Out of millions of cars in the US. Another way to look at it is to ask if there are 5300 times more conventional cars than driverless. I think there are. How is the ratio now?

I think the OP raises the reasonable question of why did this happen, and how is responsibility assigned
Under the same circumstances, If it had been a regular driver, and they stopped and called for help, the responsibility would have been assigned to the deceased in most jurisdictions..
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Old 19th March 2018, 02:18 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
http://metro.co.uk/2018/03/19/self-d...-road-7400145/

There is definitely a mangled bicycle at the scene.

Was she riding it or walking it?
It has a lot of bags attached. I've seen homeless people with so many bags and things tied to their bikes that they can't ride them, they use it more like a cart. I am guessing she was walking the bike. Given the time of the night, I don't think we can rule out that the pedestrian might have been chemically impaired.

I feel a bit dirty for writing that, like I am blaming the pedestrian. I'm not, the pedestrian is rarely solely at fault for this sort of thing. I am really curious about self driving cars, it has a chance to be a very disruptive technology, so I am very curious about this accident. I guess they'll have more information eventually and we'll know more then.
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Old 19th March 2018, 02:59 PM   #24
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The simple fact is that people rate their chances of crossing a road of driven cars extremely highly. Heh, it always works for me!
Driver less cars are a different kettle of fish, and always will be.
More like swimming with sharks that only eat humans sometimes.
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Old 19th March 2018, 03:07 PM   #25
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What we don't know, at least from news articles I've read, is whether it was even possible for the car to be stopped in time. Sometimes a pedestrian steps in front of a car so close that it's not physically possible -- for a human driver or a robot driver -- to stop or swerve in time to avoid hitting them. This may or may not have been the case in this accident. I've had a few close calls. I once had somebody -- talking on his phone -- walk into a busy city street against a red light. I managed to miss him, but it was way too close. He didn't show any sign that he even realized how close he came to getting killed or seriously injured.

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Old 19th March 2018, 03:16 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Now that is intriguing
Yes, it is. There was a fascinating episode of Horizon (I think) on the BBC last year which explained the various levels of autonomy in cars and one topic they covered was the difficulty of teaching vehicles to fit in with the differences in driving cultures between countries with essentially the same driving rules.

Another thing they touched on, by the way, was level 3 autonomy (where the human driver is expected to be ready to take over whenever the car can't cope). The human mostly has nothing to do, becomes bored and so won't have been paying any attention when the car suddenly needs them to take over. I think I read elsewhere (maybe even on here) that Ford, amongst others, have ditched any research into level 3 autonomous cars as their test drivers keep falling asleep. They tried putting co-drivers in the cars, whose sole job was to keep the drivers awake, and they fell asleep too.
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Old 19th March 2018, 03:19 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Out of millions of cars in the US. Another way to look at it is to ask if there are 5300 times more conventional cars than driverless. I think there are. How is the ratio now?
I think miles driven per fatality would be a better measure than number of cars.

That said I don't have any statistics on this. And with only one fatality for driverless it is way too early to determine a typical value.
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Old 19th March 2018, 04:14 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
An eight-lane road???
No 8 lane road has any business having pedestrians crossing it.
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Old 19th March 2018, 04:16 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
For some reason, I was thinking eight lanes in each direction.
Have to be a damned big city to need roads like that!!!
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Old 19th March 2018, 05:40 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Have to be a damned big city to need roads like that!!!
Roosevelt Blvd., which is a major thoroughfare here in Northeast Philly, is 14 lanes wide in places. There are frequent pedestrian fatalities.
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Old 19th March 2018, 05:48 PM   #31
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CNN: A self-driving Uber SUV struck and killed 49-year-old Elaine Herzberg as she walked her bicycle across a street in Tempe, Arizona, Sunday night, according to the Tempe police. The department is investigating the crash.

Rafael Vasquez, a 44-year-old test driver from Uber, was behind the wheel of the Volvo XC90 SUV at the time, the police said.

Based on preliminary information, the car was going approximately 40 mph in a 35 mph zone, according to Tempe Police Detective Lily Duran.

Police say the investigation does not at this time show significant signs of the SUV slowing before the crash. The Maricopa County Attorney's Office will determine whether charges will be filed.
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Old 19th March 2018, 06:10 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I have always been wary of these human attendant drivers in autonomous vehicles.

It seems to me that the human is always going to be late to react because of the expectation that the car will take care of the problem.
Reminds me somewhat of the old joke about the totally automatic airliner. It still has a co-pilot in the right seat, but the captain is replaced with a large dog

The pilot is there simply to communicate with the cabin crew and ATC. The dog's sole job is to bite the co-pilot if he tries to touch any of the flight controls.
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Old 19th March 2018, 06:15 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Too ambitious too soon.
Indeed. I have watched amazed that they made so much progress so quickly, and that it appeared that we would have self driving cars on our streets sooner rather than later, but in the back of my mind there was a voice saying that they weren't really ready.

I am very surprised it was a pedestrian, though. I would have thought they would be double, triple, quadruple careful about people, and I think the software is good enough that they should have always been able to recognize them.

I guess we'll see in the after-action analysis.
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Old 19th March 2018, 06:30 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
An eight-lane road???
Third world roads near you?

There are 22 lanes on highway 5 where 805 merges. 8 lanes is just a country path.
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Old 19th March 2018, 06:48 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The victim was crossing an eight-lane road at night, outside of a crosswalk, for whatever that is worth...

Exactly! If it walks like a duck then it's gotta' be that ol' J-walking canard. Run him over, I say!
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Old 19th March 2018, 07:03 PM   #36
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http://www.businessinsider.com/tempe...r-crash-2018-3

Seems they have video that shows her dart into the road from a dark edge. Dash cam?

I was hoping she was riding. If it comes down to a bazillion people wanting self driving cars vs bikes on the road, bjkes will be banished.
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Old 19th March 2018, 07:16 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
An eight-lane road???
I live very close to an eight lane surface road. (Woodward avenue) People jaywalk across it all the time. I have come close to hitting people several times. The usual scenario is that someone gets off a bus, and jaywalks to the opposite side, or is rushing to catch the bus on the opposite side, so doesn't travel to the crosswalks with stoplights.

There are a few other eight lane surface streets in metro Detroit. Lake Shore Drive in Chicago is eight lanes. That's a big road, but not bizarrely so.

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Old 19th March 2018, 07:41 PM   #38
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
http://www.businessinsider.com/tempe...r-crash-2018-3

Seems they have video that shows her dart into the road from a dark edge. Dash cam?
Not ordinary dash cam. Self driving cars are equipped with cameras. That's what allows them to be self driving. They also use lidar. We won't know until the investigation is complete, and we might never see the video, but the car should at least have been aware of the presence of the pedestrian, unless she was stepping out from behind cover. (A mailbox or something that blocked both the view and the reflection of the lidar.)

Last edited by Meadmaker; 19th March 2018 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 19th March 2018, 07:56 PM   #39
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
http://www.businessinsider.com/tempe...r-crash-2018-3

Seems they have video that shows her dart into the road from a dark edge. Dash cam?

I was hoping she was riding. If it comes down to a bazillion people wanting self driving cars vs bikes on the road, bjkes will be banished.
Nah, we'll be blowing through intersections, middle finger extended, just like we do now. Only now the self driving cars will be programmed to hit the brakes ...hard. Look! There goes Joey Magee's morning apertivo!


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Old 20th March 2018, 03:13 AM   #40
LTC8K6
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Not ordinary dash cam. Self driving cars are equipped with cameras. That's what allows them to be self driving. They also use lidar. We won't know until the investigation is complete, and we might never see the video, but the car should at least have been aware of the presence of the pedestrian, unless she was stepping out from behind cover. (A mailbox or something that blocked both the view and the reflection of the lidar.)
Sounds like it wouldn't be much better than a human at reacting to a sudden situation, such as a child darting out from between parked cars.
A human might see children playing in a yard, and anticipate the child darting after the ball?
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

Last edited by LTC8K6; 20th March 2018 at 03:14 AM.
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