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Old 4th April 2018, 03:35 AM   #201
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The rest of the world is free to produce and consume its own culture.
The rest of the world does indeed produce and consume its own culture, in varying amounts. American culture is cheaper, more easily available, and in fact better because of American investment in the music, film and television industries and the exportation of such overseas. As I have pointed out before, Australia (just as one example) actually passed laws in the 1980s to force broadcasters to show a certain amount of Australian content on television, because there was so much American content on Australian television.

American pop culture is ubiquitous in the English-speaking world, and in much of the non-English speaking world as well. You can claim all you like that we are able to produce and consume our own culture, but it is a fact that it is being overwhelmed by that produced in America.

I just signed in to Netflix Australia with a guest account so that my list of recommendations wouldn't be influenced by my history, and counted the number of Australian shows and movies on the list. On the "Trending Now" list, can you guess how many Australian shows there are? I'll let you guess. The answer is between zero and... zero. The answer is zero. There was one British show, and the other 39 TV shows and movies were American. And this is, I repeat, on the Australian branch of Netflix.

There are Australian shows and movies on Australian Netflix, but I have to go looking at them. American pop culture is available, easy and ubiquitous. The best shows on television, the best movies in the cinema, the best music, the best Internet content, are all American. Do you have even the remotest clue what that feels like? An American with no experience of Australian culture has no basis to claim that America doesn't influence the culture of other English-speaking countries.

And before theprestige accuses me - again - of America-bashing, let me just say that I am in no way arguing that this is a bad thing. I've seen Australian movies and TV shows, and with some exceptions they're largely crappy. What I am trying to argue is that this is the way it is, not whether it should or should not be that way.

If more Americans understood how influential they were overseas, I think they would be a bit more concerned about what their pop culture represents.
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Old 4th April 2018, 03:45 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I long ago gave up the fantasy that Australia's notion of the US is anything as charitable as "best friend".
This is born of utter ignorance of the political situation in this country. When America says "jump", our conservative government doesn't stop to ask how high.

Australia is that weak kid who sucks up to the biggest bully in the playground because they know that they might not get beaten up. We are the Peter Pettigrew to America's James Potter and Britain's Sirius Black. I'm not sure who is Lupin in this metaphor. Regardless, the bully regards the weak kid with pity and contempt while the weak kid hero-worships the bully. That pretty much sums up the relationship between Australia and America. We are your best friend. Or at least we desperately want to be, whether you notice us or not.

And as for me personally, apart from your guns and your current temporary presidential anomaly I actually kind of like America, because you have movies and TV and music and root beer. I have more contempt for our own weak suck-up government.
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Old 4th April 2018, 12:15 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
This is contemptible. No, it's below contemptible.

"you have not acknowledged" does not, in any way, support your ridiculous accusation:



Righto. If you've an ounce of decency left in you, you'll either quote me "defending those who allowed a violent psychopath...to acquire...assault rifles and shoot up a school" (actual quote: my words quoted back at me), or you'll apologise. I know you can't do the former, and I don't believe you have it in you to do the latter. Surprise me.
Quote me defending a mass murderer. My words quoted back at me.
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Old 4th April 2018, 12:22 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This is born of utter ignorance of the political situation in this country. When America says "jump", our conservative government doesn't stop to ask how high.
That doesn't mean the two nations "best friends" in the sense you seem to mean.

Quote:
Australia is that weak kid who sucks up to the biggest bully in the playground because they know that they might not get beaten up. We are the Peter Pettigrew to America's James Potter and Britain's Sirius Black. I'm not sure who is Lupin in this metaphor. Regardless, the bully regards the weak kid with pity and contempt while the weak kid hero-worships the bully. That pretty much sums up the relationship between Australia and America. We are your best friend. Or at least we desperately want to be, whether you notice us or not.
That does not sound remotely like a "best friend" relationship. That sounds like someone who thinks the two nations aren't best friends at all. So no, I don't believe for a moment that your criticism of the US comes from a place of sincere concern about your "best friend".

Quote:
And as for me personally, apart from your guns and your current temporary presidential anomaly I actually kind of like America, because you have movies and TV and music and root beer.
Sounds more like an exploitative acquaintance than a best friend. I'm glad you like to consume some of the things America produces, but that doesn't quite make us friends. Especially when you call us a bully from one side of your mouth while you sip our root beer from the other side.
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Old 4th April 2018, 12:34 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sounds more like an exploitative acquaintance than a best friend. I'm glad you like to consume some of the things America produces, but that doesn't quite make us friends. Especially when you call us a bully from one side of your mouth while you sip our root beer from the other side.
What are you talking about? We're your BESTEST friend. You won't find a bester friend than us. Hey, is that a Russia investigation? Can we ignore that for you? Huh? Please?

ETA: Of course it's an exploitative relationship. And don't mistake my own personal perspective for the official position of our government.
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Old 4th April 2018, 12:44 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
What are you talking about? We're your BESTEST friend. You won't find a bester friend than us. Hey, is that a Russia investigation? Can we ignore that for you? Huh? Please?

ETA: Of course it's an exploitative relationship. And don't mistake my own personal perspective for the official position of our government.
Help me understand. When you agreed with

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
It's more than that, though, arthwollipot. It's like watching a best friend get into drugs, or become obese. You say something because they're your best friend.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, that's a very good point too.
You weren't actually saying that your criticism of the US is the criticism of one friend to another that they love dearly.

Rather, your criticism is more like lecturing at a bully.
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Old 4th April 2018, 12:45 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Quote me defending a mass murderer. My words quoted back at me.
You first.
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Old 4th April 2018, 12:49 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
No matter how often you question the purpose of this thread, it is still to discuss the practicalities of enforcing a ban.
Except you keep dismissing any discussion of those practicalities. You reached your conclusion in the OP, and you've been rejecting anything else ever since.

Last edited by theprestige; 4th April 2018 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 4th April 2018, 12:56 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Rather, your criticism is more like lecturing at a bully.
Now you're getting it. And it's likely to have about the same effect.

But we do it because we like America but we don't like your attitude towards guns. Laying aside all metaphor now, that's what we're saying. America can be better than this. America should be better than this.
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Old 4th April 2018, 01:24 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Except you keep dismissing any discussion of those practicalities. You reached your conclusion in the OP, and you've been rejecting anything else ever since.
What Nessie meant to say was that the purpose of this thread is to tell anyone who thinks there might be a way of reducing the availability of weapons in some circumstances to some people that they are wrong, and that Nessie knows best.
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Old 4th April 2018, 02:11 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
What Nessie meant to say was that the purpose of this thread is to tell anyone who thinks there might be a way of reducing the availability of weapons in some circumstances to some people that they are wrong, and that Nessie knows best.
I appreciate your insistence on this point. I think it's finally starting to sink in, for me.
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Old 4th April 2018, 03:34 PM   #212
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Australia, nation of sheep that demanded that the government take away their guns. Americans will never give up their guns.
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Old 4th April 2018, 05:51 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Americans will never give up their guns.
The percentage in favor of more restriction & regulation has been climbing, and recently reached 93. It's not a question of whether the American people want it or not. It's just a question of whether or not we'll ever again have a government that listens to us.
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Old 4th April 2018, 11:41 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You first.
No.
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Old 4th April 2018, 11:41 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Australia, nation of sheep that demanded that the government take away their guns. Americans will never give up their guns.
Trolling alert.

Britain also "gave up our guns". You'll note that there are millions of gun owners in both Australia and Britain. You'll also note that Briton's and Australians are content to live in an environment in which they have a virtually-nil chance of coming into contact with someone carrying a gun, or being attacked by anyone with a gun. We'd rather be safe than smugly defending a stupid "right".

The thing is, we're right in this matter, and you guys are wrong. Your homicide rate proves that. Our mass shooting figures prove that. Our school shooting figures prove that. The fact that you're so frightened of that reality is what drives people to troll on the internet at the very same time as American families bury more of their dead from the gun carnage. I say this again, very clearly for the hard of thinking...........we're right on this matter, and America has it wrong.
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Old 4th April 2018, 11:43 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
No.
Surprise, surprise. You lie about me, slur me, accuse me of saying something I didn't say, and when asked for a quote to back up your nonsense, you turn it around and demand I produce something from you. I'm not playing your game.
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Old 5th April 2018, 12:36 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Now you're getting it. And it's likely to have about the same effect.

But we do it because we like America but we don't like your attitude towards guns. Laying aside all metaphor now, that's what we're saying. America can be better than this. America should be better than this.
But why? Why do you like America? Our country is destroying yours with the homogenizing influence of our mass media. You should dislike us for that reason. But why does our attitude toward guns bother you? You don't share our gun fetish. The vast number of weapons in the United States doesn't create more crime or more violence in Australia. The number of guns in the US isn't going to have any effect on the number of guns in Australia. Was Australia ever as violent as the United States? If there were as many guns per capita in Australia as there are in the United States, would there be as many gun deaths or as many school shootings?

You should hate us because our mass media is pushing a multicultural/diversity is our strength agenda that will eventually destroy your country. But our guns? Why worry?
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Old 5th April 2018, 12:44 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Surprise, surprise. You lie about me, slur me, accuse me of saying something I didn't say, and when asked for a quote to back up your nonsense, you turn it around and demand I produce something from you. I'm not playing your game. You are a liar.
No, you lied about me first. You slur me first. You accuse me of defending a murderer first. I know what I said that triggered you to make those accusations. I want you to quote me so everybody can see what I said and know that you are lying.
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Old 5th April 2018, 12:49 AM   #219
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Thanks for confirming that you lied. Have a nice day, CaptainHowdy.
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Old 5th April 2018, 12:59 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Except you keep dismissing any discussion of those practicalities. You reached your conclusion in the OP, and you've been rejecting anything else ever since.
I am indeed certain, based on the evidence presented, that even if there was a ban on a type of weapon, it would not be possible to remove that weapon from circulation. Just as attempts to remove cannabis from circulation have failed and the same when that was tried with alcohol back in Prohibition.

Nothing presented so far has made me think I should change that conclusion.

The USA gave up with Prohibition (even amending its constitution) and various states have now given up trying to ban cannabis and allow it to be grown and sold. That is why I started another thread where I seriously suggest that the USA should just develop coping strategies to deal with the volume of gun deaths and massacres.

If the UK had 88.8 guns per 100 people, all UK gangs had large arsenals of guns and easy access to them, we had a tradition where there was generally easy access to guns and a tradition of personal freedom over the benefit of the community, I do not think we could solve a gun problem either.
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Old 5th April 2018, 01:01 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
What Nessie meant to say was that the purpose of this thread is to tell anyone who thinks there might be a way of reducing the availability of weapons in some circumstances to some people that they are wrong, and that Nessie knows best.
Now who is lying?

The purpose is to ask how would the guns be removed from circulation? Yes, I do not think it could be done, but contrary to what you think, I am open to evidence it can be. Have you got any?
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Old 5th April 2018, 02:33 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
But why? Why do you like America? Our country is destroying yours with the homogenizing influence of our mass media. You should dislike us for that reason. But why does our attitude toward guns bother you? You don't share our gun fetish. The vast number of weapons in the United States doesn't create more crime or more violence in Australia. The number of guns in the US isn't going to have any effect on the number of guns in Australia. Was Australia ever as violent as the United States? If there were as many guns per capita in Australia as there are in the United States, would there be as many gun deaths or as many school shootings?

You should hate us because our mass media is pushing a multicultural/diversity is our strength agenda that will eventually destroy your country. But our guns? Why worry?
I don't understand. Are you trying to claim that it is my belief that American culture will destroy Australian culture after I explicitly said that it wasn't? There's a word for that.
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Old 5th April 2018, 03:52 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Thanks for confirming that you lied. Have a nice day, CaptainHowdy.
And there you go again, lying about me confirming I lied about you. Why don't you expose me as a liar by quoting my lies about you? Is it because I have never lied about you and you don't want to look like a silly man?
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Old 5th April 2018, 04:01 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I don't understand. Are you trying to claim that it is my belief that American culture will destroy Australian culture after I explicitly said that it wasn't? There's a word for that.
No, I didn't mean to suggest that your belief is that American culture is destroying Australian culture. That is what I believe. Sorry if I didn't say that clearly enough.

I actually believe that American culture is destroying my country, your country, and Western civilization in general. I would love to see the world resist American cultural domination.
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Old 7th April 2018, 12:54 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
And there you go again, lying about me confirming I lied about you. Why don't you expose me as a liar by quoting my lies about you? Is it because I have never lied about you and you don't want to look like a silly man?
Still waiting for you to quote MikeG and back this claim up; "So says the man who defends the people who allowed a violent psychopath who drew swastikas on things to acquire dangerous assault rifles and shoot up a school."
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Old 8th April 2018, 11:18 AM   #226
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I'm watching an Australian show on Netflix right now. It's called Offspring. It's sort of like a less-funny Mindy Project with lots of references I don't get. But I like it.

Does Australia display its own shows on American Netflix but not Australian Netflix? That's weird, but I guess I've heard weirder.

Glitch is also an Australian show I've watched on Netflix, and so is The Strange Calls. At least, their entire casts are Australian and they take place in Australia. Are they somehow American-made anyway? They're listed as Netflix "originals," so maybe. Offspring isn't labeled as such, though.

Sorry to drift a bit off-topic. I was just surprised to hear about the Netflix thing, and then I realized I don't really know how any of it actually works. But I just checked my Netflix, and all of those shows I mentioned are still available.

My parents gave me their ACORN password to share - I typically use that for a nice fix of non-American media.
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Old 9th April 2018, 11:04 AM   #227
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Well if you're in London you start by restricting knives and then restrict other knives and then maybe even all knives
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:35 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I am indeed certain, based on the evidence presented, that even if there was a ban on a type of weapon, it would not be possible to remove that weapon from circulation. Just as attempts to remove cannabis from circulation have failed and the same when that was tried with alcohol back in Prohibition.

Nothing presented so far has made me think I should change that conclusion.
Why? It worked for Australia. It worked for the UK. It worked in the US for machine guns and hand grenades.
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Old 9th April 2018, 03:13 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Well if you're in London you start by restricting knives and then restrict other knives and then maybe even all knives
Why Are So Many American Conservatives Worked Up About London’s Knife Murders?

Quote:
This week’s announcement from the city, then, only deals with enforcement of the strict regulations already in place. According to the statement, the city will, among other measures, start directing more funding toward youth programs to reach those considering or already in gangs or those at risk of knife violence, as well as to its law enforcement, which will now have a new task force and patrols with extra stop-and-search privileges.

It’s unclear if the conservatives reacting to Khan’s tweet were aware that Britain’s knife laws are not new, or that they’re not a major political battleground, but they responded with alarm and an I-told-you-so satisfaction.
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Old 9th April 2018, 03:41 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I've added the highlighted to fix your post for you.
So does my requirement for the seizure of my property without due process a different 4th amendment than your understanding?
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Old 9th April 2018, 03:44 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
The thread is about public policy regarding gun confiscation. When you make everything to be about me, me, me, you aren't making a useful argument.
Public Policy is eventually enforced against the citizenry. How is the impact of a propose Public Policy against me not a useful argument? How it impacts citizens is the only useful argument one can make for Public Policy.
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Old 9th April 2018, 03:51 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
This is paranoid crap. There is no proposal to kill you for your weapon. You want there to be, so that you can justify this sort of emotional rant, but there isn't.
Yeah, you are right. The police never shoot unarmed people. We should all be fine when they raid your home because someone saw a weapon. Or when you said "We're taking your AR 15 off you" you weren't talking about, well, coming in and taking it directly from my possession?

Having police officers come in and physically try to take something will get people shot and killed. They are already on high alert, knowing that there are weapons in that household. It's really not a question of if, but of how many people you are willing to kill to enforce your gun grab?
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Old 9th April 2018, 04:24 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Again I ask - and if you don't want to answer, that's perfectly fine - what kind of situation might that be?
I really don't know. I didn't know I was going to live through two mad bombers (UniBomber and the Austin bomber), Someone crashing a plane into a building I work with (Andrew Stack), or any other number of crazy incidents. Yes, an AR15 wouldn't have helped against any of those threats. But I'm not willing to be put in a situation where it would have been helpful and not have that option that just accept that I can't protect myself. When the Supreme Court has already stated that the cops do not have a duty to protect, they did leave it up to me.

I would rather have one and never need it rather than need it and never be allowed to have it.

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Because your second amendment "right" is not a right, it's a capability built in to your constitution 200 years ago with questionable validity now. Your American Bill of Rights is a massive con in the way it tries to paint its arbitrary decisions as somehow "inherent" to human nature. You do not have an inherent right to bear arms, you only have those "rights" that some people 200 years ago decided they wanted to let you have.
Self defense is not only a right, it is inherent to human nature. Not only human, but every sentient being. The fact that I would chose to use a weapon that I'm comfortable and skilled in is the best choice.

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Because killing you would necessitate only one death. You, defending yourself, would likely try to kill many soldiers who came to enforce the law. After all, America has decided already that it's okay to kill people who break the law. Many states have the death penalty, and in many more states, police can kill armed offenders without legal repercussions.
Soldiers don't enforce the law. Cops, and the local sherries do. Police kill unarmed offenders without legal repercussions too. I'm just curious why you are trying to increase dead people. If you don't like it when people who "break the law" get killed, perhaps a question should be if that law was necessary and if that person was left to their own devices, are they a threat to society? Someone with an AR15 in his gun safe is a threat to nobody.

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Because as I never tire of telling people it's not about you. It's about the effect that widespread gun ownership has on society as a whole. For a start, it engenders attitudes like yours, where people claim that they will kill in order to keep their guns.
Hell, I might kill if someone tried to take my dog or my car.

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Your lack of insight into the varied nature of harm is stunning.
Your lack of explanatory power in how a gun that never leaves a gun safe beyond trips to the range is equally stunning.

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How many well-conducted scientific studies will it take for people to realise that the only variable that explains the massively inflated gun injury and death rate in America compared to other countries is widespread gun ownership?
Perhaps when a firearm commits the act without a person? From that article "This suggests that the guns themselves cause the violence." And they are wrong. Guns are inanimate objects. They can't cause anything.

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You mean why do we keep giving back the guns that we do have?

You're really asking why, if we hate our guns so much, we keep giving them up? Isn't the answer to that question really obvious?
If you hate them so much, and have given them all back, how do you keep having more to give up? Clearly some people like them enough to keep them. Otherwise it would be a one and done affair.
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:05 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
........Your lack of explanatory power in how a gun that never leaves a gun safe beyond trips to the range is equally stunning.......
So not having a gun safe and not having guns stored at home, but instead having access to guns at a range, would satisfy your desire to loudly put holes in pieces of paper, and satisfy your neighbours desire to live life not surrounded by people with guns. Do you see this as one possible part of a solution to the gun problem in the USA?
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Old 10th April 2018, 12:27 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
So not having a gun safe and not having guns stored at home, but instead having access to guns at a range, would satisfy your desire to loudly put holes in pieces of paper, and satisfy your neighbours desire to live life not surrounded by people with guns. Do you see this as one possible part of a solution to the gun problem in the USA?
I don't. It does not work for those folks who do not have access to a public shooting range.
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Old 10th April 2018, 01:41 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why? It worked for Australia. It worked for the UK. It worked in the US for machine guns and hand grenades.
It worked because in those countries and with those types of weapons, there was always a good degree of control. So, when it can to a ban, there were not tons of guns washing about the system, particularly in the hands of criminals, gangs, militias and others unknown who are not going to cooperate.
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Old 10th April 2018, 01:54 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It worked because in those countries and with those types of weapons, there was always a good degree of control. So, when it can to a ban, there were not tons of guns washing about the system, particularly in the hands of criminals, gangs, militias and others unknown who are not going to cooperate.
So? That's a solvable problem. The ban itself is the difficult part, but for this discussion we're assuming we've already got the ban. After that, cleanup is just a matter of time and effort.

I'm completely in agreement with you that such a cleanup, in the US, even with the massive public support that would be necessary to get the ban in the first place, would take more time and effort than it might in other countries that have similar bans. But so what? Life isn't easy. I don't understand why you get this far and then completely shut down and can't even keep thinking about the problem. How would you solve it?
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Old 10th April 2018, 05:30 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How would you solve it?
The point appears to be to come up with excuses not to.
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Old 10th April 2018, 05:56 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
The point appears to be to come up with excuses not to.
I imagine that Nessie has a point clearly in mind, but can't figure it to express it coherently.
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Old 10th April 2018, 11:10 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
.......... I don't understand why you get this far and then completely shut down and can't even keep thinking about the problem. How would you solve it?
Nessie doesn't want to solve it. That's the whole point. More than that, Nessie wants it to be insoluble........is invested in it being an insoluble issue. Nessie wants people to post (like one or two have) about cold dead hands and so on, because s/he enjoys saying that this task is impossible. It's a creed.
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