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Old 4th April 2018, 07:51 AM   #1
Giz
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Pensioner arrested after killing armed burglar during violent tus

This seems kind of strange, I would have thought that (even in the UK) violent force would have been justified in this case?

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"A pensioner has been arrested after a suspected burglar was killed during a violent tussle at his home.

Police said the struggle broke out after the pensioner had found two men inside his home in South Park, Hither Green, south London shortly after midnight.

One suspect, armed with a screwdriver, forced the*home-owner into his kitchen when he discovered them, while his accomplice went upstairs.

Detectives believe a struggle ensued between "one of the males and the home-owner" and the 38-year-old intruder was stabbed in the upper body. "

Police arrested him on suspicion of grievous bodily harm before then arresting him on suspicion of murder.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-pensioner-78/

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Old 4th April 2018, 07:56 AM   #2
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Often it's easier to arrest the victim than the perpetrator, especially if the latter is dead, and it's still +1 on the Monthly Targets spreadsheet. In the UK, if you kill a burglar in your house the best thing is to chop him up in the bath and dispose of him in a ditch somewhere. Asking for help from the police will result in, well, this.
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Old 4th April 2018, 07:59 AM   #3
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SOP

Someone died, the police have to charge.

The CPS will decide whether or not to take the charge to court.
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Old 4th April 2018, 07:59 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Often it's easier to arrest the victim than the perpetrator, especially if the latter is dead, and it's still +1 on the Monthly Targets spreadsheet. In the UK, if you kill a burglar in your house the best thing is to chop him up in the bath and dispose of him in a ditch somewhere. Asking for help from the police will result in, well, this.
Nonsense. They have to arrest him to question him under caution, if it was self defense, (and it sounds like it), he won't be charged with anything.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:03 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Nonsense. They have to arrest him to question him under caution
Balls. No such mandate exists, and even if interview under caution is required there is nothing to stop it being voluntary.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:07 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Balls. No such mandate exists, and even if interview under caution is required there is nothing to stop it being voluntary.
They found a dead body in the street, the police weren't there when it happened, so they can't just file it under self defense with no investigation and no questions asked. Questioning the suspect under caution is a normal part of the process, so you can stop getting your knickers in a twist.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:09 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
They found a dead body in the street, the police weren't there when it happened, so they can't just file it under self defense with no investigation and no questions asked. Questioning the suspect under caution is a normal part of the process, so you can stop getting your knickers in a twist.
Stop changing the goalposts. You stated they had to arrest him, not question him under caution. Are you still maintaining that they were forced to arrest him?
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:11 AM   #8
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It was self-defence. It's the idiot police.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:12 AM   #9
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What does "question him under caution" mean?
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:13 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Stop changing the goalposts. You stated they had to arrest him, not question him under caution. Are you still maintaining that they were forced to arrest him?
Yes, they had to arrest him, and if I was in his shoes I would rather be arrested anyway, at least until they catch the dead guy's mate.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:14 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What does "question him under caution" mean?
It basically just means whatever the person says can be used as evidence in court, if it comes to that.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:15 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
It was self-defence. It's the idiot police.
Well done. Because you were there?

The police don't decide that, the CPS do, based on evidence collected by the police.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:17 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Yes, they had to arrest him, and if I was in his shoes I would rather be arrested anyway, at least until they catch the dead guy's mate.
No, they did not have to arrest him. Why do you keep saying that?

The second part of your sentence is similarly bizarre. Even if he needed protection, which I highly doubt, do you think the best response to a 78 year old man who has just fought for his life with two armed intruders in his own home is to arrest him for murder and add the possibility of a lifetime in jail to his already significant trauma?
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:18 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Well done. Because you were there?

The police don't decide that, the CPS do, based on evidence collected by the police.
No they don't. The CPS decide whether to charge. The police decide whether to arrest.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:19 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What does "question him under caution" mean?
The UK equivalent of Miranda i suppose.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:19 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
No, they did not have to arrest him. Why do you keep saying that?
Cause it's true. They have to determine whether it was self-defense first.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:21 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
No they don't. The CPS decide whether to charge. The police decide whether to arrest.
That's what i said in that post - the CPS decide whether a crime has been committed. My earlier post was actually the wrong one.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:21 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Cause it's true. They have to determine whether it was self-defense first.
At the risk of repeating myself, what's to stop them doing a voluntary interview under caution?
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:22 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
No, they did not have to arrest him. Why do you keep saying that?

The second part of your sentence is similarly bizarre. Even if he needed protection, which I highly doubt, do you think the best response to a 78 year old man who has just fought for his life with two armed intruders in his own home is to arrest him for murder and add the possibility of a lifetime in jail to his already significant trauma?
You're talking nonsense. Of course they had to arrest him, they find a dead guy in the street and a nearby householder saying he stabbed him, what did you expect them to do?

And he's better off being arrested anyway, that's both the best way to ensure his rights as a suspect fully kick in and it means he can be kept safely in custody till the other burglar is caught.

He hasn't been charged, and if his story is true he won't be because its not illegal in the UK to defend yourself against a burglar.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:22 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
At the risk of repeating myself, what's to stop them doing a voluntary interview under caution?
This isn't shoplifting.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:24 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
At the risk of repeating myself, what's to stop them doing a voluntary interview under caution?
Maybe because he had the good sense not to volunteer and instead make them arrest him. Its what anyone who understood the law would do.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:25 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
That's what i said in that post - the CPS decide whether a crime has been committed. My earlier post was actually the wrong one.
Strictly speaking then it's the jury that would decide that. The CPS will not yet have been involved, and it sounds like they should never be. If they are involve all they'll do is ascertain if there's enough evidence to make a prosecution likely, and that prosecution is in the public interest. My point is that based on the media reports, I cannot see why the police would want to arrest the homeowner at this stage.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:27 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
This isn't shoplifting.
Legally it makes no difference, both sets of evidence hold equal weight.

Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Maybe because he had the good sense not to volunteer and instead make them arrest him. Its what anyone who understood the law would do.
That may be so but we've not been told this is the case.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:29 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What does "question him under caution" mean?
Originally Posted by fagin View Post
The UK equivalent of Miranda i suppose.
Essentially.

The Police and Criminal Evidence Act of 1984 lays out how police can in England/Wales can perform investigations, conduct interviews, question suspects, and one section of it is very similar to the US Miranda Law.

In England/Wales under the PCEA 1984 suspects are informed:

"You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence."

In the United States under the precedent set by the Supreme Court in Miranda v. Arizona it's usually something akin to:

"You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to have an attorney. If you cannot afford one, one will be appointed to you by the court. With these rights in mind, are you still willing to talk with me about the charges against you?""

Although the exact verbiage is not legally mandated. And total matter of opinion but the "Can and will" part of the American version always struck me as odd.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:29 AM   #25
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Maybe he's the local don, and it was a failed drug deal.

At this point, who knows?
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:31 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Legally it makes no difference, both sets of evidence hold equal weight.



That may be so but we've not been told this is the case.
You expect the Telegraph to explain to their readers that there are good reasons to arrest someone in that situation? That's a bit unreasonable of you, how are their readers supposed to froth at the mouth about political correctness gorn mad if the newspaper tells them the truth.

And no, the evidence isn't the same in a case like this as in a shoplifting case. For one thing, they wouldn't need to carry out a Section 32 search of his house if he'd been caught down his local Aldi nicking tins of beans, whereas they do if he's stabbed an alleged burglar in his house. And you can't carry out a Section 32 search without an arrest.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:34 AM   #27
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He's still being described as a 'suspected' burglar in the news reports. As Strawberry has already said, if the homeowner is telling the truth, there will be no charges, but the police have to investigate.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:56 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
He's still being described as a 'suspected' burglar in the news reports. As Strawberry has already said, if the homeowner is telling the truth, there will be no charges, but the police have to investigate.
That is wrong, they should just take him at his word and end it.
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Old 4th April 2018, 08:59 AM   #29
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Does the law protect burglary victims who fight back?
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Old 4th April 2018, 09:00 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Legally it makes no difference
Theoretically, perhaps. In real life, it does.

In any case, a possible crime has been committed so they've got to take him in.

Quote:
Strictly speaking then it's the jury that would decide that.
This won't get to court.
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Old 4th April 2018, 09:08 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
This seems kind of strange, I would have thought that (even in the UK) violent force would have been justified in this case?
Yes, but it is for the CPS and - if necessary - a jury to decide that it is. Deadly force absolutely is permissible if it is reasonable and proportionate under the circumstances, but it is beholden to the police to arrest first, and then work down from that as the full situation becomes clear. A claim of self defence is never taken at face value.

That said, I would be very surprised if this even gets to court. The homeowner encountered two burglars, one of whom - armed with a screwdriver - bundled him into the kitchen. Apparently the burglar suffered a single stab wound - not clear yet whether it was the screwdriver or a kitchen knife - and collapsed in the street.

By the by, this happened about 10 minutes walk from where I live (same side of the railway tracks, but the other side of the North Circular), and presumably explains why a news helicopter was hovering over the area this morning.
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Old 4th April 2018, 09:09 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What does "question him under caution" mean?
Under our equivalent of Miranda.
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Old 4th April 2018, 09:24 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
It was self-defence. It's the idiot police.
So, you're quite happy to take the one person's word for that, without checking. You know for certain there was a break-in, that the guy was armed, and indeed, had actually broken into the house. And you know all this to a level of certainty that would satisfy a judge. You really should consider entering the Million Dollar Challenge with those mind-reading skills of yours.

How about letting the police question him, decide whether there is anything suspicious, and if not, let the poor old chap get back to his life. I'm much more concerned with what the press will do to wreck his life now than what the police or CPS will do.
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Old 4th April 2018, 09:30 AM   #34
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There was a similar sort of case a few years ago in which a farmer in somewhere like Norfolk shot dead one of a group of gypsies who had been continually been burgling his property for years. He was sent to prison. The Daily Mail newspaper then launched a campaign to get him released, which I think happened in the end.

I think the law in America may be different. I remember a case being reported in America in which a Scottish man had been knocking on the door of somebody's house in the night for some reason, and then he was shot dead by the home owner. The home owner was cleared of anything.
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Old 4th April 2018, 09:30 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
So, you're quite happy to take the one person's word for that, without checking. You know for certain there was a break-in, that the guy was armed, and indeed, had actually broken into the house. And you know all this to a level of certainty that would satisfy a judge.

I think, in some US states, this is exactly what happens.
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Old 4th April 2018, 09:32 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There was a similar sort of case a few years ago in which a farmer in somewhere like Norfolk shot dead one of a group of gypsies who had been continually been burgling his property for years. He was sent to prison. The Daily Mail newspaper then launched a campaign to get him released, which I think happened in the end.
Are you talking of the farmer who shot a fleeing suspect in the back? That one?
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Old 4th April 2018, 09:35 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There was a similar sort of case a few years ago in which a farmer in somewhere like Norfolk shot dead one of a group of gypsies who had been continually been burgling his property for years. He was sent to prison. The Daily Mail newspaper then launched a campaign to get him released, which I think happened in the end.

I think the law in America may be different. I remember a case being reported in America in which a Scottish man had been knocking on the door of somebody's house in the night for some reason, and then he was shot dead by the home owner. The home owner was cleared of anything.
You're talking about the Tony Martin case. He was convicted of murder by a jury after the prosecution showed evidence that he shot the 16 year old burglar in the spine, paralysing him, and then walked up to him and shot him in the head. You and the Daily Mail might think that's acceptable, but no normal person does, especially as the burglars in question thought they'd broken into a derelict house and ran straight away when they saw Martin. He had no need to shoot them at all.

His conviction was reduced to manslaughter on appeal due to diminished responsibility which is why he was released early.
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Old 4th April 2018, 09:36 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
You expect the Telegraph to explain to their readers that there are good reasons to arrest someone in that situation? That's a bit unreasonable of you, how are their readers supposed to froth at the mouth about political correctness gorn mad if the newspaper tells them the truth.
There are other sources of news aside from the Telegraph. None have provided any evidence of what you claim. It is the norm for someone being arrested to not be given the choice between arrest and voluntary questioning.

Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
And no, the evidence isn't the same in a case like this as in a shoplifting case. For one thing, they wouldn't need to carry out a Section 32 search of his house if he'd been caught down his local Aldi nicking tins of beans, whereas they do if he's stabbed an alleged burglar in his house. And you can't carry out a Section 32 search without an arrest.
Why on earth would they want to perform a Section 32 search on a 78-year old burglary victim?
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Old 4th April 2018, 09:38 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
There are other sources of news aside from the Telegraph. None have provided any evidence of what you claim. It is the norm for someone being arrested to not be given the choice between arrest and voluntary questioning.



Why on earth would they want to perform a Section 32 search on a 78-year old burglary victim?
To establish whether or not he is a burglary victim by searching his premises.
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Old 4th April 2018, 09:42 AM   #40
MikeG
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There was a similar sort of case a few years ago in which a farmer in somewhere like Norfolk shot dead one of a group of gypsies who had been continually been burgling his property for years................
Tony Martin. Lay in wait with an illegally held shotgun*, booby trapped his stairs, and shot the burglars in the back as they were outside running away.

Yeah, very similar.

* His shotgun license had been revoked when he shot up someone's vehicle. He was a supporter of the BNP (a far-right racist group).
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