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Old 8th April 2018, 12:46 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by MinimumWageShill View Post
I've read the thread thanks. For some reason you don't think anyone that claims they were burgled should ever be arrested, or maybe it's because they are Irish travellers or Oh god no gypsies.

That is a complete distortion of what he has said.

He's made it clear that he thinks travellers are much worse than gypsies.
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Old 8th April 2018, 01:09 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There is still the factor of the missing second man (perhaps even more...?).

If this had happened in the USA this second person would be charged with felony murder, where a person dies as a result of the felony.

<snip>
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Are you sure? Even when the person killed is one of the gang, not a victim of the gang?
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
As I understand it, anyone in commission of a felony, any felony at all, during which someone, be it perpetrator or victim or innocent bystander, dies, is subject to a murder charge.

Someone may be along in a minute to correct me.
Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Yes. GangmemberA and GangmemberB went into pensioners house with the intention to burgle. Had GangmemberA and GangmemberB not done that no one would have died so whomever is left standing (let's say GangmemberB) he will be charged with murder.

Like anything involving the laws in the U.S. Nothing is simple.

The answer is ... it depends.

First off, of course, it depends on what state has jurisdiction over the crime.

There are two theories of responsibility which may be employed in a felony murder statute. Wiki provides a fairly simple basic explanation;
Quote:
There are two schools of thought concerning whose actions can cause the defendant to be guilty of felony murder. Jurisdictions that hold to the agency theory admit only deaths caused by the agents of the crime. Jurisdictions that use the proximate cause theory include any death, even if caused by a bystander or the police, provided that it meets one of several proximate cause tests to determine if the chain of events between the offence and the death was short enough to have legally caused the death.[3]
Nearly all the states in the U.S. have some form of a felony murder statute. Most tend to be largely of the "agency" approach. Some are more toward the "proximate cause" theory. With varying levels of commitment to the idea.

Arizona is perhaps the most clear-cut in its adoption of proximate cause. Their statute is quite explicit.
Quote:
The statute102 provides, in relevant part, that a person commits first degree murder if:

A. 2 Acting either alone or with one or more other persons the person commits or attempts to commit [enumerated felonies]103 and in the course of and in furtherance or immediate flight from the offense, the person or another person causes the death of any person.
Under this jurisdiction the burglar who fled would most definitely be guilty of felony murder.

In most states, maybe not so much.

Here is a good discussion in depth on the subject.

From it you will see that, as tends to be true of many legal issues, there is nothing simple or straightforward about the application or interpretation of these laws in many states. And certainly nothing consistent across the various states.
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Old 8th April 2018, 01:57 AM   #363
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A thread on this forum last year: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=318146
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Old 8th April 2018, 03:17 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I think it is not a bad law, because it takes away the onus of having to prove which one of the gang of criminals was responsible for the death, bearing in mind most crimes do not have eyewitnesses and the victim is dead.
No offence, but that just sounds like cost cutting and laziness beating hard work finding the right bad dude
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Old 8th April 2018, 03:52 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I think it is not a bad law, because it takes away the onus of having to prove which one of the gang of criminals was responsible for the death, bearing in mind most crimes do not have eyewitnesses and the victim is dead.
In fact, to me, it almost goes against the onus on the prosecution to prove guilt, which I thought was law
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Old 8th April 2018, 06:55 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
In fact, to me, it almost goes against the onus on the prosecution to prove guilt, which I thought was law
I tend to agree with you, but what it seems to do is remove the chance of nobody being found guilty of the actual murder simply because the precise culprit within the group can't be clearly identified.
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Old 8th April 2018, 07:04 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I tend to agree with you, but what it seems to do is remove the chance of nobody being found guilty of the actual murder simply because the precise culprit within the group can't be clearly identified.
Which is all very well when "the gang" has done the killing. If a gang member is killed in self-defence it seems less reasonable.
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Old 8th April 2018, 07:28 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
A thread on this forum last year: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=318146
In that case, three teenagers aged 15,18 and 19, Cook, Redfearn and Woodruff were shot dead by another young fellow when he came across them intruding in his home for the purpose of burglary. The driver of the getaway car - who sped off and left her dead pals behind (rather like in this case) and apparent ringleader was someone called Elizabeth Rodriguez.

Quote:
Wagoner County Assistant District Attorney Jack Thorpe said a few days after the shooting that Rodriguez would be charged with three counts of first-degree murder and two counts of burglary for her part in the crime.

The district attorney’s office deemed the shooting justifiable. Thorpe said Zach Peters was acting in self-defense when he pulled the trigger, killing the three intruders.
It doesn't look like the trial has finished yet...(adjourned?)

It's a good parallel to this crime in the UK. It'd be a shame if the burglar who sped off in the van just gets charged with burglary and is out in four years.

Rodriguez will likely get life without parole.
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Old 8th April 2018, 07:46 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Which is all very well when "the gang" has done the killing. If a gang member is killed in self-defence it seems less reasonable.
Yes; the gang being individually liable for an act committed by any of them is understandable to some extent. In English law, this is known as "joint enterprise' or 'common purpose'. I don't think it ever extends to the degree that some US states allow for for felony murder (thanks to quadraginta for the background on that), and there have been some notable cases where it was used (the Derek Bentley case probably being the best-known).
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Old 8th April 2018, 08:24 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I think it is not a bad law, because it takes away the onus of having to prove which one of the gang of criminals was responsible for the death, bearing in mind most crimes do not have eyewitnesses and the victim is dead.
It certainly used to be the case in England & Wales that if one member of a gang killed anyone other than another gang member, all the gang members would be charged with murder under the concept of "common purpose" or "joint enterprise." It was never automatic, though, and all might not be charged if the killer used a weapon the others could reasonably claim they were unaware of.

ETA: As Zooterkin notes, one of the most infamous prosecutions under this concept was the now-pardoned Derek Bentley. There have certainly been more recent examples, but in 2016 the Supreme Court said the law had been misinterpreted for 30 years, resulting in perhaps "hundreds" of unsafe convictions.

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Old 8th April 2018, 08:31 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It certainly used to be the case in England & Wales that if one member of a gang killed anyone other than another gang member, all the gang members would be charged with murder under the concept of "common purpose." It was never automatic, though, and all might not be charged if the killer used a weapons the others could reasonably claim they were unaware of.
Which would seem appropriate. I cod see that if gang members pressured someone into, say an armed robbery and they were killed by the victim in self defence, then I could see the US approach might make sense - it still seems a bit of a stretch to murder as opposed to manslaughter, though.
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Old 8th April 2018, 08:45 AM   #372
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There’s was a case about the interpretation of joint enterprise in the UK Supreme Court a couple of years ago (more links in the story): Joint enterprise law wrongly interpreted for 30 years, Supreme Court rules

See also: Judges reject challenge to 'joint enterprise' convictions

ETA: I see I was ninjaed by Information Analyst while I was walking back from the bus stop and looking up the links.
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Old 8th April 2018, 10:18 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Like anything involving the laws in the U.S. Nothing is simple.

The answer is ... it depends.

First off, of course, it depends on what state has jurisdiction over the crime.

There are two theories of responsibility which may be employed in a felony murder statute. Wiki provides a fairly simple basic explanation;
Nearly all the states in the U.S. have some form of a felony murder statute. Most tend to be largely of the "agency" approach. Some are more toward the "proximate cause" theory. With varying levels of commitment to the idea.

Arizona is perhaps the most clear-cut in its adoption of proximate cause. Their statute is quite explicit.
Under this jurisdiction the burglar who fled would most definitely be guilty of felony murder.

In most states, maybe not so much.

Here is a good discussion in depth on the subject.

From it you will see that, as tends to be true of many legal issues, there is nothing simple or straightforward about the application or interpretation of these laws in many states. And certainly nothing consistent across the various states.

Thanks for the additional info. I was more or less shooting from the hip.


Quote:
In the introduction to this article we were introduced to the facts of the Sophophone case ... Sophophone was caught by police and sat in handcuffs in the back of a police car while one of his accomplices, Sysoumphone, resisting arrest, shot at the arresting officer. The police officer returned fire and shot and killed Sysoumphone.

And Sousaphone? What of poor Sousaphone?
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Old 8th April 2018, 11:00 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Thanks for the additional info. I was more or less shooting from the hip.





And Sousaphone? What of poor Sousaphone?
Just an instrument of fate!!!!!
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Old 9th April 2018, 11:57 AM   #375
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Don't tell Baron, but it turns out the dead burglar, did come from the 'traveller community':

From the DM:


Quote:
A traveller friend of a burglar stabbed to death by his victim has warned his friends and family 'won't rest until they get revenge'.

The man, who once beat career criminal Henry Vincent, 37, in a bare knuckle fight, told MailOnline his relatives are seeking revenge after Richard Osborn-Brooks, 78, 'killed one of their own'.

The chilling warning came as a shrine was built in memory of Vincent opposite the pensioner's home in Hither Green, south London, which has sparked fury among residents.
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Old 9th April 2018, 12:05 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Don't tell Baron, but it turns out the dead burglar, did come from the 'traveller community':

From the DM:
Are you sure they didn't steal that article from The Onion?
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Old 9th April 2018, 12:08 PM   #377
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Quote:
The traveller who knew Vincent told MailOnline: 'I know that Henry Vincent would have killed the pensioner first if he could have got away with it, but they will act like he's the victim in all of this,' he said.
Quote:
They won't get over a death of one of their own and they won't rest until they get their revenge... And when I say revenge, I mean they'll go armed with whatever they've got – guns, knives, anything that they can lay their hands on.'
Yep, that sounds like our poor hounded traveller community all right.

Beggars belief that the the police allow those pikeys to set up a shrine on the fence outside the crime scene (and by crime I mean burglary). That's part of the reason why they cause so much trouble in the civilised community - the police will run a mile rather than challenge their behaviour.
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:08 PM   #378
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Details of the accomplice released.
Police are looking for a man called Billy Jeeves a white guy with a beard.

Not a black guy as claimed by witnesses and tabloids.

His burned out van has been found

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43704102
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:10 PM   #379
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Quote:
a man called Billy Jeeves
So he is a butler.
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:11 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yep, that sounds like our poor hounded traveller community all right.

Beggars belief that the the police allow those pikeys to set up a shrine on the fence outside the crime scene (and by crime I mean burglary). That's part of the reason why they cause so much trouble in the civilised community - the police will run a mile rather than challenge their behaviour.
I don't think flowers on a fence are a police matter.
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:13 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Details of the accomplice released.
Police are looking for a man called Billy Jeeves a white guy with a beard.

Not a black guy as claimed by witnesses and tabloids.

His burned out van has been found

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43704102
Jeeves will turn up 2 months from now in the Thames wearing a pair of concrete galoshes!
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:14 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
So he is a butler.

But he's friends with Jimmy Fingers.
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:19 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I don't think flowers on a fence are a police matter.
So if a crowd hung litter on your fence who would you call? Ghostbusters?
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:40 PM   #384
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Pushing it to see the old dude move back into his house for long I think

It's got only a matter of time till the family comes a knocking, or a molotov written all over it
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:45 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Pushing it to see the old dude move back into his house for long I think

It's got only a matter of time till the family comes a knocking, or a molotov written all over it
And that behavior should be allowed?
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Old 9th April 2018, 01:56 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
And that behavior should be allowed?
Of course not, but that is kind of irrelevant

The cops can't be standing outside 24/7
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:06 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Of course not, but that is kind of irrelevant

The cops can't be standing outside 24/7
They managed to stand outside the Ecuadorian Embassy 24/7
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:10 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Of course not, but that is kind of irrelevant

The cops can't be standing outside 24/7
Beaten to it. They can find resource to stand in the street outside an embassy for years, and are able to spend £5 million and several hundred man years effort investigating people listening to celebrities' voice messages, so I would hope they can spare a couple of cops to protect the life on an elderly couple targeted by scumbags.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:14 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Nearly all the states in the U.S. have some form of a felony murder statute. Most tend to be largely of the "agency" approach. Some are more toward the "proximate cause" theory. With varying levels of commitment to the idea.

Arizona is perhaps the most clear-cut in its adoption of proximate cause. Their statute is quite explicit.

Under this jurisdiction the burglar who fled would most definitely be guilty of felony murder.

In most states, maybe not so much.

A recent case from Alabama: In the US, you don't have to kill to be a murderer

Quote:
After police killed a burglary suspect in a shootout, the officer was not charged - instead a teenage boy who did not fire the gun has been found guilty of his murder. How do accomplice liability laws work?
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:15 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
That's absurd, even by my standards.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:18 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yep, that sounds like our poor hounded traveller community all right.

Beggars belief that the the police allow those pikeys to set up a shrine on the fence outside the crime scene (and by crime I mean burglary). That's part of the reason why they cause so much trouble in the civilised community - the police will run a mile rather than challenge their behaviour.
Please don't use that term. It is really offensive.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:21 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
That's absurd, even by my standards.
No offense, but though you are free to believe that, the law has a reason and I mentioned the major part/reason for it some back from here. You may find it absurd. I like it personally.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:22 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Please don't use that term. It is really offensive.
Only to Pikeys
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:25 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
That's absurd, even by my standards.
I dunno, if you knowingly assist an illegal activity and something bad happens, then you are held responsible. Seems reasonable.

I notice the bbc used a bleeding heart example of: "For example, if a victim has a heart attack and dies while being robbed, the perpetrator can be charged with murder even if he had no intent to kill."
So? If you commit a crime and someone dies who probably otherwise wouldn't have, you get held responsible. That's fair.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:25 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Please don't use that term. It is really offensive.
Agreed, but if a group is making a shrine for a thief and potential killer I tend to be very not supportive of the group specifically doing it.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:26 PM   #396
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And if they try to get revenge for the death of a criminal I lose all interest in what the police do about it.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:29 PM   #397
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One take on the word's origins is that it was coined from the word 'pike', meaning road, because they used to camp beside the highway. I don't personally buy that explanation and prefer the alternative; that 'pikey' derives from pikka, a 13th/14th century verb meaning 'to steal'. We had their measure, even then.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:30 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Agreed, but if a group is making a shrine for a thief and potential killer I tend to be very not supportive of the group specifically doing it.

The dead burglar who met his ignominious end behaved disgracefully in life, but ultimately he is still someone's dad, son, brother, nephew, cousin, mate and of course they are entitled to express their condolences by leaving flowers, etc. Why the tabloids want to photograph it is simply to whip up base emotions in people like Baron.

There really is no need for racist language.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:34 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I dunno, if you knowingly assist an illegal activity and something bad happens, then you are held responsible. Seems reasonable.

I notice the bbc used a bleeding heart example of: "For example, if a victim has a heart attack and dies while being robbed, the perpetrator can be charged with murder even if he had no intent to kill."
So? If you commit a crime and someone dies who probably otherwise wouldn't have, you get held responsible. That's fair.
In your example that's fair enough. But a cop shooting a burglar and the accomplice being found guilty of murder? That's taking it too far. Would a shoplifter be guilty of murder if his mate got shot by the police, or was stabbed by the store owner? Would a passenger be guilty of murder if the cop shot the driver for speeding off after a traffic stop? Murder as in wilfully causing a death or being reckless to whether death results is fine, but charging someone with murder just because something bad happened is ridiculous.
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Old 9th April 2018, 02:36 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The dead burglar who met his ignominious end behaved disgracefully in life, but ultimately he is still someone's dad, son, brother, nephew, cousin, mate and of course they are entitled to express their condolences by leaving flowers, etc. Why the tabloids want to photograph it is simply to whip up base emotions in people like Baron.

There really is no need for racist language.
It's not racist at all. I use 'pikeys' to refer to Irish travellers. Not all Irish people, not Roma travellers, not Romanians, just Irish travellers. And it's a mild term, because they should be called out for what they are; scum.
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