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Old 16th April 2018, 06:03 PM   #641
shuize
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
But you are only assuming the burglar threatened him, or that there was a scuffle and the burglar ended up worse.

You've stated above that merely thinking about the possibility a screwdriver used as a weapon makes you ill. Yet you cannot bring yourself to put yourself in the shoes of a 78-year-old pensioner woken in the middle of the night by someone in his home carrying such an object.

If someone breaks into a home at night carrying a weapon, it is perfectly reasonable to view them as a threat regardless of how the burglar actually intended to use the weapon. The act of breaking into the house with the weapon is the threat.
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Old 16th April 2018, 07:56 PM   #642
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It's quite funny that if this happened in the US going by the US teenager done for murder after cop kills his mate thread, the dead dude's fellow robber who got away would presumably get done for murder.
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:00 PM   #643
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It's quite funny that if this happened in the US going by the US teenager done for murder after cop kills his mate thread, the dead dude's fellow robber who got away would presumably get done for murder.
The 1980s called. They want that word back.....
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Old 16th April 2018, 08:05 PM   #644
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The 1980s called. They want that word back.....
The 2018s called back.

They said to tell the 1980s to pull their head in as the first use of "dude" is found in the 1500s
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Old 17th April 2018, 02:17 AM   #645
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So the people who claimed the old boy should never have been arrested and held whilst police investigated are the ones being fair? I see.


I have friend, who when he were t'young lad, kicked his football through the family lounge window breaking the glass. His father who was quite short-tempered, got a knife and thrust it through the offending ball thereby deflating it.

Would that be an example of a threatening offensive weapon, and if my friend had grabbed the knife from him and stabbed him, then that is OK according to CPS guidelines?
The possession of the knife in the first place by the father, in his own house was not illegal. Puncturing the ball, which is damaging his own property is not illegal. Your friend grabbing the knife and in a fit of anger murdering his father is illegal.
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Old 17th April 2018, 02:25 AM   #646
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
But you are only assuming the burglar threatened him, or that there was a scuffle and the burglar ended up worse. The second burglar AIUI was the getaway driver and may have been waiting outside.

If there was only the burglar and the 78-year old pensioner there, we only have the word of the pensioner.

Yes, now the police and CPS have said there is no case against him. This could be that:

- there is not enough evidence to bring a charge.
- the evidence proves the pensioner on balance to be innocent.
- it was six of one, half a dozen of the other. The burglar was in the wrong, so misadventure.
- in an ensuing scuffle the burglar suffered a fatal death by falling on a knife, so accidental.

The police are satisfied it was not manslaughter or murder.

However, it doesn't prove the burglar threatened or attacked anyone.
That the pensioner had injuries, immediately called the police and told them what had happened and the knife wound to the burglar was not in his back, is supporting evidence that the pensioner's version of events is credible and truthful and he was threatened.

There may also be other evidence we don't know about, from the pensioners wife, and damage/signs of a scuffle inside the house which also supports his version that he was threatened and attacked.

The law of self defence does not require someone to be actually attacked. A pre-emptive strike in self defence is allowed. A person does not have to wait for the attack to start before they can defend themself.

Being in your own home allows enhanced self defence, which means the mere presence of the burglar is threatening and since the pensioner does not have to wait to be attacked, he can just strike out with the knife if confronted.
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Old 17th April 2018, 02:44 AM   #647
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
.......No, I don't buy it.......
Just for the sake of the discussion, Vixen, and without prejudicing your position, can we assume for a second that the events were exactly as they are being described in all of the press and police statements etc. Assume that a pensioner was disturbed in his house at night by two burglars, at least one armed, and that he was threatened and held against his will in the kitchen. Accept for the sake of this discussion that the other burglar was upstairs searching for stuff worth stealing. OK?

Given that scenario, do you accept that the pensioner's actions as described were acceptable and lawful? Do you further accept that the burglars' actions were unacceptable and unlawful?
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Last edited by MikeG; 17th April 2018 at 02:46 AM.
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Old 17th April 2018, 02:57 AM   #648
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I'm sorry, I don't even open Mail links. What does the article say?
This part of what that Daily Mail article says:

Quote:
Council workers FINALLY tear down vigil to dead burglar six days after it first appeared after family and friends today leave 'you'll be missed' balloons, flowers and placards outside hero OAP's home
Two plain clothed Lewisham Council staff descended on the tributes this evening, placing them in a white van
Around 20 people, all of which women, had left bouquets of flowers at fence opposite house where he died
Women carried balloons saying 'you'll be missed', red heart balloons, and a placard with a picture of Vincent
Comes after Vincent was stabbed to death during botched raid on home of pensioner Richard Osborn-Brooks
By Sarah White In Hither Green and Alexander Robertson and Rod Ardehali For Mailonline
Published: 01:48, 16 April 2018 | Updated: 09:54, 16 April 2018

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Council workers have removed bouquets of flowers and balloons left in memory of dead career criminal Henry Vincent - just hours after his traveller family held vigils and created another shrine to mark his 38th birthday.
Around 20 women had left bouquets on the fence opposite pensioner Richard Osborn-Brooks's home where Vincent, 37, was fatally stabbed.
After six days of tit-for-tat action between the dead man's relatives and local residents unhappy with the placards outside the OAP's home, the council stepped in to remove the shrine in an attempt to 'reduce the impact on the local community.'
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Old 17th April 2018, 06:07 AM   #649
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
But you are only assuming the burglar threatened him, or that there was a scuffle and the burglar ended up worse. The second burglar AIUI was the getaway driver and may have been waiting outside.

If there was only the burglar and the 78-year old pensioner there, we only have the word of the pensioner.

Yes, now the police and CPS have said there is no case against him. This could be that:

- there is not enough evidence to bring a charge.
- the evidence proves the pensioner on balance to be innocent.
- it was six of one, half a dozen of the other. The burglar was in the wrong, so misadventure.
- in an ensuing scuffle the burglar suffered a fatal death by falling on a knife, so accidental.

The police are satisfied it was not manslaughter or murder.

However, it doesn't prove the burglar threatened or attacked anyone.
They don't have to prove that. Read this: https://thesecretbarrister.com/2018/...-self-defence/

Which again draws on the words of Lord Morris in the case of Palmer v R 1971
Quote:
“If there has been an attack so that self defence is reasonably necessary, it will be recognised that a person defending himself cannot weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his defensive action. If the jury thought that that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought necessary, that would be the most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken …”
The initial reports said one man forced the pensioner into the kitchen while the other went upstairs. AIUI his wife was asleep upstairs at the time. I think that's a more than reasonable basis for "unexpected anguish".
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Old 17th April 2018, 06:46 AM   #650
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I was going to quote Lord Morris last night, the same quote is in the information I linked to, but came to the conclusion it would be ignored or misrepresented. I personally think I've had my fill of troll feeding.
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Old 17th April 2018, 07:11 AM   #651
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I rather like David Allen Green's term "zombie facts" which he used to refer to things about the Assange case that are proven false over and over but are still brought up by the same people.
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Old 17th April 2018, 09:23 AM   #652
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
They don't have to prove that. Read this: https://thesecretbarrister.com/2018/...-self-defence/

Which again draws on the words of Lord Morris in the case of Palmer v R 1971


The initial reports said one man forced the pensioner into the kitchen while the other went upstairs. AIUI his wife was asleep upstairs at the time. I think that's a more than reasonable basis for "unexpected anguish".
BUT IF THE SITUATION WAS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THEN WHAT?


WHAT IF THE BURGLAR WAS ACTUALLY A TODDLER AND THE PENSIONER A 29-YEAR OLD MARTIAL ARTIST AND BODYBUILDER WHO RAN ONTO THE STREET TO ATTACK THE BURGLAR WITH A SWORD? EH?
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Old 17th April 2018, 10:16 AM   #653
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
BUT IF THE SITUATION WAS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THEN WHAT?


WHAT IF THE BURGLAR WAS ACTUALLY A TODDLER AND THE PENSIONER A 29-YEAR OLD MARTIAL ARTIST AND BODYBUILDER WHO RAN ONTO THE STREET TO ATTACK THE BURGLAR WITH A SWORD? EH?
No,I don't buy it.
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Old 17th April 2018, 10:17 AM   #654
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Don't blame you.
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Old 17th April 2018, 02:29 PM   #655
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Just for the sake of the discussion, Vixen, and without prejudicing your position, can we assume for a second that the events were exactly as they are being described in all of the press and police statements etc. Assume that a pensioner was disturbed in his house at night by two burglars, at least one armed, and that he was threatened and held against his will in the kitchen. Accept for the sake of this discussion that the other burglar was upstairs searching for stuff worth stealing. OK?

Given that scenario, do you accept that the pensioner's actions as described were acceptable and lawful? Do you further accept that the burglars' actions were unacceptable and unlawful?
I never answer a hypothetical question.

It is the first I've heard that the pensioner was forcibly held prisoner in his kitchen whilst the other burglar went rummaging around upstairs, where the pensioner's dear lady wife was lying in bed.

I'll await the inquest fact-finding, thanks.
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Old 17th April 2018, 02:41 PM   #656
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I never answer a hypothetical question.

It is the first I've heard that the pensioner was forcibly held prisoner in his kitchen whilst the other burglar went rummaging around upstairs, where the pensioner's dear lady wife was lying in bed.

I'll await the inquest fact-finding, thanks.
You never answer a hypothetical question, but ask them to try to work out about a real case?

"What if the some kids had a ball and broke into someone's house - should they be stabbed", was I believe a paraphrase of your post.

Mike's is not a hypothetical but the most likely description of events. It is not certain - however we do know that two burglars broke into the house and one was armed. We do know that the pensioner was bruised in the struggle. We do know that the pensioner stabbed one burglar in the struggle.
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Old 17th April 2018, 03:51 PM   #657
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I never answer a hypothetical question.

It is the first I've heard that the pensioner was forcibly held prisoner in his kitchen whilst the other burglar went rummaging around upstairs, where the pensioner's dear lady wife was lying in bed.

I'll await the inquest fact-finding, thanks.
Then you didn’t read the police statements. Don’t you think you should?
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Old 17th April 2018, 03:56 PM   #658
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Then you didn’t read the police statements. Don’t you think you should?
Why risk facts getting in the way of a perfectly good opinion?

....for a given value of good, anyway.
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Old 17th April 2018, 11:42 PM   #659
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I never answer a hypothetical question.

It is the first I've heard that the pensioner was forcibly held prisoner in his kitchen whilst the other burglar went rummaging around upstairs, where the pensioner's dear lady wife was lying in bed.

I'll await the inquest fact-finding, thanks.
So in the meantime you won't continue arguing the case for the burglar. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Old 18th April 2018, 12:37 AM   #660
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
No,I don't buy it.
Isn't that the whole point of burglary?

Dave
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Old 18th April 2018, 12:44 AM   #661
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Isn't that the whole point of burglary?

Dave
Lol
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Old 18th April 2018, 01:16 AM   #662
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Isn't that the whole point of burglary?
Too soon, dude!
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Old 18th April 2018, 01:39 AM   #663
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Isn't that the whole point of burglary?

Dave
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Old 18th April 2018, 08:08 PM   #664
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
You never answer a hypothetical question, but ask them to try to work out about a real case?

"What if the some kids had a ball and broke into someone's house - should they be stabbed", was I believe a paraphrase of your post.

Mike's is not a hypothetical but the most likely description of events. It is not certain - however we do know that two burglars broke into the house and one was armed. We do know that the pensioner was bruised in the struggle. We do know that the pensioner stabbed one burglar in the struggle.
If coming in armed should be carried out dead.
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Old 19th April 2018, 05:03 AM   #665
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
If coming in armed should be carried out dead.
A guy came into our house with a screwdriver but I let him live because he mended the oven.
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Old 19th April 2018, 07:46 AM   #666
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
A guy came into our house with a screwdriver but I let him live because he mended the oven.
When he was finished did he demand money? Maybe you could have stabbed him anyway.
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Old 19th April 2018, 02:25 PM   #667
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
When he was finished did he demand money? Maybe you could have stabbed him anyway.

He waved an invoice towards me in a manner which might reasonably be considered threatening and offensive. So I chopped his head off.
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Old 19th April 2018, 04:01 PM   #668
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Looks like he's out on bail, due back in court in May.

Unless they convict Osborn-Brooks, this thread is much ado about nothing. It seems reasonable to arrest people with knives and sort it out after the scene is processed.

In the US they wouldn't have arrested the man, and even if they did it's unlikely they would charge him. But if the UK has a different procedure, meh.
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Old 19th April 2018, 09:42 PM   #669
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Looks like he's out on bail, due back in court in May.

Unless they convict Osborn-Brooks, this thread is much ado about nothing. It seems reasonable to arrest people with knives and sort it out after the scene is processed.

In the US they wouldn't have arrested the man, and even if they did it's unlikely they would charge him. But if the UK has a different procedure, meh.
Do you have a link for that, because I think it might have been misreported.

There is an inquest, but my understanding is that it was determined that Osborn-Brooks has no case to answer.
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Old 19th April 2018, 10:13 PM   #670
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Do you have a link for that, because I think it might have been misreported.

There is an inquest, but my understanding is that it was determined that Osborn-Brooks has no case to answer.
Your information might be more current that what I read a couple of hours ago.
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Old 19th April 2018, 11:18 PM   #671
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Charges were dropped two days after the event, so probably about ten pages ago here.
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Old 20th April 2018, 06:28 AM   #672
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If there is not going to be an inquest or even a preliminary court hearing, then yes.

There is no law that says it has to cost millions of pounds with thousands of witnesses.

It can be short and cost effective.
Right
Cheap
Fast.

Perm any two.

You've just chosen 'cheap' and 'fast'. It aint gonna be right.
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Old 20th April 2018, 06:40 AM   #673
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Remember, in law all men are deemed equal.
Sure. That's why all legal advisors charge exactly the same hourly rate.
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Old 20th April 2018, 06:46 AM   #674
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Whoops double posting.
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Old 20th April 2018, 06:47 AM   #675
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Charges were dropped two days after the event, so probably about ten pages ago here.
To be entirely accurate, no charges were ever made.
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Old 20th April 2018, 02:20 PM   #676
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The other burglar has been arrested

Quote:
A 28-year-old man wanted in connection with a failed burglary where an intruder was killed has been arrested, police have said.
The Met Police said Billy Jeeves was found and arrested in Kent on Friday.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-43846203
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Old 20th April 2018, 04:59 PM   #677
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Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
The other burglar has been arrested



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-43846203

It's interesting to see what he's been charged with. Two counts of burglary, theft and possession of drugs or other 'controlled substance'.

Good work by the police finally capturing him, as there are no end of 'traveller' sites he could have been bolting up in.

Quote:
A man suspected of being an accomplice in a burglary in which one of the intruders was stabbed to death earlier this month has been arrested, police have said.

Billy Jeeves, 28, who had been on the run since the incident on Wednesday 4 April, was tracked to northern Kent and arrested on suspicion of two counts of burglary, theft and possession of a controlled substance at about 5.30pm on Friday.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...green-burglary
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Old 21st April 2018, 04:44 AM   #678
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Arrest and charge are not the same thing. Some people were confused on this point earlier in the thread concerning the arrest of the householder.

My guess is that Jeeves will be charged today and kept in custody for court on Monday.
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Old 21st April 2018, 05:45 AM   #679
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Quote:
Bertie Wooster: I can't understand Gussie Fink-Nottle being in London, Jeeves. Till now he's always remained glued to the country, completely surrounded by newts.
Jeeves: Sir?
Bertie Wooster: [speaking to doorman] Morning, Jarvis. [turning again to Jeeves] Newts. You know, Jeeves, those little lizard-y things that charge about in ponds.
Jeeves: Ah, yes, sir. The aquatic members of the family Salamandridae that constitute the genus Molge.
Bertie Wooster: Yes, they're the chaps.
---

Not Jeeves, surely not Jeeves?

Quote:
[doorbell rings]
Bertie Wooster: Was that the doorbell, Jeeves?
Jeeves: It certainly gave that impression, sir.
Bertie Wooster: Who could that be at this time of night?
Jeeves: I shall endeavor to ascertain, sir.
Jeeves: Good Lord, sir, it's the Old Bill -
Old Bill: Mr Jeeves? You are hereby under arrest, charged with suspicion of burglary and theft - and what's that in your hand, a joint? - in possession of a controlled substance. You have the right not to say anything but anything you do say may be used in evidence against you should you wish to use it in evidence...
Bertie Wooster: I say, old man, what the devil is going on?
Jeeves: I can't possibly say, sir.
(with apologies to PG Wodehouse)
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Old 21st April 2018, 06:15 AM   #680
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No, that was Reginald Jeeves.
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