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Old 10th April 2018, 08:59 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Which types would you not use, and why?
I would not use one that creates a copy of me and simultaneously kills the original, because I, the original, don't want to die. Doesn't mean I think HPC is a thing.
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Old 10th April 2018, 09:48 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Any of them that destructively scans me (DaratA). Yes the person (DaratB) recreated at t'other end will feel the same way I did at the time of scan, but he won't be me, DaratA was killed and reduced to a pile of ash!
I am at the other end of the spectrum. I think that both would be me equally.

One instance of me would die so that the other instance could go on to have experiences that would otherwise not be possible. I am fine with that idea.
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:09 AM   #43
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For the solipsistic presentist, entering the quantum teleporter is a no-brainer, even if the quantum teleporter doesn't produce identical clones.

This is because for the solipsistic presentist his notion of spatio-temporality is resolutely empirical and pertains only to the structure of his observations and not to any unverifiable "subject" of experience, which for him is a mere figure of speech rather than a meaningful hypothesis.
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:13 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
I am at the other end of the spectrum. I think that both would be me equally.

One instance of me would die so that the other instance could go on to have experiences that would otherwise not be possible. I am fine with that idea.
What if it could create another you without destroying the first you (aka, "the you" reading this right now)?
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:20 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What if it could create another you without destroying the first you (aka, "the you" reading this right now)?
They would be the same at the moment at creation and then diverge because of different paths.
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:21 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by 8Sime8 View Post
For the solipsistic presentist, entering the quantum teleporter is a no-brainer, even if the quantum teleporter doesn't produce identical clones.

This is because for the solipsistic presentist his notion of spatio-temporality is resolutely empirical and pertains only to the structure of his observations and not to any unverifiable "subject" of experience, which for him is a mere figure of speech rather than a meaningful hypothesis.

Is it possible to be a solipsistic non-presentist?

Also, most people who stand by solipsism only take it a little seriously. I'm "virtually certain" of all sorts of things besides my own existence, just not as much as I am of the fact that I exist.
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:24 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
They would be the same at the moment at creation and then diverge because of different paths.
Even at the moment of creation they would exist at different points in space, though.

That's why I've always felt like "the duplicator" thought experiments violate the nature of how minds exist in spacetime.
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:30 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Even at the moment of creation they would exist at different points in space, though.

That's why I've always felt like "the duplicator" thought experiments violate the nature of how minds exist in spacetime.
You are caught up in "existence". If existence is a process in time, space and other senses, then different space doesn't necessarily mean different senses.
At the time of duplication the time and other senses are the same, hence at the moment they (A and B) are same.

A is A or A = A, yet in time and space when you read A is A time passes so the first A is not the second A, so A is not A. Nice
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:31 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Is it possible to be a solipsistic non-presentist?

Also, most people who stand by solipsism only take it a little seriously. I'm "virtually certain" of all sorts of things besides my own existence, just not as much as I am of the fact that I exist.
Yes, in the sense that solipsism really designates a diverse family of ontological and epistemological positions, where the main thing they have in common is that first-person experiential verification chairs their tribunal of reason, as opposed to third-person testimony.

Originally Posted by 8Sime8 View Post
For the solipsistic presentist, entering the quantum teleporter is a no-brainer, even if the quantum teleporter doesn't produce identical clones.
Actually this is nonsense, since the solipsist might be of the opinion that the outcome of entering a quantum teleporter isn't meaningful to imagine.

Perhaps i should have said that the solipsistic presentist would have no reason to fear quantum teleportation for the same reason he has no metaphysical reason to fear actions that precipitate his own death, yet in both cases he still needs a good reason for bringing about either state.
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:36 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by 8Sime8 View Post
Perhaps i should have said that the solipsistic presentist would have no reason to fear quantum teleportation for the same reason he has no metaphysical reason to fear actions that precipitate his own death, yet in both cases he still needs a good reason for bringing about either state.
Fair enough. It's not so much that I fear being dead, but that I have a survival instinct whether I like it or not.
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:38 AM   #51
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The problem is the killing, not the duplication.
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:38 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
I am at the other end of the spectrum. I think that both would be me equally.

One instance of me would die so that the other instance could go on to have experiences that would otherwise not be possible. I am fine with that idea.
Let's say a mistake happens and for whatever reason jrhowellA survives the scan so we now have JrhowellA and jrhowellB - who owns the house?
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:45 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
You are caught up in "existence". If existence is a process in time, space and other senses, then different space doesn't necessarily mean different senses.
At the time of duplication the time and other senses are the same, hence at the moment they (A and B) are same.

A is A or A = A, yet in time and space when you read A is A time passes so the first A is not the second A, so A is not A. Nice
No, I think of A as just a point traveling through spacetime. A = A as long as A exists.
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:48 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The problem is the killing, not the duplication.
I'd let myself get duplicated, but the duplicate wouldn't be me. There would be two entities that thought they were me, but whichever one was not the duplicate would be the only actual me.
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Old 11th April 2018, 02:50 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
No, I think of A as just a point traveling through spacetime. A = A as long as A exists.
Yes, so me TommyA moves through spacetime and splits into TommyA and TommyB. For all other senses in spacetime than spacetime both A and B are the same. Now spacetime passes and they start to differ.
I don't exist in only spacetime.
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Old 11th April 2018, 03:10 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Yes, so me TommyA moves through spacetime and splits into TommyA and TommyB. For all other senses in spacetime than spacetime both A and B are the same. Now spacetime passes and they start to differ.
I don't exist in only spacetime.

Your perspective, TommyA's, is still TommyA's, though. Not TommyB. That's all I'm saying.
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Old 11th April 2018, 07:47 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Your perspective, TommyA's, is still TommyA's, though. Not TommyB. That's all I'm saying.
What is a "you"?
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Old 11th April 2018, 08:47 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
What is a "you"?
Your consciousness, specifically experiencing a first person perspective.
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:32 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'd let myself get duplicated, but the duplicate wouldn't be me. There would be two entities that thought they were me, but whichever one was not the duplicate would be the only actual me.
I would say that is inaccurate: they both would be you, but no longer a single you.
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:39 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'd let myself get duplicated, but the duplicate wouldn't be me. There would be two entities that thought they were me, but whichever one was not the duplicate would be the only actual me.
*Cough* Hi Jabba *Cough*
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:41 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I would say that is inaccurate: they both would be you, but no longer a single you.
In that hypothetical scenario, I, the me that's typing this, would have one or the other's first person perspective, not both of them. Right?
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:43 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Cough* Hi Jabba *Cough*
Do you think if your brain was scanned and your consciousness replicated/duplicated in a computer, that consciousness in a computer would be you?
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:45 AM   #63
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*Shrugs* Sure.

Two "me's" isn't the existential crisis for me it is for others.

Right now "Me" is a useful concept to have to describe the 190lb meat sack with the 3lb sack of grey matter in its skull that maintains my mental process.

If this thing was replicated exactly I don't exactly get why I would get to be "me" and the other wouldn't.

But again... we've been literally trying to get this concept across to Jabba for 5 years now so...
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:47 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
In that hypothetical scenario, I, the me that's typing this, would have one or the other's first person perspective, not both of them. Right?
Both would be a you, but of course there would be no overlap of perspective.
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:50 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Both would be a you, but of course there would be no overlap of perspective.
I just think my first person perspective is going to "stick" with my physical brain.
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:54 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Shrugs* Sure.

Two "me's" isn't the existential crisis for me it is for others.

Right now "Me" is a useful concept to have to describe the 190lb meat sack with the 3lb sack of grey matter in its skull that maintains my mental process.

If this thing was replicated exactly I don't exactly get why I would get to be "me" and the other wouldn't.

But again... we've been literally trying to get this concept across to Jabba for 5 years now so...
Nobody's talking about an existential crisis. And it's not a matter of "getting to be" in one body/format/whatever or another. If I COULD "get to be" a duplicate I would, if the body or "format" or whatever was a marked improvement.
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Old 11th April 2018, 09:55 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I just think my first person perspective is going to "stick" with my physical brain.
But your copy would think the same thing with the same justification.
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Old 11th April 2018, 10:00 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
But your copy would think the same thing with the same justification.
If the brain/body with memories, cognition, emotions are the same at the duplication they are the same person expect for spacetime being different. Over time they can diverge and become more like identical twins, but for some of their memories and so on, they are the same.
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Old 11th April 2018, 10:01 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
But your copy would think the same thing with the same justification.
Of course.

I can imagine a scenario where, from my perspective, I was setting myself up in a blue room to get duplicated, and I was told my duplicate will awaken in a yellow room, and I "come to" in a yellow room myself, and I can meet "the other me" who never left the blue room. In that situation, I'd be the duplicate, and my existence actually started with "coming to" in the yellow room. It would be disturbing, but true that I was "just" a duplicate.
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Old 11th April 2018, 10:02 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
If the brain/body with memories, cognition, emotions are the same at the duplication they are the same person expect for spacetime being different. Over time they can diverge and become more like identical twins, but for some of their memories and so on, they are the same.
Yeah, spacetime is the kicker there.
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Old 11th April 2018, 10:12 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Yeah, spacetime is the kicker there.
If you mean that one(A) retain the before duplication self and the other (B) not, then no. There is no self without being caused by a brain. And since what causes the self is not spacetime as such but the brain, at the time of the duplication you have 2 versions of the self separated in spacetime, but the same self because the brains are same for memories, cognition and so on.
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Old 11th April 2018, 10:20 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
If you mean that one(A) retain the before duplication self and the other (B) not, then no. There is no self without being caused by a brain. And since what causes the self is not spacetime as such but the brain, at the time of the duplication you have 2 versions of the self separated in spacetime, but the same self because the brains are same for memories, cognition and so on.
The self would be duplicated, but the first person perspective you have now would stick with the physical body you're in now.

Hell, for all we know, aliens are making copies of us and sticking the copies on distant planets all the time and we here are none the wiser. Or maybe during the night last night earth was destroyed and we were cloned and stuck in a simulation and we're the clones and don't know it, and the real versions of us are dead. lol
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Old 11th April 2018, 10:27 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The self would be duplicated, but the first person perspective you have now would stick with the physical body you're in now.

Hell, for all we know, aliens are making copies of us and sticking the copies on distant planets all the time and we here are none the wiser. Or maybe during the night last night earth was destroyed and we were cloned and stuck in a simulation and we're the clones and don't know it, and the real versions of us are dead. lol
You could also be a Boltzmann brain.
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Old 11th April 2018, 10:30 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
You could also be a Boltzmann brain.
I guess...I really don't know enough about physics to say either way.
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Old 11th April 2018, 11:08 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Of course.

I can imagine a scenario where, from my perspective, I was setting myself up in a blue room to get duplicated, and I was told my duplicate will awaken in a yellow room, and I "come to" in a yellow room myself, and I can meet "the other me" who never left the blue room. In that situation, I'd be the duplicate, and my existence actually started with "coming to" in the yellow room. It would be disturbing, but true that I was "just" a duplicate.
But if you are sedated as part of the scan and the 'original' and 'clone' you are switched so that clone-you wakes up in the blue room and original-you wakes up in the yellow room...
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Old 11th April 2018, 11:12 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The more I'm exposed to the "hard problems" of philosophy, the more I'm inclined to think that something doesn't become a problem until it needs to be solved.

Nothing about the "hard problem" of consciousness in philosophy suggests to me that there's something there that needs to be solved.

The hard problem of earthquakes, on the other hand, is a real problem.

The hard problem of consciousness is right up there with the hard problem of Star Wars hyperdrive, in terms of things that are interesting to a certain kind of nerd, but pose no real problem, nor offer any practical result.
Oh, how I agree!

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Old 11th April 2018, 11:15 AM   #77
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I realize I'm late here, but ...

Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Would you go through a transporter, or do you think it's suicide?
I would not go through the first transporter. Just as I wouldn't test the first parachute. But an established, tested technology? Sure!

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Old 11th April 2018, 11:16 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It's kind of interesting, though, isn't it? And the hard problem does have practical applications. How are we going to treat AI when it reaches our level?
I expect we'll have to negotiate that with the AI. Let's hope it's grateful for our creating it.

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Old 11th April 2018, 11:16 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
But if you are sedated as part of the scan and the 'original' and 'clone' you are switched so that clone-you wakes up in the blue room and original-you wakes up in the yellow room...
That would make an interesting sci fi mystery plot only if the original had to be sedated for the scan. Or thought they would have to be.
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Old 11th April 2018, 11:22 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Because they're similar creatures to us. AI is a whole nother thing.
Of course it is. For one thing it is science fiction for now. So how can we know how we will interact with it?

Quote:
It we encounter biological entities, we'll assume they're conscious. If we encounter machine intelligences who assure us they're conscious, we'll wonder.
Of course we will wonder. Till they can convince us. So what?

Quote:
We have experience dealing with conscious biological beings. We have no experience dealing with conscious machines.
There has been plenty of things we had no experience dealing with. Generally, we eventually coped.

Really, what exactly is your point?

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