ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 12th April 2018, 08:10 PM   #121
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,114
Wow, really, an even smaller number that might as well be zero.
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
RecoveringYuppy is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 08:11 PM   #122
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,441
Are you still insisting that I might have made up naturalistic dualism?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 08:12 PM   #123
jrhowell
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 359
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
So, suppose you're in a blue room, and I copy you and send the copy into a yellow room, what color walls do you see?

ETA: a first person POV is not a soul.
One instance of me sees a blue room and the other instance of me sees a yellow room.
jrhowell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 08:13 PM   #124
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,441
Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
One instance of me sees a blue room and the other instance of me sees a yellow room.
What about YOU? What color do YOU see in this thought experiment?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 08:49 PM   #125
jrhowell
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 359
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
What about YOU? What color do YOU see in this thought experiment?
I answered the question already. There will be two instances of me, each seeing a different color room.

Thinking that only one of them is the one true ME is a mistake.

Last edited by jrhowell; 12th April 2018 at 09:02 PM.
jrhowell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 09:09 PM   #126
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,656
Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
I answered the question already. There will be two instances of me, each seeing a different color room.

Thinking that only one of them is the one true ME is a mistake.
So then there is a third you that gets all the input telepathically from the other two or are The You and The Copy connected telepathically?
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 09:20 PM   #127
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,656
Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
Two distinct individuals would have equal claim to call themselves jrhowell based on their shared history.
Do they? I doubt a court would agree. The Copy's case would be weaker as they did not exist before being copied. They two individuals do not share a history, The Copy co-oped your history.
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 09:26 PM   #128
jrhowell
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 359
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
So then there is a third you that gets all the input telepathically from the other two or are The You and The Copy connected telepathically?
No and no. Why would you think that?

After the copy is made there would be two distinct instances of jrhowell sharing the same history, but not connected in any other way going forward.
jrhowell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 09:28 PM   #129
jrhowell
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 359
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Do they? I doubt a court would agree. The Copy's case would be weaker as they did not exist before being copied. They two individuals do not share a history, The Copy co-oped your history.
If the process works properly it might be impossible to prove which is the original and which is the copy after the fact.
jrhowell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 09:30 PM   #130
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,441
Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
I answered the question already. There will be two instances of me, each seeing a different color room.

Thinking that only one of them is the one true ME is a mistake.
There would be you and a clone/twin/copy/duplicate.
Which one is where?

You - the singular instance of you which has a single first person perspective - will be one place or the other.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 09:33 PM   #131
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,441
Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
If the process works properly it might be impossible to prove which is the original and which is the copy after the fact.
The one in the hi-tech scan & copy room would have a pretty strong case!
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 09:45 PM   #132
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,656
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
OK. Just tell me where the boundary is then.
It would seem to me that the boundary is your physical body. No outside force affects you until it contacts your physical body. You don't see anything until light from it strikes your eyes. You don't hear anything until sound waves strike your ears. You don't feel anything until the sensation strikes receptors in your skin, etc.

An outside observer might not be able to tell but you are separate from your environment. A fire a few feet away maybe smaller than one a mile away but you will react to the one closer while ignoring the distant one. Obviously there is some sort of boundary.

Quote:
Will this boundary exclude parasites
Yes.

Quote:
infectious, bacteria
Quote:
gut bacteria
Yes.

Quote:
the food in your mouth?
Yes

The fact that you identify these things demonstrates that they are separate from me although they maybe parasitically attached to me.

Quote:
Will I be able to find a way to cross this boundary and get from something that is you to something that isn't you?
Yes.

Quote:
When does the water vapor and co2 you exhale transition from you to not you?
When it crosses the boundary of my physical body? That physical boundary defines the limit of where I can use elements of my environment. I cannot use just any water that exists in my environment. The only water available is the water that crosses my boundary, same with oxygen. If there were no boundary I would have access to all water and oxygen. The only light I can use is the light that crosses my boundary. I use it to make vitamin D through my skin, or to warm myself, or to see what is going on around me but I do not have the ability to use any of the other light in the environment. Obviously there is a boundary between me and the rest of my environment.
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 09:49 PM   #133
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,656
Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
No and no. Why would you think that?

After the copy is made there would be two distinct instances of jrhowell sharing the same history, but not connected in any other way going forward.
So how was this copy made?
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 09:50 PM   #134
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,441
You probably want to keep the bacteria in your gut and on your skin.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 09:55 PM   #135
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,656
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
You probably want to keep the bacteria in your gut and on your skin.
Yes, but does that make it part of ME?
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."

Last edited by qayak; 12th April 2018 at 10:01 PM.
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 10:26 PM   #136
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,441
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Yes, but does that make it part of ME?
When it comes to this replication thought experiment, it would be technology, so we could choose what to take or leave and the "you-ness" would be a pointless philosophical exercise.

So, it is if you want it to be, or isn't if you don't want it to. You can pick your own parameters for something like this.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 11:27 PM   #137
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 80,918
Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
That is a legal, political and what not question. Unless I am using the wrong definitions and if that is the case, then you won't explain the correct definitions. You will only point out, that is not the correct definitions, right, Darat?
To your first part: Wrong thread Tommy.

My question was rather a simple question. To those that now think there are two Darats rather than individual DaratA and DaratB who owns the car?

For me the answer is rather simple and goes back to why I wouldn't use the destructive transporter. DaratA owns the car because we can trace back his time line to when he purchased the car. Tough to be DaratB who can remember buying the car but didn't.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 11:28 PM   #138
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 80,918
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
Zeno proved motion is impossible (or at least incoherent)!!!
He must have been a mad man if he thought that he had proved that.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 11:31 PM   #139
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 80,918
Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Consciousness is hard. Figuring out all of its moving parts is a problem. That still doesn’t account for any sort of qualia.

The “hard problem of consciousness” basically seems to be “consciousness is reaally hard. Therefore: God”
Qualia are the HPC, folk need to find a way of demonstrating they exist independently of the electrochemical and information processing we know the brain and human body does before anyone needs to provide an explanation for them.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 11:33 PM   #140
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 80,918
Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
I answered the question already. There will be two instances of me, each seeing a different color room.

Thinking that only one of them is the one true ME is a mistake.
Which one of you bought the car?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 11:36 PM   #141
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 80,918
Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
If the process works properly it might be impossible to prove which is the original and which is the copy after the fact.
No, at no point in time did either of you share the same physical space so it is always possible to work out which one has a "real" history and which one just thinks it had.

This is why I said it had to be a form of transportation/copying that could work within how we know the world works, otherwise all we are doing is discussing fictional magic spells.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 11:43 PM   #142
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 80,918
I always see a problem of communication in this topic, thought I'd take a second to make sure it isn't happening this time.

I don't think anyone is claiming that there is some part of a person that cant be transported/copied, so there is no soul popping up here.

I don't think anyone is claiming that the original and copy will share a single conciousnes.

Everyone agrees that after the duplication there are two individuals, and their experiences and memories will diverge after the duplication.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th April 2018, 11:48 PM   #143
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,104
Are we really arguing about the possible ambiguities of the word 'you'?

It all depends on your definition.
If you define 'you' as the continuation of your consciousness, both instances will be a version of you, even though you're also two different people from now on.

And if you define 'you' as your original physical body, the copy won't be you, but someone else who just happens to share your past and physical make-up.

The thing is, in the world as we know it, those two definitions denote the exact same thing, because we don't have a magical way of producing perfect copies of people. So we've never needed a word for 'you' that addresses that possibility.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2018, 12:00 AM   #144
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,441
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
DaratA owns the car because we can trace back his time line to when he purchased the car. Tough to be DaratB who can remember buying the car but didn't.
There would be circumstances where being the duplicate would be ok. If nuclear Armageddon had just broken out, and copy & transport to a better place was the closest thing your original could think of as a consolation prize for facing imminent, painful death, discovering that YOU get to be the duplicate would be kind of awesome. Weird, but ok. Sucks for DaratA, in that case. lol
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2018, 12:06 AM   #145
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,441
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Are we really arguing about the possible ambiguities of the word 'you'?

It all depends on your definition.
If you define 'you' as the continuation of your consciousness, both instances will be a version of you, even though you're also two different people from now on.

And if you define 'you' as your original physical body, the copy won't be you, but someone else who just happens to share your past and physical make-up.

The thing is, in the world as we know it, those two definitions denote the exact same thing, because we don't have a magical way of producing perfect copies of people. So we've never needed a word for 'you' that addresses that possibility.
I'm not sure it's so much about the physical body as the point in space, combined with the continuation of consciousness (aka, moving through time, as well).
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2018, 04:09 AM   #146
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 80,918
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
There would be circumstances where being the duplicate would be ok. If nuclear Armageddon had just broken out, and copy & transport to a better place was the closest thing your original could think of as a consolation prize for facing imminent, painful death, discovering that YOU get to be the duplicate would be kind of awesome. Weird, but ok. Sucks for DaratA, in that case. lol
And I truly think if we did develop a cheap and widely available transport technology based on destructive scanning and a recreation we'd soon adopt it, convenience is a very powerful factor in what we will accept and what we won't.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2018, 04:36 AM   #147
8Sime8
Student
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 45
i don't think it is particularly useful to jump in and start philosophising about the quantum teleportation, since most of the philosophical confusions of quantum mechanics are the result of conceptual confusions in relation to classical mechanics.

For example, what is meant by "the same state" in classical mechanics?

Do we have a rigorous notion of "the same", even in our classical concepts?

For example, in digital photography two pictures are considered "the same" if their image pixels are treated identically by a machine.

But which machine?

Don't machines malfunction and make mistakes like humans?

Presumably we mean the "ideal" machine. But where is this "ideal" machine? Does it exist only in the mind? Presumably we mean a machine that is considered to be ideal according to the judgements of a more trustworthy higher authority. e.g, a committee of machine-testing machines.

while committees of machines undoubtedly reduce the rate of errors relative to an individual machine, they nevertheless make mistakes and still cannot reduce uncertainty to zero, for we can never have an infinitely large committee - even in our imagination.

So it must be that our concept of identicality is merely a pragmatic designation, even in the classical sense. We mere *treat* things as being the same according to our purposes and there is nothing more to be said.

And the same could also be said of our more general concepts of "necessity" and "certainty". There aren't unambiguous notions of necessity or certainty, even in our classical concepts.
8Sime8 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2018, 07:55 AM   #148
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 39,015
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I didn't say a single thing about QM and you haven't told me where the boundary is.
Lets preform and experiment, exhale your breath and hold your nose.
-How long can you wait before you allow yourself to breathe?

Have a friend or casual stranger preform the same act.
-Do you sense the the sensations of breathlessness and relieve when they do this?



Even after rereading the series of posts I think my question still applies, I could be wrong.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar

Last edited by Dancing David; 13th April 2018 at 08:00 AM.
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2018, 07:57 AM   #149
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 39,015
Originally Posted by LarryS View Post
Yes, we can say the human body is a macroscopic object, but we're not talking about the human body, we are discussing the copy and transport of a person.
I am not. I am talking about the person, the transporter issue is just part of the thread.
I guess I missed the lack of connection, I have been reading this.
Sorry

ETA: Even after rereading the series of posts I think my question still applies, I could be wrong.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar

Last edited by Dancing David; 13th April 2018 at 08:00 AM.
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2018, 07:58 AM   #150
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 39,015
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Well, "The hard problem doesn't exist" and "consciousness is solved" are basically atheist woo.
I am not saying that it doesn't exist but asked why it is classified differently that liver function or earthquakes?


ETA: to add essential not
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar

Last edited by Dancing David; 13th April 2018 at 08:01 AM.
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2018, 08:03 AM   #151
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Wow, really, an even smaller number that might as well be zero.
Is that like a virtual zero?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2018, 08:16 AM   #152
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,114
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
I am not saying that it doesn't exist but asked why it is classified differently that liver function or earthquakes?


ETA: to add essential not
Do livers or Earthquakes experience conscious thought? What subjective experience is there is an earthquake or liver function?

Basically, WTF are you thinking? This is a "one of those things is not like the other" moment.
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
RecoveringYuppy is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2018, 08:28 AM   #153
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 80,918
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Well, "The hard problem doesn't exist" and "consciousness is solved" are basically atheist woo.
By the way forgot to ask - what is "atheist" about not thinking the HPC exists? How is it tied into any form of atheism? Really not seeing the connection.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2018, 08:29 AM   #154
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 80,918
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Do livers or Earthquakes experience conscious thought? What subjective experience is there is an earthquake or liver function?

Basically, WTF are you thinking? This is a "one of those things is not like the other" moment.
Without a liver you wouldn't experience conscious thought for very long!
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2018, 08:40 AM   #155
qayak
Penultimate Amazing
 
qayak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,656
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Are we really arguing about the possible ambiguities of the word 'you'?

It all depends on your definition.
If you define 'you' as the continuation of your consciousness, both instances will be a version of you, even though you're also two different people from now on.

And if you define 'you' as your original physical body, the copy won't be you, but someone else who just happens to share your past and physical make-up.

The thing is, in the world as we know it, those two definitions denote the exact same thing, because we don't have a magical way of producing perfect copies of people. So we've never needed a word for 'you' that addresses that possibility.
I am not sure I agree. Let's look at this from a slightly different angle. Suppose the ability to do transplants is perfected so we can transplant any, or any combination of, human part(s). There are two scenarios:

1) You have a diseased body that needs replacing or you will die. Your brain is very healthy.

2) You have a diseased brain that needs replacing or you will die. Your body is very healthy.

So the transplants are done. In the first scenario your entire body is replaced. In the second scenario your entire brain is replaced.

The questions:

Is it still "you" in scenario 1? In scenario 2?

Is it more "you" in one scenario than in the other?

Is scenario 2 were you just "the parts" for someone else? How about in scenario 1?

(In my view, you only survive in scenario 1. Scenario 2 means the survival of someone else.)
__________________
"How long you live, how high you fly
The smiles you'll give, and tears you'll cry
And all you touch, and all you see
Is all your life will ever be."
qayak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2018, 10:06 AM   #156
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,114
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
By the way forgot to ask - what is "atheist" about not thinking the HPC exists? How is it tied into any form of atheism? Really not seeing the connection.
It's commonly claimed by atheists and skeptics that "consciousness is well understood" or the like to quash theist claims about the soul. It's a vast overstatement of the facts. Pointless one too, IMO, since there isn't any evidence in favor of souls anyway.
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
RecoveringYuppy is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2018, 10:24 AM   #157
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 39,015
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Do livers or Earthquakes experience conscious thought? What subjective experience is there is an earthquake or liver function?

Basically, WTF are you thinking? This is a "one of those things is not like the other" moment.
Basically WTF are you thinking?

What is so different about consciousness that it gets a whole special category?

This is you asserting a difference, can you delineate it in a fashion that is actually different than liver function or earthquake prediction?

(Or is there just something special about consciousness? )
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2018, 10:28 AM   #158
kellyb
Philosopher
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,441
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Basically WTF are you thinking?

What is so different about consciousness that it gets a whole special category?

This is you asserting a difference, can you delineate it in a fashion that is actually different than liver function or earthquake prediction?

(Or is there just something special about consciousness? )
Because our consciousness is the core of our existence.

Do you have any opinions about the likelihood of strong AI being possible, or distinguishing strong AI from weak AI?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2018, 10:49 AM   #159
LarryS
Muse
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 826
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Basically WTF are you thinking?

What is so different about consciousness that it gets a whole special category?

This is you asserting a difference, can you delineate it in a fashion that is actually different than liver function or earthquake prediction?

(Or is there just something special about consciousness? )
What makes the problem of consciousness 'hard' is that we haven't made any progress in explaining it in the last thousand years or so. Maybe our hunch it's the brain is stronger - but the question how matter becomes consciousness is no further along.
LarryS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th April 2018, 10:50 AM   #160
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,114
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Basically WTF are you thinking?

What is so different about consciousness that it gets a whole special category?

This is you asserting a difference, can you delineate it in a fashion that is actually different than liver function or earthquake prediction?

(Or is there just something special about consciousness? )
I just did delineate the difference. Subjective thought. What subjective experiences/thoughts do earthquakes and livers have?
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
RecoveringYuppy is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:09 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.